MR KOOPEDI: He is ready to be sworn in, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
CHAKIE EDISON MATHEBE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mathebe, I'm referring you to page 15 of the bundle of documents before this Honourable Committee and the document appearing on page 15, is this your application form?
MR MATHEBE: That's correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now at the back of this document on page 20 of the bundle, there is a signature on this document, is this your signature?
MR MATHEBE: That's correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now you've heard the evidence given by the two applicants before you.
MR MATHEBE: Yes, I did.
MR KOOPEDI: Now is there anything you would want to add to the evidence they have given and in particular enlightening this Honourable Committee about who you are, when did you join the ANC?
MR MATHEBE
"I am Chakie Edison Mathebe. I joined MK in 1987. I was trained internally. I was trained by Comrade Jerome Maake. I was also involved in identifying the targets within our unit. Most of the time I would be the driver during the time of the operations. Most of the time, I was the driver, but I'm aware of these operations."
MR KOOPEDI: Now the incident that happened in Tsantsabela, the one that involves Mr Mishi or Mnisi, would this be one of the incidents where you were driving?
MR MATHEBE: At that time I was not the driver, but I was in another car when we were going to Tsantsabela.
MR KOOPEDI: The incident that involved the Fouries, what do you know about that incident and in particular and referring to what you did personally? I believe the Committee is aware of the fact that the unit had discussed about this spot, but I want you to specifically enlighten this Honourable Committee as to your role, what you did on that day, on that evening.
MR MATHEBE: My task was to drive like they already explained. That we identified that place at the T-junction as the ambush spot, so I dropped the comrades there and I went with the car and waited for them at a distance, not far away from that spot and then after that operation, I came back and collected them and we went away.
MR KOOPEDI: Now when you say you collected them, where did you collect them?
MR MATHEBE: I came and collected them at that T-junction and I drove towards Mtwane.
MR KOOPEDI: I think it should be Mtwana, M-T-W-A-N-A.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you know when to collect them? You say you went to collect them.
MR MATHEBE: I could hear the sound of AK47 and I became aware that they would delay to move from that spot to where I was waiting for them, so I decided to go and collect them immediately.
MR KOOPEDI: Now after you heard these shots, you say you proceeded and collected them. Is there any other thing that you did, that is in relation to this operation?
MR MATHEBE: My task was just to drive them after the operation. Because of the traffic at that area, I realised that they will struggle to come to the place where I waited for them, so I rushed to collect them.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Perhaps let's move away from this incident. The incident at Kwaggafontein police station, is there any role that you played?
MR MALAN: Just before you proceed there. Were you involved in the reconnaissance of that spot at the T-junction?
MR MATHEBE: I was not involved.
MR MALAN: Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you. The incident at Kwaggafontein, what was your involvement there?
MR MATHEBE: We went, there was material that has already been explained, that is the limpet mines with three foot pot, with a flap, like they have already explained about that. Because it was a big pot, so we would help each other to carry it from the car.
MR KOOPEDI: Now regard being had to the brief evidence you've just given and the evidence given in particular by the first applicant, your Commander, Jerome Maake, do you think that on your part you have told this Honourable Committee the whole truth in as far as the activities of your unit were concerned?
MR MATHEBE: I think I have told the truth, unless maybe I have forgotten something, but I think I have told them the truth.
MR KOOPEDI: Now were you paid, or did you receive any personal gain for having involved yourself in these activities?
MR MATHEBE: As people who were fighting for liberation, we knew what we were fighting for. We were not expecting any reward, our only reward was liberation.
MR KOOPEDI: Now what would have been then the political objective?
MR MATHEBE: They are all self-explanatory because the police were attacking people on many occasions, together with the Mbokhoto Vigilante Group, even at Mothethe, Gobokwane and many other areas in the then KwaNdebele Homeland, so we needed to protect the people in those areas. It was a political issue because people were being killed and they had to be protected.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that is the evidence-in-chief for the applicant, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Engelbrecht, do you have any questions you would like to ask the witness?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ENGELBRECHT: Sir, were you involved in the planning of the incident of the Fouries?
CHAIRPERSON: When you say the police, we'll call it the Fourie incident, the T-junction. Were you involved in the planning of the operation that took place at the T-junction in which Lieut Fourie and his son were shot?
MR MATHEBE: What I do not understand is whether I was involved when we made the planning concerning the Fouries, because at that time we were not focusing on the Fourie family.
CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Engelbrecht wants to know is were you involved - were you present when the decision was taken to conduct an operation at that particular T-junction?
MR MATHEBE: Concerning the planning at that T-junction ambush, I was present.
MR ENGELBRECHT: Sir, can you relate to the Commission what the other people forgot, on who made the proposal, when was it made, where was it done, please?
MR MATHEBE: I don't remember who came up with this suggestion in the unit, but what I remember is that the police, the KwaNdebele police together with the South African police were driving fast cars, faster than our cars, so we discussed about this and we decided that we have to ambush them and in our discussions we discussed about that place at thee T-junction because that is a place where the police from Kwagga and kwaMshlanga were meeting, so we agreed that could be the appropriate spot where we could ambush them.
MR ENGELBRECHT: How long before the operation occurred did you do the planning?
MR MATHEBE: Because this happened a long time ago, I would be lying if I talk about specific day or specific days before the operation, I really don't remember.
CHAIRPERSON: If you could perhaps give us an approximation then, we don't need to know the exact number of days or hours before, but if you could give us an approximation, more or less how long before the carrying out of the attack, did the decision-making process take place?
MR MATHEBE: I think it can be between two to three weeks, although I am not sure about that.
MR ENGELBRECHT: And who made the proposal?
MR MALAN: Just before you proceed. You've heard that Mr Maake responding to a question of mine said that it could be, that it was possible that planning and decision was only taken on the day of the incident. Would you dispute that as a possibility?
MR MATHEBE: I would not dispute that because I am not sure. Like I have said, I don't have a clear recollection as to when this decision was taken.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
MR ENGELBRECHT: Can you recall who made the proposal, Sir?
MR MATHEBE: I do not remember, Sir.
MR ENGELBRECHT: To lean on a question posed by the presiding Panel earlier on, how long would you have been waiting there, Sir, on that particular evening? When would you have left, or not left?
MR MATHEBE: We waited there, but that could not be an hour, it can be around 45 minutes. It could not be a long time, because that is the place frequented by the police.
MR ENGELBRECHT: What I'm referring to, Sir, is not what was the actual time spent waiting for the operation to come off, but what were your instructions? How long did you have to wait, in view of your instructions, your operational instructions on that particular evening?
MR MATHEBE: In my instructions, I was not given the time, we agreed as a unit that I will wait for them at a specific place. It's me who took the initiative to move from the spot where I was to go and collect them because I realised that there was too much traffic there, so I didn't want them to be caught by the police who were coming for reinforcement. That is why I decided to go there and collect them.
MR ENGELBRECHT: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ENGELBRECHT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions thank you Honourable Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, any re-examination?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-exam thanks Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATOIN BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sandi any questions?
ADV SANDI: No questions, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?
MR MALAN: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Just for clarity purposes, Mr Mathebe, were you involved in the decision-making process of all the incidents that have been referred to this morning, that is the one involving Mr Mnisi, the limpet mine that didn't go off at the police station, the Kwaggafontein one, the attack on the Dennilton police station where it was shot at, the incident at the T-junction, were you involved in the decision-making process of all of those incidents, or only some of them?
MR MATHEBE: Yes, I did.
CHAIRPERSON: All of them?
MR MATHEBE: Yes, in all of them.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you the driver in which ones? You were the drive in the T-junction incident, you went to Kwaggafontein and helped with the pot?
MR MATHEBE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: The Dennilton police station where the shooting took place, were you the driver?
MR MATHEBE: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: The one with the limpet mine that didn't go off, where the mechanism didn't, the timing mechanism referred to by Mr Maake, did you assist in taking the operatives there, or the material there?
MR MATHEBE: In this operation that involved the limpet mine, I'm the person who took that limpet mine there and I was the person who committed him on Monday, as we agreed as a command structure, so I would say that is the operation in which I was physically involved.
CHAIRPERSON: And the one involving Mr Elvis Mnisi? What did you do in that one, if anything besides being involved in the decision-making?
MR MATHEBE: We heard that this Mr Mnisi, he knew about the abduction of Khala and the members of the community had a suspicion that the abduction was done by Mr Mnisi, so when we went to fetch him, I was there.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were there when you went, I think you said you went in another vehicle, didn't you, you weren't the actual driver?
MR MATHEBE: That's correct. We had a silencer problem, so we didn't enter the village with that car because of the silencer.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now I notice from the documents before me here Mr Mathebe, that Khala's name is spelled in about four different ways. Do you know the correct spelling of it? I've seen it spelled Carla, Khala, Cala, I don't know maybe Mr Koopedi could assist in the spelling because ...(intervention)
MR KOOPEDI: If I may, Chairperson, Khala is in this hall, Chairperson. I inquired from him. It is spelled K-H-A-L-A.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. That was the one that I thought was the correct one, but I just wanted to make sure. Any questions arising from my questions Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: No questions, thanks Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
MR MALAN: Sorry, can I just on this last question. I had the impression and from the question of the Chair too, that in this operation involving Elvis Mnisi, that you went there in two cars. Were you saying that you went in one car, but not your usual car, because you had silencer problems with the usual car? How many vehicles did you travel in?
MR MATHEBE: I think we used two or three cars. I remember a private car and a kombi.
MR MALAN: Thank you, that answers it.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Any questions arising Mr Engelbrecht? Mr Steenkamp?
NO QUESTIONS BY MR ENGELBRECHT
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mathebe, that concludes your evidence. You may stand down now.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I will look to the Committee for direction. I see its cruising on for 13h00. I also know that the evidence to be given by the last applicant is relatively, very short. I would ask the Committee to allow us to lead his evidence. Thanks Chair.
