CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi are you appearing for the applicant?
MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so, Chairperson. I am Brian Koopedi, I am appearing for Col Rapholo in this application.
CHAIRPERSON: And ...
MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, I appear on behalf of Mr Gilau
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just spell that name please, or have I asked you a difficult question?
MS COLERIDGE: No, just it's on my writing pad Chairperson and it's just being used at the moment. It is Mr Gert G-I-L-A-U.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. I take it your client's going to be giving evidence, Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so. He is ready to be sworn in, Chairperson.
JACOB MPASA RAPHOLO: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Col Rapholo, I am showing to you a document from the bundle of documents before this Honourable Committee, from page 4 thereof, until page 10. Is this your application form?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Do you confirm the contents, or rather that you wrote this application form?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes, Sir.
MR KOOPEDI: You will realise, Chairperson, that this has not been commissioned by a Commissioner of Oaths and we will ask that that fault be ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Colonel, do you confirm the contents of the application form to be true and correct?
MR RAPHOLO: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: And Colonel, you are applying for amnesty for some seventeen incidents. Chairperson, this - is it correct that you are applying for amnesty for seventeen incidents?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes, it's like that.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, these incidents appear as charges from page 22 to page 30 of the bundle of documents before you. Now you state in paragraph seven of your application form that you were a member of the African National Congress and Umkhonto weSizwe. When did you become a member of the African National Congress and the MK?
MR RAPHOLO: I joined the ANC and MK in 1985.
MR KOOPEDI: Where did you join the ANC?
MR RAPHOLO: Firstly I went to Botswana and then proceeded to Zambia and Angola.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you receive any military training as a member of MK?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Where did you receive this training?
MR RAPHOLO: I trained in Angola and Yugoslavia.
MR KOOPEDI: Now after you had trained, what did you do? Did you come to South Africa?
MR RAPHOLO: I completed my basic training in 1986 and then I returned to Angola where I was deployed in one of the military establishments as a Commander of the outpost until 1987. I went back to Vienna transit camp, which was in Luanda and then there I served as a member of the staff which was responsible for the administration of the camp or the establishment and again I was appointed to be a Company Commander and subsequently I was appointed a Staff Commander. I was responsible for the movement in and out of the establishment and then that was from 1987 until 1988 when I met the late Chris Hani who suggested that I be given a mission to come into the country.
MR KOOPEDI: Now perhaps let's move to the date of the 7th of August 1988. What happened on this date?
MR RAPHOLO: On the 7th of August we were in Botswana, the Botswana border and the South African border. I was with a group of seven people. We were seven, including myself and then we were heavily armed and then on that evening we infiltrated the RSA with the aim of proceeding further into the central Far North, as it was called during those days. Then upon infiltration, we went through Ellisras District and then we based around Beauty, next to the Palala River.
CHAIRPERSON: What was the name of that place?
MR RAPHOLO: Beauty, In Ellisras. I was the Commander of the unit and then we created a temporary base in the morning of the 8th of August 1988 and then we were surprised by a unit of the then South African Police counter insurgency elements which were checking us. Apparently we were detected during the evening when we infiltrated the RSA and then throughout the morning and the day, the police were tracking - they were looking after our tracks and then it was around 4 o'clock ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Is that in the morning or afternoon now?
MR RAPHOLO: In the afternoon, 16h00 and then I was listening to the news, it was when we heard that the plane of the then President of Botswana was shot in Angola, so always we were listening to news every hour, so while I was listening to news, I heard some movements towards our direction and then I ordered all the men to be on the lookout because it was a movement of a group of people and then during that time, it was winter, and 16h00 during winter is almost dark and then when the police came, one of them spoke in Afrikaans and then he said
"They are here",
meaning that they are here. So I ordered the men to shoot at the police because during that time, there were several units of MK which were killed in the North-East of the country, in the Far North in Alldays and we were the third group and then if we couldn't act or open fire, the police were going to pin us down as the language was known during that time.
CHAIRPERSON: Colonel, were you in the bush then, or were you in some sort of a house or structure?
MR RAPHOLO: It was a bush, it was a base in the bush. Then there was a fierce exchange of fire and then during that process hand grenades were used to neutralise the fire from the opposing side and after those hand grenades, I ordered all my men to cease fire and withdrawn. Unfortunately we lost one guy in the name of Benson ...(indistinct) that was his nickname, MK name and his real name now is James Mashilo Kgwatlha.
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that surname.
MR RAPHOLO: James Mashilo Kgwatlha, K-G-W-A-T-L-H-A, so he died on the scene of the fight, so all six of us, we managed to get out of the scene, but myself and my Commissar, my Commissar was my Deputy, were injured, we had slight injuries because of the shrapnel of the hand grenades. So we regrouped.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Were the hand grenades thrown by the police or by you?
MR RAPHOLO: We started first, then it was from both sides.
MR SIBANYONI: Who was your Commissar who was injured as well?
MR RAPHOLO: It's the late Mike Makoena.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.
MR RAPHOLO: We regrouped and then he was unaccounted for. My Commissar was unaccounted for until the following morning when he was arrested by the Botswana Defence Force. Five of us, we managed to retreat as a group and then we retreated about five kilometres and then I said we must hide again because the helicopter, the Cessna plane and all sorts of army trucks were moving around, so it was not safe to run all over the terrain, because it was going to pose a danger to ourselves. Fortunately it was dark, it was about six or clock when we decided to stop running and then the helicopter withdrew because of darkness and the small plane was still hovering in the air and then during that darkness we successfully went back to Botswana and then in Botswana we surrendered ourselves to the authorities and we were deported back to Zambia.
MR KOOPEDI: Let's go to 1989 or perhaps let me ask, when did you have an opportunity to come back into the country?
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Koopedi, before you move on, do you know whether there were any casualties on the police side of this incident that you've referred to or are you unaware?
MR RAPHOLO: At that moment, I was not aware of the casualties, we only learned the following day, or during that day through the radio that so many people were injured, one policeman was killed, that we learned from the media and that...(indistinct) media.
MR KOOPEDI: Now after this incident, did you have an opportunity to come back into the country?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes, another opportunity was given in 1989. The reason was, our intention was not to fight the police at Ellisras, that was unplanned contact, our intention was to go and deploy inside the country and then what happened was that since that route we were going to use already is no longer viable for us, we had to change the front, so towards the end of 1989 we were infiltrated again from Swaziland, so we moved from Lusaka to Mozambique and then Mozambique we went to Swaziland and Swaziland we came to South Africa, that is in 1989.
MR KOOPEDI: When you came through in 1989, were you alone or were there other people with you?
MR RAPHOLO: Well due to some experiences of the difficulties of fighting a guerilla warfare in South Africa, it was very difficult to infiltrate more than two people at the same time because during that time there was a state of emergency and then the askaris were very active in road blocks, in patrolling with the Security Forces and then they were identifying our comrades and the possibility of being killed in a large number was there, so it was decided that to play it safe, myself and the late William Madisi infiltrate the country to come and prepare bases for the rest of the members who remained in Mozambique.
MR KOOPEDI: What did this preparing of bases entail? Actually what were you supposed to come and do?
MR RAPHOLO: Well our briefing was that we must base around Pietersburg, that is Lebowakgomo, Bochum, Mankweng, Seshego and all other areas surrounding Pietersburg, with the aim of fighting from inside, not fighting along the borders and it was a message that there might be a possibility that the then apartheid government could not level the playing field for negotiations or continue with their rule at that time and therefore the ANC was planning an insurrection, so to have a successful insurrection, you would need to have armed combatants inside the country.
CHAIRPERSON: From which portion of the country do you personally hail from? What's your place where you were born and bred?
MR RAPHOLO: I was born in Pietersburg.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were going to familiar terrain?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Now when you say ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: The small place of Bochum, isn't that so?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: When you say you were to base as Seshego, Lebowakgomo, what do you exactly mean? Do you mean you were to set up a base there, and what, have weapons there? What actually do you mean?
MR RAPHOLO: Our task - we had various tasks which were laid ahead of us. By creating bases, we were supposed to create bases, that in terms of houses and also in the bush, because you know South Africa doesn't have a bush like in Angola where you can place troops in the terrain. We need to be within the people. So our role was to bring as many weapons as possible, to train as many people as possible and conduct operations, so that was the role we were going to play around those areas.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Please explain to this Honourable Committee what actually happened to you and the late William Mandisi, after you were infiltrated into the country late in 89.
MR RAPHOLO
Well myself and Willie Mandisi, we didn't know each other by real names, we just knew each other by combat names and then when we came inside the country, we based in different places. We were based in Zebediela at the beginning of December and then we also went to Lebowakgomo, Turfloop where there was a large number of South African Defence Force troops and then we were conducting reconnaissance and then during the process myself and Willie, we agreed that we must have a chance to go and see our families. I went to Bochum to see my family and Willie went to Dennilton, I mean to Groblersdal where he was born, to go and see his family and then we met again after the 16th of December and then during our separation we met different contacts. I met my old friends and then he met his and then it was very difficult sometimes to know what actually happened, because we didn't tell each other. If I met somebody in Turfloop whom I schooled with, according to the rule of military combat work, I was not supposed to tell him what actually happened between me and other people, so that in case of arrest, the other people must be safe.
So what happened is that during the process of going up and down, conducting that reconnaissance, there was a problem of finance, money and then we discussed a lot, to say we have two options, to go back to Mozambique and get more money, or raise money inside the country. Then what happened was, to have money we must have a car and then what happened, during my separations with Willie, it happened that there was a robbery in Roedtan, as is stated in the documents and then when he came back he informed me about the robbery and then - but I did not approve it because that was not the aim and we all agreed that such incident will never be happen because it was not right and then again there was an incident in Pretoria.
We went to Pretoria to look for somebody, we couldn't find him and then there was a desperate need for transport and then all of us, myself and Willie, agreed that somehow we need to get a vehicle and then unfortunately we went to, I forgot the name of the place, where we found two white guys, the other one was old and the other one was still young, in his late twenties and then the aim was not to kill, but to get the vehicle. So what happened, Willie took out a Makarov pistol, he pointed the two guys and then we demanded the keys for the vehicle and then there was resistance to give the keys. Unfortunately there was a shot which was fired, two shots in fact, one hit the old man and the other one hit on the floor, so the whole exercise failed and then we escaped.
CHAIRPERSON: Escaped without the vehicle?
MR RAPHOLO
Yes. The reason why there was such involvement was that there was a desperate need for us to be out of Pretoria at that time and well it is regrettable that that incident took place and I took full responsibility for that because I was the Commander and the reason was that the two guys were white and those were some of the arguments that we had, that these guys were white and they were from the Railways, but if you check today, ten years ago you may realise that there was something amiss, we were really from the sick society.
So after that we went to ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, was this man wounded or was he killed in the process?
MR RAPHOLO: He was wounded. After that we went back to Pietersburg.
CHAIRPERSON: And then when you say you went to Pretoria and went back to Pietersburg and you had this transport problem, how did you travel?
MR RAPHOLO
We were using taxis. We went to Pietersburg and where I was staying in Pietersburg, it was on the twelfth of January 1990, myself and the deceased, the late William Mandisi we were in one of the parks in Pietersburg, waiting for sunset because it was difficult to move around during the day, as I've already mentioned that there were many askaris, beside askaris there were people who knew us and then who could have reported our presence to the police and we may end up being arrested, so while we were sitting in the park together with other members of the public, two white policemen came to us, in fact they were spotted by Willie that they are the police and then when we saw the police, two of us we were armed with Makarov pistols and then we hid the pistols within the luggage of food and then when the police came they said what are we doing here and the other one was speaking in Northern Sotho. I replied in Northern Sotho saying: "No, we are just lying here, we are tired and we're eating" and then they wanted to search our luggage. I said: "No, no, there's nothing here, there's only food here and then here there's only a jersey" and then the guy didn't - he only searched our bodies. Then when we said: "Maybe they will leave us alone". The two policemen said no, let's go to the van, a police truck in fact, which was commonly known as ...(indistinct) it was used to collect blacks who were hiding and then when that happened to us, it triggered the old memories of arresting innocent blacks in cities, to us it was a sort of an harassment.
So myself and Willie were caucusing and then saying: "What are we going to do, because these guys, they don't know we are MK operatives, so what are we going to do?" and then we said okay - I said: "No Willie, let's fight from here" and then we differed because it was right in the city of Pietersburg and then fighting there, it may end up being surrounded by a reinforcement of other members of the police, but the reason that I want to put before the Committee is that that incident really ended me as a person, it infringed on my dignity as a South African, sitting in a park and somebody comes and tells me I can't sit here because parks were made for public to sit and all of us here, those who were there, or years before then, we know that there was a law that banned blacks to sit in the parks.
As MK people, ANC members, we were fighting apartheid, those laws were part of apartheid and then that action unfortunately came at a wrong time, when we were wrong people at a wrong place, so the police - me and Willie agreed that we don't fire at the police, we go into the van and conduct ourselves as law abiding citizens.
At the end of the day we went into the van, they locked all of us, together with members of the public, there were about ten people inside the truck and then there was a very painful scene when one guy said he's not alone, he came with his brother and then he has money in the pocket and the brother doesn't have money and they were staying close to 200 kilometres from Pietersburg and he doesn't know what the brother is going to eat and how he is going to go back home and the young policeman didn't want to listen and said: "You're talking rubbish, I don't want to listen to you" and then he said: "Baas, Baas, asseblief, help me" and then the policeman didn't want to understand.
I was next to the door, the door of the truck and then Willie was a little bit next to the cabin and then well, the truck pulled off, it went off with us, moving the whole day with us at the back of the truck and then I made a decision, say: "Now, we are going to escape because at the end of the day we will go to police station, they are going to take our fingerprints, they are going to search us thoroughly and they will discover we are MK operatives and then we are going to be arrested" and it was reasonable that time to fear arrest. The reason was that we knew of several people who were arrested by the police and they didn't come back alive, they were killed or dumped, already there were those stories that once you are arrested, you'll be tortured. There was a fear of torture, more than anything, so we as members of MK, we said instead of being tortured, it's better if the police they can shoot me and kill me, then I'll rest in peace, that was the decision of many of us, so we didn't want to be arrested at all and also being arrested, it means you are going to jeopardise the lives of other people because you'll be forced to talk and reveal certain secrets.
So the truck ultimately went to another park where there were some blacks sitting there, eating, even lunch and so on, then the two policemen, they went to the park, they fetched two guys who were sitting with a lady. They took the two guys and left the lady there and the lady tried to cry and said: "Please, don't take this man, he has got my money, please give me money for taxi. What has he done, what crime has he done?" So the two policemen then left the truck with us being in the back and then when they were still coming, I told Willie: "Now we are going, my friend, we are going to free ourselves" because when they have two people, it became obvious that they are going to open the door and if they open the door, they will want to put the people inside the van and then that will be the opportunity for us to flee and it exactly happened like that. Our weapons were cocked already, we told the people inside the truck, I said: "You keep quiet, we are on our mission" and then when the policemen opened the door and then I shot him in the chest and on the thigh and then all of us, we ran away and then we ran into different directions. I went to Pick 'n Pay centre, I found somebody in the car and then I said: "My friend, as you see me, please take me out of Pietersburg town" and then that guy, he said: "Who are you?" and then I explained to him: "I'm an MK guy and don't tell anybody that you helped me" and then that guy understood and then we passed next to the place where the incident took place to convince that guy and to see there's a lot of policemen, there's an ambulance, there's a lot of sirens, so you see, I'm not tell you lies and the guy believed me and then he dropped me safely in one of the townships in Seshego.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear what happened to the policeman who you shot? Did he die?
MR RAPHOLO: No, he didn't die, he survived.
So that was the last day I saw Willie. So it was Friday, the 12th of January 1990 when that incident took place, so all of us that day, we were hiding, not moving around and then the incident was reported widely in the media and there was a serious man-hunt launched by the police and on Sunday I went to Lebowakgomo to look for Willie and then I was told that he survived Friday's incident, so he's safe, so when I was told that he's safe and then I went back to where we were supposed to meet. We were supposed to meet in Dennilton. So in Dennilton, when I arrived in Dennilton, he was not there, that was Sunday. I had to come back and slept in Zebediela, booked in a motel and slept there. Monday the 15th of January 1990, I went back to our base which was in Moria, next to Moria, there was a village next to Moria where we had a safe house.
So when I arrived there I didn't find the owner of the house because he was having the key and then I didn't have the key, the key was with Willie. We had only one key, so when I went to the house, I wanted to use a window to go in because I wanted to get clothes for changing. I spent about five days without changing clothing, nor bathing properly, because we were on the run from the police.
While I was there a kombi came with the owner of the house and a certain guy I didn't now, so they stopped in the shop of that guy where we rented the house and then I went back to them and then I said: "Hello, how are you?" and then he greeted me and then I said: "I'm asking for a key" and then he give me a key and then before I went to the house, I asked him: "Where is Willie?" He said: "No, he was here yesterday, he was here Saturday." "And then what happened?" He said: "No, since I saw him there..." So when he told me that Willie was there and nothing happened, I took it that he's still safe and I'm also still safe, so I took the key, I tried to open the house.
When I opened the house there were a number of policemen sitting inside the house wearing camouflage, so there was no speaking, I just retreated backward and then they opened fire on me. I was shot in the leg and then when I fell down they came running and I was beaten brutally and then they wanted to interrogate me and then I said: "No, I can't give you any information until you take me to Pietersburg hospital" and then I talked to the Commander of the Bravo Unit, they call themselves Bravo Unit, that I will not co-operate, they would rather kill me that time. He said: "Okay, let's take him to hospital".
They put me in at the back of the van with a black policeman guarding me and then I was taken to Pietersburg Provincial Hospital where I was treated for the shots and it's then the incident was reported in the newspapers, that one terrorist was killed and one was arrested. During that time I was not aware that Willie was killed because after killing Willie, the policemen, they kept it secret, it was never, never reported in the media, it was only reported when I was arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: Whereabout - you say you received a shot in the leg?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes, I was shot three times.
CHAIRPERSON: Three times in the leg, yes and did you learn when Willie in fact died?
MR RAPHOLO: I only learned while I was in hospital.
CHAIRPERSON: That he'd died on the Saturday?
MR RAPHOLO: He died on Saturday.
CHAIRPERSON: Also at that safe - supposedly safe house?
MR RAPHOLO: Ja and the owner of the house, apparently he knew, he was used to set a trap for me because he could have told me, because Willie was shot about a kilometre away from the house, so that people in the village must not know what happened.
MR KOOPEDI: I want to take you a little back, perhaps on something you might have omitted. The gentleman before me, indicate that this could have been on the 11th of December 1989, do you recall an instance where yourself, Johannes Mamaika and Charles, I take it that would be Charles Seakamela, went to Nelspruit?
MR RAPHOLO: Ja, when we - I forgot it, because it's almost eleven years now. When we infiltrated the country, we could not bring all the weapons into the country, so we organised a place, we got somebody and then we told him we were smugglers, not MK operatives because people were told to report on the activities of MK, so that guy believed us and then we left some weapons with him and then myself, as is mentioned, we went to Nelspruit and collected these weapons.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. What did you do with these weapons? Well what was the aim of bringing these weapons, were they to go to the bases that you were supposed to ...(intervention)
MR RAPHOLO: Ja, the whole policy was part of preparation for the seizure of power, as it was the objective of the ANC at that time, and the two weapons, that was two AKs and some hand grenades, were never used throughout our stay. The only weapons which were used were the two Makarov pistols.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now I want to take you back again to some time before the 15th of January, it could have been on the 7th of January 1990. Do you remember an instance when yourself, Charles, Frans and Willie went to the Government offices and tried to steal a car? Could you tell this Honourable Committee about that incident?
MR RAPHOLO: It is like that because our belief was that Government property was the enemy's property and therefore, if we wanted the vehicle, we could go and get one from the Government and that was the perception at that time and we know that the ANC was spreading a campaign against the Nationalist Government, the Homelands, as well as the TBV States, so all those were seen as oppressive regimes and anything that belonged to that regime was not respected and that is why we decided that we don't want to take a property from somebody, we rather take a property from the Government.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you succeed in stealing this car?
MR RAPHOLO: No, we could not succeed.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you do? What attempt did you make at stealing that vehicle?
MR RAPHOLO: No, it was just an attempt, we were just there ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What did you break the window, or how far did you go?
MR RAPHOLO: No, we opened the car and then when we wanted to take it, there was a decision that no, we must leave it because it was late, it was already in the morning.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Is this evidence about charge 10 on page 27?
CHAIRPERSON: Page 27 right at the bottom, you unlawfully attempted to steal a motor vehicle at Lebowakgomo?
MR KOOPEDI: That is evidence relating to that incident.
CHAIRPERSON: So it was a Lebowa Government vehicle?
MR KOOPEDI: That's right, Chairperson. Is it also correct that this vehicle, had you succeeded in stealing it, would have been used in a robbery?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes, that was the - ...(indistinct) robbery, the vehicle was going to be used for many tasks, as I said that we had a lot of tasks ahead of us, that is bringing weapons inside the country, training people, so we needed the use of different vehicles, we didn't want to use particularly this vehicle, because we were going to use it for one day and then we would throw it and look for another one, because if you use a vehicle for a week, you are going to be exposed, so it was going to be used for different tasks.
MR KOOPEDI: Now this robbery, will you please tell the Honourable Committee about it? Did it happen? Did you attempt to involve yourself in the robbery?
MR RAPHOLO: Well, I won't say it happened, there was no robbery which took place, but there were discussions to plan to get money and that money, we decided we get it from the Government and that plan could not go forward due to the lack of transport.
CHAIRPERSON: So you say the only robbery that you know of was the one that was committed by Willie at Roedtan?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Of which he told you, you weren't present.
MR RAPHOLO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he come back with money?
MR RAPHOLO: Ja, he said he got one thousand-something, and it was little. I said: "No, already I had money, so I didn't want to share the spoils."
CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you why he robbed that garage?
MR RAPHOLO: Because it was December time that time and then we were moving about all the time. He said somehow he over-used his money and then he was stranded with funding.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I'm asking for a short indulgence, I just want to make sure whether I've gone through the whole ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, while you're doing that, if I could also do that. If you take a look at charge six, Colonel, there's possession of a whole lot of armaments, hand grenades and detonators and stuff like that, machine guns, which you were charged of being in possession of in the District of Ellisras. When you fled after that sortie with the police, did you abandon weaponry there?
MR RAPHOLO: We were heavily loaded in fact, Sir and then that load could not allow us to run and then a lot of consignment was left there.
JUDGE DE JAGER: From charges one to seven, that would relate to the Ellisras incident?
MR KOOPEDI: That's right, that's right Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So charge eight, this is the same place where the attempted theft of the motor vehicle was at this District of Thabamoopo.
MR RAPHOLO: Oh, it's the same place, Bochum.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now that one, you've told us about how you tried to steal a car, but you opened the door and decided not to and ran away, but you're also charged with being in possession of two hand grenades - four hand grenades at that place. How would that charge have come about?
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I think the charge eight does not per se relate to the attempted stealing of a vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: It's the same place though.
MR KOOPEDI: It is the same area, but what actually happened here is that on charge eight he was being charged with being in possession of these weapons at that area without a licence.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the same area where you were arrested?
MR RAPHOLO: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Where the shooting?
MR RAPHOLO: No, it's the area where we had safe houses.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So what do you say? Did you have four hand grenades?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes, in one of the safe houses.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So you admit that charge, charge eight?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: What - was it just a safe house that you would go to from time to time if you happened to be in the area?
MR RAPHOLO: In fact we were changing places. We were all sleeping in one place, we sleep here today, tomorrow we sleep ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but then when you go tomorrow, you leave your hand grenades behind at that place, or what is the position?
MR RAPHOLO: We forgot them because with us we had the detonators. The detonators and hand grenades were separated.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, maybe, let me, to try and clarify this issue, let me ask this question. The weapons you went to fetch from Nelspruit, what did you do with them? Did you not - where did you go with them?
MR RAPHOLO: The two AKs we fetched in Nelspruit, we stored them in Lebowakgomo in one of the safe houses together with the hand grenades. In fact the hand grenades were dug in the soil, that's why we couldn't take them.
CHAIRPERSON: And then just to make sure, charge eleven, twelve, thirteen, these all relate to the incident which took place on the 9th of January at or near SAVD. What is that? Delfos Railway Station. Oh Suid-Afrikaanse Vervoerdienste. Okay, so it's just a railway station, called Delfos Railway Station. Is that the one where you attempted to steal the vehicle and there were the two people and you say the old man was shot?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: That's those three. Okay. Pietersburg, that is the one you've told us about, the shooting of the policemen and the escape. Mankweng, 15th of January, is that the time that you were apprehended.
MR RAPHOLO: I was shot.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were shot and you had the Makarov there. And the other ammunition referred to in charge sixteen, 240 rounds of AK47 ammunition and other ammunition, they were at the safe house, were they?
MR RAPHOLO: The ammunition was the ammunition which was in the magazine, because they count it separate.
CHAIRPERSON: 240 rounds?
MR RAPHOLO: Four magazines, it's eight magazines.
CHAIRPERSON: Of thirty each.
MR RAPHOLO: Four for myself and four for the deceased.
CHAIRPERSON: And they were at the safe house.
MR RAPHOLO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Koopedi, is there anything relating to the charge that you said you wanted ... (intervention)
MR KOOPEDI: I believe everything has been covered, Chairperson. Now you stated to the police when you were arrested, that you were involved in the Roedtan robbery. Why did you say so? Why did you say so to them, when you say now you were not?
MR RAPHOLO: Okay. Maybe I must relate the incident when I was arrested. When I was arrested, the first question they asked me, the police, they asked me the name and then I gave them my name and then Maj van Wyk, and then he said: "Ja, you were involved in Ellisras", then I said: "Yes" and then he said to me: "We know everything, we've arrested one of your friends and then we know all the incidents that you have done". So the police could link all the incidents we have done, myself and Willie, because the description of victims was that two gentlemen, one was dark in complexion and one was light in complexion, the late Willie was very light in complexion, so the police could link all these incidents and when the police confronted me, I was under pain, I was under pressure, when I told them no, I was not involved and then they - even the question of shooting a policeman, I never agreed that I did shoot the policeman and then they said: "It's you, we know it's you" because of the description by members of the public, they saw us.
CHAIRPERSON: They couldn't have linked you and Willie to the Roedtan robbery because you were not there.
MR RAPHOLO: I was not there, but Willie was with somebody, they were two people, so always two people moving together, that's why they linked that.
CHAIRPERSON: So did you actually say to the police at that stage that you were involved in the Roedtan robbery?
MR RAPHOLO: I said no, but they said no, no, no ways.
CHAIRPERSON: They put it down in the statement, or whatever.
MR RAPHOLO: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Do you think, oh, let me not say think - have you told this Honourable Committee the whole truth, with regards to all the relevant facts, you know, in as far as your memory can assist you?
MR RAPHOLO: As far as I'm concerned, I went to the length of making a full disclosure. Why I agreed to almost all of the incidents it's because the aim of this exercise is to tell the truth and also acknowledge wrongs which were committed during the struggle because we as MK people as well as the SADF, the SAP and other agents who were working for the State, we were - no side was clean and therefore I say I've told everything that I know that I've done and that was done by the men which were under my command. It was difficult sometimes to control a person who was far away from you, but it is universally acceptable that if you are a Commander and somebody commits an offence or a crime away from you, you as a Commander, you are still accountable for his actions.
CHAIRPERSON: Just on that one, Colonel, prior to the Roedtan robbery, prior to you going to Bochum and Willie going down to Groblersdal to see his family, had the two of you discussed or even discussed the possibility of a robbery, or had you contemplated that that might be an option to raise funds?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes, we did contemplate but we never specified.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but it had been discussed that it might be an option?
MR RAPHOLO: Ja, but not to rob individual people.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR RAPHOLO: But to rob institutions which are linked to the Government, that was the ...
CHAIRPERSON: Now let's say that Willie raped somebody while he was there, would you accept responsibility for that?
MR RAPHOLO: As a Commander yes, because I shall have failed in my duties.
CHAIRPERSON: Although it had nothing at all to do with any political motive or objective? Because what I'm trying to get at, you see, with the robbery okay, you've said you discussed it, it might have been an option, not against private civilians, but against State organisations or whatever, but if there was a crime that was completely disassociated with any political objective whatsoever, such as rape let's say, just for an example, on what basis would you accept responsibility for that?
MR RAPHOLO: Well, maybe rape is too horrible, but my argument is that as his leader, it was my responsibility to make sure that he does act according to the laws or the laws which or according to the orders or the guidelines which were given by the military headquarters, that we must not endanger civilians and then well, there were incidents where civilians were injured in other operations, but it was not acceptable that innocent people of South Africa should bear the brunt of apartheid, but if it was in the case of a rape, I'll still be accountable because I'm his father, it's like being a father, I can't run away from that, really. I was like a father. It's like a further having a son who does things outside, he reflects - you are still answerable to that person, you can't say when you are in problem: "No, no, no, he's not my son", you can't deny that person. You say: "Okay, he's my son. Maybe I have failed to bring him up in the correct way and then maybe let's give him the second chance." So that is my argument. I don't want to try to be clean saying I've got nothing to do with that and then he did it on his own, that will be unfair to the deceased.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, do you think that all the actions you were involved in, had a political - were politically motivated and had political objectives?
MR RAPHOLO: Well, if you take the South African situation in context, all of us, black and white, we were the product of a sick society and all the activities which happened before 1990, when Mandela was released, most of us we considered them as actions which were done by members of a sick society, with the exception of the robbery issues which the motive was to promote our political objectives, but it was not somehow the policy of the ANC to encourage combatants to go and rob, although the situation on the ground dictated how people conducted themselves, but most of the cases, I'll start with the one of entering the country illegally, Ellisras shootout, it had a political motive because we didn't gain anything there because it was within the policy of the ANC to fight members of the Security Forces. Bringing weapons inside the country, it was in line with the policy of the ANC, to arm our people, to bring ...(indistinct) into the country and topple the apartheid regime. It is unfortunate that the two robberies happened and the innocent people were, somehow they got injured and it is deeply regrettable. In a normal society, no one can encourage that. If you look back eleven years ago, or ten years ago, if you tell somebody, or somebody asks me: "And then, were you involved in such incidents?" it will be sort of an unbelievable story, a story that never happened, so I really say some of the actions, they happened within the context of the South African situation which was characterised by conflict, it was characterised by race hatred, it was characterised by denial of opportunities, it was characterised by so many things which were directed against blacks and we saw ourselves as the new liberators of the oppressed black people and then during the way, there's no way you can travel a journey without bumping on the rocks. We do accept that during the way there were mistakes which happened and we take full responsibility and to the victims, we really apologise, it shouldn't have happened that people should die and lose their lives.
MR KOOPEDI: And like, as you said, did you personally receive any benefit, financially or otherwise, for having involved yourself in this struggle?
MR RAPHOLO: My involvement in the struggle was to volunteer.
MR KOOPEDI: Therefore you did not receive anything ...(intervention)
MR RAPHOLO: I did not receive anything.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you. Chairperson that will be the evidence-in-chief of this applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Just before I ask Ms Coleridge, just for record purposes, this indictment that appears in the documentation pages 21 et seq, which sets out the seventeen charges and the alternative charges, is it correct you never went to trial on those? A Judgment was given suspending the trial, pending the outcome of your indemnity application?
MR RAPHOLO: Yes, Sir. I was never convicted due to the following reasons. During my - we were arrested just two weeks before Mandela was released and then the face of the politics of South Africa changed completely and then even in detention you could see the policemen, their attitude changed and then in courts and so on and then my lawyers argued that there's a possibility that the applicant could get immunity from prosecution and then Judge Spoelstra decided that my case be postponed indefinitely and then he recommended that a bail arrangement must be made for me, so until 1994, from 1991 until 1994, I was on R5 000 bail, waiting for my case to be finalised and then during the process, the former President F W de Klerk, gave me partial indemnity, as I've already handed the documents with my submission, he handed me the partial amnesty, which we were not satisfied because there were other cases which were more serious than this one, where people received amnesty. That was the argument by my lawyers. Then in 1994, just before the elections, the then President signed the final amnesty on the cases. Then I also want to bring to the attention of the Committee that the reason why I applied, well the President gave me immunity from prosecution, I could have relaxed and said no, I got indemnity and then I don't have to apply for the TRC for indemnity, the reason that I applied was that you must settle the score with the victims, the victims must know - I must know them, they must know me and then another issue was that if somebody does not apply for amnesty, it means that person is not regretting and also it can bring again civil liabilities against an individual.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Coleridge, are there any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?
MS COLERIDGE: Yes, thank you Chairperson. Just to place on record that it's my instructions not to oppose the applicant's amnesty application, Chairperson. There's just a few questions I'd like to ask the applicant in relation to the train station incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Just before you start, you spelled Mr Gilau name, but I see it doesn't concur with the spelling in the indictment where it is spelled, page 29...
MS COLERIDGE: It's incorrectly spelled there, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So it's not Gilali, that L-I should come out and be substituted with a U?
MS COLERIDGE: Correct, Chairperson. A-U.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well L-I comes out, it's got an A there already. Yes.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE: I just want to ask you some questions in relation to that incident. Mr Gilau was a victim in that particular incident. We see that you also stated that you were armed on that particular day, can you tell us what weapons did you have on you?
CHAIRPERSON: Just to make it clear, this is the incident that took place at ...(intervention)
MR RAPHOLO: Pretoria Station.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) Railway Station, yes.
MR RAPHOLO: Yes, I was also armed at that time, but I was only carrying a Makarov. Both of us were carrying Makarov pistols.
MS COLERIDGE: Is that the only weapons that you had with you?
MR RAPHOLO: That was the only weapon.
MS COLERIDGE: Did you fire any shots?
MR RAPHOLO: I can't remember because there was panic after - because when my colleague fired, the aim was not to shoot anybody, then when he fired there was panic, I can't remember whether the shot went out or not, but there were two shots which went out at that time.
MS COLERIDGE: Just for your information as well, Mr Gilau says that a shot was fired at him and you were the person that fired the shot at him, but he missed the shot. Seeing that you can't remember but he can recall that you shot at him and then Willie then shot at Mr van Dyk who was - who also worked there at the time. So you don't dispute that?
MR RAPHOLO: That's why I say, it might have happened because normally during such incidents, there's a panic, you don't know whether the other side is shooting or not, but the intention was not to harm anybody.
MS COLERIDGE: Who was your Commander at the time of this incident?
MR RAPHOLO: I was the Commander. The higher Commander was the military headquarters which was based in Lusaka.
MS COLERIDGE: And who was that? Was there a person that you reported to?
MR RAPHOLO: The Commander of the Army was Mr Joe Modise.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you yourself personally, if you went back, did you have to report to a particular individual or just to headquarters?
MR RAPHOLO: I don't know, in this incident, or in other incidents?
CHAIRPERSON: Well, with regard to this infiltration.
MR RAPHOLO: We ...
CHAIRPERSON: Which you can regard perhaps as one mission.
MR RAPHOLO: The last infiltration we never reported to anybody because ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but if you had to, who would you report to? If you went back to say what's happening, who would you have reported to?
MR RAPHOLO: Chief of Staff, at that time it was Chris Hani.
MS COLERIDGE: And did you report to Chris Hani relating to these incidents? Did you give him a report-back?
MR RAPHOLO: Except the one in Ellisras. The others, we never had chance to go back to exile, as I was arrested and the late Willie Mandisi was killed by the police.
MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, Mr Gilau says that on the - actually just to get some clarification on Willie Mandisi's death and they were actually responsible for identifying the body and they identified Willie as the person who shot at them and Mr Gilau made a statement, it's on page 164 of the bundle Chairperson, it was the 19th, he actually went to go and identify the body.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on) the body of Willie Mandisi.
MS COLERIDGE: According to his information, he stated that this identification was a week after Willie was actually killed.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well it seems from here that the identification took place, there's two - ja, on the 19th of January and according to the evidence of the applicant, Willie would have been killed on the 13th, so - because the Friday was the incident and then the Saturday - that was the 12th and the Saturday 13th, so a week's good enough, I suppose, yes, just short of a week.
MS COLERIDGE: That's correct, Chairperson. We have no further questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE
JUDGE DE JAGER: Could Mr Gilau perhaps tell us what happened to Mr van Dyk? Did he see him later? Did he recover from the wound, or what happened?
MR GILAU: Chairperson, I saw him after the time. We worked together again, after which I was promoted to Nelspruit and subsequently I heard that he went on pension and recently I heard that he was living with his mother in Vereeniging. He survived the incident, however his work circumstances were completely disadvantaged after the incident and he could no longer offer the same co-operation after the incident than prior to the incident. His entire system shut down after the incident, despite his physical recovery. That is all.
JUDGE DE JAGER: If you were to meet or make contact with him, I think it would be advisable if you could convey to him what the applicant has stated.
MR GILAU: Honourable Chairperson, I do not have any means of contact with him, but the last I heard, he had a brother in Pretoria, but I do not believe that I will be able to contact him easily again, nor convey to him what the applicant has stated regarding the incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination, Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-exam, thank you Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant?
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, just one. Mr Rapholo, would you say your colleague used the money stolen at Roedtan to benefit him personally, or was it to enable him to carry on with the activities of MK?
MR RAPHOLO: I would say he used the money to enable him to carry out the duties of MK because the money was used mainly to pay for transport, because that was the only means, we were using taxis and so on.
MR SIBANYONI: The only question, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Judge de Jager, any questions that you would like to ask?
JUDGE DE JAGER: No, I haven't got a question, but I would like to make a statement. I think you should be recommended on the attitude you took and the responsibility you accept for the persons under your command and I hope you'll continue doing so in your new work you're presently doing.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. I take it - well, are there any questions arising from the question?
MR KOOPEDI: No questions on my side, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
MS COLERIDGE: No questions Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE
MR KOOPEDI: And indeed Chairperson, that is the application. We are not calling any other witnesses.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Coleridge, are you calling any witnesses?
MS COLERIDGE: No Chairperson, I'm no. That is our case, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: That therefore brings the evidenced in this matter to an end and your testimony, Colonel. You may stand down now, but I'll ask Mr Koopedi if he has any submissions that he would like to make.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members. I have a very brief submission.
It is quite evident that this application involves quite a number of instances. We were favoured with a copy of the charge sheets and so to speak, the people then did our work in summarising the charges and the issues before this Honourable Committee today.
My submission Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, is that this is a very straightforward amnesty application. The applicant before you had received initially conditional immunity or indemnity and was finally given full indemnity on all these matters, but he still went on to complete his application form, tried to detail all the incidents he was involved in or a member of his unit was involved in. In my mind this tells me that this is a very honest applicant, an applicant who has also not hesitated to take blame, regardless of whether he was personally involved in an operation.
My submission, Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, is that this applicant before you has complied with the very important requirement of full disclosure. He has disclosed all the relevant facts to you. It's also my submission, Chairperson and esteemed Committee Members that all these incidents that he was involved in, there was no personal benefit from him and further that they were clearly politically motivated. Where the motive or objective thereof may perhaps be seen as not political, but for instance like in the robbery charges, I would also say that these were committed to enable the applicant and his colleague to proceed with their duties and it is against that background that I will ask the Honourable Committee to grant amnesty to this applicant. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Coleridge.
MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, we have no further submissions to make Chairperson.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS COLERIDGE
MS COLERIDGE: Just one statement that the victim feels that he can now put the matter to rest, in a sense, Chairperson, but he also feels that all of this has brought up all the emotions all back
again to him and he'll obviously have to deal with it for the next few months, but that's basically all, Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Coleridge. That then brings this matter then almost to a conclusion. All that remains is for a decision to be handed down. We shall reserve that decision because we hand them down in a written form and that shall be done as soon as possible in the future.
I'd like to thank Ms Koopedi and Ms Coleridge for their assistance in this matter. I'd like to thank also the applicant and Mr Gilau for the attitude that they have adopted in these proceedings, and I think it's important to this process that people like the applicant and Mr Gilau can sit across a room, face to face with each other and confront the past and come out with the attitude that they have shown today. Thank you very much.
The decision will be handed down, as I've said, in the near future.
Ms Coleridge, that leaves us with one matter on the roll.
MS COLERIDGE: Indeed, Chairperson, that is the Mabika matter. We will continue with that after lunch. We are ready to proceed with that.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll now then adjourn for lunch and we'll start when you're ready. Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
