ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. We'll now commence with the Messrs M M Yende and T J Phiwane and at this stage I'd just like the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lunga Mbandazayo and I'm representing the applicants in this matter. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader. Thank you Chairperson. The first applicant to testify will be Mr Phikwane. He is Setswana speaking, Chairperson.
MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, just before the proceedings start I propose to address the Committee on the status of the victims in this matter.
Chairperson, the victims who have been located are Gary Owen. I have spoken to him, even today he is not before the Committee. He is in Pinetown, he has indicated that he is not willing to come to the hearing, the matter may proceed in his absence, he only mentioned that he was injured to the extent that he is confined in a wheelchair at this point as a result of a shooting and he says the other person with whom he was, his colleague was Adrian Pearce but he says that Adrian Pearce was not injured in that incident at all. Then there one Mario Alexander Wilfred who could not be located, Chairperson. And there is also Jan de Jager of Port Elizabeth whom we spoke to but he denies that he was injured. In fact he says that he was not injured as well. And then for what it is worth we sent the newspaper article or notification through the newspaper through the Beeld newspaper around Gauteng concerning these incidents for which amnesty is sought here, to ask whoever may have been a victim to please come forward. Unfortunately, no one else, Chairperson, has shown up. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. I'd just also like to inform members of the public present that these proceedings are translated simultaneously and if you wish to benefit from the translation, you must be in possession of one of these devices which are available from the sound engineer. So if you want to benefit from the translation, please obtain one of these devices, just tune it in to the correct channel and you will benefit therefrom.
THEMBA JACK PHIKWANE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. Mr Phikwane, is it correct that you were the born on the 7th August 1955 in Kimberley?
MR PHIKWANE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you passed Standard 6 in 1972?
MR PHIKWANE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that after that you worked as a builder around Gauteng until 1975?
MR PHIKWANE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you joined PAC in August 1976?
MR PHIKWANE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you left the country the same year?
MR PHIKWANE: ...(inaudible)
MR MBANDAZAYO: I'll repeat it. Is it also correct that you left the country in October 1976 and you joined APLA in Botswana?
MR PHIKWANE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you did your military training in Tanzania, Libya and Uganda?
MR PHIKWANE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that since 1981 you came in and out of the country building structures of PAC that it serves for APLA and recruiting new numbers?
MR PHIKWANE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that in 1986 you came back inside the country permanently to be involved in operations inside the country?
MR PHIKWANE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Phikwane is it correct that at the present you are a member of the South African National Defence Force?
MR PHIKWANE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And you are stationed at Pootmansburg in the Northern Cape?
MR PHIKWANE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And you are holding a rank of a staff sergeant?
MR PHIKWANE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Phikwane, is it correct that you are applying for amnesty in respect of about three incidents which started in December 1986 up until February 1987?
MR PHIKWANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Phikwane, can you be able to tell the Committee about the first incident which happened around the 16th December 1986?
MR PHIKWANE: I will do so, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you proceed?
MR PHIKWANE: In 1986 on the 16th December it is when I arrived in Alexander. I met my co-applicant, that is Mr Yende. We were sharing some information and we saw members of the South African Defence Force shooting young children and shooting them with teargas. We made a decision that we'll take steps to attack those members of the South African Defence Force. We followed them at Jan Brand 16th Avenue. We attacked them with Scorpion firearms. As I was a member of the APLA unit I was mandated to do so.
We observed that three members died because they did not return fire. We observed that maybe some of them had died. We retreated and left that place. Then we learnt from the newspapers that three members who have since died during the incident. That is all Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Will I be correct if I say that you yourself you cannot be in a position to say that in actual fact they did die or a certain number of people who were injured except that what you read from the paper or you heard over the radio?
MR PHIKWANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you then, Mr Phikwane, tell the Committee about the second incident?
MR PHIKWANE: The second incident happened on the 1st January 1987. It happened between corner of Jan Brand and 1st Avenue. I went there as a commander being instructed by APLA from outside and again I went those who were recruited within the country, that's Sidudle. We attacked members of the Self Defence Unit with Scorpion firearms in Alexander. We observed again that they did not return fire when we started shooting. We thought then that maybe some of them had died or were injured. But we received the information about the results of the operation from newspapers about the outcome of the incident.
We learnt that approximately six to seven members had died or were injured during that incident because all of us were armed with firearms. And all of us, we were three in number.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who were you with, Mr Phikwane?
MR PHIKWANE: It was myself and Mike Yende, who is my co-applicant, and Mr Sidudle who has since died.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I think Sidudle was David Timiyaga.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed, Chairperson?
Now Mr Phikwane, it's also the same thing with this operation. You yourself you are not in a position to say whether in fact this is the number of people who died or who were injured except that's what you read from the newspaper?
MR PHIKWANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you then, Mr Phikwane, go to the third incident?
MR PHIKWANE: The third incident happened somewhere in the end or the beginning of January. That is in 1987. That is at Hofmeyer Street, that is the corner of Meyer and 11th Avenue. We attacked members of the South African Defence Force. It was Mr Yende and the other person named Morapapa who has since died. We observed again that in that particular incident many members were affected as per newspaper reports as it is stated that five or six members had died. The information about the results of the attack, we read them from the newspaper because we attacked them and they did not return fire and then it was not possible for us to go there and to observe the effects of our attack. Approximately five to six members of the South African Defence Force died during the attack.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Phikwane, can you tell the Committee, we understand that you were coming from outside the country and you were a trained member of APLA. Who gave you instructions, direct instructions, to come inside the country and undertake these operations?
MR PHIKWANE: I received instructions from Sabelo Pama who has since died. Or he has left the PAC. If he was not there Mr Lethlapa Mphahlele would give me the instructions.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, to whom were you reporting after these operations and where were you reporting?
MR PHIKWANE: I'd report to Mr Lehlapa Mpahlele because we used to meet him many times because Mr Sabelo Pama was always engaged.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Where were you reporting to him, Lehlapa Mpahlele?
MR PHIKWANE: Sometimes we'd be in Zimbabwe, at times we'd be in Botswana. At times we'd be inside the country.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee how many were you in the unit in which you were operating?
MR PHIKWANE: We will be three but within the unit the total number is five. It is myself, Mr Yende, Morapapa who has since died and Sidudle, who has since died and Mr Bengu.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, Morapapa has been mentioned, it was alias Ranti Matapu.
JUDGE MOTATA: What is the middle name, Mr Mbandazayo? The middle name of alias?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Ranti. R-A-N-T-I. Ranti Matapu.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Phikwane, can you tell the Committee why specifically the South African Defence Force or Police were your targets?
MR PHIKWANE: It is because of the orders and the polices of the organisation who were members of that, we would attack white members, South African Defence Force and the South African Police of the former government, that we should not affect innocent civilians in our operations.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, that's the evidence of the first applicant in this incident. Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions you would like to put to the applicant?
MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Judge Motata, do you have any questions you would like to put?
JUDGE MOTATA: None Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi, any questions?
ADV SANDI: No Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Just very briefly. Mr Phikwane, these attacks upon the members of the South African Defence Force, the people that you attacked, were they in motorised patrols or vehicles or were they on foot patrols?
MR PHIKWANE: Most of the attacks were made when they were motorised, those which happened in Alexander.
CHAIRPERSON: So was it the situation that you would lie in ambush and when they came you attacked them?
MR PHIKWANE: That is correct, Chairperson. At times we'd attack them when they are motorised or in other instances we attacked them when they are manning roadblocks.
CHAIRPERSON: And did these attacks take place during the day time or at night time?
MR PHIKWANE: The one I am able to recall about is it happened during the day, that's on the 16th December which happened between Jan Brand and 16th Avenue. It happened at 9 o'clock in the morning. Other attacks, for example, the one which happened on the end of January towards the beginning of February in 1987 which happened between Hofmeyer and 11th Avenue, it happened at night when they were changing shifts and the one which happened between corner Jan Brand and 1st Avenue, happened at night.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising out of questions that I have put?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: None Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Phikwane, thank you. That concludes your testimony. You may stand down.
MR PHIKWANE: Thank you Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED
