CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, can you just give your full names, please?
MR SIBANYONI: George Koloi Sibanyoni.
CHAIRPERSON: What was your middle name?
MR SIBANYONI: Koloi.
GEORGE KOLOI SIBANYONI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nyawuza?
EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Sibanyoni, two of your comrades have already testified relating to an incident that happened on the 31st of July 1990.
Briefly tell us your participation in this particular incident.
MR SIBANYONI: I will start off by thanking you for the opportunity given to me. I agree with all that they have said, and before I continue with my evidence, I would like to say that I joined the ANC in 1987 and I underwent training in Zambia. From Zambia I went to Botswana, because we had been given instructions and our Commander was Pule, as he has already indicated. In July we had been assigned to conduct a reconnaissance within the country.
We came into the country from Botswana, as we were reconnoitring the place, the one place that had been identified was Braklaagte where we conducted our reconnaissance.
We learnt that the police were occupying that place. It has been indicated earlier that there was no difference between the police and the soldiers. We monitored their movements so that on the 30th of July in the evening, we left because we did not have a vehicle as they indicated. We went out in search of a car, and we secured a Corolla which he drove, and when we came out, I was driving the vehicle, because I had reconnoitred the area properly and I drove them to the point of attack.
On our way there, we came across the truck to which he referred, it was a military or police truck. It looked like the police truck, the ones used by the police to patrol at night.
We drove passed the truck and went straight to the target, and at the target point, there were leaving in the base, and we came across them as they were leaving the base. We stopped for a while, so that they could drive past us. It had already been indicated that we stopped there and the other vehicle came and stopped next to us, and we did not waste time, and started opening fire.
After that, we withdrew. The shell and the firearm that remained behind, has been mentioned here. We drove back to our exit point and the route on our way back to the exit point, was very bad and very bumpy. But we managed to get hold, or to get to the tarred road, right up to the point where we left the vehicle, near the border. We checked everything and made sure that we were leaving behind everything that had to be left behind. We crossed back into Botswana.
I agree with these people completely.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Sibanyoni, would you regard the incident of the 31st of July 1990, as a politically motivated attack on the members of the police?
MR SIBANYONI: Yes, I would say that the incident was political because if you look at us, as we are sitting here today, and consider out background, you will know and understand how the Bantustans operated, we were, we are all victims of apartheid as we are here.
So that which the Bantustans did, was against the will of the people. We as members of Umkhonto weSizwe were engaged in educating people about these things, and we attacked where we could.
MR NYAWUZA: Is that your evidence Mr Sibanyoni?
MR SIBANYONI: That is correct.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibanyoni. Ms Vilakazi, do you have any questions that you would like to put to Mr Sibanyoni?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: Just one question, thank you Mr Chairperson. The same question that I asked to Mr Mkhwanazi, do you know anything about the whereabouts of Mkululi, what his full names are and where he is now?
MR SIBANYONI: I don't know where he is. If I knew where he is, I would have informed him about this whole thing, the applications.
MS VILAKAZI: No further question, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: I take it you've got no re-examination?
MR NYAWUZA: Yes, that is so, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA
CHAIRPERSON: Judge Motata, any questions?
JUDGE MOTATA: None, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi?
ADV SANDI: Thank you, no questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibanyoni, that concludes your testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyawuza?
MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members.
CHAIRPERSON: Will you be leading any further evidence?
MR NYAWUZA: No, we are not going to lead any further evidence. That is the testimony of all the applicants, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Vilakazi?
MS VILAKAZI: Thank you Chairperson. May I put it on record that the families that I am representing, that of Jukani, the family of Lesabani, the family of Modise and the family of Mothlabane, those are families of the police officers who died during the attack.
The other two police officers, according to the record, they were not able to be traced, but I have been given information by one of the next-of-kin that one of the police officers can be traced through the one who survived, one of the two who survived, can be traced through a Chaplain Mokoka who was in the Bophuthatswana Police College at that time.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you give that name please?
MS VILAKAZI: Chaplain Mokoka.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know which one can be traced, is it Cons Mutalezi or Cons Lethabele?
MS VILAKAZI: I do not have information as to which of the two.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, which of the two?
MS VILAKAZI: Yes. I am also representing Mr Mokgatlha.
JUDGE MOTATA: The person from whom the vehicle was hijacked?
MS VILAKAZI: That is correct. I would like to put it on record that all the persons that I am representing, have indicated that they are not opposed to the applications, only that they want the whole truth to be told, so that they can know what happened to their next-of-kin.
I would then call Mr Mokgatlha, just to give the Committee, to make a submission with regard to the damage that occurred onto the car.
CHAIRPERSON: He is not giving evidence as such, he is just wanting to make an unsworn statement which won't be subject to cross-examination or do you want him to give evidence? That is up to him?
MS VILAKAZI: May I point out Honourable Chairperson, that Mr Mokgatlha had made a statement in 1992 to the police, and the statement is attached to the bundle on page 14 and 15.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS VILAKAZI: That would constitute his evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: So he just wants to give an unsworn statement? Does he want to actually say it?
MS VILAKAZI: He would be giving an unsworn statement.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Mokgatlha, are your names Hendrik Pelotane Mokgatlha?
MR MOKGATLHA: Hendrik Pelotane Mokgatlha.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokgatlha, do you just want to make a statement here, you don't want to give evidence as such?
MR MOKGATLHA: The statement which I made in 1992, it is the same as it has been testified by the applicants. The only point which I just wanted to insert was that when they, I found my car, I retrieved my car, it was damaged, then I spent an amount of R5 000-00 to return it to the condition which I received it from the owner. On that particular day I spent that money to put the car in a good condition, but all that appears there is in accordance with what the applicants have testified.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. And the damage to your vehicle, is that what Ms Vilakazi damaged, the scraping on the paintwork and the damage to the sump?
MR MOKGATLHA: That is correct Chairperson, the sump was damaged and the gears were not in good order, and the paint was removed, then I spent an amount of R5 00-000 on the damage.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Is there anything further Ms Vilakazi?
MS VILAKAZI: That will be all with regard to him.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokgatlha. Any other persons, Ms Vilakazi?
MS VILAKAZI: Honourable Chairperson, I will just call each member from each family.
CHAIRPERSON: One from each?
MS VILAKAZI: Yes. I will call now Mrs Mabot Tsukane.
CHAIRPERSON: Is this also just to make statements, Ms Vilakazi, they are not going to testify as to the merits of the matter or anything?
MS VILAKAZI: No, no, they do not have any information with regard to the merits, that is just statements.
CHAIRPERSON: So they just want to make statements, not subject to cross-examination?
MS VILAKAZI: No, it is statements for purposes of Section 22, to be declared as victims.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, it is not necessary for them to do that, as long as we get their information. If it could be supplied to Mr Mapoma.
We, in the event of amnesty being granted, are obliged to refer people who are in our opinion, are victims, to the Committee on Reparation and Rehabilitation. If amnesty is granted, then quite clearly the immediate family of the deceased persons, the persons who were killed in the attack, are clearly victims, as would be Mr Mokgatlha.
MS VILAKAZI: As it pleases the Honourable Committee, but there is one request from the witness that I have just called now, Mrs Mabot Tsukane. She has a request to make to the TRC to intervene, perhaps she could put it on record.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Sorry, if we could have her full names please? Mrs Tsukane, what are your full names please?
MS TSUKANE: My names are Mabot Francina Tsukane.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Vilakazi.
MS VILAKAZI: Mrs Tsukane, you have indicated that you want to make a special request to the TRC, can you explain what your request is with regard to the incident involving the death of your husband?
MS TSUKANE REQUESTS COMMITTEE: My request which I would like to make to the Truth Commission is that since as from 1990 after the death of my husband, I and my in-laws had a dispute, my in-laws thought that I am responsible for my husband's death and my son is now 13 years old, and we have no contact, even after I received a notification, I went to them to tell them to accompany me, to come here, they did not want to. I am requesting the Truth Commission, I should reconcile to my in-laws because I am not involved even a bit about the death of my husband. That is my request Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Tsukane, it is quite clear from the evidence that we have heard from Messrs Pule, Sibanyoni and Mkhwanazi that you had nothing whatsoever to do with the unfortunate death of your husband and his colleagues that night.
Your remarks, we will take note, they have been recorded, and I can forward it on to the Rehabilitation Committee, which is another Committee of the TRC and draw it to their attention, and hopefully they will be able to do something, although I don't exactly know what myself personally, but we will forward your concern to the relevant Committee and hope that you can be reconciled with your in-laws. Even if necessary, if they can read the transcript of the evidence of these gentlemen here, just to prove to them, beyond all doubt that you were not at all responsible in any way for the death of your late husband.
MS VILAKAZI: That will be all Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Vilakazi. Submissions?
MR NYAWUZA IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members, the applicants all submit that the incident that occurred on the 31st of July 1990, it is common cause ...
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think it is quite clear that they were operating as MK members, on an operation.
MR NYAWUZA: So besides that Chairperson, I don't have any other submissions. I leave it in the hands of the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Vilakazi?
MS VILAKAZI: No submissions, I will leave it to the Panel.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS VILAKAZI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: Nothing Chairperson.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. We will reserve our decision in the matter. Not only because it is our policy to hand down written decisions, but also to address the questions that were raised at the beginning of this application, and Mr Mapoma, I am sure, will keep in touch with you Mr Nyawuza who in turn will keep in touch with the other gentlemen that you are representing.
That then brings us to the end of this hearing. Thank you for your assistance in the matter, Mr Nyawuza, Ms Vilakazi, thank you, and Mr Mapoma, thank you.
We will reserve our decision in this matter. Mr Mapoma, is that the roll for today?
MR MAPOMA: That is the roll for today Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Tomorrow morning, half past nine?
MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, half past nine.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will now adjourn for the day and we will continue sitting tomorrow morning, we will be hearing other applications and we will hopefully start at half past nine in the morning, tomorrow morning with a fresh application. Thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
