ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will now commence with the hearing of Mr L.K. Mthethwa, application number 6601/97.
I would at this stage request the legal representatives to place themselves on record.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members, my name is Brian Koopedi, I appear before you on behalf of the applicant, Mr Mthethwa.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.
MR MAPOMA: I am Zuko Mapoma, the leader of evidence, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Koopedi, you can call your applicant.
MR KOOPEDI: Just a second Chairperson, he seems to be having a problem with his headset.
CHAIRPERSON: Here comes the Technician. Mr Mapoma, will you be looking after the interests of the victims in this matter?
MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, indeed. In fact I consulted with them, they are here, and I may at this point Chairperson, place it on record, that they have indicated that they are not opposed to the application.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Koopedi, I take it you will be calling the applicant.
MR KOOPEDI: That is indeed so Chairperson, we are ready to proceed, he is also ready to be sworn in, he will be testifying in Zulu, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.
LAZARUS KHAZAMULA MTHETHWA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Koopedi?
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mthethwa, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, that is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: I am referring you to page 1 of the bundle of documents before this Honourable Committee, is this your application form?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, that is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: On page 10 of the same bundle of documents is a signature appearing at the bottom of the page, is that your signature?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, that is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that this application revolves or is an application for amnesty for the killing of one Alec Mashaba during September 1986?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, that is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: At this time, were you a member of any political organisation?
MR MTHETHWA: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: What political organisation were you a member of?
MR MTHETHWA: Tembisa Youth Congress.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you have a leader at the Tembisa Youth Congress, did you have anyone who was your senior or your Commander in the Youth Congress?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, there was Peter Chauke.
MR KOOPEDI: Would you take this Committee through the events that obtained on this day, where were you before Mr Mashaba was killed?
MR MTHETHWA: I was at home, Peter Chauke came with many comrades, they told me that they were coming from Welamlambo Section. Peter told me that there was a person who was killing the comrades and he was working, this person was also working with the police, whose name was Percy and then he was actually ordering me to go and look for this gentleman. I didn't have a problem, because he was my Commander.
We proceeded to the place. Peter stopped us on the way, next to a certain place where they had just been grass and shrubs, and then he told us to apply then the "roet", the black substance, the black substance, that we should apply it on our faces. After that he led us to the house. We got into the house, we went into the bedroom, we found the victim, we took him by force, all of us, and we were many there, and we found him asleep. He couldn't resist because we were so many. We overpowered him. We pulled him out of the house and we saw a woman following us, and I think that lady is here today, I think she is the mother to the deceased. But we didn't listen to her, we took him to Welamlambo Section and the comrades from Welamlambo took him to a certain forum and he was accused, after that he was killed.
I was also involved in the whole process and I witnessed the whole incident.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, what ...
JUDGE MOTATA: Just before you do Mr Koopedi, what do you mean that you were involved in this whole process after you reached Welamlambo Section?
MR MTHETHWA: When he was being questioned, I was involved, I was in the house with Peter Chauke and all the other comrades, the house was full of comrades. I was there during the questioning, because this was not our case, we didn't have much jurisdiction, we didn't have jurisdiction to voice our own opinions, because this was not our case.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean it wasn't your case, Mr Mthethwa?
MR MTHETHWA: The comrades who came with Peter Chauke and Peter Chauke told me to go and assist the comrades from Welamlambo. I was taking orders from the Commander, I would do as he told me. He told us not to say anything, not to contribute because this was not our case.
CHAIRPERSON: It was the case of the comrades from another Section or another area?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand, thank you.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. After the case you said, that was held, that is after he was charged and he was then killed, what active role did you take, did you participate in, what active role did you do?
MR MTHETHWA: I was never involved in anything thereafter.
MR KOOPEDI: But you however associate yourself with everything that was being done there, the case, the killing?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, that is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: What happened after he was killed?
MR MTHETHWA: We were arrested with the other comrades. I was granted bail after that, I realised the trouble that I was involved in and I decided to leave the country.
MR KOOPEDI: Where did you go to when you ran away?
MR MTHETHWA: I left for Mozambique and I joined Umkhonto weSizwe there.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now, have you, did you ever apply for indemnity for this matter?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, that is correct, I applied for indemnity after I came back to South Africa.
MR KOOPEDI: Were you granted this indemnity?
MR MTHETHWA: No, I never received a response because just after that, the TRC came into being and we were told to apply.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just one question Mr Koopedi, just for the record, it is apparent from the documents, the manner in which the deceased was killed, was this by the so-called necklacing method where he was burnt?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, that is correct, he was brutally burnt in a necklacing style.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you receive any personal gain, any material personal gain for having involved yourself in this killing?
MR MTHETHWA: No, not at all. We were not working for any company, this was all politically motivated, so there were no benefits.
MR KOOPEDI: And what political motivation would you say you people had to have killed Alex Mashaba?
MR MTHETHWA: I am associating myself with politics, because this person was a police informer and he was actually an obstacle in our struggle and he was also involved in killing comrades, and we wouldn't achieve our goals as politicians in South Africa.
MR KOOPEDI: And you actually were told that he, that is the deceased, was this informer and the person who kills comrades. You did not have any personal proof of knowledge of that, is that correct?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, that is correct, we didn't have any tangible proof, but we were told by Peter Chauke that this person was working with the police and he was involved in the killing of comrades, but myself, personally, I didn't have proof.
MR KOOPEDI: Have you told this Honourable Committee the whole truth, have you fully disclosed all the relevant facts related to this killing?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, that is correct because I came here voluntarily, I decided to apply for amnesty, I am the one who is prepared to tell the truth, because I want the people to know the truth.
MR KOOPEDI: Now finally, is there anything you would wish to add to your testimony?
CHAIRPERSON: We are not getting any translation. We didn't receive any translation of that, I wonder if you could repeat what you have said, Mr Mthethwa?
MR MTHETHWA: At the moment we are in good terms with the victim's family. We are a very big family with them, and because of what happened, no one knew what was happening actually. I also want to apologise to them, because all this happened because of the political violence and the situation was very tense. At the moment, I do wish that such things should not happen again in the whole South Africa, thank you.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that is the evidence of the applicant, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Just a few Chairperson. Where was Peter Chauke residing at the time?
MR MTHETHWA: Peter Chauke was residing at Baxa Section, in my Section.
MR MAPOMA: Why do you say this case was a case of the comrades from another area, was he not from that area?
MR MTHETHWA: No, Peter Chauke was residing at Baxa Section, and he was my leader and there were also a comrade from Baxa Section, but on that particular day, he came with the comrades from Welalambo Section. That is why I said that this case was not for us, but I was just asked by Peter Chauke to assist and I couldn't say no.
CHAIRPERSON: Would it be correct, would I be correct if I say that the comrades from the other Section, Welalambo Section, wanted to get hold of the deceased who was in your area, and Chauke's area, but they couldn't do it themselves because of the protocol that existed, they had to go through the leader of the area in which the deceased was, which wasn't their area?
MR MTHETHWA: The rule was you wouldn't go to a particular Section without going via the leader of that particular Section.
CHAIRPERSON: And that is why Chauke got involved in it?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. re-examination?
MR KOOPEDI: No re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Judge Motata, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?
JUDGE MOTATA: Just for clarification, when you state in your application that you are an MK member, you are not referring to the time when you belonged to the Tembisa Youth Congress, you are telling us about your status now or where you belong now?
CHAIRPERSON: Page 1, paragraph 7?
MR MTHETHWA: I think I made a mistake, but I thought I was saying, I think it is a mistake here, maybe they wanted to say I was belonging to a political organisation, so I wrote ANC or MK
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you, no further questions Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi, any questions that you would like to ask?
ADV SANDI: Yes, I do Chairperson, just one or two. Before this incident, did you know the deceased at all?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, that is correct.
ADV SANDI: What did you know of him?
MR MTHETHWA: We used to go to school together, we used to go to school together at Savanna Section.
ADV SANDI: Did you personally believe that the deceased was an informer as it was being alleged by these comrades?
MR MTHETHWA: When you are in a group, it is very difficult to be independent in your thinking and beliefs, because there is also excitement and reality is blocked and you eventually become angry and thinking about this person that was being within the other people, that he is a sell-out, so all I can say is that anger overcame the independent thinking and beliefs, and therefore the situation was not as normal.
ADV SANDI: Were you angry?
MR MTHETHWA: Everyone in the group was very angry, we were ululating, we were doing everything.
ADV SANDI: What exactly was being alleged about the deceased, who was he alleged to have killed?
MR MTHETHWA: First of all he was labelled as an informer, secondly it was alleged that he had killed a certain comrades from Welamlambo Section, whose name was Sonnyboy. Those were the allegations.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthethwa, the Tembisa Youth Congress, was that aligned to the ANC?
MR MTHETHWA: Yes, they would associate themselves with the ANC because most of the time they would bring the reports from the UDF.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel?
MR KOOPEDI: None, thank you Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: No questions Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthethwa, thank you, that concludes your testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, there will be no further evidence, that concludes this case.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Mapoma, any evidence from your side?
MR MAPOMA: No evidence Chairperson, except to point out that Mrs Betty Mashaba is the mother to the deceased person, and she is present at this hearing, she said she just wanted to be recognised as a victim in this matter. There is no other evidence that she can tender on the merits of the matter. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson, I have a very brief submission.
Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members, it is my submission that the applicant before you has complied with the requirements of the Act for the granting of amnesty. My submission is that this applicant acted on the orders of his superior, Mr Chauke. It was explained to this applicant that the deceased was an informer and also a killer.
However, my submission is that even if this explanation was not given to him, but by virtue of having his superior ordering him to accompany them to go and assist the comrades from Welamlambo Section to capture the de ceased, my submission is that the applicant would have gone in any event, even if he was not afforded this application.
Finally, it is my submission that this applicant has given full disclosure on the basis of the facts, that were available to me, and my submission is that he has given full disclosure. He was not compelled to have applied for amnesty in this instance, but he did it on his own. Clearly there isn't any evidence that shows that there was any material gain that he obtained. Thank you Chairperson.
JUDGE MOTATA: Would the application, because he was removed from his house, also include either abduction or kidnapping?
MR KOOPEDI: That could be so, I believe it would include abduction or it would be any other crime that would flow from having killed this person, but yes, it would include the abduction, because as he stated in his evidence, the deceased did not wilfully accompany them, he was forced out of his bed, and the applicant says he was part of the group that dragged or pulled the deceased out of his bed.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Mapoma, do you wish to make any submissions?
MR MAPOMA: No submission Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A written decision will be handed down in this matter as soon as possible, and the decision is accordingly reserved. Mr Koopedi, thank you for your assistance in this matter, Mr Mapoma, thank you. Thank you Mr Mthethwa, that concludes your hearing, a decision will be handed down in the near future.
Mr Mapoma, are we ready to proceed with the next matter, or do you want to have an adjournment?
MR MAPOMA: We are ready to proceed Chairperson, I would like to call Patrick Nhlanhla Modibedi Radebe.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, may we be, may I be temporarily excused?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly, thank you Mr Koopedi.
