CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, Mr Sandi does not have his bundle here, it is in the room I think. Thank you, we will now commence with the hearing of Mr P.N.M. Radebe. At this stage, I would request the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.
MS MAKHUBELE: I am Advocate T.A.N. Makhubele from the Pretoria Bar, representing the applicant, Patrick Radebe.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR NYAWUZA: I am O.P. Nyawuza from Johannesburg, representing P.G. Motaung, Christina Ntabiseng and Ntauleng's mother.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, Zuko Mapoma, Evidence Leader.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Ms Makhubele, you are going to be calling the applicant?
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you Mr Chair, yes, I will lead the applicant.
PATRICK NHLANHLA RADEBE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Makhubele.
EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you. Mr Radebe, you are also known as Modibedi, that is your other surname?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: I see from the application form, Ms Makhubele, that he actually uses the name Modibedi as his surname? Which is the correct one to use, Radebe or Modibedi?
MR RADEBE: We can use Radebe, because I used to use the Modibedi surname, I now use Radebe.
CHAIRPERSON: It is not a question of what name you are using, we want to know what your legal, correct name is.
MR RADEBE: Radebe, Chairperson.
JUDGE MOTATA: So in other words we should call you Mr Nhlanhla Patrick Radebe?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: I noticed it has been pointed out to me, in your trial the name used was Modibedi? Was that an alias or just an assumed name by yourself?
MR RADEBE: That is correct Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Makhubele?
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you Mr Chair. How old are you?
MR RADEBE: I am 29 years old.
MS MAKHUBELE: You reside at Sebokeng in the Vaal, Vereeniging area?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Radebe, if you could speak a little bit louder, because there are people sitting in the audience who would want to hear what you are saying.
MR RADEBE: Yes Chair.
MS MAKHUBELE: You are before this Committee for an incident which occurred on the 15th of October 1998 at Sebokeng, an incident for which you were ultimately convicted by the Court where you kidnapped and assaulted some people, is this correct?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, he also applies for, I see, robbery? Is that right, and public violence? Page 2 of the Bundle?
MS MAKHUBELE: You were ...
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, is that correct, is he also applying for robbery and public violence?
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: Thank you Mr Chair. This incident occurred on the 15th of October 1998, can you tell ...
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, is it not 1988?
MS MAKHUBELE: 1988 yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You said 1998?
MS MAKHUBELE: I am sorry Chairperson. Can you tell this Committee whether at that time, you were a member of any political organisation and if so, your capacity in that organisation?
MR RADEBE: I was a member of COSAS and the ANC Youth League.
MS MAKHUBELE: Did you have any position there?
MR RADEBE: No, I was just an ordinary member.
MS MAKHUBELE: Can you describe the political situation, anything like unrest, violence at that time and the parties involved, or the people you were fighting against?
MR RADEBE: I will explain it this way. We had many informers in our area, other comrades also acted as informers against others. They were taking information from the organisation, to the Special Branch police.
As members of the organisation, we decided that we have to deal with such people, we have to discipline them.
MS MAKHUBELE: Who were the people identified as informers?
MR RADEBE: Those were the people who turned against the comrades in court, and they became State witnesses in court.
MS MAKHUBELE: Anyone in particular?
MR RADEBE: One of them was Ntabiseng, Baseka and Ntauleng.
MS MAKHUBELE: Who else?
MR RADEBE: I do not remember the others, but there were many.
MS MAKHUBELE: With reference to the incident for which you are before this Committee, are these the victims, the people you have mentioned?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: You mentioned Ntabiseng, Ntauleng and Baseka, there are three?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: How were you to deal with them?
MR RADEBE: We were to discipline them, that will depend on the type of discipline that we decide to ...
MS MAKHUBELE: Can you tell us what happened to them on the specific day, the 15th of October 1988?
MR RADEBE: On the 15th of October 1988, in Zone 14 in Sebokeng, we went to fetch them using a furniture van, we were taking them to Soweto, we were going to attend a night vigil of our comrades but unfortunately we could not reach the destination.
MS MAKHUBELE: Did these three people stay in one house?
MR RADEBE: No.
MS MAKHUBELE: Can you tell us how you took the first one, Ntabiseng from her home?
MR RADEBE: We fetched Ntauleng first, but she did not open for us.
MS MAKHUBELE: What did you do to her house or home?
MR RADEBE: They shouted and said they would call the police and we broke a few windows and we retreated.
MS MAKHUBELE: Before you proceed, you keep on saying we, with whom were you when you did these things?
MR RADEBE: We were eight in number.
MS MAKHUBELE: Can you specify names?
MR RADEBE: It was Terrence Mkwehli, Struggle Mokoena.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Terrence Mkwehli?
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes?
MR RADEBE: Struggle Mokoena, Josias Motlung, Vusi Motaung, Goodwill Masimola and Benni Jekelha.
MS MAKHUBELE: Are these the people who were your co-accused in the trial?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: So you did not manage to take Ntauleng our of her house, but you caused damage to her home?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
ADV SANDI: What was the purpose of causing this damage to her home?
MR RADEBE: I did not see the person who actually broke the windows, I only saw the broken windows, while they were shouting that they will call the police.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
MS MAKHUBELE: Then you left, to whose home?
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry could you repeat your question please, your microphone was not on.
MS MAKHUBELE: After Ntauleng's home, which house did you proceed to?
MR RADEBE: We went to fetch Baseka.
MS MAKHUBELE: What happened there?
MR RADEBE: We knocked, pretending to be policemen and he opened the door. He was taken out by Terrence.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed ...
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you talk about going and fetching Baseka, are you talking about Baseka George Motaung?
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS MAKHUBELE: What was your role at his home?
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was the microphone on?
MS MAKHUBELE: What was your role at Baseka's home?
MR RADEBE: Because we were many, I was not able to enter the house, but he was taken out by the other comrades.
MS MAKHUBELE: Did you see if any force was used on him?
MR RADEBE: I saw them dragging him outside, and they took him to the car. That is the only thing that I saw.
MS MAKHUBELE: And then, what happened next?
MR RADEBE: He managed to escape, we ran after him but we could not catch him.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, were you people in your sound and sober senses? I am just wondering how one man is being dragged out of his house by eight people, just manage to escape and none of you can catch him?
MR RADEBE: He was fighting while we were trying to force him into the van, that is how he managed to escape and we tried to run after him, but we could not manage to catch him.
MS MAKHUBELE: Proceed, where did you go to next?
MR RADEBE: We went to his neighbour, that is where Christina Mfolo stays.
MS MAKHUBELE: What happened there?
MR RADEBE: We knocked, pretending to be the police, and they opened the door. I don't know who dragged her from the bedroom, I only saw her in the kitchen. She was dragged out and taken to the car. She was forced into the car, in the front seat, and then we left to Soweto as we planned.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry before you proceed, Ms Makhubele, what was her name, you say Motiso Mfolo?
MR RADEBE: Christina Mfolo.
CHAIRPERSON: Christina Mfolo, is that the same as Christina Ntabiseng?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: Did you do any specific thing to her or at her home?
MR RADEBE: No, we did not do anything.
MS MAKHUBELE: I am referring to yourself, did you hold her, drag her, or did the knocking at her home?
MR RADEBE: No. The person who dragged her to the outside, was Struggle, I did nothing.
MS MAKHUBELE: Who was driving the vehicle?
MR RADEBE: That is Struggle Mokoena.
MS MAKHUBELE: Was she assaulted in any manner?
MR RADEBE: She was seated in the front seat, I was at the back of the van, so I did not see her being assaulted.
MS MAKHUBELE: You mentioned that you did not get to where you were going ultimately, what happened?
MR RADEBE: Somewhere in Soweto, I think that was around Dube, we were confronted by the police, but we did not stop and they chased us and they shot at us.
We ran away, so I don't know what happened thereafter.
MS MAKHUBELE: When the police shot at you, the only person amongst the three victims was Ntabiseng?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
MS MAKHUBELE: You have heard during consultation when I informed you that Baseka has made a statement where he states that he was actually put in the truck and he was assaulted, he only escaped at the point where the police - where you met the police, what do you say?
MR RADEBE: That is not the truth.
MS MAKHUBELE: Is it possible like the situation of Ntabiseng, like you say he was seated on the front, that Baseka was also in the front and as such, you did not see him being assaulted?
MR RADEBE: No, the last time that I saw him was when he ran away and we could not manage to catch him.
MS MAKHUBELE: What were you going to do to Ntabiseng in Soweto?
MR RADEBE: That would depend on the discipline that we had decided then.
MS MAKHUBELE: What would you like to say to the people you kidnapped on that night, Ntauleng where you damaged the window panes at her home as well as George, who managed to escape and Ntabiseng who you ultimately took along to Soweto?
MR RADEBE: I would ask them to forgive me for what I did to them, but I did that under what was happening then. That is all I can say to them.
MS MAKHUBELE: How many, or rather, what was your sentence at the trial for this incident?
MR RADEBE: I was sentenced to seven years imprisonment.
MS MAKHUBELE: How many did you serve?
MR RADEBE: Two years and some few months, I don't remember the months.
MS MAKHUBELE: Evidence-in-chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Just before I ask Mr Nyawuza. If you turn to page 2 of the documents, it says here he is applying for amnesty for public violence, what does the public violence relate to?
MR RADEBE: When I refer to public violence it is because we were charged for this in court.
CHAIRPERSON: Does that relate to the incident that took place at the house where the windows were broken?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And it says kidnapping, okay, you have told us about that, assault, okay, you have told us about that, and then robbery, what, you haven't said anything about robbery to us yet?
MR RADEBE: It is because it was alleged that we robbed that car from the owner.
CHAIRPERSON: Which car?
MR RADEBE: That is the furniture van that we used to travel to Soweto.
CHAIRPERSON: It was alleged, what do you mean by that? Are you saying that you didn't do it, or what?
MR RADEBE: We took it by force from the owner.
CHAIRPERSON: What sort of vehicle was it?
MR RADEBE: It was a furniture van without a canopy at the back.
CHAIRPERSON: And who was the owner?
MR RADEBE: I don't know the owner.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you take it by force?
MR RADEBE: He was packing at a certain house in Zone 14. We took the keys from him and we took the van.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you do to the owner?
MR RADEBE: We did nothing to the owner.
CHAIRPERSON: What was the political motive in hijacking the van?
MR RADEBE: We took that van because it belonged to the whites, and we did not want to see the white's vehicles in the township.
CHAIRPERSON: Was the driver or the owner who you took the keys from, a white person?
MR RADEBE: No, the driver was a black person.
CHAIRPERSON: So, what was the name of the furniture company from whom it was stolen, who owned the van?
MR RADEBE: I do not remember the name of the furniture shop.
CHAIRPERSON: So how did you know that it belonged to the whites when you took it from a person who was not white?
MR RADEBE: We asked him about the car, because it was written that it belonged to a furniture company.
CHAIRPERSON: So you are saying the only reason you took the vehicle was because you thought it belonged to a white person?
MR RADEBE: Yes, it belonged to a white person.
CHAIRPERSON: That is the only reason why you took it?
MR RADEBE: It is because we wanted to use it.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, precisely, wanting to use it for your own purposes? Mr Nyawuza?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members. I would wish to put it on record that the victims, they advised me not to oppose amnesty. They feel it was, everything was done within the political turmoil that was prevalent at that time, but they would wish that I get a few answers from the applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.
MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Radebe, how many vans were used on this particular day, there were eight of you?
MR RADEBE: We used one van.
MR NYAWUZA: Isn't it correct that there were two vans involved, Mr Radebe?
MR RADEBE: That is not true.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, my instructions are that Baseka was in the van that did not have a canopy and Ntabiseng was in the other van, in front, what is your comment on that?
MR RADEBE: I would only agree that Ntabiseng was in the van that I was travelling with, I don't know about the other van.
CHAIRPERSON: In the van which you were in, were all your seven comrades with you?
MR RADEBE: Yes, all of us were in that van.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, do you know a guy by the name of Sixteen?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I know the name.
MR NYAWUZA: Will I be correct Mr Radebe if I say Sixteen was present on this particular day?
MR RADEBE: He was not amongst us.
MR NYAWUZA: Are you in essence Mr Radebe saying there was some other independent group or why are you saying he was not amongst you, are you saying he was not there?
MR RADEBE: He was not amongst the people I was with.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, during your evidence-in-chief it emerges as if you did not have anything to do with the breaking or the getting into the house, tell me what you in particular did on this particular day, did you throw a stone, did you stab somebody, did you drag any person, what is it that you in particular, did on that particular day?
MR RADEBE: My role was to identify those people we were going to fetch, there was nothing else that I did.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, let's now go back. You get into Ntauleng's yard and the occupants of the house do not open for you, how were you going to identify Ntauleng?
MR RADEBE: If they had opened the door, I would enter and identify Ntauleng.
MR NYAWUZA: And Mr Radebe, the occupants of the house do not open, the window panes are broken, are you saying you did not take a part in that?
MR RADEBE: No, I did not take part.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, are you saying to this Committee today that you were not as agitated as your other comrades were, who went to an extent of breaking the window panes?
MR RADEBE: I was agitated, but I did not allow my emotions to control me to that extent of breaking the windows.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, the window panes are broken at Ntauleng's house, you now go to Baseka's house. As the person who was supposed to identify Baseka, will I be correct to say that you were in front?
MR RADEBE: I was not in front. He was dragged by the people who were in front.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, I haven't arrived yet at the dragging. You are from Ntauleng's house, you are now going to Baseka's home. The people that you are with, Mr Radebe, don't forget, do not know Baseka, you have to identify Baseka. Invariably you've got to be in front to be able to say "this is the guy that you are looking for"? Further, you stated that you knocked at the door, and then are you still saying that you were not in front, Mr Radebe?
MR RADEBE: I was not the only person who knew Ntauleng and Baseka, there was another guy also who knew them.
MR NYAWUZA: But your evidence today is that you were the person who was supposed to, you didn't tell us about the other guy who was supposed to identify these people, why not?
MR RADEBE: I was only referring to my role.
MR NYAWUZA: Okay, tell us then who identified Baseka, is it you or the other guy?
MR RADEBE: That was the other guy.
MR NYAWUZA: And where were you during that identification period?
MR RADEBE: I was outside.
MR NYAWUZA: Are you saying you never set foot inside Baseka's house?
MR RADEBE: No, I did not.
MR NYAWUZA: The assault, didn't you assault Baseka?
MR RADEBE: No, I did not.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, my instructions are that you stabbed Baseka, what is your comment on that?
MR RADEBE: No, it is not true.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, whilst on Baseka, you have this van, Baseka is dragged out of the house, invariably I believe he was also dragged from the yard into the van, can you tell us what ultimately, you are standing outside, you know, you are observing everything that is happening because according to your testimony you are not taking part in the assaulting, in the beating of Baseka, so I am inclined to believe that you were observing everything that happened. Baseka is dragged from the house, Baseka is taken to the van, what subsequently happened? Was he ultimately put into the back of the van or, you know, take us through that?
MR RADEBE: Yes, it is true, he was dragged to the van, that happened very quickly. He managed to escape from that van.
MR NYAWUZA: When did he manage to escape, Mr Radebe? Did he manage to escape after you had also found Ntabiseng and put her in front, when did he escape?
MR RADEBE: He was left with three people, while other people were at Ntabiseng's place. That is how he managed to escape.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, there is eight of you, and a few is a relative term, what do you mean when you say when there were a few people, were there four people guarding Mr Motaung, Baseka or were there two people or were there six, what is a few?
MR RADEBE: If I am not mistaken, three people.
MR NYAWUZA: Are you saying the other five people went to Ntabiseng's place of residence, is that so?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
MR NYAWUZA: Were you amongst the people that went to Ntabiseng's place?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
MR NYAWUZA: Were you able to get - a follow up on that question, there is five of you, can you tell us the name of the people that you were with, that entered into Ntabiseng's place?
MR RADEBE: I was with Terrence, Struggle, Josias and Vusi Motaung.
MR NYAWUZA: So these were the five people that entered Ntabiseng's place of residence, is that so?
MR RADEBE: Before we entered at Ntabiseng's place, that is when they shouted and we ran away.
MR NYAWUZA: Who shouted and what were they shouting about?
MR RADEBE: Those three people who were with him, they were shouting that he is escaping.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, on Baseka, I put it to you that my instructions are that Baseka was stabbed, assaulted, doused with petrol and made to lay at the back of that van, what is your comment?
MR RADEBE: No, I don't know that.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Nyawuza, were any of you armed with a knife?
MR RADEBE: No, we were not thugs, we did not have knifes.
CHAIRPERSON: Were any of you armed with a firearm?
MR RADEBE: No, we were not armed.
CHAIRPERSON: You see, why I ask is if I look at Mr Baseka George Motaung's statement on page 16, he says and I don't know if you can make a comment on it
"... they smashed window panes and I opened the door and they started assaulting me by kicking, beating by a gun butt and being stabbed by a knife at the back."
And then he says they drove, he talks about going along the Golden Highway until Johannesburg and he said he couldn't even walk, he tried to walk later, an fell.
MR RADEBE: No, I don't know this.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you dispute that?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, has your legal representative told you what you need to do here to get amnesty?
MR RADEBE: Yes, she told me.
MR NYAWUZA: Do you know that full disclosure is one of the requirements?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
MR NYAWUZA: Okay. I believe that after some of your comrades shouted and said Baseka is running away, you were part and parcel of the people that tried to chase after Baseka, is that right?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
MR NYAWUZA: And you couldn't catch up with him, is that so?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
MR NYAWUZA: And how many people did you assault at Baseka's home, did you assault Baseka alone or were there other people that were assaulted?
MR RADEBE: Only Baseka was dragged out of the house.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry were window panes broken at his house like he says in the statement?
MR RADEBE: No, that is not true.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, my instructions are that window panes were broken at Baseka's house, his younger brother was attacked, his father was attacked, in fact his younger brother known as Rangwani had to undergo surgery because of the beating that he got on that particular day. What is your comment on that?
MR RADEBE: I know nothing about that.
MR NYAWUZA: The said Rangwani, I have requested that he avail himself today, I hope he is here, to confirm that he was assaulted on that particular day and he had to undergo surgery. Baseka's father was hacked above the right eye and he sustained an open wound? Your comment, Mr Radebe?
MR RADEBE: That is the first time that I learn about that, today.
JUDGE MOTATA: Mr Nyawuza, if I may just interrupt there,
Mr Radebe have regard to page 13 of the documents. You
mentioned that you were with Vusi and Vusi mentions that you
were in his company, do you see that? Look at paragraph 2 -
"... we were about five, namely myself, Patrick
Modibedi, Struggle who was the driver, Terrence
and Chauke."
Do you see that?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I do see.
JUDGE MOTATA: And further down he says, that would now be the fourth paragraph
"... we started at Ntauleng's place and we smashed the window panes, and they did not open the door and we proceeded to Ntabiseng and we got hold of her and we also got Baseka, who later escaped while on our way to Soweto."
So the impression I get from the statement that is made, is that he did not escape whilst you were getting into Ntabiseng's place, he was in that van, and he escaped en route to Soweto?
MR RADEBE: No, that is not true.
JUDGE MOTATA: You may proceed, Mr Nyawuza.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, I am going to revert back to the question that were asked by the Chairperson, were you in your sober senses on that particular day?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
MR NYAWUZA: Okay, Mr Radebe, let's now go to the last person to whose house you went, that is Ntabiseng. You run after Baseka, you cannot get hold of Baseka, you come back, what happened?
MR RADEBE: Then we went to Ntabiseng's place.
MR NYAWUZA: Got into the yard, did you break that door, did you break the windows, what happened?
MR RADEBE: We knocked at the door and they opened the door.
MR NYAWUZA: Who opened the door, Mr Radebe?
MR RADEBE: I do not remember, because all of us entered.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, the door is a very small entrance that one can use, you cannot be eight of you going in at the same time. There's got to be one or two people going in at the same time? When did you get into the house, Mr Radebe?
MR RADEBE: I was the fourth person to enter.
MR NYAWUZA: And by the time that you entered, where was Ntabiseng?
MR RADEBE: I think she was in the dining-room because they were dragging her into the kitchen.
MR NYAWUZA: And you were not playing any part in the dragging and assaulting, Mr Radebe?
MR RADEBE: I also dragged her, but that is when we were outside.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, do you remember me asking you about Sixteen?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I do remember.
MR NYAWUZA: Are you aware that I don't know Sixteen, I have never seen him?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
MR NYAWUZA: And I was told about Sixteen by Ntabiseng. My instructions, Mr Radebe is that Ntabiseng's uncle opened the door for you, Ntabiseng hid under the ward rove and you looked for her for some time, you couldn't find her, on your way when you were about to leave the house, Sixteen went into the bedroom, looked under the ward rove and said "here is this bitch, she is hiding", what is your comment on that, Mr Radebe?
MR RADEBE: No, Sixteen was not with us.
CHAIRPERSON: Sixteen, where do you know him from?
MR RADEBE: I knew him in 1986 while we were in detention.
CHAIRPERSON: Is he one of your comrades, was he a member of COSAS and the Youth League and that sort of thing?
MR RADEBE: He was just a thug.
CHAIRPERSON: A thug? So he wasn't one of your group, is that what you are saying?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I would say so.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyawuza?
MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Radebe, here are three people, Baseka, Ntabiseng and Ntauleng's mother, they were victims of an assault on a particular day when the house, Mrs - Ntauleng's mother's house was attacked, Baseka was beaten, stabbed, Ntabiseng was beaten and they come before the Truth Commission, they say "okay, we are aware that at the time there was this mishap, there was this problem between us and the comrades which we vigorously tried to address with them, that we did not testify against our own comrade of our own free volition, we were made to testify against him. We will come to the TRC Committee and say we forgive Mr Radebe, because we know he was acting within the prevalence of this violence at the time", they are seated here, they want to hear you tell the truth. Do you still think that if they feel you are not telling the truth, are they going to forgive you, are they going to say they are no longer opposing amnesty, Mr Radebe?
MR RADEBE: Well, I don't think so.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, what is it that you stand to lose if you tell the truth because my instructions and what you are saying here, contradicts each other a lot?
CHAIRPERSON: You might as well add that the Panel aren't bound by the fact that a victim does not oppose an application, we've got to take a look at the criteria before we make a decision.
MR RADEBE: May you please repeat that question again?
MR NYAWUZA: My question is, you - people were victimised on a particular day, they come to the Committee they are saying "we don't have anything against you being granted amnesty", but they are seated there and they feel that you are not telling the truth, you are not talking about the stabbing, about the assault, in actual fact, on this particular day you were an angel, your duty was only to point out "this is the person who testified against us", are you saying, are they going to feel the same after you have given testimony after I cross-examined you, are they still going to say they would have wanted you to get amnesty for this?
MR RADEBE: What I am saying here today is what happened that day.
MR NYAWUZA: You said there was only one van involved, is that so?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
MR NYAWUZA: My instructions are that there were two vans involved, the van that was in front had Ntabiseng in it, and the van that was behind the one that Ntabiseng in it, had Baseka, what is your comment on that?
MR RADEBE: I only know of one van.
MR NYAWUZA: And Mr Radebe, my instructions are that after you had got hold of Ntabiseng, both vans left Everton using the side that goes to, I don't know whether you call it Chinatown, but they are saying ...(indistinct) in their African language, that is the route that was used.
It is on that route that the car that Ntabiseng, managed to go through and the one behind, was spotted by the police officers, and they suspected something and in fact, Baseka was told not to do anything, and he jumped when he saw the hippo. All of you guys who were in that motor vehicle, escaped, but unfortunately, apparently one of you was arrested, my instructions are not clear as to who was arrested at the time. Are you, what is your comment on that?
MR RADEBE: Yes, it is true that one person was arrested, but that happened in Soweto.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, Mr Motaung was part and parcel of you on that particular day, is that so?
MR RADEBE: Are you referring to Vusi Motaung?
MR NYAWUZA: Yes, Mr Radebe.
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.
MR NYAWUZA: And we now, we have his affidavit, we have a statement, sorry, a statement by himself saying that Baseka escaped on your way to Soweto, so are you trying to tell us that your presence at Baseka was your way to Soweto?
MR RADEBE: That is what I said before, maybe he was unable to explain it clearly here in his statement.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you think of any reason Mr Radebe, why Mr Baseka should make a statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission Investigator saying that he was stabbed, the windows at his house were broken, that he was beaten with the butt of a gun, that he had to receive hospital treatment after the incident, because of the injuries he sustained, can you think of any reason why he should come up with that version, which is entirely disputed by you even after you have been sentenced in respect of this incident and something that happened, that is in the past, can you think of any reason why he should be making up this version against you at this stage? You have already served your sentence, you are already out of prison for serving it?
MR RADEBE: It is the first time that I learnt about this, because he never said this, even in court during our trial. I don't know the reason why he is saying this today.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nyawuza?
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, did Ntabiseng testify against your in your trial?
MR RADEBE: Yes, she did.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, why would four people, Mr Vusi Motaung included, lie about your participation in this thing, in this, in what happened on this day?
MR RADEBE: I don't know the reason. It can also happen that he has forgotten what has happened on that day.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, would he forget that at some stage you were on your way to Soweto with Baseka, I mean you went out to get these people and you found them, you know, it is something that one glorifies, "we have undertaken our duty fairly well", and I wouldn't forget if I was Mr Motaung, Vusi Motaung. What makes you think that he would forget such a thing?
MR RADEBE: Maybe he has made a mistaken when he was writing the statement, he must have forgotten some important issues.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, to wrap up your evidence, did you assault anybody on this particular day?
MR RADEBE: No, I did not assault anybody.
MR NYAWUZA: Did you break any window on this particular day?
MR RADEBE: No, I did not break any window.
MR NYAWUZA: Will I be correct to say that you were the saint who didn't do a thing on this day?
MR RADEBE: I was not a saint on that day, because these people were supposed to be taken to Soweto, maybe I would have taken part in Soweto, if we had managed to arrive.
MR NYAWUZA: What is it that you intended doing to these people when you reached Soweto?
MR RADEBE: I have explained before that they were going to be disciplined, but that would depend on the type of discipline that would be meted against them.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Radebe, why take them to Soweto for that purpose, weren't you all from Sebokeng area?
MR RADEBE: We were taking them to Soweto because there was a night vigil there.
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to get this straight, you and the people that you were with, planned to go to Soweto to attend a night vigil, but you also, because you wanted to discipline these other people who had testified against one of your friends in a court case, you took them with you to Soweto, just because you were going to Soweto to attend the night vigil, is that the reason or was it necessary for them also to be disciplined by people who were in Soweto, that is what I am trying to find out?
MR RADEBE: No, it is because we were also going to the night vigil in Soweto.
CHAIRPERSON: Now these people that you were with, these other seven people, whose names you mentioned, were they members of COSAS and the Youth League, all of them?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, do you know a guy by the name of Dog?
MR RADEBE: Dog is my nickname.
MR NYAWUZA: Okay, Dog was your nickname? Where were you seated in the van that was going towards Soweto, were you seated in the back or in the front?
MR RADEBE: I was seated at the back.
MR NYAWUZA: Mr Radebe, why are my instructions that you were seated in front with Ntabiseng?
MR RADEBE: I was seated at the back.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, this is the furniture van with the flat back? So you were exposed to the elements outside?
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct Chair.
MR NYAWUZA: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson. Mr Radebe, I just want before I proceed, to get this clear from you, are you aware at all that even if you were a member of a political organisation and even if the victims do not oppose your application for amnesty, as long as you do not tell the truth in this hearing, you do not qualify for and you will not get amnesty, are you aware of that?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I do know.
MR MAPOMA: Okay. Let's start here. Is it your evidence that during 1988, you were a member of the ANC Youth League?
MR RADEBE: Correct Chairperson.
MR MAPOMA: Were you a card carrying member of the ANC Youth League then?
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.
MR MAPOMA: Are you sure?
MR RADEBE: I was a member, because at that time, political organisations were banned, I was not a card carrying member.
MR MAPOMA: Then why did you lie and say that you were a card carrying member of the ANC Youth League in 1988?
MR RADEBE: It is because we, all the time we were guided by the ANC.
MR MAPOMA: I thought during 1988 the youth were organised in South Africa, following the policies of the ANC, were members of the South African Youth Congress? I thought so, am I wrong?
MR RADEBE: I have stated earlier that I was a member of COSAS when I was a student. Then later I became a member of the ANC Youth League.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mapoma, just to intervene, to get it on record, at that time you would have been almost 17 years of age, is that correct, at the time of the incident? I see from your form, your birthday was the 1st of November 1971 and this happened during October 1988, just before your 17th birthday, is that correct?
MR RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mapoma.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson. I put it to you that during 1988 the ANC Youth League was not operating in South Africa, inside the country? What is your comment?
MR RADEBE: Perhaps I did not understand because I said that I was a member of COSAS, then I thought at the same time that I was a member of the ANC Youth League. As I was a young person at that time, I thought that I was a member of the ANC Youth League.
MR MAPOMA: Let's leave that point. Now, when you went to Baseka's home, were you in one group, all of you?
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.
MR MAPOMA: And do I understand that that very same proceeded as that group, to Ntabiseng's home? Is that correct?
MR RADEBE: I said three people remained with Baseka, and the five of us went to Ntabiseng's place. They were neighbours, that is Baseka and Ntabiseng.
MR MAPOMA: At what stage did Baseka escape?
MR RADEBE: He escaped while we went to Ntabiseng's place.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought earlier in your evidence, and just correct me if I am mistaken, didn't you say that Baseka escaped as they were trying to push him into the vehicle, because you will recall I asked you whether you people were in your sound and sober senses when Baseka escaped as there were eight of you, he managed to escape and run away successfully from the eight of you and you said he escaped when he was being pushed into the vehicle. That is what you said earlier? What is the position?
JUDGE MOTATA: Actually before you respond, I have a note that he was fighting, while you were forcing him into the vehicle?
CHAIRPERSON: What is the position, did he escape while being forced into the vehicle or did he escape whilst he was being restrained near his house, when the other five of you went to the next door house, to get Ntabiseng, what is the position?
MR RADEBE: Yes, he was fighting back, because he was trying to disembark from the van. He was on the back of the van, and he was fighting, so I don't know whether when he escaped he was in the van or he was out of the van. I am not sure of that.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?
MR MAPOMA: So is it your evidence now that when he escaped, you were not there in the group?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I was not with the group that was left with him.
JUDGE MOTATA: Mr Mapoma, just for me to interpose briefly, where was this van parked when Baseka was taken out of the house into the van, where was it parked in relation to the house of Baseka?
MR RADEBE: It was in front of the house.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir. When he escaped, that is Baseka, as you say, had you already gained access into Ntabiseng's home?
MR RADEBE: No, we were still knocking.
MR MAPOMA: And you saw him run away while you were still knocking at Ntabiseng's home, is that what you are saying?
MR RADEBE: Those people who were left with him shouted and said that he was escaping, and then we saw him escaping.
MR MAPOMA: So when Ntabiseng was taken out of his house, out of her house, Baseka had already run away, is that your evidence?
MR RADEBE: That is correct.
MR MAPOMA: And at that time, the members of your group, where were they, those who were left with Baseka, at Baseka's place, where were they now when you were gathered outside with Ntabiseng?
MR RADEBE: They had already joined us at Ntabiseng's place.
MR MAPOMA: So is it your evidence that at the time when Ntabiseng was taken out of the house, there was nobody at Baseka's place?
MR RADEBE: No, I don't remember that.
MR MAPOMA: I am asking this question because Ntabiseng in her evidence, I mean in her statement says that whilst she was - I just want to read it for you, on page 20 of the Bundle, paragraph 4, the last line she says
"... before I got into the car, I saw another group at Baseka's house and I don't know what happened to him."
MR RADEBE: I don't know that, because there was no fence between the two houses, that is Ntabiseng's place and Baseka's place.
MR MAPOMA: What is it that you don't know?
MR RADEBE: I do not understand your question.
MR MAPOMA: Your answer is that you don't know, the question was this is what Ntabiseng says, what do you say to the statement of Ntabiseng, is it correct or incorrect?
MR RADEBE: I am saying there was no other group at Baseka's place.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination Ms MAKHUBELE?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, Honourable Chairperson. Do you know if any of your co-accused at the trial, Vusi ...(indistinct) Motaung in particular, has applied for amnesty?
MR RADEBE: Well, I don't know.
MS MAKHUBELE: There is no indication from the records, the Bundle, but can you tell us if you recall from the trial how many charges or counts of assault you were charged with, by saying how many people testified at the trial that you assaulted them, or were assaulted?
MR RADEBE: I only remember Ntabiseng, that was on assault.
MS MAKHUBELE: That is all?
MR RADEBE: That is all, yes.
MS MAKHUBELE: I have no further re-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Judge Motata, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?
JUDGE MOTATA: Just clarification, Chairperson, thank you. Mr Radebe, have regard to page 8 which is the typed version of your statement, contained on page 9, look at the seventh paragraph.
You say there -
"... we were five comrades, that is myself, Vusi, Terrence, Chauke and Struggle",
and in your evidence you said that you were eight, oral evidence? Do you recall the precise number, or are you taking the number of the persons charged which would appear on page 28 of the Bundle?
MR RADEBE: I do not remember other people, but I take this number from the number of people I was charged with.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but then why did you in your statement say there were five of you and then you mention their names, you can see for yourself, it is there? Is that just an oversight?
JUDGE MOTATA: Because when you gave evidence, you even mentioned Mgwedi, you remembered precisely the people there, but in your statement Mgwedi does not appear?
MR RADEBE: I think it is a typing mistake here.
JUDGE MOTATA: Let's have regard to the written statement then. It commences on page 9 and if you go to page 10, that would be the third paragraph
"... we were about five comrades, that is myself, Vusi, Terrence, Chauke and Struggle ..."
So it is a correct typing because it accords with the written version?
MR RADEBE: I did not write the statement, I think the person who was writing the statement for me, made a mistake.
JUDGE MOTATA: Is this not your handwriting, you asked somebody to write for you?
MR RADEBE: It was written by the Investigating Officer who came to me.
JUDGE MOTATA: What standard did you reach at school?
MR RADEBE: Standard 5.
JUDGE MOTATA: If you have regard to the statement by Baseka, I will find it shortly.
MR NYAWUZA: It is on page 16 of the Bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: Page 16?
JUDGE MOTATA: He says in the second paragraph
"... in 1988 after testifying against one comrade, Ace Motaung, I do not remember the date, when a group of comrades arrived with four car and a truck of furniture, it was about eleven o'clock",
how many cars were you using on that particular day or vehicles, to put it much better?
MR RADEBE: We used one car.
JUDGE MOTATA: And again I asked you this earlier, do you still disagree with Vusi when he says that would be on page 13, that Baseka escaped whilst you were on your way to Soweto because that is the person that you remember also in your statement, mentioning that Vusi was present when this incident occurred?
MR RADEBE: When Vusi was writing his statement, I was present. That is when the Investigating Officer was visiting us, it can be a mistake by the Investigating Officer.
JUDGE MOTATA: He also mentions five people, those are the people that you mention in your statement, that would be the second paragraph on page 13?
MR RADEBE: That is why I say it may be a typing machine because he was just asked to confirm or deny what I had already stated in my statement.
JUDGE MOTATA: Are you suggesting that these statements were taken when both of you were in the presence of each other?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I was present when we went to Vusi's work place.
JUDGE MOTATA: Now just lastly, on page 8 again, and I would refer you to paragraph 4
"... we started at Ntauleng's place and we smashed the window panes and could not succeed as they did not open ...",
when you refer to "we smashed", who are you referring to because the impression that I am gaining is that you participated in the smashing of the window panes?
MR RADEBE: The reason why I say we smashed the windows is because we were many there, so I did not see who actually smashed the windows.
JUDGE MOTATA: You were eight according to your oral evidence, that is not a large group, was it? You were eight according to yourself? You are not talking of a more, or were there other people whom you cannot recall?
MR RADEBE: No, it is not so.
JUDGE MOTATA: So you mean the seven obscured your view or obstructed your view to see who actually smashed the window panes?
MR RADEBE: The only thing that I remember is that when these windows were smashed was at the time when we were leaving and the people were noisy, so I did not recognise who actually did it.
JUDGE MOTATA: So if I understood your evidence, oral evidence, it is that you were one of the two that had to point out these people, would I be right?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
JUDGE MOTATA: And if that happens, obviously you must be in front, because you must point out these people?
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.
JUDGE MOTATA: And at these other places where the door was kicked and that kind of thing, did you see who did that, because you say you did nothing?
MR RADEBE: Like I said, the person who was leading the group when they went to Baseka's place was Struggle because he was the person who knew Baseka.
JUDGE MOTATA: Did he kick the door, was it Struggle who kicked the door?
MR RADEBE: No, we knocked pretending as policemen, but we knocked forcefully.
JUDGE MOTATA: Did you knock, you personally now, forcefully?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I was knocking at the other door.
JUDGE MOTATA: Now let's get the picture now, because when you say the other door, which door are you referring to? Didn't you people use one door where you knocked and gained entry?
MR RADEBE: We knocked as police, the other people were knocking at the door, others knocking at the windows, but they opened only one door, that is the kitchen door.
JUDGE MOTATA: Which door now, we know there is a front door and a kitchen door if I know the typical township house, which door did you use, the front door or the kitchen door?
MR RADEBE: We used the back door, that is the kitchen door.
JUDGE MOTATA: No, I don't mean entry, I mean the knocking, because you said others were knocking somewhere and you knocked at the kitchen door.
MR RADEBE: There is a door in the front, and the other one at the side. As we knocked at the front door, we also moved around to the other door.
JUDGE MOTATA: All of you?
MR RADEBE: We were not at one door at the same time.
JUDGE MOTATA: How many were at the kitchen door where you knocked?
MR RADEBE: I knocked at the dining-room door, but they opened the kitchen door at the back, that is the door which we used to get inside.
JUDGE MOTATA: How many were you who knocked in the front, on the front door?
MR RADEBE: We were two.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Judge Motata. Mr Sandi, do you have any questions?
ADV SANDI: Yes, just one question for clarification for me. You say Sixteen was a thug? Why was he in detention then, what had he been detained for?
MR RADEBE: He robbed the bakery.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe who and how, who made the decision and how was the decision made to go and kidnap Ntabiseng Mfolo and Baseka and to go to the other house of Ntauleng?
MR RADEBE: Terrence Mkwehli was in the local structures, and he informed us about the decision that was taken at the meeting.
CHAIRPERSON: A meeting of what?
MR RADEBE: That was the COSAS meeting, because we were all students.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Ms Makhubele, do you have any questions arising out of questions that had been put by Members of the Panel?
MS MAKHUBELE: Nothing Honourable Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyawuza, any questions arising?
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Yes, only one question. Mr Radebe, on your answer, your answer to Adv Sandi's question as to what was Sixteen arrested for, you said for the robbery of a bakery, was he the only person arrested or was he arrested with other people?
MR RADEBE: He was, I don't know the other people who were arrested with him, but we were detained, because we were comrades.
MR NYAWUZA: Was he also detained under the same Section as yourself?
MR RADEBE: We were not in the same cell, but we were at the same prison, but he was detained for robbing the bakery.
MR NYAWUZA: Wasn't he detained under Section 29 as yourself?
MR RADEBE: No, I don't remember so.
MR NYAWUZA: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, any questions arising?
MR MAPOMA: None Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Radebe, that concludes your testimony, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Makhubele, are you going to be calling any further witnesses?
MS MAKHUBELE: None Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyawuza, do you intend to call any witnesses?
MR NYAWUZA: No, I am not going to call any witnesses, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, are you going to be calling any witnesses?
MR MAPOMA: No Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want, I see it is after one o'clock now, do you want to finish this matter now or do you want to address after lunch? Do you want to make submissions?
MS MAKHUBELE: I suggest we do so now Honourable Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, right. Thank you Ms Makhubele, if you can make your submissions please.
MS MAKHUBELE IN ARGUMENT: Honourable Chair and Committee Members, I just want to highlight because it appears at the end of the day that this would have an impact on whether he has disclosed or not, but I just wish to point out some differences in the statement of Baseka and Ntabiseng. When we look at the statement of Baseka, he says that he doesn't know what happened to Ntabiseng after he escaped, but on the same breath, it appears he was in a bakkie and Ntabiseng was also in a bakkie. ...
CHAIRPERSON: But it was clearly put that there were two vehicles?
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, I am coming to that Honourable Chair. In his statement he mentions that there were four cars and a truck and I would imagine that when he says a bakkie, he is referring to the truck.
CHAIRPERSON: No, not necessarily. If there were two, we don't know the type of the other one, we know the one was a flat back truck?
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: My, yes, it could be. It needn't be, but it could be.
MS MAKHUBELE: Yes, but unfortunately we don't have his testimony where one would have had an opportunity to clarify the issues like this, Honourable Chair.
If Ntabiseng says that she, after she was forced in a bakkie, she doesn't know what happened to this Baseka, but Baseka says that he last saw Ntabiseng, he doesn't know what happened to Ntabiseng after he escaped. One would then imagine that at the place where he escaped, he was with Ntabiseng?
CHAIRPERSON: No, it was from Mr Nyawuza, he put it that the two vehicles were leaving Chinatown, passed Chinatown and the one went ahead and the police came and the people escaped near Everton, where Baseka escaped and the other one got through to near Dube? It wasn't the two vehicles at the same place, that was what was put by, although I know it is not evidence, but I mean what you are saying is wrong in accordance with what was put by Mr Nyawuza.
MS MAKHUBELE: Honourable Chair, what I am saying, I have taken from the statement, from his written statement, not the version put by Mr Nyawuza, I am taking it from the statement that he says
"I do not know what happened to Ntabiseng after I escaped"
which would mean that until he escaped, he could see or was with Ntabiseng in one car.
CHAIRPERSON: Not necessarily, yes, it might be.
MS MAKHUBELE: Might be, thank you Mr Chairman. Another thing is the version which has been put to the applicant that at Baseka's house or home, people were assaulted, his brother, his father, but unfortunately like I said before, his version differs with the applicant's and there is no way where one can test the version, because it is not even in his written statement. There is nothing in his written statement to suggest that any other person but himself, was assaulted at his place.
I know and understand and appreciate that it is not a criminal trial, but then this would at the end of the day impact on whether he has disclosed everything that happened on the day in question, because we do not even know from the Bundle whether he was charged with one assault or how many assaults Honourable Chair.
My submission is that the applicant has made a full disclosure and which in my opinion would be the only disputed requirement, and as such, that he should be granted amnesty. Thank you Honourable Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Makhubele. Mr Nyawuza, do you wish to make any submissions?
MR NYAWUZA IN ARGUMENT: Only three lines. Honourable Chair and Honourable Committee Members, our submission is that there hasn't been full disclosure, first in that a person who was arrested and served the same sentence with the applicant before this Committee, testified that, made a statement to the effect that the motor vehicle they were in, was going towards Soweto and that is disputed by the applicant.
There has just been so many contradictions and a lot has not been said by him. The evidence is on record. We submit that he should not be given amnesty. That is all that I can say on behalf of the victims.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Mr Mapoma, do you wish to make any submissions?
MR MAPOMA IN ARGUMENT: Just a few Chairperson. On the question, on the issue which is quite disturbing Chairperson, that one of full disclosure.
The applicant gives an impression that he did not participate in the acts of assault, the smashing of the windows and the explanation that he has given as to why he did not participate, is that he did not want his emotions to overrun him. That gives an impression Chairperson, that those who did those things, were just overrun by emotions, otherwise that was not the plan.
That infers that he disassociates himself, he dissociates himself with those assaults as it is. One other thing, that is interestingly noteworthy in his evidence is that of all the persons who were forming that group, the actual persons who identified themselves as the actual perpetrators are Terrence and Struggle.
Those two, they are the only two whom he has mentioned, and they are not alive.
CHAIRPERSON: They are the only two that are dead now, as well, yes.
MR MAPOMA: Pardon Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: I say they are deceased now?
MR MAPOMA: Yes. Chairperson, it is my submission that that counts heavily against him as a credible person, as a credible witness to give, to make full disclosure before the Committee. That is all Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any reply Ms Makhubele?
MS MAKHUBELE: None Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. We will hand down a written decision in this matter, as is our policy. Accordingly we reserve our decision, I would like to thank the legal representatives, Ms Makhubele for your assistance, Mr Nyawuza for yours, and Mr Mapoma for yours. Thank you. We will now take the lunch adjournment and then you can let us know when you are ready to - have you got another matter to go on with today?
MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, the matter I would be calling after lunch is that of Buhali.
CHAIRPERSON: Buhali and Dube?
MR MAPOMA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will now take the lunch adjournment, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
