CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We will restart the proceedings. For the record, it is the continuation of the session of the Amnesty Committee at the JISS Centre in Johannesburg. It is Tuesday, the 24th of July 2000. The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record. The first matter that we will be dealing with this morning is the amnesty application of Philip Nambo Masilo. The amnesty reference number is AM2060/96. For the formalities, Mr Mbandazayo you can perhaps just put yourself on record again.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicant in this matter. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Mtanga?
MS MTANGA: My name is Lula Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee. Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am. Mr Mbandazayo, is there anything that you want to draw our attention to or put on record before we administer the oath to your client?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson, except that the applicant is Tswana speaking, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, I think we have the appropriate interpretation service for that. Perhaps also just tell the Interpreter if you can hear the translation on your headset. Are your full names Philip Nambo Masilo?
PHILIP NAMBO MASILO: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Mbandazayo?
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, for the purposes of this hearing I will use the affidavit which starts from page 8 of the bundle. Thank you.
Mr Masilo, is it correct that you were born on the 4th of May 1959?
MR MASILO: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it correct that you were born in Pretoria?
MR MASILO: No, I was not born in Pretoria.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee where were you born.
MR MASILO: I was born in Britz.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee when did you join the PAC?
MR MASILO: I joined the PAC in 1985.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you join the PAC?
MR MASILO: In Mabopane.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it correct that before you joined PAC, you were a supporter of PAC.
MR MASILO: Yes, that's correct, I was a supporter of PAC.
MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you start supporting PAC?
MR MASILO: In 1985.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Masilo, the affidavit which is ...(intervention)
JUDGE MOTATA: May I interpose, Mr Mbandazayo. You referred us to an affidavit on page 8, there it says he was a supporter from 1977, at Tembisa, not the answer we got right now.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, it's 1977, that's why I was now taking him back to the affidavit now, just to confirm the contents of the affidavit, because now he's talking about 1985.
CHAIRPERSON: These issues can't really be in dispute, Ms Mtanga will indicate that, you can lead him on that.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson, but for purposes Chairperson, just to curtail the proceedings the best for me is to read the affidavit.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Masilo, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?
MR MASILO: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it your signature that appears here?
MR MASILO: Yes, that's my signature. Before I joined the PAC in 1985 - in 1977 I was not yet the supporter of the PAC, but I was following the PAC, it is only in 1985 that I started becoming the supporter of PAC.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I will proceed to read the affidavit, thank you.
"Philip Nambo Masilo states under oath in English: I am a black male, 40 years of age, residing at 2507, Block B, Mabopane. I am presently service 25 years sentence at Medium A, Central Prison, Pretoria.
I am a supporter of PAC organisation from 1977, at Tembisa branch, under the command of Joshua Ghatle. And his address is unknown, but at Sidibeng(?), Tembisa.
During the year, 1985, Mr Joshua Ghatle came to Mabopane from Tembisa to meet me and Solomon Dlamini, Philemon Tebele, at a house known as a hide house. He told us that we must got to a certain house in Pretoria to take money from a white male. We said we must talk to him polite, until we grab him and demand him to open the safe.
It was on Wednesday, the 16th October at about 3 o'clock. I was with Philemon Tebele and Solomon Dlamini. We proceeded to the house directly, directed by Joshua Ghatle. He also gave us a car, used to travel. Philemon was the driver of the car.
When arriving at the house we find the white male, unknown to me. We talked to him and we grabbed him. We did not have any firearm. By the time we grabbed him he fell down and Solomon took a piece of wood and struck him on the head, demanding that he must open the safe. After that we find that the time he fell down he was fainting.
We did not get the keys of the safe. We ...(indistinct) leave him be, him being collapsed and go away. When leaving the house, Solomon took a watch in the kitchen. We left the house and proceed to give Joshua his car.
After four days Solomon Dlamini was arrested by the police and gave them information until I was arrested and Philemon. The police informed us that the person we left in the house collapsed, is dead. They are arrested us for murdering a white and take his watch.
It was not the first time when Joshua sent us to rob money. We used to rob money and give it to him. He said he's taking money for PAC organisation.
We have been taken to Pretoria Supreme Court, where I've been sentenced to 25 years and Solomon was sentenced to death sentence. Solomon was hanged during 1988.
I am asking amnesty from the relative of the deceased and from the Committee of Truth and Reconciliation, even if the deceased was not killed by me. I know and understand the contents of this declaration. I have no objection to taking the prescribed oath."
...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, we'll have to interrupt you unfortunately. We're going to stand down just very briefly to allow the technicians to adjust the system, there's some technical problem. We'll stand down briefly.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
MACHINE SWITCHED ON
CHAIRPERSON: I'm told that the technical problem has been attended to, so you may proceed with your evidence-in-chief.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. Chairperson, I will start with paragraph 2 of his affidavit.
Mr Masilo, you say in paragraph 2 of your affidavit that you have been a supporter of PAC from 1977, can you tell the Committee what do you know about PAC, that resulted you being its supporter.
MR MASILO: I became interested in the PAC politics in 1977. I grew up being the supporter of the PAC, but I became a naughty boy in 1978 and I was arrested, but when I came back in 1985, I met Joshua Ghatle, together with Solomon Dlamini. We met at the funeral. That is where Solomon Dlamini introduced me to Joshua Ghatle. I explained to them that I want to be the full member of the PAC and I also want to be the cadre of the PAC, and then he said to me they will give me a task to do before I could be the member of the PAC.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Mr Masilo, my question is, what attracted you to PAC, that you became its supporter?
MR MASILO: I was interested in the PAC politics.
MR MBANDAZAYO: How did you know about PAC in 1977?
MR MASILO: When I grew up I used to hear people talking about the PAC.
MR MBANDAZAYO: What were they saying about PAC?
MR MASILO: They used to say the white people have taken our land from our fathers. They used to say that white people have taken the black people's land.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all you heard about PAC?
MR MASILO: And many other things as well.
MR MBANDAZAYO: What were those other things?
MR MASILO: There was a problem at Mabopane and it was said that we should burn the businesses' cars belonging to the white people when they entered the township.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Masilo, was there a branch of PAC in Tembisa in 1977?
MR MASILO: I started becoming the supporter of the PAC in 1977 at Mabopane. I went to Tembisa because of Joshua Ghatle.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Was there a branch in Mabopane of PAC?
MR MASILO: No, there were no branches but only the supporters.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now I take it that you were supporting PAC, did they tell you about the leadership of PAC, at that time?
MR MASILO: Yes, they did, they told me.
MR MBANDAZAYO: What did they say, who was the President of PAC at that time?
MR MASILO: They said the President was the late Zeff Motopeng.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now let's go now to 1985, paragraph 3 Chairperson, when you joined PAC as a member at Mabopane now. You were a supporter from '77 until 1985, now you joined PAC as a member in 1985, in which branch did you join PAC as a member now?
MR MASILO: I joined in Mabopane from Joshua Ghatle.
MR MBANDAZAYO: After how long had you been released from prison that you joined PAC?
MR MASILO: It was about two months after I was released.
ADV SANDI: What did you go to prison for at that stage?
MR MASILO: I was very naughty at that time, I didn't know anything about the PAC at that time, I was just a naughty boy.
ADV SANDI: What were you found guilty of when you went to prison?
MR MASILO: I was involved in mugging.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I just complete this?
You say that you were naughty at that time and you knew nothing of the PAC, now what time is this that you are referring to?
MR MASILO: That is from the '70's, then in 1978 I was sent to jail.
CHAIRPERSON: Now when was it that you knew nothing about the PAC?
MR MASILO: That is starting from '73, that is when I started being a naughty boy. I did ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Until - I'm sorry, Mr Interpreter, carry on. You were not finished.
INTERPRETER: ... until I was arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were a naughty boy from '73 until '78?
MR MASILO: Let me put it this way. From '73, '74 and '75, and in 1977 I started having interest in the politics of the PAC, like I've explained before, but then I was still naughty at that time.
CHAIRPERSON: Is this now just before you went to prison, you became aware of the PAC?
MR MASILO: That is correct, I knew about the PAC from 1977, but in 1978 I was sent to jail.
CHAIRPERSON: So if you say that, "At that time I knew nothing about the PAC", are you talking about the time before 1977, when you became aware of the PAC? Or don't I understand you correctly?
MR MASILO: Yes, I used to hear about the PAC during those years, but it's only in 1977 that I heard more about the PAC.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes now, then it seems that you were imprisoned in '78, were you then in prison till 1985?
MR MASILO: Yes, in January.
CHAIRPERSON: January '85. And then a few months after that you joined the branch in Mabopane, of the PAC?
MR MASILO: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Now before the time that you joined in early 1985, I assume, were you involved in any PAC activities?
MR MASILO: Yes, but I was never arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: What sort of PAC activities were you involved in prior to '85, when you joined as a member?
MR MASILO: They used to tell us to burn the cars in the township, so I used to participate in the burning of the cars. I also burnt my brother's car.
CHAIRPERSON: Anything else, any other PAC activities that you were involved in, prior to joining as a member in 1985?
MR MASILO: That is all, Chairperson. I started in ...
INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon, Chairperson, he wasn't actually referring to his brother's car, but the car belonging to the brewery.
CHAIRPERSON: To the breweries, alright. Yes, thank you Mr Mbandazayo, we've taken it up to where you were last, just to complete the picture. I think you were in '85.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson. Thank you, I'm indebted to the Members of the Committee, Chairperson.
Now Mr Masilo, you told the Committee that you joined now formally the PAC in 1985, am I correct that you said you joined it in Mabopane?
MR MASILO: That's correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Was there a branch of PAC at Mabopane?
MR MASILO: There were supporters at that time, there was no PAC office, the office was in Tembisa.
MR MBANDAZAYO: So where did you get your membership card?
MR MASILO: Joshua Ghatle took my photo and took it to Tembisa office.
MR MBANDAZAYO: So there was an office of PAC in Tembisa?
MR MASILO: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And this office was a well known PAC office in Tembisa?
MR MASILO: That is correct.
ADV SANDI: I'm sorry, Mr Mbandazayo.
Where exactly at Tembisa was this office?
MR MASILO: I don't know in which section in Tembisa, but they said to me that the office was in Tembisa. I heard that from Joshua Ghatle.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now just before that, did you have any meetings of PAC, as supporters there?
MR MASILO: Yes, we used to have meetings in Mabopane.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And I take it that you discussed about PAC?
MR MASILO: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know in 1985 when you joined PAC in 1985, who was the President of the PAC?
MR MASILO: They told me that it was Zeff Motopeng.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now did you know ... (intervention)
ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo, if I can just make a follow-up on that.
Did they tell you where the head offices of the PAC were in exile?
MR MASILO: Yes, they told me.
ADV SANDI: Where was that?
MR MASILO: They said it was in Lusaka.
ADV SANDI: What happened to your membership card?
MR MASILO: They took my photo and they said they are going to make a membership card for me.
ADV SANDI: Did you eventually get the membership card?
MR MASILO: No.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Masilo, did you know that in 1985 the PAC was banned?
MR MASILO: Yes, I heard that.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now how were you operating now above ground as supporters of PAC and having an office in Tembisa and yet PAC was banned at that time?
MR MASILO: Joshua Ghatle was the person who used to give us instructions as supporters, together with Solomon Dlamini.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now let's come to this incident now, who told you to go to this place and rob this place?
MR MASILO: He did not say we should go and rob, he said to us if we happened to get money there, we should take it.
MR MBANDAZAYO: So what was your purpose of going to this place?
MR MASILO: We were going to kill.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And how many of you were told to go and do that?
MR MASILO: We were two.
MR MBANDAZAYO: So it was yourself and Solomon Dlamini?
MR MASILO: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you get the third person, Philemon Tebela?
MR MASILO: We were using his car.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Was he a member of PAC also, or a supporter of PAC?
MR MASILO: No, he wasn't.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did he know your purpose of going there?
MR MASILO: No, he did not know.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now in your affidavit you told the Committee that the car, you were given this car by Joshua Ghatle, now you are saying that the car belonged to Philemon Tebele, which one is correct?
MR MASILO: The truth is what I am saying now. This car belonged to Philemon Tebele and after we were given instructions by Ghatle, I told him that we will need a car and the only person that I knew who had a car was Philemon Tebele.
MR MBANDAZAYO: So you went to this place, and what did you say to Philemon Tebele, your purpose of going there?
MR MASILO: We did not tell him anything, I just told him that we are going to town and we are going to get our money from that white person.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now tell the Committee what did you do on your arrival at this place.
MR MASILO: I hired the car from Philemon Tebele. We were heading to that place. When we arrived there we left the driver in the car. I entered the place together with Solomon Dlamini. When we entered the yard, Solomon Dlamini was the person who was talking to the deceased, they were talking about business matters, and at that moment he hit this white man on the head with a block of wood. I also took that block of wood and hit this man on the head as well.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you kill him?
MR MASILO: Yes, we did.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, were you armed when you went, or were you not armed?
MR MASILO: We were not armed.
MR MBANDAZAYO: How were you going to kill him?
MR MASILO: That is how Joshua Ghatle wanted to test me, because he said before I could be the cadre of the PAC, he's going to give me a task to perform, a task like this one.
MR MBANDAZAYO: I heard that you hear that you have heard about that, but what I'm saying is that you were given a task to go and kill this white person, how were you going to kill him when you were not armed with anything, you went there with bare hands?
MR MASILO: Joshua Ghatle together with Solomon Dlamini were members of the PAC at that time, I was the recruit, so I went there with Dlamini and he was instructing me, he was showing me what to do but he was also not armed.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, Mr Masilo. Now are you telling the Committee that Mr Ghatle, Joshua Ghatle told you that in order to join PAC you have first to kill a white person? It's what he told you. Before you can be a member of PAC.
MR MASILO: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now after you have struck him with this piece of wood, what did you do thereafter?
MR MASILO: Solomon Dlamini instructed me to lock him in the garage and from there we went to the servant's room and we knocked at the door. They tried to chase us and we ran away to our car, where Philemon Tebele was, and from there we drove to Mabopane. In Mabopane we left Philemon Tebele's car. We went to meet Joshua Ghatle. He told us where we are going to get him when we come back, and we found him at that place and we told him that we have accomplished our mission. The explanation was done by Dlamini and that is when he said to me. "We will need your photo, because when we send your application forms they should be accompanied by your photo". That is when I gave him my photo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: You did not take anything from that place after you had allegedly killed this white person? Nothing was taken, except that you just killed him and you left?
MR MASILO: The other thing that I remember was that Solomon Dlamini took a wrist watch, that is the only thing that I remember.
MR MBANDAZAYO: What did you do with the wrist watch? What happened to it?
MR MASILO: He gave that watch to the driver as a payment for taking us to town.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now finally, Mr Masilo, can you tell the Committee why the Committee should grant you amnesty in respect of this incident.
MR MASILO: Yes, because I've killed that white man and because of that I think I should be pardoned and this white man was not killed by Joshua Dlamini, but was killed by me. And the other reason is that what I'm saying here before this Committee is the truth.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Chairperson. Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Mtanga, have you got any questions?
MS MTANGA: I've got a few, Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Masilo, in your affidavit and also in your testimony here today you indicated that there was a PAC branch office in Tembisa, is that so? In 1985.
MR MASILO: Yes, said so but I've never been to that office, I was only told that there was an office in Tembisa.
MS MTANGA: Are you aware that the PAC was banned in 1985 and they couldn't have had offices inside the country?
MR MASILO: That is how they told me. I was told by Joshua Ghatle and Solomon Dlamini.
MS MTANGA: You've also testified that you went to this house in Pretoria, not to rob, but to kill this person, do you still maintain that you went to this house to kill and not to rob?
MR MASILO: Yes, we went there to kill.
MS MTANGA: Why did you then on page 8, paragraph 4 of your affidavit, state that you were given orders by this Ghatle to go and take money from this white male in a certain house in Pretoria?
MR MASILO: Yes, he said to us if we see money in that house we should take it, but he did not instruct us to go and rob, but he said if we see money we should take it.
MS MTANGA: But why in your affidavit on that paragraph, why didn't you say that he ordered you to go and kill, you say you were ordered to go and take money from the house? There's no mention of a killing there, of an order to kill.
MR MASILO: Yes, it is written like that here, but it is not how I put it.
MS MTANGA: On page 9, paragraph 10, you further state that
"It was not for the first when Joshua Ghatle sent us to rob money. We used to rob money and give to him. He said he's taking money for PAC organisation."
You said you've done this several times before. Do you remember telling the person who was writing the statement that?
MR MASILO: May you please repeat.
MS MTANGA: In paragraph 10 of your affidavit to the Commission, you stated that
"It was not for the first time when Joshua Ghatle sent us to rob money. We used to rob money and give to him. He said he's taking money for PAC organisation."
What I'm asking you is, is this what you said?
MR MASILO: No I told that person to write about the brewery, I never mentioned anything about money to him. The only thing that I remember is that we were given instructions to go there and kill but if we see money we should take it.
MS MTANGA: Mr Masilo, even in court this is the evidence that you gave, that you had a key to safe, which clearly indicated that the intention was to rob, there's no mention that you were given orders to kill. The reason for you going to that house in Pretoria was to rob. Why are you changing your evidence here today?
MR MASILO: No, I'm not changing my evidence. I never had the keys to the safe and I have never talked about these keys.
MS MTANGA: If the orders were to kill, why didn't Ghatle give you a weapon or something to use? How were you going to kill this person?
MR MASILO: He said to me we are going to do this during the day, not at night.
ADV SANDI: Were you not expecting some resistance from the person you were about to attack, the deceased or whoever he stayed with in that house?
MR MASILO: The way the instructions came from Joshua Ghatle was that they have reconnoitred the place before, they've gone there to reconnoitre the place before they came to me and they told me that there's only man living in that house.
ADV SANDI: Did they tell you that this man had no firearm at his house, or some kind of a weapon to put up a resistance when you come and attack him?
MR MASILO: They didn't tell me about the weapons, because Solomon Dlamini said that we will find in his garage busy with his businesses.
MS MTANGA: There was so many whites that you could have killed, why did you specifically choose this one?
MR MASILO: It is not me who made the choice, the choice was made by Solomon Dlamini and Joshua Ghatle, so I was just sent there to do that task as a test.
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Has the Panel got any questions?
JUDGE MOTATA: Just one, Chairperson.
Were you going to kill this white man with your bare hands? Is that the test you were put under or through?
MR MASILO: Yes, that is how they put it to me.
JUDGE MOTATA: How were you going to do it?
MR MASILO: I did it the way they wanted it to be done.
JUDGE MOTATA: No, no, I say how? Were you given instructions precisely how to do it, or you had to use your discretion how to kill him with your bare hands?
MR MASILO: No, we used our discretion.
JUDGE MOTATA: So at the time when you were naughty, during the '80s, and you were eventually arrested, you were arrested at the age of 19, wouldn't that be more-or-less the age at which you were arrested?
MR MASILO: I was 19 years old in 1978, but I do not remember well, but I started my prison term in 1978.
JUDGE MOTATA: And when you heard about the PAC before going to prison, how old were you when you heard about the PAC?
MR MASILO: I do not remember, but at the moment I'm 42 years old.
JUDGE MOTATA: Did you attend school?
MR MASILO: Yes, I attended school up to standard 4.
JUDGE MOTATA: What year was that?
MR MASILO: I think it can be '74 or '75.
JUDGE MOTATA: When you heard people talking about the PAC, what did you hear about the PAC?
MR MASILO: They used to say that the white people in this country have robbed our fathers and they took everything from our fathers.
JUDGE MOTATA: In the township, or where did they take these things from your fathers, because I believe you were in Mabopane? Where did they take this land?
MR MASILO: They said in South Africa.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Advocate Sandi?
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.
Was this man dead when you left him?
MR MASILO: They way he fell he looked like somebody who has already died.
ADV SANDI: Did you satisfy yourselves that he was in fact dead?
MR MASILO: Yes, the way we hit him we were satisfied that he was dead.
ADV SANDI: Why did you not tell Solomon not to take the wrist watch? That was not part of the order from the person who had sent you there to attack the deceased.
MR MASILO: Joshua Ghatle together with Solomon had a discussion and I did not hear what they were discussing and I could not stop him because he was already the member at that time.
ADV SANDI: Do you know any motto of the PAC?
MR MASILO: Yes, I do.
ADV SANDI: What is the motto of the PAC?
MR MASILO: They used to say "One bullet, one settler".
ADV SANDI: Are you sure?
MR MASILO: Yes.
ADV SANDI: When was the PAC formed?
MR MASILO: Well I don't know.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, re-examination?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. Though I note some of the aspects, I will not re-exam, but just for the sake of completeness of this matter I would like these matters to be raised.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
FURTHER-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.
Mr Masilo, do you know what PAC stands for?
MR MASILO: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee what PAC stands for.
MR MASILO: It stands for Pan Africanist Congress.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you repeat it.
MR MASILO: It stands Pan African Congress.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you know what APLA stands for?
MR MASILO: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, tell the Committee.
MR MASILO: It stands for African Liberation Army.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Masilo, in paragraph 8(b) of your affidavit you state that you worked for APLA for almost four years, under APLA for four years, can you tell the ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Where is that, Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, at the application form, Chairperson, page 2, paragraph 8(b).
MR MBANDAZAYO
"I have worked for the PAC for four years."
Which were those years which you worked under APLA for four years?
MR MASILO: No, I don't know anything about this, I only know 1977 and 1985. Maybe the person who was writing here for me did not understand me well.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Also at paragraph 10(b) at page, Chairperson ...(intervention)
JUDGE MOTATA: Could we just have completeness here, Mr Mbandazayo, if you have regard to paragraph 7(b) on page 1.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes thank you, Chairperson, I just skipped it, because also I wanted to raise it. Thank you.
Also as the Member of the Committee correctly put, at paragraph 7(b):
"State capacity in which you served the organisation ...(indistinct) or liberation movement."
You said:
"Three to four years."
So we take it that the Pan African Congress you served it for a period of three to four years and also 8(b) you also mention these four years again, under APLA.
MR MASILO: As I've already explained, I think the person who wrote it, they did not understand me well.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Who completed this application form for you?
MR MASILO: It was one of our PAC comrades.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Where? Where was he?
MR MASILO: We were in jail.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if I can move on.
At 10(b) your justification regarding such omissions associated with political objectives, from what is written there, there's nothing which you mention that it has anything to do with the killing but you only wanted money for APLA. There's no mention there of anything about killing.
MR MASILO: What I know is that we were given the instruction to go and kill but if we come across any money we should take it, but our main intention was to go there and kill.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Advocate Sandi?
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair, if I may just follow one thing.
You say you went there to kill, who was to be killed?
MR MASILO: The white person.
ADV SANDI: Yes, but when you went to the servant's quarters, was it still your intention to kill?
MR MASILO: No, we were only going to kill that white person.
ADV SANDI: Why did you go to the servant's quarters?
MR MASILO: I don't know why Solomon Dlamini wanted us to go there, because we have hit this white person he went to the servant's quarters. I don't know why he went there.
ADV SANDI: Yes, but why did you not say to him, "We have finished our task, we don't have to go to this servant's quarters", why did you not tell Solomon that?
MR MASILO: I could not do it because I would say he was my senior, I was under his instruction. That is Solomon Dlamini.
ADV SANDI: Yes, but after you had left the place, why did you not ask him by way of a review, why did you not say to him, "Why did you want to go to this servant's quarters, we have killed this old man by that time"?
MR MASILO: I did not think about that, I was only thinking about the person we have just killed.
ADV SANDI: By the way, do you know the first President of the PAC?
MR MASILO: They told me about him but I never saw him.
ADV SANDI: Do you know the name, who the first President of the PAC was?
MR MASILO: They said it was Japhta.
ADV SANDI: Japhta who?
MR MASILO: Well I do not remember, but I think it's Masemola.
ADV SANDI: But tell me, why is it that there are so many basic things you don't know about your organisation? Are you sure you were a supporter of the PAC? You don't know when this organisation was formed, you don't know who was the first President, you don't know so many basic things about your own organisation.
MR MASILO: Yes, I was and I'm still a member of the PAC, but I do agree that there are many things that I do not know about the PAC.
ADV SANDI: Do you know why the PAC was formed in that year which you don't even know?
MR MASILO: Well I do not know why it was formed.
ADV SANDI: You don't know why it was formed, okay. Do you know anything about POQO, in relation to the history of the PAC?
MR MASILO: No, I don't know, I'm a Tswana, I don't know POQO.
ADV SANDI: Do you know what this POQO means? I mean any member of the PAC would tell you what POQO means. You don't know what POQO means, you don't know that?
MR MASILO: I've explained that I was on my way to exile when I was arrested, that is why I don't know many things about the PAC.
ADV SANDI: You don't know that POQO means, "We alone"? You don't know that. As a member of the PAC you don't even know such a basic thing about the PAC.
MR MASILO: I am the supporter of the PAC and when I was arrested I had not yet received my membership card. I love the organisation, but I do not know everything about the PAC, because I was on my way to exile to join the PAC Army and that is where I was going to be told everything about the organisation.
ADV SANDI: So you're now telling us that you did not really join the PAC Army?
MR MASILO: That is correct.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Just one aspect, Mr Masilo. When you went to the house, were you aware whether there was a safe in the house or not?
MR MASILO: No, I did not know.
CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Joshua Ghatle not tell you that you should attack the owner of the house and you should demand that he must open the safe?
MR MASILO: No, he never said that to us.
CHAIRPERSON: And after Solomon Dlamini struck the owner of the house on the head with a piece of wood, did he demand that the owner should open the safe?
MR MASILO: No, we hit the owner of this house inside the garage and there was no safe in that garage.
CHAIRPERSON: Was your attention drawn to the fact that in the affidavit which you have confirmed, in paragraphs 4 and 6 you deal with this question surrounding the safe and in paragraph 4 you actually say that Joshua Ghatle, amongst other things, said that you must speak politely to the owner of that house, the while male as he is referred to in your affidavit, until you grab him and demand him to open the safe? Where you aware of that in the affidavit?
MR MASILO: Yes, I do understand now when you read it, but it is not what I said to the person who was writing for me.
CHAIRPERSON: And then just to complete what appears in the affidavit, in paragraph 6, and I'm looking at the hand-written, the original one, I'm not looking at the typed one, there's often errors that creep in in the typing, on page 11 of the record on the top of the page, that is where paragraph 6 continues, that clause at the top of the record, page 11 says, referring to Dlamini
"He took a piece of wood and struck him on the head, demanding that he must open the safe."
Now have you got any idea how this happened, how all these references to the safe was included in your affidavit?
MR MASILO: No, I don't know. I was explaining to the person who was writing for me what happened at that day and he was writing for me as I was explaining. And I was saying to him that I heard in court that they're talking about the safe. They were not talking about the gun or any other thing. So I think this person wrote what he was thinking. I really do not understand why he wrote this.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Masilo. Mr Mbandazayo, is there anything further that you want to deal with?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson, that's all, that's the evidence for the applicant. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms Mtanga, are you presenting anything?
MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, on the merits of the application.
MR MBANDAZAYO ADDRESSES: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, I would like just to highlight a few points. I think the evidence of the applicant is enough for you to reach a fair and a just decision in this matter, but I would like, since I posed certain questions to the applicant just for the completeness, to explain to the Committee some of the questions I posed.
I asked the applicant about the President of PAC in 1977, whether he knew the President and he said yes, and I asked him and he said it was Zeff Motopeng. Chairperson, definitely it was not Zeff Motopeng at that time, it was Robert Mangaliso Sobukwe. He was still alive, though there was an Acting-President outside, Potlako Lebalo, but at the time Sobukwe was still at the helm, before his death he was President.
ADV SANDI: You're talking about 1978 - Mr Sobukwe?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, he died in 1978, in '77 he was still alive.
Then after that I asked him who was the President in 1985. Chairperson, in 1985 the PAC did not have any President. After the death of Sobukwe, Lebalo acted and after that he was deposed as President of the PAC and the post remained vacant until 1986, when Zeff Motopeng took over as the President of the PAC. So in 1985, from 1980, to be exact, Chairperson, up until 1985 the post of President of PAC was vacant. PAC was ruled by ...(indistinct), thereafter the Central Committee, Johnny Depokela took over as Chairman of the Central Committee, until his death in 1984 and then Johnson Mlambo took over in January 1985, as the Chairman of the Central Committee. So it was ruled by the Central Committee at that period. So I wanted to explain that, Chairperson, since I raised those questions.
Of course I also asked him about the PAC, what it stands for and, Chairperson, deliberately I asked the question because PAC members are very sensitive about that, when you say that it's their Pan African Congress, they want you to complete, their Pan Africanist Congress. Definitely a member of the PAC is very sensitive to that, saying he's a Pan African Congress member.
CHAIRPERSON: That same reference appears in the application form.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: It was apparently completed by another PAC member.
MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(indistinct) and a PAC member is very sensitive to that. And also the APLA, Chairperson, is well known as Azanian People's Liberation Army.
Chairperson, as I indicated that I think it's enough, Chairperson, because there are various aspects which I feel that our case cannot be taken any further regarding some of the answers and the anomalies which appear. For instance, ...(indistinct) my first time that before you can join PAC you have to kill somebody, that's the first time, I do confess to that. So Chairperson, unfortunately I cannot take our case any further than that.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, we've heard that sort of culture in prison gangs, for example, some criminal gangs operate, apparently, along that sort of basis where you must prove your worth before you can join them, by committing some crime. But it is quite a novel concept in the realm of the liberation parties, as it's become known through the work of the Commission at least.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Mtanga, have you got any submissions on the merits of the application?
MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson, I will leave this matter in your hands.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, that concludes the formalities, formal aspect of the amnesty application before us. We will consider the application. We will consider the evidence and the submissions that were made, as well as the bundle of documents that were placed before us and we will formulate a decision as soon as the circumstances permit, but at this stage we will reserve the decision in this matter. Thank you.
Mr Masilo, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, do you want us to take the tea adjournment at this stage?
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson. The Moti matter was by agreement postponed until tomorrow morning I assume?
MS MTANGA: Yes, that is so, Chairperson, and today we'll only be dealing with the application of Thapelo Maseko.
CHAIRPERSON: Maseko. So that's the remaining one on today's roll?
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Let's take the tea adjournment at this stage, for fifteen minutes, and when we reconvene we'll deal with the matter of Maseko. We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
