CHAIRPERSON: The next matter that we have are the amnesty applications of Thwala and Ramapomane. Thwala 's reference number is AM5294/97 and Rampomane, I'm sorry, is AM5297/97. The Leader of Evidence is still Ms Mtanga. The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record and then on behalf of the applicants, Mr Koopedi will you put yourself on record?
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. My name is Brian Koopedi. I appear before you Chairperson on behalf of the two applicants in this matter, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything that you want to put on record, or are you ready to proceed?
MR KOOPEDI: Well, Chairperson, I am ready to proceed, but perhaps one should put on record my indebtedness and gratitude to this Honourable Committee to allow us to appear before it, and also to allow us to proceed with this matter at this late hour. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: No, it's a pleasure, it's always a pleasure to have you here Mr Koopedi. Who will be the first applicant?
MR KOOPEDI: The first applicant, Chairperson, will be Mr Thwala. He's ready to be sworn in, Chairperson.
GEORGE NKOSINATI THWALA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. I'm just not sure whether the bundle you have is similar to mine, Chairperson. I have a much bigger bundle Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I always start on paginated page 135, that's the application form of Mr Thwala and it runs to 153, so 135 to 153.
MR KOOPEDI: I'm happy, Chairperson, it's the same pagination Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very good.
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Mr Thwala, is it - I'm showing to you a document which is labelled page 135, it's an application form. Is this your application form?
MR THWALA: It is.
MR KOOPEDI: And at the back of that form on page 140, just above the words deponent, that is your signature, is that your signature?
MR THWALA: It is.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that you are appearing before this Honourable Committee for the killing of one Monde Mphateni?
MR THWALA: Indeed it is.
MR KOOPEDI: Now at the time of this man's death, at the time of Monde Mphateni's death, were you a member of a political organisation and if so, which political organisation?
MR THWALA: It was African National Congress.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, you have stated that this incident occurred in Botswana, that is in your application form on page 136, Chairperson, paragraph 9. You have stated that this has happened in Botswana, is that correct?
MR THWALA: Indeed it is.
MR KOOPEDI: Will you briefly tell this Honourable Committee what happened?
MR THWALA: Very briefly. I think in 81 we had already been advised by our Headquarters in Lusaka of the possibilities of an imminent attack which was ...(indistinct) as to what, but us being in a front area, which is what Botswana was, was considered to say we could have an invasion and/or any other acts emanating from the Security Forces of the South African Government at the time and then towards this end, we were instructed to be on maximum vigilance and to maintain the entire area's security.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Let's talk about Monde Mphateni. Who was Monde Mphateni?
MR THWALA: He was one of the operatives who was trained, recruited, trained ...(intervention)
MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you mean an ANC operative?
MR THWALA: Yes, ANC operative, trained also by myself in the handling of firearms, on security and also on intelligence, to conduct operations for ourselves within South Africa.
MR KOOPEDI: And what led to him being killed?
MR THWALA: What had happened is that we understood at some stage, never should start off and say that, you will recall that by that time, we had already become accustomed, or rather aware that the enemy at the time had already embarked on a program which was to turn some of our people into what we now refer to as Askaris and at the time, I think Vlakplaas was, I think at it's ...(indistinct) stages. I may not have personally have been fully conversant with the finer details of the entire issue, but I knew we were - there was a process by the enemy to turn our people against ourselves, particularly those that had served the movement. I refer to the ANC when I say the movement.
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, I need you to get to the point where you explain to this Honourable Committee what led to the killing of Monde Mphateni whom you have already told the Committee that he was a trained ANC operative.
MR THWALA: Well, he came, he operated from inside the country as South Africa and we got information to the fact that he had been arrested after on of the other colleagues, Joe, had been arrested.
MR KOOPEDI: Are you referring to Joe Mamasela?
MR THWALA: It is Mamasela, yes, so when we heard of the arrest, again reports reached us to say that they'd already been released and were seen around Soweto, which was very uncomfortable as to how come they were not charged or anything, because we believed that if they were arrested, there would be possibilities of them being charged and sent to prison, were very clear, but suddenly that did not happen, so we had inquired of them to come over, to come for consultations. They never did, but they were again some few weeks later, spotted in Lobatsi, in Selibwe Pikwe and nobody knew how they'd arrived there.
MR KOOPEDI: Is Selibwe Pikwe in South Africa?
MR THWALA: No, it is in Botswana.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you. Please proceed.
MR THWALA
Units there reported that they had spotted them there and they went over and picked them up and instructions that were given to them was that they should apprehend them and bring them down to Gaberone, where our operational Headquarters was. This was subsequently done and on arrival in Gaberone, I was made to understand that they found them such attaché cases and inside them I think they had pistols fitted with silencers, with a lot of ammunition, you know, bullets which were not clear exactly what they had brought them to - you know, because they never came to Botswana with arms in the past, they would only come as they were and go back in whatever form.
Now on their arrival and a lot of contradictory stories that they were telling to explain those weapons, on arrival we took Monde and put him, separated him from Joe to interrogate him. He then broke to say that they actually had come here because they already knew the units in the various cities around Gaberone. I'm referring to Pikwe, Gaberone and Lobatsi. Their task was to come and wipe us all out and proceed the following morning. They were to have - their last point of call would have been Lobatsi and that's where they would have spent the night. We took Monde to go and point out the house in question, where they were going to rendezvous for the night, to await the borders to open in the morning. We went there. He allegedly could no longer recall the precise details of the house when we were there. On our way back around ...(indistinct) he then asked to relieve himself. We stopped and came out of the car and I don't know what happened actually in terms of searching because I think I should have endeavoured to thoroughly search him, but I assumed that the unit that had brought them in had done their job. He somehow - I just saw him already with a pistol. I'm not sure where he whipped it out from, whether was it from genital area, or what, but I would presume the searching of him physically apparently was not done. You know I think that whole commotion, I think whilst he was still trying to wonder what actually is happening, two shots rang out and he fell.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you shoot him? the two shots, were they from you?
MR THWALA: No, they were not from myself, they were from my colleague.
MR KOOPEDI: Who's this colleague?
MR THWALA: Martin, my co-colleague.
MR KOOPEDI: And what happened thereafter?
MR THWALA: Well after he had been shot, there was debate what do we do? Do we - because I realised he died on the spot, we debated ...(indistinct) but I then said: "Look, maybe the first thing is let's", what do they say - "ensure that we hide his identity so that he cannot be traced immediately as to you know his identity as to who he was" and we poured him with petrol, we drained the car and we poured him with petrol and we set him alight and left, went back to Gaberone.
MR KOOPEDI: Now if Martin was to come here and say: "I actually did not shoot Monde, it is someone else who was with us who shot Monde, can you dispute that?
MR THWALA: Well, I'd have difficulty with that. I would have difficulty with that.
MR KOOPEDI: Who are you referring to as Martin?
MR THWALA: I'm referring to my colleague here.
MR KOOPEDI: Your co-applicant?
MR THWALA: My co-applicant.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, sorry. How many were you on the scene at that stage? It was yourself and Martin.
MR THWALA: It was the three of us. Well it was myself, Martin and Martin Sere, the two Martins, Martin Sere is since deceased.
MR KOOPEDI: And you say you then tried to hide the identity of this person.
MR THWALA: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: What did you do with his body?
MR THWALA: We just left it on the side of the road.
MR KOOPEDI: And what happened? Were you ever arrested for this incident?
MR THWALA: Ja, we were subsequently arrested by the Botswana police and charged with murder and we got an acquittal.
MR KOOPEDI: What happened to the other person, Joe Mamasela?
MR THWALA: Well I should say, I think the following day we took, you know realising what had happened we couldn't go through the experience again, so we thought, we went up to Selibwe Pikwe to hand him over to the Ordinance people, who were supposed to interrogate him to actually find out which arms caches had been compromised, you know, handed over to the enemy. In Selibwe Pikwe we left him in the house with Martin and he did the same trick. He wished to go and relieve himself, went into the toilet, closed the door, went through the window and ran away and slept about three houses away from where we were. The following morning, under escort from the Police Commissioner, he went to the police. I think he then revealed the whole story and the escort had him safely back to South Africa and he became the askari that he was.
MR KOOPEDI: Now you've been advised that for you to qualify for amnesty, one of the things you need to do is to give full disclosure of all relevant facts to this Honourable Committee. Do you consider yourself having done that, having told this Honourable Committee the whole truth about the relevant facts?
MR THWALA: Absolutely.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, do you consider your action to have been politically motivated and if so, how so?
MR THWALA: I was a member of the African National Congress, I belonged to the Security part of the ...(indistinct), it was my responsibility to protect and assist in the securing of members of the movement. There was a lot of ...(indistinct) and activities that were happening, we were people at war. We were in a state of war. We were under threat in Botswana and even in this instance in self defence we had to defend the movement and defend our own lives too and therefore the shooting thereof, was not necessarily a premeditated action, but simply an act of defence.
MR KOOPEDI: Now finally, is there anything that you gained materially, that is yourself personally, is there anything you gained materially for having participated or being involved in the killing of Monde Mphateni?
MR THWALA: On a personal level, no.
MR KOOPEDI: And perhaps just for the record sake, the name Monde Mphateni, was this a pseudonym, was this a real name, do you have an idea?
MR THWALA: It was his real name.
MR KOOPEDI: It was his real name?
MR THWALA: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you no further questions and that will be the evidence-in-chief Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Mtanga, any questions?
MS MTANGA: I have one question Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Thwala, why was it necessary for you to hide Mr Mphateni's identity after you'd killed him?
MR THWALA: Well clearly for two reason. One, the enemy must not get to know exactly what has happened to their own people. They came here on a mission. We had to ensure that they remain in the dark as to - they should not get any immediate report as to what has happened to their agents.
MS MTANGA: Okay, you said two, so I thought you were going to give a second one.
MR THWALA: I beg your pardon.
MS MTANGA: You said there were two reasons, so I thought you were going to give me a second reason.
MR THWALA: Well, did I say two reasons?
MS MTANGA: Yes.
MR THWALA: Okay. I'm sorry, I may have just speaking, but I think the critical issue was that there shouldn't be any feedback that side and you know things must be kept under wraps.
MS MTANGA: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Has the Panel got any questions?
ADV SANDI: Yes, just one, Mr Chairman. I seem to recall Joe Mamasela having said at one of the hearings we had with him that his brother was necklaced in Botswana. Do you know if this particular Monde Mphateni, whether he was in any way related to Joe Mamasela?
MR THWALA: To the best of my knowledge, Your Lordship, they were not related and it was a misrepresentation of what actually happened.
ADV SANDI: I recall him to have said that that was precisely the reason why he decided to join the Security Police, because his brother, who was innocent, was necklaced. Well if you say this was not his brother, well maybe he's talking about some other incident, I don't know.
MR THWALA: Possibly yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Nothing, thank you. Re-examination, Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-exam thank you Chairperson and that concludes the evidence to be tendered on behalf of this application. With leave of the Honourable Committee, may I call the second applicant?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Thwala, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR THWALA: Thank you.
