CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We are going to start the proceedings. For the record it is Monday 31st July 2000. We are continuing with the session of the Amnesty Committee at the JISS Centre in Johannesburg. The Panel is constituted as will be apparent from the record. We would be commencing the proceedings this morning with the amnesty application of Sydney Patrick Kunene. The amnesty reference number is AM6224/97. I'm first just going to ask the legal representatives to put themselves on record on behalf of the applicant.
MR MAKONDO: I'm Zandida Makondo.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Makondo. And then on behalf of the victims?
MS VILAKAZI: Lindy Vilakazi on behalf of the next-of-kin of the deceased, Donald Mesi. Present here is Mrs Mpomda.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Vilakazi. And then the Leader of Evidence?
MS MTANGA: Lulama Mtanga. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Makondo, is there anything else that you want to raise or do you want your client to be sworn in to present his evidence?
MR MAKONDO: Thank you Chairperson. Before that perhaps after swearing him in I'd like to make an amendment. During consultation it became clear that the application form was not properly filled in. So for the clearer picture I would request that after taking an oath we will make those amendments.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, Mr Makondo. Mr Kunene, please switch on your microphone and just indicate are you hearing the interpretation?
MR KUNENE: Yes I can hear.
CHAIRPERSON: You can hear, okay, so you're fine then.
SYDNEY PATRICK KUNENE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makondo, you say that there is an amendment that you want to move for?
MR MAKONDO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, for the application form, annexure on page 3, 7(a), on the application form it's written I think "not applicable", Chairperson. Or it's not fully written, it's only written "African National Congress" but I want it to read that
"I was a member of the African National Congress".
And 7(b) thereof must read:
"I was an MK underground operative and a unit member of Koreas doing military combat work".
CHAIRPERSON: Okay go ahead?
MR MAKONDO: Thank you Chairperson. And 9a(i), it should read
"damage to property" only.
And (b) thereof, the names are Mr Tshabalala, Mr Mesi and another Mr Tshabalala. The first Mr Tshabalala, alongside,
"his lounge was partly burnt"
it was a description of the damage. Mr Mesi:
"part of the complex was burnt"
that's a shopping complex.
And the last Tshabalala:
"his car was burnt"
And under (c) are those names in that order, Mr Tshabalala, Mr Mesi and Mr Tshabalala again. We have two Tshabalala's
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) the last Tshabalala, what happened to him?
MR MAKONDO: His car was burnt.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MAKONDO: And 10(b)
"The aim was to threaten Black people who were seen as part of the apartheid regime, to scare them from carrying out the government actions."
The last one, 11(a), under offences which were committed. The damage of property as already stated in 9(a). And (b) thereof is orders wherefrom the Commander of the unit, Mr Mthembu, Norman Tedi. Tedi, T-E-D-Y.
ADV SANDI: The names of different persons or just one person with the three names?
MR MAKONDO: It's one person, Mthembu is the surname and the names are Norman Tedi. That will be all Chairperson, in terms of amendment, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, do you want to proceed with the evidence and get the applicant to confirm all of these amendments as well.
MR MAKONDO: Thank you Chairperson, if we could get the confirmation perhaps from the applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Very good, you may proceed with the evidence then.
EXAMINATION BY MR MAKONDO: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Kunene, firstly I would like you to briefly lay out your membership that you allege in the application forms. Which organisation did you belong to?
MR KUNENE: I was a member of the ANC, MK underground structure.
MR MAKONDO: And when did you join the structure?
MR KUNENE: I was a member from 1978, somewhere around there.
MR MAKONDO: And how did it come that you joined the structure, perhaps if you could explain?
MR KUNENE: I was recruited by Tedi, Comrade Tedi who is stated in what you call Mthembu.
MR MAKONDO: And the recruitment and the membership, how did it go about, can you explain in details as to how did it become about and how were you selected into the unit and what the unit was doing?
MR KUNENE: At first I was recruited to the Korea, that is to move or transport materials, be it books, be it weapons or anything from point A to point B. How Tedi came to notice that I was a qualified candidate, if I could put it that way, I don't know but at some point in time, I cannot remember how, what led us into that, we started talking about MK work and only that something had to be done to advance our struggle because that was immediately just after the June 16 uprising and all that and to say people could not come, that is the guerrillas could not come from outside and do everything. So one think led to the other until we have recruited formally to say that now this would be our work and all that and as to how, I think when as we were talking, I think he saw the commitment and said that we started making appointments to talk outside the many people who would be present in wherever and we started having these meetings in different places ultimately to what I thought was this place in Dube and where he pointed out clearly that he wanted us to start working for MK, he had been actually giving those instructions to start recruiting people and all that.
MR MAKONDO: How many were you?
MR KUNENE: We were three, that is two of us, he was the third person. It was myself and another comrade, Abe. So it would be three people, himself plus the two of us.
MR MAKONDO: And in your unit, the unit of three, which he was the Commander, what were your orders?
MR KUNENE: In the beginning, up to the beginning, that is around '78 up to around '83, I mean in that late '83, the orders were really to open what we'd call dead letter box, DLB's, put in material, move some material to another DLB to another. But around '83 when they had the local elections and stuff, he came back to us to say that people need not to participate in those elections and the best way to do that was to make sure that they are scared off and we had to do something about it and he was saying that he would come back to us to give more instructions after, we assumed, after he had actually consulted. And a few weeks after that he actually came with clear instructions as to what is to be done, without diverting from our main mission which was to conceal, move MK material from point A to B but there was this side thing that we had to do.
MR MAKONDO: So then '83 one was directly dominated at the elections that were coming?
MR KUNENE: Yes it was.
ADV SANDI: I suppose those will have been the Black Local Authority elections?
MR KUNENE: The Black Local Authority elections, yes.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
MR MAKONDO: Now after he had said that to you, did he come with any other information as to give direction?
MR KUNENE: Yes although at first we were more likely confused because we had weapons at our disposal. It was at first said that nobody should die in those actions because the whole idea would be to scare off those people. Now we had to think as to what would have been the best way of actually making sure that nobody participates and scare them off and all sorts of things and I think after consulting with whoever that he was consulting, he came back to say that the best route to follow would be to use petrol bombs.
MR MAKONDO: Now in scaring off, did you have targets that you'd directly attack or you were just doing it across?
MR KUNENE: No, we had specific targets. People who were prominent like the mayors, people who come for those elections, maybe in a small way police as well, although only one came became our target after one person was shot in Ndeni and that was the Tshabalala whose name is listed, the last person whose car we burnt. But yes, prominently people who were in the council, mayors, that is councillors and mayors.
MR MAKONDO: Were you looking at councillors who were councillors at that time or inclusive where people who were candidates then in for elections?
MR KUNENE: Mainly it was people who were to stand in for elections. Yes mainly it was those people but those were already councillors where, shall I say were not to escape because the whole idea was to have no one, everybody should be afraid of being a councillor or of standing in those elections.
MR MAKONDO: And in this instance did you have perhaps an area, a jurisdiction that you were confined to or you were doing it, you were picking people randomly?
MR KUNENE: We never specified but mainly we were operating in Soweto, but we never said they would be area bound. I suppose because we were actually - Soweto was in a league of everything, maybe that is why we confined ourselves to that but at no stage did we sit down and say we won't be to anywhere else but we operated mainly in Soweto. That includes Dobsonville ...(indistinct).
MR MAKONDO: And you said he is the one who came with the idea. Did you perhaps have an idea who gave him orders?
MR KUNENE: We just assumed that he was getting the orders from outside because he's the only person who had contact with comrades from outside. Even whatever was coming in, that is the material that we'd conceive before taking to other areas. If the person would know that there is a material which must be moved from point A to point B and at what time and all that, so we assumed that he had this contact with comrades from outside.
MR MAKONDO: I take it that what you implied that you would take orders without questioning, am I correct?
MR KUNENE: Yes we wouldn't question because the questioning would have meant many other things.
MR MAKONDO: And working in a unit of three, how did you go about executing whatever you had to do?
MR KUNENE: Because Abe and myself were not mobile and most of the time if not all of the time it was - Tedi would know where to go and what to do. If I were to say who would be the target he would actually go and make what we'd call a reconnaissance to say this place, it's at such and such a place, this is how we're going to be approaching it and when we leave this is how we would leave and if we throw in the petrol bombs, this is the place where to make sure it is not like the bedroom where people are sleeping. So we'd actually say when we approach from this angle, this is how the whole thing has to be conducted. So mainly we'd have information beforehand, before we go to the place.
MR MAKONDO: So yours was just to carry out what you've been told, orders to the letter.
MR KUNENE: It was just to carry out orders with no questions.
MR MAKONDO: Let's come to the first Mr Tshabalala, the burning of the house. I assume he was picked out because he was a councillor at that time, am I correct? A major?
MR KUNENE: Yes he was a mayor.
MR MAKONDO: And the feasibility study, who did it?
MR KUNENE: In fact in all the cases it was Tedi who would actually come and say this is the structure, this is the road, this is how we approach and all that. So he did what you call the - he did go and inspect if you want to use the word and do what you'd say the feasibility study to say this is how the house stands and this how we're going to be approaching it.
MR MAKONDO: Do you recall as to what the plan was, to approach from what angle and ...(indistinct) what angle?
MR KUNENE: Yes, if I remember, the house is more or less on the corner, almost from the main road, it's just straight in between so we approached from, if I say from the bottom I don't know if it would make sense but we were approaching it towards the main road, that is after operating with ...(indistinct) and the main road as our route of escape.
MR MAKONDO: And which part of the house was targeted?
MR KUNENE: It was the lounge, I think mainly the lounge.
MR MAKONDO: And where was it situated, relatively? Was it on the side of the street, side of the house?
MR KUNENE: It was on the side of the street, that's why it was actually much more easier for us to throw petrol bombs from the street.
MR MAKONDO: And why to throw a bomb particularly?
MR KUNENE: Because it was easier to burn it with a petrol bomb and then to get into the house because there was a question of dogs and you never know what was actually happening, it would actually take time and you make noise and wake up people and all that.
MR MAKONDO: So with the execution of this mission, the aim was basically to burn it?
MR KUNENE: Yes, although the aim was to scare the people inside the house and Tshabalala and particular and get the family to put in pressure to say he must get out of this. Yes, secondary to that was to burn the house, of course.
MR MAKONDO: How much assurance did you have that the person would be scared off?
MR KUNENE: They would follow the news like reading the newspapers, a few days after that they would hear the comments that they are actually scared and even what was circulating amongst the councillors and all that, the fear, that's how we would actually monitor and that's how we say that we were really achieving what we wanted to, which was to scare them off those elections.
MR MAKONDO: And with the second one, Mr Mesi, the complex.
MR KUNENE: Yes because we're not too sure as to where was the house and when Tedi came to say that he does have a shop in Dobsonville which was a shopping complex and it was clearly stated Bradon's shop, I think it was written Bradon and those, even that one, I think it had a grille or something so we went there and to say that if he does see his shop is being attacked and there were also pamphlets which were left around to say that he must actually leave, that is the council himself, to leave the council and all those who were working with him, they must also leave. So we burnt the shop partially because we saw that, I think it was the following day late in the afternoon, when we went past there to see that it was not like completely burnt and of course the pamphlets were left in the ...(indistinct).
MR MAKONDO: Would I be right if I say that you were basically damaging the property aiming at putting pressure on the people that you were targeting?
MR KUNENE: Yes because that was the aim.
MR MAKONDO: Was there any other method that you used to apply pressure on them?
MR KUNENE: No, our unit? No. Maybe other people as for us, the three, there's no other thing that we did to them.
MR MAKONDO: So as far as you are concerned, it was Tedi who picked the targets, who the people were and it was Tedi who was planning how to go about the carrying that out?
MR KUNENE: Yes it was him.
MR MAKONDO: Now the other Mr Tshabalala, the police officer, would I take it that a similar situation prevailed?
MR KUNENE: Yes.
MR MAKONDO: And what led to him being picked as a target?
MR KUNENE: There was young man who was shot by police around that area and he was like the only police, I think, that was still staying around there and people were afraid of him and all that and then when we met Tedi said that we must actually do something to scare him off so that he must actually leave and also to gain the confidence of the people on the ground, to say that there are people who are actually doing something about it.
MR MAKONDO: So with him why the ...(indistinct) on the house?
MR KUNENE: We were never too sure what was the set up. When Tedi came back he said there are so many people who stay in that house so chances were that even in the dining room there are people who could be sleeping there so chances are that if you throw in a petrol bomb there you would be likely to hurt the other people, they might even die. So the best thing was to target his car because he said he was sure, it's his personal car.
MR MAKONDO: So are you saying that you, in carrying out your mission, you were making sure that people's lives are not endangered?
MR KUNENE: Yes, we tried by all we could to avoid any injuries or loss of life.
MR MAKONDO: After executing your missions, what used to follow, what was the routine, what is it that you used to do?
MR KUNENE: We'd mainly monitor the news to check what is the feeling, what are the people discussing, especially those people we had actually targeted, that is the councillors and all that and those who still wanted to stand and all that and of course even in the other, what you call political circles, is to what people were thinking and all that because we felt with the pressure that we're giving, other people who put in the political pressure so that's how we'd monitor everything and get the results and all that.
MR MAKONDO: Were you able to see fruitful results immediately?
MR MAKONDO: In some cases yes because there were people who were beginning to doubt if it was a good idea to stand for elections. I think that year for instance it was a flop, those elections which were held. The turnout was less than 7 percent or somewhere around there if I can remember. I can't recall exactly but it was the lowest that they had so far.
MR MAKONDO: And saying having carried out these missions and with the aims, is there any other thing that you did to further your aims?
MR KUNENE: Yes, except for spreading pamphlets which was - I mean it didn't damage anybody or injured anyone, it was just to spread pamphlets around to say people must leave the council and those who were in the police force must leave the force and all that.
MR MAKONDO: Now looking back, why did you make this application today?
MR KUNENE: After people lost their property and if I follow the spirit of truth and reconciliation, I felt maybe people need to know and also to be forgiving, to say that I did what I did not because I was running amok but it had that purpose but time does not demand it for now, yes.
MR MAKONDO: And what do you say to the victims?
MR KUNENE: I'm sorry and - yes.
MR MAKONDO: And do you perhaps think that the victim could have suffered in any other way either than their property being damaged?
MR KUNENE: Yes, maybe that is the reason why I'm applying because I think emotionally they might have suffered seriously. It's only now that I understand what it means to live under constant threat not knowing that because I mean if you burnt a house yesterday they wouldn't have known if we were still coming to live like that, I think it might have affected them, that is why - one of the reasons why I'm here, to apply and to say I'm sorry and to say - yes.
MR MAKONDO: That will be all Chairperson, unless if there are questions?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKONDO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Makondo.
Mr Kunene, just give us a little bit more information about these incidents? Can you give us a rough idea of the date when these incidents occurred?
MR KUNENE: Dates I'd be lying, I cannot remember the exact dates, I only remember that it was during that period.
CHAIRPERSON: Which period is that?
MR KUNENE: During the local elections.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it late in the year, middle of the year, end of the year?
MR KUNENE: It was late in the year, I think it was after June somewhere around there.
CHAIRPERSON: And at about what time of day did you execute the attacks?
MR KUNENE: It would be late, late as in not earlier than 8 in the evening.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. Ms Vilakazi, any questions?
MS VILAKAZI: Yes Chairperson, I'd like to request a short adjournment just to get further instructions from the present victims?
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. We'll stand down briefly just to allow Ms Vilakazi to clear up something. We'll adjourn quickly.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
SYDNEY PATRICK KUNENE: (s.u.o.)
MR KUNENE: ...(inaudible) this thing and I think if you recall, I did say that at the shop we also left the pamphlets that very night, spread the pamphlets around which we actually indicated that he must actually resign from the council or not stand for elections and yes, mainly it was that because we - there was no looting or whatsoever that we did after that because our main aim was just to scare him off, to show that this is a political thing.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI: But from your own account the pamphlets were left after the attack, isn't it?
MR KUNENE: Not really after the attack, I might not have put it clearly. I said in that night, we left the pamphlets and we were to burn the shop.
MS VILAKAZI: Now were there any attempts made to try to talk to Mr Mesi, to dissuade him from participating before the attacks were made?
MR KUNENE: Not by us, no. Not to any of the people or the victims counted.
MS VILAKAZI: So would I then be right to say that you went to attack these people without trying to dissuade them from -so your only way of dissuading them was of attacking their property?
MR KUNENE: Your question is a little bit tricky because we could not actually speak to them as that unit in particular but if you recall I said there were other pressures from political cycles to say these people must leave but we wouldn't go to anyone as that unit in particular and say we are these people and we want you to resign or else. We wouldn't do that because it would be risky for us to do that.
MS VILAKAZI: But do you know if there were any efforts made to talk to these people before the attacks?
MR KUNENE: Like I said ma'am, not by us, that unit that I belonged to in particular.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, let us try to explore this. If it had become known to you that some efforts had been made to try and dissuade these people from participating in the structures in which they did, would that have made a difference to you for purposes of your own activities and goals as a unit?
MR KUNENE: I think it would have made a difference, especially if we'd notice the - I don't know whether to say the change of attitude, but it would actually - it would have made a difference.
ADV SANDI: When you commenced with your testimony, I understood you to say that yours was simply to carry out the orders from Mr Tedi Mthembu?
MR KUNENE: Yes.
ADV SANDI: If you couldn't question orders?
MR KUNENE: Yes, we couldn't question orders but knowing him as I did, I think if you notice, if they were persuaded and there was a change of attitude, I think he would have actually taken different stand or approach altogether, to say maybe we stop this or whatever because he is a person that I've worked with for quite some time before that. I think it would have made that difference. Not that I could read his thinking all the time but in some cases I could tell that this is how he is going to approach this matter.
ADV SANDI: It was all up to him, I thought that is what you were saying, it was all up to him to decide whether or not to carry on with a planned attack?
MR KUNENE: Yes it was and that is why I'm saying that I think it could have changed, not that it was definitely going to change the attitude.
ADV SANDI: Thank you ma'am.
MS VILAKAZI: Mr Kunene, from your own account, you were merely following instructions, that's what you said, is that so?
MR KUNENE: Yes.
MS VILAKAZI: You never questioned anything?
MR KUNENE: No I wouldn't question.
MS VILAKAZI: So even if there was another motive apart from the question of elections, you wouldn't know that, would you?
MR KUNENE: I'm not so sure on that. I'm not so sure.
MS VILAKAZI: But the fact of the matter is you just took information as it was given to you and you carried out without verifying anything, is that so?
MR KUNENE: Yes, we did.
MS VILAKAZI: Now what is it about the elections that you were opposed to, of what threat were the elections to the organisation?
MR KUNENE: The elections or the local elections as they were then called, in fact it was the whole build up as to how the councillors were making life difficult for people in the townships and if they were to be endorsed with those elections which were coming, life was going to become more and more difficult for people which I think most if not everybody who was staying in a township, actually witnessed that. So if they were scared off by that, it would have been a victory because there was a call from the ANC, I think it was January, a speech, 1981, to say that we must make the country ungovernable and make those structures unworkable. So our part - in doing that we were playing our part in heeding to that call. Of course they would come to us, as an instruction from commanders. That is why some of could not just stand up and take action into that, we'd wait for orders to come. So organisationally, yes. I mean, if the organisations cease, so those structures as structures which were actually making the apartheid system workable, to make life more and more difficult for our people. It would have been a political gain to scare them off.
MS VILAKAZI: But then from what you're saying, is that the presence of these councillors and mayors would make life difficult for people. Is that what you're saying?
MR KUNENE: Yes, that's what I'm saying.
MS VILAKAZI: Are you saying that nothing positive would come out of that, of their involvement in the structures?
MR KUNENE: If I were to talk personally, I wouldn't see anything positive from that.
MS VILAKAZI: I'm putting it to you that Mr Mesi was a community worker who was liked by people of the community. What is your response to that?
MR KUNENE: Ma'am, that is quite relative. A lot of the people who were in the council were actually community workers, they were liked by people but like I'm saying that is quite relative. It depends on what you mean by people because there are other people who were not in the council who were opposing this, those councillors. One can think of Dr Ntata Mohlandla for instance was in the Committee of Ten, so he was liked by people. You could think of many other people who were community leaders who were also liked by people so that is actually relative, it depends what who do you mean by people.
MS VILAKAZI: By people I'm referring to the community that he was serving.
MR KUNENE: But I gather that within the same community that there are other people who didn't want what he was doing and hence they didn't like him.
MS VILAKAZI: Are you aware that Mr Mesi was involved in providing houses for members of the community?
MR KUNENE: No, I'm not aware of that.
MS VILAKAZI: Okay ...(intervention)
ADV SANDI: Sorry Madame, just for my own clarity? In what capacity was he doing this, providing houses to members of the community?
MS VILAKAZI: In his capacity as a mayor.
ADV SANDI: Isn't this relevant of history, that you had these community, you know, so-called Black local authority which were seen by many people as an extension of the then existing system and it would seem to me that everything would simply flow from that? You had a widespread opposition to such structures?
MS VILAKAZI: I think there are two perceptions that could be attributed to the involvement of people in those structures or to the structures themselves. Although on the one hand they were seen as perpetuating the oppression and were an extension of the government, but on the other hand there are also positive things that came out of that. For instance the question of people being provided with houses. Those were also positive, it doesn't mean that because they were seen as an extension and everything that they did was disadvantaging the people.
ADV SANDI: Okay maybe you can put it to him that although there were such hostile attitudes to such structures in general, there were however positive things that were coming out of such structures. I think he does not understand you in that way.
MS VILAKAZI: Perhaps I should just put it to you that the work that - I'm putting it to you that the work that Mr Mesi did as a councillor and as a mayor, also benefited the community. He was not only a part of the oppression but he also did acts which benefited the community. What is your comment to that?
MR KUNENE: I would say the councillors as a whole, 95% of the work that they were doing was actually disadvantaging the community. There might have been that 5% because if you talk of providing houses, if I recall the then government had actually stopped building houses then so if a house was to be provided for family A, that house would have been taken from somebody else. Maybe because that person could not pay rent or for whatever reason, so it would have disadvantaged other people and benefit others who might have been for one reason or the other in the good books of the councillors. So that's how we saw the councillors at that time and because that's how they operated.
Yes, there might have been one or two things which they did which were positive and advantageous to the community. I might not know them now but as for the housing, because I thought you were saying that he was providing houses out of his own but as councillors, there was a lot of dissatisfaction, you only needed to be around the townships to know what was actually happening.
MS VILAKAZI: Okay, are you aware that even after the various attacks on Mr Mesi, to which I come back shortly, but he still continued to serve in the council until the time of his death. In the light of that would you still say that your objective was reached?
MR KUNENE: Yes it was reached because here it was not a question of looking at one person, it was not because maybe we did not like him, Mr Mesi, but it was the structure that they were operating in. If you continued when it was actually maybe out of his choice or for whatever reason, but the objective was reached because a lot of them were scared of and a lot of them were talking of resigning and all that and a lot of them were actually - I mean admitting even in the newspapers to say that their life is not okay because they are working in those structures. They admitted themselves so say that they are being attacked because they are operating within those structures and, like I said earlier, that I think the turnout in those elections that years was less than 7 percent. I have to consult what you call the newspapers and all the people who are keeping this thing but it was very low which was a victory to us.
MS VILAKAZI: Now how many units were operating in your unit. Do you have any information on that?
MR KUNENE: I do not have information, I only knew of my unit.
MS VILAKAZI: So you cannot say with certainty as to whether you were the only unit or there were other units?
MR KUNENE: I can say for certain that we were not the only unit. The reason why I'm saying this is because we saw what I call duplication of what we were doing in other areas and even a time when we did not do anything but would actually see in the papers that something similar to what we were doing has happened somewhere else.
MS VILAKAZI: Where were you staying around the time of the incident?
MR KUNENE: I beg your pardon?
MS VILAKAZI: Where were you staying?
MR KUNENE: Around Soweto.
MS VILAKAZI: Would you say that you were conversant to a large extent with the incidents that took place around, especially relating to councillors?
MR KUNENE: I'd rely on the news and what was being discussed in the organisations and by people and all that.
MS VILAKAZI: Are you aware that there are no less than three attacks that were made on Mr Mesi's property?
MR KUNENE: Well, I don't know of the other two although I remember at some stage that he was attacked not by us. Like I said that there were duplication of these things.
JUDGE MOTATA: Let's get clarify because here we know of the shopping complex. When you say property, are you referring to the shopping complex or are you referring to other property?
MR KUNENE: The shopping complex in particular in this case, by us and that was the first and the last Mr Mesi.
JUDGE MOTATA: No, I'm directing this to the advocate just to have clarity on that. When she refers to property, which property is she talking about here we have heard of the shopping complex?
MS VILAKAZI: For the record my instructions are that there was a petrol bomb attack at the house of Mr Mesi and there was a petrol bomb attack at the shop and there is also another incident in which a bus was driven into the shop and looting followed afterwards and then there is also a shooting incident in which Mr Mesi and his wife died. Those are the incidents which the family can recall now.
JUDGE MOTATA: Yes but when you pose your questions to Mr Kunene, he says why they attacked the shop, they did not know where Mr Mesi lived or where his house was?
MS VILAKAZI: That is correct, Honourable Counsellor.
JUDGE MOTATA: No, I'm not a counsellor.
MS VILAKAZI: I beg your pardon, Honourable Judge. The question that I asked, it was a build up to questions that were going to relate to other incidents, just to find out what information the applicant has. Now the incident I was referring to, that besides the one that he is applying for, that is the one at the shop, there were other attacks.
Now Mr Kunene, I've already put on record the other attacks that were made. Now do you know anything about other attacks except for the one at the shop, the petrol bomb at the shop that you are applying amnesty for?
MR KUNENE: No, I don't know ma'am, especially if they took place after February. I wouldn't have known because February '84 I then went outside Johannesburg, that is East London in particular to be underground until around March or late February, I left for Lesotho. So that incident that I'm talking about, that's the only one that I know, that is to Mr Mesi. So if it took place after there was what you could say black out because I was not even following the news then, that was around February until around late February, early March, when I finally left the country for Lesotho.
MS VILAKAZI: And when did you come back into the country?
MR KUNENE: In 1991 in August.
MS VILAKAZI: Now you are appearing here today as the only applicant. What about Mthembu and Abe that you refer to?
MR KUNENE: Mthembu died in exile, I'm not sure whether in Angola or Tanzania but he committed suicide. Abe died here in Braamfontein in 1986. He got a parcel bomb, when he picked it up in the toilets it blew him up. '85/'86, I'm not hundred percent sure.
MS VILAKAZI: Right, one more question relating to the instructions. You said you got instructions from Mr Mthembu. Do you know specifically from whom he got the instructions?
MR KUNENE: That wouldn't be easy to ask where do you get instructions. What we knew is that he was our Commander, he was the only - would operate himself and he would only know the person that you are accountable to or who is accounting to you and that's it because asking questions as to where do you get information from and all that might have meant that you want to take that information to the enemy, so I don't know where he got the information from.
ADV SANDI: Did you have an opinion as to where possibly he was getting orders which he was conveying to you?
MR KUNENE: I knew it was from ANC. MK had a link with Swaziland and at some stage with Zimbabwe but who in particular there, we only know it was MK.
ADV SANDI: So you just assumed that the orders, he was getting them from high up?
MR KUNENE: From the higher structures of MK, yes.
MS VILAKAZI: This one question I nearly forgot to ask you relating to, as I was asking about other incidents which Mr Mesi was also attacked, I think when the Judge wanted clarity you were talking about another incident that you know of. Can you recall that?
MR KUNENE: No, what I was saying was we noticed a duplication of these, I mean incidents, of what we were doing and I said the only incident that I know which was involving myself in particular with Mr Mesi was that ...(indistinct) but would read about other incidents similar even to other councillors and such but were not necessarily involved in that.
MS VILAKAZI: That will be all, thanks Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Vilakazi. Ms Mtanga have you got any questions?
MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, ma'am. Has the Panel got anything?
JUDGE MOTATA: Mr Kunene, the Tshabalala car, the policeman, was it completely burnt? Destroyed in other words?
MR KUNENE: I think it was. We didn't wait or even go back the following day or at other time to check but I think it was completely burnt.
JUDGE MOTATA: You alluded to the fact that you would get some of these things in the newspapers. Did the newspapers say it was completely burnt or they just said the car was burnt?
MR KUNENE: They just said the car - if I remember, I think they just said the car was burnt, they didn't say whether completely or partially or what.
JUDGE MOTATA: Now like let's take the first Tshabalala, the mayor, Mfula Soweto, when you threw the petrol bomb in the lounge, did you know whether the whole house would catch flame or you just did it that it should only be the lounge?
MR KUNENE: The aim was it should only be the lounge although of course there could be chances that the whole house could catch fire but the way we would actually throw it would actually target the lounge.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makondo, any re-examination?
MR MAKONDO: No re-examination, Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr Kunene, you're excused. Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makondo?
MR MAKONDO IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, there isn't much that I want to bring home, explaining to say ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm going to interrupt you there unfortunately. I just wanted to know if you're presenting any other further evidence or is that the case for Mr Kunene?
MR MAKONDO: This is the case, I thought you're asking me to round it off?
CHAIRPERSON: No not yet, it will come. It will come. Yes, so that's the case for the applicant. Thank you Mr Makondo.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Vilakazi?
MS VILAKAZI: No, evidence on the part of the family.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. And Ms Mtanga?
MS MTANGA: No evidence from me, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Makondo, I interrupted you earlier.
MR MAKONDO IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson, thanks for the guidance.
As I said, Chairperson, in rounding it off it's clear that what the political aim was, the organisation, the time period, Chairperson, tells it all. The targets were very clear. The operations, the way they are, the Chairperson knows that how so far it has come to details and to ...(indistinct) that this is how the units used to work. And Chairperson, it is my submission that the applicant has a disclosure, has shown the political motive that was intended, the aims thereof and the results thereof and as I said the targets were very clear, precautions were taken and all the details are required as per the Act are being met, Chairperson. And it's my submission that the Committee should look at the applicant's application in mercy and make a proper judgment, Chairperson. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: And your client wasn't charged for any of these incidents, was he?
MR MAKONDO: He was never charged, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So you're asking for amnesty in respect of all of the offences from these incidents as been described in your client's evidence?
MR MAKONDO: All three, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Ms Vilakazi, have you got submissions?
MS VILAKAZI IN ARGUMENT: Yes Honourable Chairperson. Chairperson, I think this is a bit difficult in the sense that the Panel has to rely on information that is supplied by the applicant only and there isn't any other information to support it or to verify the correctness and truthfulness of the submissions that were made on the part of the applicant. As I have already put on record that in as far as the mayor, Mesi, was concerned, there's quite a number of attacks which took place and one of the attacks related to a petrol bomb that was thrown at the house and the description of the house that was given by the applicant while he was describing the house of Tshabalala, fits the description of the Mesi's house to an extent that ...(intervention)
JUDGE MOTATA: I assure you that the description given, because I cannot block this from my mind, that the description also fits Mr Tshabalala's house, the mayor in Mapolo.
MS VILAKAZI: Well in that event - because what I was going to put forward is the question now that the Judge has come up with that information, because ...(intervention)
JUDGE MOTATA: ...(inaudible) this thing, I'm not giving evidence.
MS VILAKAZI: But then the question ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: We might have to rule on the reliability of it.
MS VILAKAZI: Yes that is correct, Chairperson. Now the question is now how sure can the Panel be that the attack on the house of Mr Tshabalala that the applicant says he is applying for is not the attack on the house of Mr Mesi, only that he believes that the house of Tshabalala and not that of Mesi?
JUDGE MOTATA: No, in his evidence he was asked where the first Tshabalala lived, Mayor Tshabalala, is that Mapolo and Mesi it's Dobsonville, so I don't think there can be any question that somebody would not be sure what we're talking about?
MS VILAKAZI: I will not pursue that matter any further except to also state that having indicated that a number of incidents took place involving the family of Mesi and the fact that Mr Mesi was also a business person and having asked the applicant as to whether he knows of any effort that was made to dissuade Mr Mesi from taking part in the local structures that they were trying to discourage him from and from his own response one does not get a sense that there were other methods used or efforts made to dissuade him except for the attacks. Now the question that comes to the fore, how sure can the Panel be that the attacks were really directed at dissuading him from being a councillor or taking part in those structures and that they were not related to, for instance his business activity as an example and what is particularly disturbing is the fact that there doesn't seem to have been an effort made to discourage him from taking part in that and the action that was taken was drastic in the sense that the attack on the shop, for instance, it is not only the interest of Mr Mesi as a person but the entire family was affected by that. So that action was quite drastic and was it really warranted as a means of dissuading him, if that was the motive, to dissuade him from taking part in local structures. Was that really warranted, to take an action which would affect other members of the family without making any efforts to dissuade him as a person from taking part in those activities. That will be the submission, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Vilakazi. Ms Mtanga?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I will not make any submissions and I would like to leave this matter in your hands, thank you.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: We have noted that, Ms Mtanga. Mr Makondo, any reply?
MR MAKONDO IN REPLY: Just on one aspect, Chairperson.
It is known that around that time there was an established Committee of Ten, that was charged with the task of talking to people of high profile to persuade them otherwise. As applicant has already alluded, Dr Motlana was there, Reverend Frank Chikane was one of them, Desmond Tutu, the Bishop then, he was part of them.
Chairperson, efforts were taken across the country to persuade people to use lesser drastic measures. However, there were people who were persistent. For instance, Chairperson, it is known that after the flop of these elections Mr Tshabalala, the Mayor, he was put again as the overseer of other, as the administrator of other so-called councillors in the then PWV area. So Chairperson, it's my submission that there were visible structures and there were people and efforts done to persuade people otherwise and the Committee should look into that when they make that decision. Thank you Chairperson.
ADV SANDI: Isn't it the crux of the matter here that the applicant found himself in a position here that he had to carry out orders?
MR MAKONDO: I didn't get that, if you could repeat it?
ADV SANDI: I'm saying shouldn't we look at the realities of the applicant at the time in question? He was a foot soldier. It's the way I understood his evidence, he was just carrying out orders from his superior?
MR MAKONDO: Correct, Chairperson. I was also just highlighting the fact that my colleague, Ms Vilakazi, is saying there were no other efforts taken around to persuade people otherwise either than this way. Once the matter went into the military department of the organisation, I mean people had to carry orders, they were there, but outside that there were other measures that were taken. I was just replying to the submission made.
ADV SANDI: Yes, my point is that whether such preliminary steps had been taken by those who were above the applicant, does it really make any difference when regard is had to his position in the line of hierarchy?
MR MAKONDO: It wouldn't make a difference, I admit. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Makondo. Yes, well that concludes the formal side of the matter before us. We will take some time to consider the application. The material that was placed before us as well as the submissions and once the decision is available we will notify the interested parties as soon as we have in fact formulated a decision which we will endeavour to do as quickly as circumstances permit. So under those circumstances we will reserve the decision in this matter and use the opportunity to thank Mr Makondo and Ms Vilakazi for your assistance in the matter, it's appreciated. And if you don't have any further matters before us we will excuse you.
MR MAKONDO: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, we have two more matters on the roll if I'm not mistaken?
MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, that is so.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you need an opportunity to rearrange?
MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, we need a five minute adjournment to organise ourselves.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll stand down for a few moments just to give an opportunity for the next matter to be prepared.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
