PHILLIP RUDOLF CRAUSE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Crause, you were a member of the Security Branch in the Western Transvaal during 1985, is that correct?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You apply for amnesty for any offence or any unlawful acts committed by you because of your part in what is known as the raid of Botswana on the 14th of June 1985, is that correct?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Your application appears in volume 1, from page 77 and you deal with the incident on page 85 of the same volume, is that correct?
MR CRAUSE: That's correct.
MR VISSER: Do you confirm the contents of the amnesty application, subject to the evidence that you will give today, as true and correct according to the best of your knowledge?
MR CRAUSE: That's correct.
MR VISSER: You have previously already seen the document, General Background to Amnesty Applications, and the references to it. You have read and studied it, do you confirm once again your knowledge of the contents thereof, with the exception to the parts with regard to Lesotho and Swaziland?
MR CRAUSE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And do you request that this be incorporated in your evidence?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Mr Crause, in 1985 what was your rank and what was your position in the Security Branch in the Western Transvaal?
MR CRAUSE: Chairperson, at that stage I was a Captain in the Security Branch. I was stationed at Zeerust as Branch Commander.
MR VISSER: Yes. And did you people subordinate to you?
MR CRAUSE: Yes, I had a staff of approximately 12 to 14.
MR VISSER: What Mr du Preez Smit, another applicant in this matter, was he a staff member of yours?
MR CRAUSE: Yes, he was my second-in-command. We had an indication from the Panel that we do not have to trouble ourselves further with the general danger that was there from Botswana, I just want you to briefly tell this Committee, were you involved in the collection of intelligence?
MR CRAUSE: Yes, and my whole staff was involved in the collection of information in Botswana, and this was about ANC, PAC, BCMA, Sayco, all refugees from the RSA.
MR VISSER: And did you use informers or sources, as they are sometimes known?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And did you yourself handle such informers?
MR CRAUSE: Yes, I also handled informers.
MR VISSER: What did you do with the information that you collected?
MR CRAUSE: All information that was collected, also by the staff members, was placed in writing and it was sent to Head Office in Potchefstroom.
MR VISSER: How long were you busy with the collection of information, what time period before the 14th of June?
MR CRAUSE: I arrived at the Security Branch in Zeerust in 1971, and from that stage I was involved in the collection of intelligence.
MR VISSER: Can you then just briefly confirm that there was an escalation of activities from Botswana from the early '80s?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you become aware at some stage of a planning of an operation during the middle of 1985, in Botswana?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And did you become aware of the fact that this would be launched by the South African Army?
MR CRAUSE: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Was anything expected of you?
CHAIRPERSON: When did you become aware?
MR CRAUSE: This was approximately two or three weeks before the attack.
CHAIRPERSON: Who told you?
MR CRAUSE: I was informed by my Commander, Gen Steyn.
CHAIRPERSON: What did he say?
MR CRAUSE: He told me that the Army planned an attack in Botswana on certain ANC targets.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that all? Is that all he said?
MR CRAUSE: At that stage, that's all he told me at that stage.
MR VISSER: And did he pass any instructions to you in this regard?
MR CRAUSE: He only told me that - I want mention beforehand that continually we had files on all terrorists, all activists, anyone who was involved and we sent this through to Head Office. What I mean with that is, we also looked at addresses, where they worked, what their activities were, as far as we could.
MR VISSER: Did Gen Steyn give you any instructions, specifically with regard to the planned attack?
MR CRAUSE: At that stage, no, he only told me that they were drawing up a memorandum and that they would give us names later, so that we could check the people.
MR VISSER: Were you supposed to update information on a daily basis?
MR CRAUSE: This was done continually.
MR VISSER: Did you know that information that was collected by you in this manner would find its way to the Army, that would launch the attack?
MR CRAUSE: I accepted that after I was informed that the Army would undertake an operation.
MR VISSER: What did you think would happen in Botswana because of the Army's action there? What did you think would happen there?
MR CRAUSE: I accepted that they would attack houses and possibly MK and ANC collaborators and activists.
MR VISSER: Did you foresee the possibility that innocent persons would be killed?
MR CRAUSE: That is always a possibility, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Mr Crause, did you ever attend any meetings where information was exchanged and co-ordinated with other regions or divisions?
MR CRAUSE: This was also done continually, over a long period of time Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Can you please tell the Committee, on the day of the 14th, where were you? What did you do?
MR CRAUSE: On the day of the 14th I accompanied Gen Steyn to the border post and there we monitored a truck that took some of the soldiers through.
MR VISSER: Please describe that truck to us.
MR CRAUSE: I would describe it as a built-up and sealed truck.
MR VISSER: And what was inside?
MR CRAUSE: I did not see them, but I heard that it was the soldiers.
MR VISSER: And what about equipment?
MR CRAUSE: I do not know anything about equipment.
MR VISSER: You do not know. What did you go to do at the border?
MR CRAUSE: I was went with the General to monitor it and from there I went to a point close to Kopfontein Hek, from where we monitored Botswana Police radio.
MR VISSER: And what was the purpose of that?
MR CRAUSE: To listen what the problems would be if problems emanated and to monitor their action.
MR VISSER: In other words, you wanted to hear what the Botswana Police were telling each other, in case they became aware that there was an attack happening?
MR CRAUSE: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What would happen if you realised that they knew about the attack?
MR CRAUSE: Then we would have monitored and just informed Gen Steyn.
MR VISSER: Do you know whom the persons were that were killed and/or injured during this attack, and what their identities were?
MR CRAUSE: I later saw a list of names, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And on this list of names, Mr Crause, we have gone through it in consultation, can you tell the Committee whether there were names on this list that are familiar to you or about whom you had information?
MR CRAUSE: Persons known to me were George Pahle.
MR VISSER: Please say that again.
MR CRAUSE: George Cecil Pahle.
MR VISSER: What number is he?
MR CRAUSE: He's number 17.
MR VISSER: Can you please inform the Committee what was known to you about Pahle.
MR CRAUSE: His house was known to us. We also had information that he was involved in the transport of trained MKs, and that he also received recruits from the RSA, who were on their way for training.
MR VISSER: Where did he transport the trained MK members to?
MR CRAUSE: He usually took them to safehouses, Goditsane, Rubatsi and all those places.
MR VISSER: And in your language and in your understanding of that, were these activities in which he participated of any interest to the RSA?
MR CRAUSE: Definitely, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: In what sense?
MR CRAUSE: It was that he was involved in infiltrations and transport of trained persons to the RSA.
MR VISSER: Anyone else?
MR MALAN: Before you continue.
You say you had this information, did you have informers that reported to you?
MR CRAUSE: Yes, we had informers, we had various informers.
MR MALAN: So you had direct information from the people on the ground with regard to Pahle?
MR CRAUSE: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Maybe I should just refer you to what the writer, Stiff, says of Mr George Pahle on page 82 in volume 2. He says
"The Security Police maintained George Pahle had planted a bomb at Johannesburg's Carlton Centre in 1976"
Do you know anything about that?
MR CRAUSE: I do not know about that.
MR VISSER: Was this not information that would emanate from you?
MR CRAUSE: No, this did not come from us.
MR VISSER: And then he continues, and if I may skip a few sentences, he and his wife received military training in Angola, do you know about that?
MR CRAUSE: I do not know about that.
MR VISSER: And then
"They were involved in intelligence work for the ANC"
MR CRAUSE: I would not be able to say. The second part, that I know about.
CHAIRPERSON: Listen Mr Crause, the information that was known to you was that he was involved in the transport of MK members to South Africa. Is that all?
MR CRAUSE: That's correct. And then the receipt of new refugees.
CHAIRPERSON: But is that all that you know of?
MR CRAUSE: Yes, that is the information I had.
MR VISSER: In other words, does this include transport and the provision of a safe haven?
MR CRAUSE: That's correct.
MR VISSER: Who else can you tell us about today, other names?
MR CRAUSE: I cannot testify about them, but I can indeed give evidence with regard to the two addresses that were known.
MR VISSER: Which addresses were those?
MR CRAUSE: It was the SMS offices.
MR VISSER: What does that stand for?
MR CRAUSE: Solidarity News Service.
MR VISSER: That is at page 82, it's marked Target 7 on the left-hand side, the top, Chairperson.
What was your knowledge about that?
MR CRAUSE: Our information was that they printed propaganda from there and distributed it to the RSA, and that they had a computer there which could be of interest to us.
MR VISSER: Because of the information on it?
MR CRAUSE: That's correct.
MR VISSER: The printing and distribution of propaganda material in the RSA, was this of interest to the Security Branch?
MR CRAUSE: Absolutely.
MR VISSER: Why?
MR CRAUSE: Because it was propaganda that was distributed and this incited people.
MR VISSER: And this led to violence?
MR CRAUSE: That's correct.
MR VISSER: Any other address?
MR CRAUSE: And then the ANC Head Office, 2067 and 2068 Tlokweng(?)
MR VISSER: Chairperson, that's also at page 82 on the left-hand side, the second item. As a cross-reference.
What was of importance in those premises?
MR CRAUSE: Many plans were formulated according to information that we had from those premises and new recruits also arrived there and according to information that we had, weapons were also hidden there.
CHAIRPERSON: I'll accept Mr Visser, that if it was the ANC's Headquarters, it must have been a target.
MR VISSER: Yes, you're correct Chairperson.
Did you have insight or intimate knowledge of the final memorandum that Gen Steyn testified about, that he submitted at Wachthuis in Pretoria, to Gens Coetzee and Viljoen?
MR CRAUSE: No, I do not.
MR VISSER: So you are not able to say which of the names that are here in this application were indeed on that list or not?
MR CRAUSE: No, I cannot comment on that.
MR VISSER: And as far as you are concerned, what were the primary targets upon which you concentrated to supply information? Was it people or places or what?
MR CRAUSE: It was people and places, but can I also add that ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I do not know whether we understand, but was your question aimed at finding out ...
MR VISSER: No, no, the question was that initially he had no knowledge of what was on that list. I am asking him now, was this aimed at his intelligence gathering.
MR CRAUSE: We had many other targets, if we can call it such, I do not know which of those people.
MR VISSER: So those were premises as well as persons. So you are asking for amnesty for your involvement in this. I believe I did ask you, but if I did not, then the Committee will forgive me. Did you know that the information that you conveyed ...
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
ON RESUMPTION
MR VISSER: Mr Crause, I was busy asking you did you know that the information that was conveyed, as you testified, would be applied as a basis for the Army to act against persons and installations in Botswana?
MR CRAUSE: This was after I was informed by Gen Steyn that an attack was indeed planned.
MR VISSER: And did you also know that persons would be killed?
MR CRAUSE: I was aware of it.
MR VISSER: And did you accept and did you foresee that innocent persons would also be killed?
MR CRAUSE: In the process that does happen.
MR VISSER: By implication you have said it already but let me make it clear, that Smit who was under your command, did he also collect information?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did he also handle sources?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And did you have insight into information that he collected?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And was that part of the information that you promoted to your Head Office in Potchefstroom?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
MR COETSER: I have no cross-examination, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER
MR CORNELIUS: I have no question, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: I have a few questions, Chairperson.
First question, Mr Crause, has three parts. What information - I'm now talking about the information that you, as well as Smit passed on to Mr Steyn, did that information only concern George Pahle and the two addresses, the SNS offices and the ANC Headquarters, or did it go beyond that
MR CRAUSE: The information with regard to these persons was only as I gave it earlier on, there was no further information given through about it.
MR BERGER: Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, because just at the end now Mr Visser asked you whether Mr Smit, who was under you, also provided or furnished certain information which you then handed over to Mr Steyn. Now the sum total of that information, was it the information concerning George Pahle and the SNS offices and the ANC Headquarters, as you've already described?
MR CRAUSE: Positive, Chairperson. I just want to mention that this was only with regard to the persons involved here. There was lots of other information sent through by other persons, but with regard to this list it was only these persons about whom we sent information through.
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you hand over the information to Mr Steyn?
MR CRAUSE: All information that we received with regard to all activists, or all MK members, was promoted to our regional office.
CHAIRPERSON: And two or three weeks before the incident you found out about a possible attack that would be launched by the Army?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you hand any information over to Loots or Steyn with regard to that attack or planned attack?
MR CRAUSE: I can only mention that we did not have the full detail about ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: But did you have any information after you found out that there was a planned attack, that the Army would launch an attack somewhere?
MR CRAUSE: Chairperson, with regard to other persons we also sent through information.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we are not understanding each other ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Mr Crause, and this bothers me as well, let me try and clear this up. You say you continually promoted information.
MR CRAUSE: That's correct.
MR MALAN: That is the normal process, that is what the book says, if you get information, the information you put in a report form or whatever and you send it through to Potchefstroom.
MR CRAUSE: That's correct.
MR MALAN: Now the question is, at some stage you testified that Steyn told you that two or three weeks before the time the Army was planning an attack.
MR CRAUSE: That's correct.
MR MALAN: The question is, after he told you this, did he give you any information afterwards, or did you supply any information to Potchefstroom that was aimed at the attack itself?
MR CRAUSE: No, at that stage they were already in the process of drawing up memorandums and we did not act on it further.
MR MALAN: So you never had any dealings with the memorandum or that you knew that it was dealt with with the memorandum?
MR CRAUSE: No.
MR MALAN: Do you know whether any urgent intelligence was requested from you with regard to the updating or with specifically Pahle?
MR CRAUSE: It was asked whether we could determine whether the targets were still there or so, with regard to these three. I'm referring to these three now.
MR MALAN: But the ANC office would have still been there?
MR CRAUSE: Yes, the ANC office was continually monitored.
MR MALAN: And the SNS office?
MR CRAUSE: Yes, that was also continually monitored.
MR MALAN: So was it asked of you after Steyn told you to see whether you had any information to Pahle?
MR CRAUSE: I cannot recall. It could be, but I cannot recall.
MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
So Mr Crause, the point is that all the information about George Pahle that you passed on to Mr Steyn or Mr Loots, all that information that you passed on was before you had any knowledge that that information was going to be used in an attack on the ANC in Botswana. Would that be correct?
MR CRAUSE: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Any more questions, Mr Berger?
MR BERGER: I have no more questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.
MR VISSER: No re-examination by Mr Visser.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, your witness, Mr Crause is excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: May we can still hear ...(inaudible)
MR VISSER: That will be Mr du Preez Smit, Chairperson.
