Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We want to start the proceedings. For the record, it is Tuesday the 3rd of October 2000. We are continuing with the amnesty hearing at the JISS Centre in Johannesburg.

The panel is constituted as it would be apparent from the record. The first matter before us this morning is the amnesty application of Mxolisi Kali. The amnesty reference number is AM7726/97. I am going to ask the parties to put themselves on record. Mr Nyawuza?

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson and honourable Committee members. My name is Oupa Patrick Nyawuza, I am for the applicant. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. The Leader of Evidence?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am. Mr Nyawuza, is there anything that you want to put on record, or do you want to proceed to present your client's testimony?

MR NYAWUZA: Yes, we are ready to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Mr Kali, please just indicate whether you can hear the Interpreters on your headset?

MR KALI: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Will you please stand to take the oath? Give your full names for the record?

MR KALI: Mxolisi Kali.

MXOLISI KALI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please be seated. Mr Nyawuza?

EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Honourable Chair. Mr Kali, is it correct that you are applying for amnesty for kidnapping, possession of an unlicensed firearm and an assault on IFP members?

MR KALI: Yes, it is.

MR NYAWUZA: Is it further correct that you completed a form on the 10th of May 1997 and the signature on page 7 of the bundle, is yours?

MR KALI: Yes.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, briefly tell us about yourself (indistinct) the ANC?

MR KALI: I was born on the East-Rand in Katlehong. That is where I grew up and that is where I was attending school. In the early 1980's, I was still in Katlehong and that is when I started becoming active politically. I joined the Youth and also COSAS. At the time in the East-Rand, there was violence. We were the victims of that violence. That is when we decided to participate in different ways.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, did you at any stage train in the military wing of the ANC or what happened?

MR KALI: Yes, I was trained even though it was a crash course training.

MR NYAWUZA: When was that? Estimate Mr Kali, if you cannot remember the correct year.

MR KALI: It was in the late 1980's and early 1990's.

MR NYAWUZA: Were you trained in Katlehong or were you taken to some place where you were trained?

MR KALI: First time it was in Katlehong.

MR NYAWUZA: And then?

MR KALI: In the early 1990's, we were trained in different places, including in the Eastern Cape.

MR NYAWUZA: So you came back after your training, Mr Kali, and what happened?

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, just before you proceed to that Mr Nyawuza, can I just clarify this? Just going a little bit back, the violence that you spoke about in the early 1980's, we assume that is political violence that you are talking about?

MR KALI: It was a mixture of both, first it was the taxi violence and then political violence.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it the conflict in what was then called the East-Rand, involving hostel dwellers and residents of the townships, Vosloorus and those areas?

MR KALI: At first it was the police who were in the townships, they were fighting against the school children, and also the SADF were helping the police.

CHAIRPERSON: And the rest of the violence, what was the nature of that, the political violence?

MR KALI: Would you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: You say that one component of this was the presence of the Security Forces, was that the only nature of violence that we are talking about, or was there also violence between residents of the townships and people in the hostels?

MR KALI: The violence between the township residents and the hostel dwellers started in the early 1990's.

CHAIRPERSON: In response to what situation did you receive military training, a crash course? Did you follow that?

MR KALI: Early 1990's, that is when I received training.

CHAIRPERSON: In response to what particular situation?

MR KALI: When the townships residents and the hostel dwellers were fighting.

CHAIRPERSON: And in what capacity were you receiving training? As a member of the Self Defence Unit, as a member of Umkhonto weSizwe or any other structure?

MR KALI: Both.

CHAIRPERSON: Both? Do you mean both the Self Defence Unit and Umkhonto weSizwe?

MR KALI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Nyawuza, you may carry on.

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Kali, when you received training, military training as well as that, who was your Commander at the time?

MR KALI: Vusi Vilakazi was working in Katlehong.

MR NYAWUZA: What was his rank?

MR KALI: He was recruiting for MK.

MR NYAWUZA: And when were you specifically recruited into MK?

MR KALI: It was in 1989.

MR NYAWUZA: The conflict between the hostel dwellers and the township residents, what political affiliation were these two affiliated to? The conflict between the township residents and the hostel dwellers, emanated as per political affiliation. Who were, what were hostel dwellers affiliated to, what organisation were they affiliated to at that time, and what were most of the township residents affiliated to?

MR KALI: No one possessed any card at the time, but they belonged to the IFP.

MR NYAWUZA: What makes you say so, Mr Kali?

MR KALI: I am saying so because every time when they came to attack the residents of the township, they will sing IFP slogans.

MR NYAWUZA: So your growth within the MK and the ANC, Mr Kali, how long did it take you, where did you end up ultimately?

MR KALI: In 1991/1992 or between 1991 and 1992, SDUs were formed in Katlehong. This was in response, because people were being attacked in their houses during the night. The leadership of Katlehong formed SDUs. McBride approached me.

MR NYAWUZA: McBride who, Mr Kali?

MR KALI: Robert McBride approached me and an office was established in Katlehong, SDU office.

MR NYAWUZA: What was your rank Mr Kali?

MR KALI: I was a Commander at that time.

MR NYAWUZA: What were your tasks?

MR KALI: My task was to form SDUs and also for the SDUs to come and report back to me in that office.

MR NYAWUZA: Proceed.

MR KALI: I will take all those reports and go to the Regional Office, the ANC Regional Office in Johannesburg.

MR NYAWUZA: Who were you reporting to at the Regional Office?

MR KALI: There were three people whom I was reporting to in the Regional Office in Johannesburg, Robert McBride, Vusi Gunene and Mr Africa Khumalo.

MR NYAWUZA: Proceed Mr Kali.

MR KALI: Everything which was happening, we will take and report to the Regional Office, we will give them report as to who had been attacked and how many people had been injured or killed. Since I was the one who was in charge at the time, I was able to go to the Peace Desk Office which was situated in the Hospital.

MR NYAWUZA: Which hospital, Mr Kali?

MR KALI: Natalspruit Hospital.

MR NYAWUZA: And what would happen?

MR KALI: IFP and us would meet and talk or negotiate there.

MR NYAWUZA: In what year was that, Mr Kali?

MR KALI: Between 1992 and 1993.

MR NYAWUZA: So Mr Kali, how did it happen that you should be a VIP guard at some stage as I see from the bundle?

MR KALI: At about 1993 I was appointed to go and work in the Regional Office.

MR NYAWUZA: Was your rank still that of Commander at that time?

MR KALI: I wouldn't be able to put it clearly whether I was still a Commander or not, because we were all working.

MR NYAWUZA: Okay, what were your tasks then when you were taken to the Regional Office?

MR KALI: I was a security guard in the Regional Office, in the VIP Unit.

MR NYAWUZA: Who were you tasked to be a bodyguard of?

MR KALI: I wasn't a bodyguard as such, but we would go to a certain place if there would be an event and we would escort those VIP's.

MR NYAWUZA: What would you do if you went before a meeting, would it be to check the security of the area or what?

MR KALI: Yes.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, a certain event occurred apparently in April 1994, do you have any knowledge of that event?

MR KALI: Yes.

MR NYAWUZA: What happened?

MR KALI: It was on a Saturday afternoon, we were staying and guarding Court Holiday Inn. On that weekend I was off, I was going to go to the township. I took the clothes which I used to wear when I was working, I took them to my car. As I was about to leave the Regional Office, Mr Obed Bapela approached me, he requested me to accompany him to Alexander.

MR NYAWUZA: What mode of transport were you using, were you going to use his car or the organisation's car or your car?

MR KALI: In my ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what did you say, your own car?

MR KALI: Mr Obed's car.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, now where was your car where you put the clothes in?

MR KALI: I left it in the office.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is that?

MR KALI: The ANC Regional Headquarters.

CHAIRPERSON: You left your car at the ANC Regional Office in Johannesburg?

MR KALI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In Shell House?

MR KALI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR KALI: Lanset Hall in Jeppe Street.

CHAIRPERSON: And where precisely was this vehicle parked?

MR KALI: In the basement.

CHAIRPERSON: In the basement of that building?

MR KALI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where the Regional Office was in?

MR KALI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was in the vehicle? You placed your clothing in there and what else was in the vehicle?

MR KALI: We were using that car and inside that car, there were ANC material, like the plaque cards and information about the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: So the vehicle, it wasn't your personal property, if I understand you clearly?

MR KALI: It was my mother's car.

CHAIRPERSON: It was your mother's car and you say that "we were using the car", who are the "we"?

MR KALI: I will put it this way, at the time the ANC didn't have too many cars and too much money, therefore we were also helping out. If you had anything to help, you would help, therefore I was using the car for ANC purposes.

CHAIRPERSON: You were using it for ANC purposes quite frequently?

MR KALI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, what would you, would you travel around Johannesburg or the township or what? Where would you use the car?

MR KALI: Yes, I would use it around Johannesburg and the townships.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that there were ANC material in the car, can you just give us some more information about that?

MR KALI: The car had ANC stickers and placards, one of those stickers were written "vote for the ANC, now is the time" and many others.

CHAIRPERSON: So, if one were to look at that car, where it was parked, would it have been apparent that apart from the fact that it was parked in the offices where the ANC is housed, would it be apparent from looking at the car, that this car is linked to the ANC?

MR KALI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: This material that you are talking about, placards and whatever else, would that have been visible from outside, from somebody, say somebody is standing next to the car, would you be able to see all these things?

MR KALI: Yes, one could see because the car was not tinted.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry Mr Nyawuza.

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Kali, I believe in 1994 it was during the time of the elections, is that so?

MR KALI: Yes, it was a week before the elections.

MR NYAWUZA: It is during that period that attempts at the leadership were made, to kill the leadership, is that so?

MR KALI: Yes.

MR NYAWUZA: And is it further correct Mr Kali, that it is during this time that the Security Branch gets more involved in seeing to it that the leadership is not harmed in any way?

MR KALI: That is so.

MR NYAWUZA: Will I be further correct, Mr Kali, to state that it is during this period that a lot of information on security is exchanged amongst yourselves and some of it is documented, which document according to your instructions, were in the motor vehicle? Is that so?

MR KALI: It is so.

MR NYAWUZA: And Mr Kali, you have mentioned banners and the promotion, were there documents in the motor vehicle that related to the security at the time?

MR KALI: In my pocket, yes, there were such documents because, in my bag actually, there were documents because you see after each event, we had to submit a report to the office.

MR NYAWUZA: Did you get the stuff, or in fact, let me put it this way, let's go back to the Obed Bapela thing. Mr Kali, Obed Bapela requested you to accompany him to Alexander, you are using his motor vehicle, your motor vehicle is parked at the basement of the Regional Office in Jeppe Street, Lanset Hall. Did you go to Alexander in Mr Bapela's motor vehicle?

MR KALI: Yes.

MR NYAWUZA: When did you come back, Mr Kali, because according to the bundle your motor vehicle was broken into at Hillbrow?

MR KALI: Mr Bapela had a meeting in Alexander at the Recreation Centre. We went there and the meeting dissolved, but it was after my car had been broken into. I went to the office and before actually I accompanied Mr Bapela, I went to book a pump action firearm which I used to accompany him, and when I came back, I did not take it back to the office, because it was late. Later after I left the office, I was alone, I went into my car, drove to Fontana in Hillbrow to buy some food, that is the reason I went to Hillbrow, because many placed had been closed. I felt that I would not be able to get food at home.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, is it correct that Fontana is open for 24 hours?

MR KALI: Correct.

MR NYAWUZA: So you are telling this Committee that that is the reason you went to Hillbrow with your motor vehicle, that you knew that at least there is a shop during this time of the night that is open, that sells take-away food, is that right?

MR KALI: Yes, that is the reason, nothing else.

MR NYAWUZA: And you parked your motor vehicle in the street. Is it in front of Fontana or a few metres away from Fontana?

MR KALI: I parked it in another street, but not far away from the shop.

MR NYAWUZA: And at all material times, Mr Kali, your motor vehicle had these banners, these documents and these stickers that related to the motor vehicle being linked with the ANC, at that time, is that so?

MR KALI: That is correct.

MR NYAWUZA: You got into Fontana, Mr Kali, to buy food and I believe it is common cause that food was sold to you, and you went back to your motor vehicle. What is it that you found?

MR KALI: Upon arrival the middle window was open, that gave me a fright.

MR NYAWUZA: The middle window, Mr Kali, on the left hand side of the motor vehicle, or on the right hand side?

MR KALI: On the left hand side.

MR NYAWUZA: That would be the sliding door, is that so?

MR KALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NYAWUZA: Okay, and what is it that you found to be missing in your motor vehicle, Mr Kali?

MR KALI: That is the direction from which I came, so I didn't have a chance to move towards the right side of the car. The door was open and what I saw upon arrival, you see, I had put the pump action gun below the seat.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, at the time that you were carrying this pump action gun, were you allowed to carry firearms publicly? Would you leave the ANC Headquarters carrying a firearm, was it legal to do so?

MR KALI: First of all, I would say there were licensed firearms and some of these firearms were not licensed.

MR NYAWUZA: And the unlicensed firearm Mr Kali, when were you allowed to carry them?

MR KALI: You see the ANC did not abruptly start owning unlicensed firearms, individuals within the ANC had unlicensed firearms, so we were carrying these firearms, but in my case, it was only later that I had a firearm. There is a friend of mine called Yster, who was killed at the office. He was a colleague of mine, and I decided at the time that I too should have a firearm, because Yster was shot right in front of the office, and I decided that my life too, was in danger. I had to have a firearm.

MR NYAWUZA: Did the leadership know of your carrying of an unlicensed firearm?

MR KALI: I would not say all of them knew, some of them, yes. I would be lying if I were to say all of them knew that I had an unlicensed firearm.

MR NYAWUZA: Would you say that was condoned within those that knew?

MR KALI: Yes.

MR NYAWUZA: Okay. Let's go back to the breaking in. So your motor vehicle had been broken in, what is it that was taken?

MR KALI: The vehicle had several things inside, clothing, linen, a uniform which I had brought from Orlando, placards and several other things, some of which I cannot recall.

MR NYAWUZA: Were the placards also taken?

MR KALI: Pamphlets, some pamphlets were taken, not placards. I did not make a count of it, but things that I found missing, were these small pamphlets.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what kind of vehicle was this?

MR KALI: It was a microbus.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these items, were they on the seats or on the floor, or where were they, the clothing, linen, all these material?

MR KALI: Behind the back seat, that is where the linen and the placards were and the other, in the seats, that is where my clothing was placed.

ADV BOSMAN: But was it placed sort of openly or was it packed in a box or a bag or how was it placed in the vehicle?

MR KALI: The suit that I had was in a suit cover with other clothing and the boots were in a bag, and that was in the vehicle specifically for shoes. The one thing that was visible from outside the vehicle was the duvet, but the clothing itself were inside bags.

ADV BOSMAN: And the pamphlets?

MR KALI: Pamphlets were in the back of the vehicle and they were visible from outside.

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you. Mr Kali, you have mentioned a uniform. What kind of uniform was this, was it a police uniform, a military uniform or ...

MR KALI: A military uniform.

MR NYAWUZA: So was it also missing when you came back?

MR KALI: Yes, and I was not able to get the uniform ever, that is the uniform, radio and a bag, but yes, I did find the other things later on.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, your car had been broken in to, and you realised that a lot of items were missing. What steps did you take to see to it that this is addressed?

MR KALI: I went to the nearest satellite police station in Hillbrow, that is where I laid a charge. I secured a case number and then went back to the office to inform them about the incident.

MR NYAWUZA: Did you advise them that some of the material that had been taken from the motor vehicle related to the security issues that were there at the time?

MR KALI: Yes, correct.

MR NYAWUZA: And then, what happened Mr Kali, what is it that subsequently happened?

MR KALI: What do you mean, in relation to the work or the case?

MR NYAWUZA: In relation to the case, Mr Kali.

MR KALI: I went back to the township that evening, slept and the following day I came back to town. I went back to the police station in Hillbrow with my case number and I informed them about my concern and upon arrival, they showed me a heap of dockets saying that numerous people had lost their vehicles and my case was very trivial, and they said they were not going to help me there and then and I was concerned primarily about the information that was stolen from the vehicle.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, is it correct that amongst the documents that you lost, were your ID and your address where you stayed?

MR KALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NYAWUZA: Did you think at the time that this would be, would have serious repercussions if members of a political party that were not in line with your policy at that time, would get hold thereof and eliminate you, would that be so?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Nyawuza, are you not overstepping the mark a little bit in leading your witness?

MR NYAWUZA: I withdraw that question. Mr Kali, the information that you had lost, what is it that you thought would happen to you?

MR KALI: First of all, with reference to my residential address, the problem that I had now was that anybody who was after me, now had the information. That was my first concern. Secondly, I was concerned about information pertaining to my work, because there was a complete programme of where we were going to work and all the necessary venues that we were going to work at.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, you were shown a heap of dockets and told that your case was a trivial matter. What is it that you did then?

MR KALI: I asked them, I actually enquired from them whether I can take steps on my own to try and get hold of the lost properties. I was told that I was not able to do that. They told me that I can only do that if I spoke to some Reservist Sergeant who would possibly give me a chance to go and do an investigation on my own. After that, I went to the office and he was not there. I was informed he was coming the following day. When I came the following day, I found his assistant who wrote on a small piece of paper the name of the police to whom I was referred and his telephone numbers, and I enquired as to whether I could continue and he said "if you do that, you would be doing it on your own, but you still have to come back here and report" and he said "no problem, you can continue your investigation".

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, at that time, you believed that the paper that you had been given gave you powers to effect a citizens' arrest, for want of a better word?

MR KALI: Yes, correct.

MR NYAWUZA: So, you left Hillbrow police station with this letter that you had been given by this chap and what happened then?

MR KALI: I went to work, that was during the course of the week. I would after work, go out and continue the investigation. Fortunately I came across one boy, one young man in Hillbrow, I spoke to him and enquired from him and he understood my case and indicated that Hillbrow was infested with crime. People were breaking into people's cars and I told him what things I lost in my car, and he promised to help should he come across those stolen things, and he would keep in touch with me, and we agreed upon a rendezvous.

MR NYAWUZA: Did you come back after you had left, did you come back to him?

MR KALI: Yes.

MR NYAWUZA: When was that and what happened?

MR KALI: This young man I met again, it could have been on Thursday or Friday, and he said there is one group that he suspected, because he saw them in possession of money that particular week. There are numerous boys or young men whom he saw in possession of money and he informed me that he saw somebody wearing something similar to the things that I described as having lost, but I could not find the young man that day and I left, so that on Saturday evening, that is when this whole thing happened. And then I went to the township and continued to use my vehicle and in the vehicle I put some clothes that were almost similar to the clothes that I had lost in the incident, linen and everything and then I went back to Hillbrow.

MR NYAWUZA: Were you using the same motor vehicle that had been broken into the previous time?

MR KALI: Yes.

MR NYAWUZA: Okay, proceed. I was in the company of Matau. We parked the vehicle on the same street where it had been broken into. We went to stand at a balcony of Kentucky and around twelve o'clock, as we were waiting there, I saw about four to five young men going down the street. As they were supposed to go passed the vehicle, they did not do that. That is when I looked very carefully. One of them was in possession of something that looked like a screwdriver, which he used to open the window. The window was opened, one of them got inside. That is when I realised that the car was being broken into. I went to the car and as I approached, the sliding door had already been opened and Temba, the one whom I grabbed first, was inside the car. The others upon seeing me, fled. Temba could not flee and I grabbed him. After closing the door, I started asking him questions and he said we should not beat him up, he will tell us who broke into the vehicle the previous week. Upon so saying, I concluded that indeed he knew something. He promised to tell us what happened. He said they are the ones who broke into the vehicle the previous week. I enquired what happened and he said they sold the clothing in Hillbrow and I said "all I wanted was the names of the people to whom these items were sold", he said the bag that was, that contained papers, was sold to a Mr Ngubane, who was working at a flat. He said the radio and speakers were sold to taxi people and some of the clothes were in the hotel where Mr Ngubane was working. That is where these boys, or these young men were tenants as well.

CHAIRPERSON: I forgot to ask you earlier, what happened to the shotgun that was in the vehicle?

MR KALI: I submitted it back to the office.

CHAIRPERSON: That was never stolen by these thieves?

MR KALI: No. And upon enquiring Temba about the shotgun, he said it was too big, it could have led to their arrest.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kali, do I understand it correctly, that you left a shotgun and sensitive security material in a vehicle while you went out to buy food? Is that your evidence?

MR KALI: Yes, because I knew I was just going to buy some food and then leave, that was not common practice though.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you report to your leadership that you had left sensitive material and a shotgun in the vehicle and had gone out, and this was late at night, in Hillbrow?

MR KALI: Yes, I told them.

ADV BOSMAN: What was their response to that?

MR KALI: I cannot recall exactly what happened, but I remember I submitted the firearm immediately when I went back to the office.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you recall whom you told that you had also left sensitive security material and that it had been taken?

MR KALI: Yes, it was Frank who was working at the office that day.

ADV BOSMAN: Was he senior to you?

MR KALI: Correct.

ADV SANDI: Can you give us the full names of Frank? Frank, who is Frank?

MR KALI: Maybe somebody can help me out here.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe Mr Nyawuza can get the information and submit it to later on, but carry on with your evidence.

MR KALI: Frank Radebe.

MR NYAWUZA: Proceed Mr Kali. You have Temba, Temba tells you that he will show you where the stuff is, what is it that you did now?

MR KALI: I accompanied him to the Hillbrow police station.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Ngubane, what more did he tell you about Mr Ngubane?

MR KALI: He informed me that Mr Ngubane was an IFP member.

MR NYAWUZA: How did it happen that he should tell you?

MR KALI: I have no idea, but it looks like people like Temba were being used by people in Hillbrow, I don't know how, because when he explained about the uniform, he said their boss took the uniform saying that he was going to use it for robberies. So, I cannot say what was happening about them, because they were still young boys, but when he spoke about Mr Ngubane, saying he was an IFP member, that gave me a fright, and he also told me that their boss took the uniform and he wanted to use it for, or shall I say, in robberies.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, you proceeded with Temba to Hillbrow satellite police station. What is it that you had in mind when you went with Temba to this police station? Did you want to hand him in, or did you want to say "people, I have found a person who alleged that he and some accomplice broke into my car the other week, here is he, so see to it that justice is done?"

MR KALI: I took him to the police as somebody whom I found in my car. I went there to lay another charge against him. Fortunately he was linked in the previous case, but I took him back to the police station for laying yet another charge, this time against him, now that he had been found.

MR NYAWUZA: And what is it that transpired at the police station?

MR KALI: Upon our arrival at the police station, there were two policemen. I laid the charge and requested the police that Temba should accompany us to try and retrieve the other clothes. The police agreed and we left, but Temba took us to a wrong flat. We looked around and we did not find a thing. The police was angry and we took Temba again and the police arrested Temba and started assaulting Temba as to why he was not telling the truth.

MR NYAWUZA: So you did not assault Temba at that time?

MR KALI: No, I did not.

MR NYAWUZA: Okay, the police officer assaults Temba. What happened thereafter?

ADV SANDI: How was he assaulted?

MR KALI: There was an iron door, even though it was locked, they were together behind that door, but he was kicking him and assaulting him.

MR NYAWUZA: And then what happened after the assault?

MR KALI: Temba agreed to the police that he was going to take us to where Mr Ngubane was working. That is when the police said that he was not going to where Mr Ngubane was working, and we should take Temba and go there, because his shirt was full of blood stains.

MR NYAWUZA: This police officer, Mr Kali, was he the only person at the time at the police station or were there other police officers?

MR KALI: There were two.

MR NYAWUZA: Did you get any help from the other police officer?

MR KALI: No, the other one didn't even want to get involved, that is when I was suspicious because the other one wanted to help, but the other one didn't want to get involved at all.

MR NYAWUZA: Were these police officers aware, did they know more about Mr Ngubane?

MR KALI: I am not certain about this, but their behaviour made me suspicious. It raised questions as to why they didn't want to help. This was just my suspicion. The other one didn't want to get involved at all.

MR NYAWUZA: So you left with Temba, is that so?

MR KALI: Yes. When we arrived in the car Temba requested me that we should also take his other friend, who was also involved, we should go to where the friend was working. He was working in Boops. When we arrived at that night club called Boops, we went inside and we talked to the guy. As we were leaving, the manager had already called the police, as we were leaving that place, the police were right outside and the police wanted to find out as to what was happening. I gave them the paper which was given to me by the police from Hillbrow and then the police read it and left.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, when you left with Kali from the police station, did you assume that you are legally leaving with him with the consent of the police? What is it that went through your mind when you left with Temba?

MR KALI: I was a bit surprised because I would have expected the police to arrest a suspect. I cannot say the police trusted me, but this is what they did, they just gave Temba to me.

MR NYAWUZA: How did you see your action at the time, Mr Kali, did you see your action of going around with Temba, looking for other suspects as part of your investigations that had the police's blessing or something else? How did you see your action?

MR KALI: I would say I was investigating because at the time, I had two case numbers. When the police came outside that night club, and I explained to them and gave them that paper which I got from the other police station, they didn't arrest me, so I didn't think that I was doing anything wrong. That is why I continued with Temba, looking for other suspects.

MR NYAWUZA: So you give this police this paper and they just say to you "okay, go ahead and do whatever you are doing". Where did you go with Temba from the night club?

MR KALI: When we left that night club, we went to the place where Mr Ngubane was working.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have Temba's friend with you as well?

MR KALI: Yes. When we arrived to Mr Ngubane's place of work, Temba approached Mr Ngubane and said to Mr Ngubane "this men are requesting for their possessions". Mr Ngubane said Temba mustn't be crazy. Then and there, I became suspicious. Temba didn't introduce any of us, he just requested for the clothing. That is when I started speaking to Mr Ngubane myself. I said "Mr Ngubane, Temba said my clothes were in his department and therefore I was requesting them", and Mr Ngubane said I mustn't be crazy.

MR NYAWUZA: At that time, did you have the room number of where Temba had stored the goods?

MR KALI: Temba did say it was in room number 310.

MR NYAWUZA: Did you go to room 310?

MR KALI: Mr Ngubane refused for us to go to room 310.

MR NYAWUZA: What kind of work was Mr Ngubane doing at this place?

MR KALI: He was the security guard. But later I discovered that he would allocate people in the different rooms.

MR NYAWUZA: So you couldn't go to a room without being given permission by Mr Ngubane, on that day?

MR KALI: Yes.

MR NYAWUZA: Okay, you are refused access to room 310, Mr Ngubane denies knowledge of anything that Temba says he has knowledge of. What happened then?

MR KALI: I had no other means to enter the hotel, therefore I left.

MR NYAWUZA: Where did you go, who did you leave with?

MR KALI: It was myself, Temba and Temba's friend. Temba also told me that there were other clothing which they have stolen from me, which were kept in Twilight Zone, where the street kids were staying. We went there as well and I explained to the woman I met there, and the woman said we can look around. We did and I didn't find anything. Then we left. At the time it was towards morning. We were tired and then I decided to go back to the office and rest. We went to the ANC offices, we stayed in the reception. The time was almost six o'clock in the morning. We stayed in the reception until eight o'clock in the morning, then we proceeded to the police station the following morning and we discovered that there were no, the policemen who were working the previous night, had already gone home. There were two policemen who were working during that day. When I explained to them that they should arrest Temba, they said to me they would never do that, they would never take someone who had been assaulted and put him in custody. I explained to them that Temba had said that he had sold the speakers which they have stolen from my car, to the taxi, to a certain taxi driver, and I explained to the police that I needed at least one police who would accompany me to this particular taxi driver, who had bought the speakers, and the police refused. That is when I realised that the police cannot help me. At that time I was young for someone to take me seriously. I went back to the ANC offices and requested Petrus Mkwanazi to accompany me, because he was senior to me and I thought that someone would understand him. We went to a certain flat and we entered. As we were entering to that flat, the speaker was there where Temba said it was. Mkwanazi explained to them that we were not there to fight anyone, we were there to take the speakers. The person who had bought the speakers said we could take the speakers, it means he had lost, because he had bought something which was stolen. We took the speaker back to the police station, we showed the police that we had found the speaker. We had found the speaker which we had requested them to accompany us, to help us find the speaker. The police said to us, "it means you are good investigators and good police, you can do this job well than us. You have recovered the speaker, then you can continue with the rest of the investigation". At that time it was during the day, on Sunday, and we went ahead with our investigation. We discovered the other boys who were with Temba when they broke into the car, and some of them were still wearing my clothes. We took these boys to the offices. In the office, we were in the reception. That is when we realised that the office was now crowded. In the afternoon we decided that we cannot keep them in the reception and I couldn't take them to the police station, because at the police station no one wanted to take them. I took them to the basement.

MR NYAWUZA: A lot of items were found. Did you find your military uniform?

MR KALI: No, I did not.

MR NYAWUZA: Did you find the documentation that was linked to the Security Branch?

MR KALI: No.

MR NYAWUZA: And all this time you knew Temba had taken you to Mr Ngubane, and it is your evidence that some boys had been apprehended that were involved. Was Mr Ngubane amongst the people that were apprehended on the Sunday?

MR KALI: No, at that time we had not found Mr Ngubane. He was off and he was not there during the day.

MR NYAWUZA: So you take these boys to the basement and what happened there?

MR KALI: We waited for Mr Ngubane because we knew that six o'clock he was going to come to work. His boss was not there, because I was told that this boss by the name of Rasta, he is the one who had taken my uniform. We started looking for Rasta at about four or five o'clock and we didn't find Rasta. At about six o'clock, we went to look for Mr Ngubane because he was supposed to come, to report on duty. We explained to Mr Ngubane, we were not now questioning him, but we were telling him. We told him that I had been there with Temba and his friend, that I wanted more information from him and he refused, now I was giving him the information. We explained to Mr Ngubane that we wanted the bag which had the pamphlets and that is when he started wanting to fight with us. We took Mr Ngubane by force this time, and put him inside the car, and then we left with him.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, you have stated in your evidence that some of these boys, when you apprehended them, they had your clothing on. What other clothing did the other boys have, besides the ones that had your clothing on? What kind of clothing were the others dressed in?

MR KALI: One boy had an ANC T-shirt, Mr Ngubane had a white shirt and a maroon jacket. Underneath the white shirt, there was a T-shirt, even though we didn't know what type of a T-shirt until we arrived with him in the office, that is when we saw that it was an IFP T-shirt underneath the shirt. That is when Mr Ngubane became a problem to us, because he didn't want to come up with the truth. All the boys were pointing at him, but he refused. At that time I didn't have all the information, but later when I went with the manager in that apartment where Mr Ngubane was working, the manager opened the door and we found those clothing, including the linen, the duvet which was stolen from me. Mr Ngubane knew all along about this, but just didn't want to cooperate. Now, Mr Ngubane was with us, but now we wanted to leave, we wanted to go and look for Rasta, his boss, and we realised that there were too many of these boys. We decided that we were going to leave some of them. There was a lift which had been broken or was not working, because if you were to enter, you would need someone to open it.

MR NYAWUZA: These people, you have been with these guys, Temba to be more specific, numerously to the ANC Regional Office. I mean on Saturday you were with him there and on Sunday you are with him there. Did the leadership know that you had Temba and these guys at the basemen? Did anybody know that, besides the leadership?

MR KALI: Before I can answer this question let me just explain one thing, I wasn't with Temba on Saturday. My contact with Temba on Saturday was very short. I was with Temba early hours of Sunday morning. We can count the Saturday out, because it was after midnight of Saturday, it was in the early hours of Sunday. During the day, when Temba was in the office, he was just sitting like everyone. I would say some saw, but they didn't know what was going on. Even though the leadership would have seen them, but they may not know what was going on.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Ngubane's denial of his knowledge of these boys, what did that tell you? Did it tell you that he was trying to hide something or what was it that went through your mind when he denied knowledge of these boys?

MR KALI: I could tell that he just didn't want to come out with the truth because I didn't see any reason why he wouldn't tell the truth, that the boys came and sold the bag to him because he wasn't the one who was involved in the actual stealing.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, You realised that Mr Ngubane has got an IFP T-shirt, and at the time there was some conflict between the ANC and the IFP, what did you say, you know, amongst yourselves, the guys that you were with, regarding the T-shirt? Did you take Mr Ngubane on about the T-shirt, "you even have this thing", blah, blah, what is it that happened after you realised that Mr Ngubane had an IFP T-shirt on?

MR KALI: I felt that my life was threatened because all these boys were pointing at Mr Ngubane, and on the other hand, Mr Ngubane doesn't want to come out with the truth. I was scared.

MR NYAWUZA: You were scared and you said in Zulu that the problem started between you and Mr Ngubane. What problem?

MR KALI: Mr Ngubane was supposed to tell us as to what was going on. He didn't want to come out with the truth, but we could tell that he knew a lot.

MR NYAWUZA: So what measures did you take to make him talk?

MR KALI: He was assaulted.

MR NYAWUZA: Were you part of the people that assaulted Mr Ngubane, in that I would believe that you were agitated?

MR KALI: Yes, I was one of the people who assaulted him.

MR NYAWUZA: And did Mr Ngubane ultimately come out with the truth?

MR KALI: He was not in the office for a long time before the police arrived. We were questioning him, different things were happening at the same time. We left Mr Ngubane there because I had already made up my mind that if he wasn't coming out with the truth, I was going to go back with him to the police station. We left, looking for Rasta in the night clubs, but we didn't find him. I came back and my intention this time was to take them back to the police station, because we had enough evidence. Frank had requested me to accompany him to Soweto. I explained to Frank that I cannot go with him to Soweto because I was busy with this case. Frank said I was the only one that could accompany him, because he had problems in his girlfriend's place. Eventually I agreed to accompany Frank. When we arrived back to the office, after Soweto, we discovered that that boy who was to accompany them to find Rasta, had escaped and I only found out when I was reading his documents that he escaped after he requested them to go and buy food. He ran to the police. As I was preparing, back in the office, preparing to take them to the police, before I could take them, the police were in the building. That is when a fight broke, because we didn't want to let the police in. The police broke the gate and they came inside. We switched off the main switch of the building, there were no firing at each other, but what happened is that we eventually had all the police's firearms in our possession. Later we were told that we shouldn't fight with them, we should give the police their firearms back, and they can take these people back to the police station. We were not arrested. The following day we were requested to make statements and these statements are the statements which are in the bundles.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, most of your stuff apparently had been recovered, besides the military uniform and apparently the placards, I didn't hear you say anything about them. Upon your knowledge that Mr Ngubane was involved, what came to your mind? Did you think this thing had any political objective to it?

MR KALI: Yes, I would say so because the ANC and the IFP were not in good terms. We were political enemies. And also, what I can say is that during that time, in our offices many things happened. This happened after the march of the IFP and it also happened after the bomb which had exploded and the previous week, we were also attacked. We were driving an ANC kombi and it was attacked, that kombi. There were many of us in that kombi. Then there was another kombi which was driving on the left lane, we were on the right lane. As we were driving in Jeppe, to corner Troy, the kombi came straight and hit our kombi and our kombi turned over. As our kombi had been turned over, gunfire were heard. When police arrived, they didn't even want to hear from us, they arrested us. That is when I realised that I might be arrested since I had an unlicensed firearm, because we tried to explain to the police that somebody was shooting at us, not that we were shooting. I escaped and I went to the office, and the same day we were admitted in hospital. This happened after all these incidents, after a series of incidents. Since I am not a fortune teller, I couldn't tell whether breaking into my car was connected with all these series of incidents or not, but that is what I thought.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, would you say the political objectivity of the whole thing started when the car was broken into or after you had realised that Mr Ngubane was involved? When do you think the whole political attachment to the whole thing, started?

MR KALI: I would say I thought immediately after my car had been broken in, because that car looked like an ANC car. One could never tell it was just my car, therefore I would think anyone who would break into that car, would think of the ANC and not myself.

MR NYAWUZA: So, is it correct that you are applying for amnesty for the three offences that were previously mentioned, the possession of an unlicensed firearm, kidnapping and assault?

MR KALI: That is correct.

MR NYAWUZA: As regards kidnapping, Mr Kali, will I be correct in saying, I think I heard your testimony, were you saying that you were subsequently going to hand in the guys that you had apprehended, to the police?

MR KALI: When I was doing this, I didn't perceive any of my actions as wrong or illegal because I had been to the police, and whatever I was doing, I have been going back to the police and reporting back to them. Even in the office, I did explain to some as to what was going on, and even to the police themselves, I was updating them.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Kali, what goes through your mind, what went through your mind when you found documents stolen, but not the pump action? What did that tell you?

MR KALI: That is when I realised that whoever broke into my car, wanted something crucial and very important because if it was a simple criminal, he would have stolen the gun, not the pamphlets and not the important documents. That is what went through my head, that the thief was not interested in the gun, rather was interested in the information.

MR NYAWUZA: Were the documents found?

MR KALI: No.

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask you in regard to the one aspect that you touched upon. You said that you, you were explaining in the office what was happening. Did you explain that you were pursuing this matter and you were trying to recover whatever was taken, including the security documentation?

MR KALI: Yes, I did explain to them that I was trying to get back what had been stolen. What scared me most was that who had in his possession the pamphlets, that was one thing which was scaring me because among the boys whom we have apprehended, none of them had the pamphlets and Mr Ngubane didn't want to come out with the truth either.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to complete the aspect that I was touching on, what was the attitude of the people in the office? Did they order you to stop, did they tell you that you shouldn't be doing this or what was their attitude?

MR KALI: I wouldn't be able to remember the precise attitude, but what I can say is that no one said I should stop. Up until very late that day, they said the boys should be taken to the police station, because they couldn't keep them in the reception area. The person or whoever was present in the office, the leadership, they all saw this.

CHAIRPERSON: The people that you spoke with in the office, were they superior to you, in other words were they your superiors?

MR KALI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that some of the members of the leadership would have seen these people that were in the office?

MR KALI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did any of them enquire as to what was happening?

MR KALI: Most of them knew about this, because I had already reported to them after my car had been broken into. Therefore what I did was to simply inform them that these were the boys who had broken into my car.

CHAIRPERSON: And specifically these members of the leadership that you are referring to, did they respond in any way to the situation?

MR KALI: I don't quite understand but what happened is that I did explain to them that these were the boys who broke in my car, and I explained to them that I was still looking for the pamphlets and documents which had been taken from my car. After that they didn't say anything.

CHAIRPERSON: They didn't say anything, they didn't tell you to do anything specifically, they didn't participate in this at all, but they also didn't intervene at all? They just did nothing, they just listened to your report, would I understand the position correctly?

MR KALI: No, they didn't. I will try and explain what exactly happened. It was the ANC culture that if someone had done something wrong, we would take that person and take them to the police, therefore I did explain to them that I had already taken these boys to the police and I also showed them the case number. That is why they were not scared of anything when I had these boys in the office.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kali, I understood you to say that at some stage you were told to take them to the police, because there weren't enough room to keep them at the offices, isn't that so?

MR KALI: No, I am the one who decided to take them to the car.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you never told to take them to the police?

MR KALI: Late in the evening, I was told to take them to the police.

ADV BOSMAN: Is this before or after you had been to Frank's home in Soweto?

MR KALI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: No, it is not clear to me, was it before or after you had gone to Frank that you were told to take them to the police?

MR KALI: It was said so before I accompanied Frank to Soweto, and then I explained to the leadership that I was still looking for their boss, Rasta, who had the uniform and I was going to take all of them to the police station.

ADV BOSMAN: What was the urgency of going with Frank? The leadership had now told you that you must take them to the police, you didn't do this, you explained to them that you were still looking for Rasta, but in the meantime you decided to go with Frank. What was the urgency of this, you said he had problems with his girlfriend?

MR KALI: In fact, if I look at it now, I would say I made a mistake there, by accompanying Frank first because Frank's issue wasn't as urgent as this one. Frank requested me to accompany him, even though I tried to explain to Frank that this was urgent, but he said we will be back soon. And I agreed, and I think I made a mistake by agreeing.

ADV BOSMAN: What was the problem that Frank had, was it at all necessary, you are now engaged in a serious matter, you are looking for sensitive ANC material that has been stolen from your car, so what was so important about Frank that you decided to go with him instead of pursuing this issue which was very serious to your organisation? Can't you just tell us what the nature of Frank's problem was, can you remember?

MR KALI: Frank was staying with his girlfriend who was from Soweto, they were staying in Katlehong and they broke up and he went and stayed with another girlfriend, or a new girlfriend from Diepkloof, and then one day, as he was with his new girlfriend, the old girlfriend came and he had, or the girlfriend, the old girlfriend had burnt the new girlfriend with boiling water, and then the family now of the girlfriend had problems with Frank and I knew about this problem and the girlfriend's family. Therefore Frank requested me, since I had already explained to the family of the new girlfriend as to what exactly happened. That is why Frank persuaded me on that evening, to go with him. I was surprised when I was told that they had left this other boy, after he had requested them to go and buy food, that is how he escaped and went to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. As you say you might or might not have erred in getting involved in this issue about the girlfriends. What I want to know is, after you explained to the leadership that you thought that you should be looking for the boss of Mr Ngubane, what was the attitude of the leadership? Were they satisfied with that, that you would return these people to the police once you had completed that angle of the matter, or what was their attitude? Did they tell you "look, forget about the boss, take them immediately", or what was their response?

MR KALI: When I told them one was missing, they did not indicate any problem, and when I told them that I was going out to look for Rasta and on finding him, I will take them all to the police station, nobody said "that is wrong, you should not do that, take them all to the police station now". When I said what I said, they had no problem with that and I indicated to them that upon finding Rasta, I will take them all to the police station, because I had no intention of keeping them there any further, because it was now late. I wanted to take them to the police station because now I had lost all hope of ever securing the lost documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will take a brief adjournment for 15 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MXOLISI KALI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: I have a few questions Chairperson, to put to the applicant. Mr Kali, can you explain to the Committee how, when incidents like this one here, that is the focus of this application, when things like this happen in the office, how were they dealt with? Did you needed permission from your seniors to investigate or would you report and then let them deal with it, or you as a security person in charge or could you decide what to do? Did you have a discretion on what to do?

MR KALI: I don't know how to put it. Let me put it in such a way that I say the ANC in most instances was not operating along similar lines as government. They were able to delegate and you would come and report late. For example in the East-Rand whilst we were still in the East-Rand, each time there was a problem I would take it upon myself to solve the problem and report later. I don't know whether to call it a culture or what but there was this tendency that you would do something and let it pass, but in this particular instance I informed them about the whole situation and told them that I went to the police and got permission from the police, so that immediately I mentioned the police, nobody was upset about me having broken the law or anything like that. Even though the ANC was still not wholly accepted, but they were opposed to breaking the law.

MS MTANGA: Who was the person in charge of the Security Department in the Regional Office of the ANC at that time?

MR KALI: Mr Africa Khumalo.

MS MTANGA: Did you report to Mr Khumalo about what happened?

MR KALI: Yes.

MS MTANGA: What was his reaction or his response?

MR KALI: I cannot recall precisely, but what I did, I showed him this piece of paper from the police station indicating to him that I had laid a charge. I should also add that in most instances, in the past, you see, I cannot recall many of the things that happened in the past, you see everybody was busy and really there was no time for him to could sit down with me and discuss this. I too, was out doing my duties. In most instances, during the week and before that, I would come to work, normally after work, and I would do or continue with my investigations so that it would not interfere with my duties.

MS MTANGA: The persons that you had arrested, for how long were they kept in the ANC offices?

MR KALI: I don't know how to explain this. You see, I spent most of the time, or most of the time with Temba rather than with the other large group. I managed to secure Temba and the other one that I found at Boops. The other ones I found during the day, around one or two o'clock, and when I went to the basement ultimately, it was now in the evening, around six or seven o'clock. That was after I had left the office, went down to the basement and when they went to the office, they came there with Mr Ngubane. They did not go to the cage with Mr Ngubane, but they did not spend the whole day there, so that they did not spend the same time at the office.

MS MTANGA: Did you say Mr Khumalo was aware or may have been aware of the presence of Temba in the office, and later on, of the other group that amongst them was Mr Ngubane?

MR KALI: The office was not operating on Sundays, so I saw Mr Khumalo only late. I don't know whether he was aware of this during the day or not

MS MTANGA: Mr Khumalo gave a statement to the police just after this, on the day of the incident or just after the day of this incident stating that he had twice told you to take back, to take this youth to the police. Do you recall that, were you ever told by Mr Khumalo to take these people to the police?

MR KALI: I recall him telling me that at the basement, but I would say he only told me at the time when I saw him and that was late, he indicated that I should take them to the police. I explained to him what I was up to, but I cannot say that I defied him.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Panel, any questions?

ADV SANDI: Just on this very last one. Mr Khumalo told you to take these people to the police, why did you not adhere to that instruction then?

MR KALI: I will not say I did not follow instructions. I explained to him that I was only short of one person, Rasta, whom I was going out to look for. I did not refuse. Because now the problem that I was facing was that each time that I went to the police station, I did not get the assistance that I expected.

ADV SANDI: Did he accept the explanation that you had given him, that you were still short of this person, Rasta, and that you still had to look for him? Did Mr Khumalo accept that?

MR KALI: I would not say yes or no because he only left after having told me what to do. He was in a hurry for a meeting.

ADV SANDI: Let's go back to that piece of paper which you say you had from the police. What exactly did it say?

MR KALI: When I went to the police, I explained my problem to him and I enquired as to whether I can investigate the case on my own, and he said the only thing that he could do, was to state in his documents that I was in the office and I went there with a request to investigate the case myself. That I could only do, he said, if I was a reservist, provided they granted me permission to do that. I did not know how reservists operated and he said if the person who is in charge of reservists can give you permission, you can go ahead and do that. They gave me the letter, containing that indication.

When I produced the letter to the police, upon leaving Boops, he read the note with the stamp and he said nothing to that effect, so I don't know whether the note was giving me permission to go ahead, but at least it indicated that I went to the police and this is the kind of problem that I had.

ADV SANDI: When you spoke with Mr Khumalo and you told him that some items had been stolen from the vehicle, one of them being documents containing sensitive security information, what was his reaction? Would you say he was as concerned as you were about these security documents?

MR KALI: Yes, I did inform him about the pamphlets, but he did not present himself as a worried person.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kali, perhaps on my colleague's question, you should distinguish between sensitive security information and pamphlets. They were not the same, or were they the same?

MR KALI: No, these are two different things. The important documents that I am talking about were the ones in the bag, for example they contained information about forthcoming meetings and they actually contained the programmes for meetings, etc. These are the things that I am talking about.

ADV SANDI: Did you tell Mr Khumalo that those were some of the documents that had been stolen in the car, documents setting out plans for meetings and places where such meetings were going to be held?

MR KALI: Yes, I did.

ADV SANDI: And when you testified in your evidence-in-chief you said you were very much concerned about the fact that these were some of the documents that had been stolen from the car, that feeling of yours, would you say Mr Khumalo shared it? Did he have the same feeling as you, pertaining specifically to those security related documents?

MR KALI: I am not in a position to pronounce on that. One other concern that I had in my mind, was the fact that some of the documents had my residential address and my ID. You see, the pamphlets pertaining to the organisation could have been, you know, handled in a different way because they could have rescheduled or do something else, but in my case, I was not in a position to provide security for my family. But the organisation could easily solve the security problem by rescheduling or doing something else. But in my case they could have easily gone to the same address and wipe out my family. That was my major concern.

You see, the security problem was not so much in my mind.

ADV SANDI: Should I understand you to say that you did not really have a detailed conversation with Mr Khumalo when you gave him this report, he was in a hurry and this was something like ten days before the elections, everyone was very busy? Is that the position here?

MR KALI: You see, I was not reporting to Mr Khumalo directly. I used to report to Frank directly. But this doesn't presuppose that I would not report to Mr Khumalo. I instead informed Frank in detail about what transpired. But at the time when I spoke to him, I did make indications, I don't know whether he had already had this information prior to my meeting him or not.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much. Thank you Chair.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kali, you have made several references to the leadership, that you reported to the leadership, leadership knew about it. Who are the people that you include in your reference to leadership that were there at the Regional Office? Is it only Frank and Mr Khumalo or were there others?

MR KALI: Yes, there are others.

ADV BOSMAN: Could you give us the names please?

MR KALI: Mr Robert McBride, Vusi Gunene as well as Mondle Gungebele.

ADV BOSMAN: And they were all there on the Sunday? On the Sunday of the incident?

MR KALI: They were not working on Sundays, but they would come and go.

ADV BOSMAN: On that Sunday of the incident, who were the leadership that you had been in contact with, who knew about this?

MR KALI: Before or actually on Sunday?

ADV BOSMAN: Only on the Sunday, you said leadership knew about this incident, they had more or less by implication authorised you to do what you did?

MR KALI: I did not say unequivocally that they authorised me, I informed them that my vehicle had been broken into and these are the people responsible. I went to the police station to lay the charge, etc. They were only appreciative of the fact that I went to the police station and I produced case numbers. I cannot say that they gave me that authorisation.

ADV BOSMAN: Let's try again. Just listen to my question. I understand that you had given this information to members of the leadership. I want to know, on the Sunday, who were the members of the leadership that you had given this information or part of this information, to?

MR KALI: Mr Khumalo and Robert McBride, Vusi Gunene also came. I cannot recall the names of the others.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay. Now, the sensitive information that you were referring to, I am just asking, didn't you carry this sort of information on your person, instead of letting it lay around, you were a trained man?

MR KALI: Yes, the information was always in my person, but that particular instance, it did not occur to me that in that split of a second or split of a minute, whilst I was in the shop, they could break into the vehicle. It just did not occur to me that on leaving Fontana, the car would have been broken into.

ADV BOSMAN: When you went to Ngubane's apartment where he worked, or the building where he worked, in your evidence-in-chief you said that you asked him about the items of clothing and linen that had been stolen. Didn't you raise the question of the documents that had been stolen, with him?

MR KALI: Yes, I did.

ADV BOSMAN: At what stage did you raise it with him?

MR KALI: Upon arrival, when we went to see him for the first time, that was on Sunday evening. That is at the time when I was in the company of Temba, when Temba said to Mr Ngubane, "these are the people, Mr Ngubane, give them the things" and he said we should not involve him, and I told him that the boys claim to have sold him bags containing, a bag containing papers, and he refused knowledge.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you. The reason why I ask the question was because in your evidence-in-chief you concentrated on the items that were stolen, you did not then mention the documents, in your conversation with Mr Ngubane.

MR KALI: My apology on that one, but I did enquire about the bag because he was the last person to be in possession of the bag. I indicated that I would have been pleased, had the boys said they burnt the contents of the bag, but they said they just gave the whole bag to Mr Ngubane.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, and then there is just one other aspect that I would like to get clarity on. This is the chronological sequence of events. At what time did you and Frank go to Soweto?

MR KALI: It was on Sunday, in the evening.

ADV BOSMAN: More or less a time?

MR KALI: It could have been around seven, seven o'clock because we had just come back with Mr Ngubane, where he was working. They told us he starts work at six. We went to the Regional Office, spent some time at the reception and we went to Hillbrow to look for this other young man and on coming back, we then drove to Soweto. It could have been around seven o'clock, yes.

ADV BOSMAN: At what time did you last see Mr Khumalo?

MR KALI: Which Khumalo?

ADV BOSMAN: Your senior, Mr Khumalo who had told you to take the boys to the police station? Mr Africa Khumalo.

MR KALI: After telling me what to do, he left. That was just before I left for Soweto with Frank.

ADV BOSMAN: Right. Now, if I can just take you back, this is what has been concerning me all the time. Mr Khumalo told you to take them back to the police station, and thereafter you left with Frank. Are you sure of that now?

MR KALI: Yes, I would say so, even though I cannot recall exactly, but at least that is how it happened. Mr Khumalo told me what to do before I left for Soweto, that I am sure of.

ADV BOSMAN: Correct me if I am wrong, but my memory is that previously you said to me that you had made a mistake, Mr Khumalo told you to take them back after you came back with Frank?

MR KALI: That could have been a mistake on my part, because when we came back from Soweto with Frank, we found this other young men having fled, having gone to the police. When we came back from Soweto, we arrived at the same time as the police so that had I arrived earlier, I would have taken them to the police before the police arrived. We arrived at the same time as the police.

ADV BOSMAN: Just for clarity in my own mind, I am going to ask you a question which I have already asked you. I just want to ask you again to get the matter clear. Mr Khumalo tells you to take them to the police station, you told him that you were still going to look for Rasta and then you go off with Frank to Soweto, because he had a problem with his ex-girlfriend and his new girlfriend and the fact that the one had thrown boiling water at the other one. Now, once again, why was it so important for you to assist Frank with the personal problem, while you were under orders to wrap up this other situation now, and to get these young boys to the police station?

MR KALI: Yes, that gives me a problem, you know. I did indicate earlier on, before we adjourned, that I also had a problem with that. You see, I only came across this file yesterday. I only came across this bundle yesterday and when looking at this young man who fled to the police and our going to Soweto, that doesn't give me any satisfaction, it gives me suspicions instead, because they said this young man ran away. When I enquired from this young man, he says he informed the people who were escorting him, that he wanted to go and buy some food. I just had a problem with that, how could they let him loose and allow him to run away, because I was alone in this trying to gather information about this whole thing.

They allowed this young man to flee. You see, had I been present, I would have stopped and informed the police as he was running away, what that was all about, but they told me the young man had left with the police, that also confused me.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kali, I think you have missed the import of my question, but I won't take it any further. My concern is that I don't understand why when you were involved in such a serious investigation, you went off to Soweto for a while without attending to that very serious problem where you had orders to return them to the police. But I won't take that any further, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Nyawuza?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Only a few questions. Mr Kali, you are subsequently arrested, at some stage you are made to make statements, what was the attitude of the leadership, what is it that they said to you?

MR KALI: They said we were not going to be arrested, instead we were making warning statements, which warning statements are contained in the bundle, but finally I was told that I was going to be suspended and I spoke to the then Chairperson of the ANC, Tokyo Sexwale who said that matter was going to be addressed after the elections. We should, they advised me to admit wrong doing.

MR NYAWUZA: So you were asked to accept responsibility of this act by the leadership?

MR KALI: Correct.

MR NYAWUZA: No further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Chair, there is just one or two questions which I thought I would put to the applicant, just concerning the vehicle. Who was responsible for the general maintenance and upkeep of that vehicle, that kombi which you said belonged to your mother?

MR KALI: Myself.

ADV SANDI: If you took out ANC people for a trip, would you have to put in petrol?

MR KALI: No, the organisation took care of that.

ADV SANDI: The other thing which I think I should ask you, sometimes hierarchy, if there was any kind of hierarchy at all, just between yourself and Frank, was Mr Frank one of the people who could give you instructions?

MR KALI: Correct.

ADV SANDI: Now, when he asked you to accompany him to Soweto, did you regard that as, was that an instruction or a request, how did you understand it?

MR KALI: That was a request because he did not force me.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kali, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyawuza, is there any other evidence?

MR NYAWUZA: Yes Chairperson, we would like to call Mr Robert McBride.

CHAIRPERSON: Can Mr McBride come forward. Let him sit where the applicant is sitting, behind that microphone there, then it is easier. Just ask your client to move.

MR NYAWUZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr McBride, won't you remain standing whilst that microphone is on, so that we can just record you, you can just come a bit closer and just give your full names for the record.

MR McBRIDE: Robert John McBride.

ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: (affirm)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated. Mr Nyawuza?

EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Mr McBride, how do you know the applicant before this Committee today?

MR McBRIDE: I met him at the end of 1992 or the beginning of 1993, whilst I was co-ordinating Defence Units on the East-Rand.

MR NYAWUZA: In what way did you meet him?

MR McBRIDE: I think at some stage the leadership, the local leadership, introduced me to him as one of the people who were assisting to a great deal in the defence of the communities, after attacks by Inkatha and other State surrogate forces.

MR NYAWUZA: What was your involvement in the whole thing?

MR McBRIDE: I would co-ordinate them, I drew up a Code of Conduct and I also supplied them with weapons on various occasions. Also I gave training and I assisted in tactics, in advising on tactics.

MR NYAWUZA: Was he one of the people that you trained?

MR McBRIDE: Yes, he was.

MR NYAWUZA: Would you tell us about him?

MR McBRIDE: Well, for me he was one of the most disciplined, brave and - I can say I was very impressed with him, to such an extent that it was I who introduced him to the Head of our Security, Mr Khumalo, Africa Khumalo, on the basis of him being brave, disciplined and willing to sacrifice himself.

MR NYAWUZA: There is testimony before this Committee that you were advised of the happenings of the 16th and 17th of April, were you so advised, Mr McBride?

MR McBRIDE: If I recall correctly, I was telephoned and I think I was at home, that there was some problem at the office. In fact I think I spoke to the applicant himself and I had asked him whether he had taken the people to the police station and he replied in the positive, "indeed so", and I asked him "did you have a CR number" and he said "yes, I have a CR number". And I said "look, I will come over immediately". Unfortunately by the time that I arrived at the office, the people, the police had arrived there already and had taken the people away. The reason why I was approached was that we had a data base on suspicious people and suspicious incidents, because I was the Head of the Peace Desk which monitored violence in the area. We also together with Mr Africa Khumalo who was our senior in Security, co-ordinated our information. We also did an investigation at some stage within Hillbrow itself, finding addresses of hit-squad members. That is why I was contacted, but unfortunately when I came there, the situation was over already.

MR NYAWUZA: And during the telephone call between yourself and the applicant, did you perhaps condone what he was saying, or did you agree with what he was doing at the time?

MR McBRIDE: Well, if I can recall correctly, I said to him "wait there, I am coming now, and I will come and assist." By implication, I didn't tell him to release them. I think in my own mind, if I can recall correctly, I wanted to question them myself, because we had been subject to a number of attacks prior to that, which clearly, we were being targeted.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr McBride, if you were in the same situation as the applicant, where there is information before you that one of the people that has been apprehended is an IFP member, what would you have done?

MR McBRIDE: I think before I answer directly, I must give you the context of what was happening. During that period, the IFP was first in elections then out of elections, then they were for peace, then they attacked us, and as far as I was concerned at that stage, the IFP was not only an opposition political party, it was an enemy of us and we had engaged in military activity against them and they had attacked communities that we defended.

If I heard it was an IFP person, I would want to know what was his business with our information. I wouldn't have even gone as far as going to the police, because I didn't trust the police in the first place. I have witnessed the police co-operating with Inkatha inner tracks on the East-Rand. So I mean the applicant must be commended for actually going, taking the time of actually going to the police. I think another aspect, we were in a state of limbo. Although there were some joint operations and operations between us and the police, we still saw the police as people to be suspicious of and in fact, our enemies. I wouldn't have gone so far.

MR NYAWUZA: If you were in the applicant's shoes, you go to the police station, you report that you car had been broken into, a very sensitive material has been taken and the police officer say to you "see to finish", what would you do?

MR McBRIDE: Well, I wouldn't be surprised that is the type of treatment that we received from the police then. I wouldn't have left the matter there, I would have investigated it myself, because the very likes of our leadership and our communities, which were loyal to us, were at stake. I wouldn't have left it there, I would have investigated it myself - probably in the same way as the applicant.

MR NYAWUZA: So Mr McBride, in essence you say what the applicant did was commissioned by the seniors to him in that you were one of them, is that so?

MR McBRIDE: Well, let me put it to you this way, I wouldn't have condemned his action. I know there exists a letter somewhere where the ANC says it didn't sanction, formally sanction the activities of the applicant, but that is just a technicality.

CHAIRPERSON: And seen from the perspective of the applicant himself, given this situation that obtained, he says that as far as he was concerned, there was implied authority? What would your comment be on that?

MR McBRIDE: Sorry, what I can say is that he would never act without any kind of order or sanction or go-ahead from the leadership. That is why I recommended him to work with Mr Khumalo. Mr Khumalo is very strict on discipline. The only people who worked with him were people who were disciplined. In fact that is what he sought from people, so he would never act out of his own.

So whether the sanction was implicit or explicit, is irrelevant. I know the applicant and I can say clearly that he acted in the full belief that he was doing the right thing.

MR NYAWUZA: To take the belief further, Mr McBride, would you state that by him having taken the people that he had apprehended to the Regional Offices of the ANC, would that a bearing on the implied authority?

MR McBRIDE: Well, it is a clear indication to me that he is taking him to the movement. If he wanted to do something out of personal reasons, he would take them to some dark corner, if he was that type of person, but he wasn't. He took them to the office and he phoned me.

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any questions, Ms Mtanga?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: ; Just one question Chairperson. Mr McBride, in the circumstances of this incident, would you say it would have been expected of the leadership in the office to have authorised Mr Kali to apprehend these people and bring them into the office?

MR McBRIDE: No, certainly not. We, it is expected of him yes, to take decisions on his own initiative, which is regarding the security of the organisation and of the communities that we protect. There was, in fact on many occasions I had taken decisions which I only reported afterwards, after taking those decisions. For example if, in those days, should we move weapons and units from one section to the other, I didn't have to go and report it to Tokyo, in fact if I did report to Tokyo, he would probably have told me "are you mad, I am busy now, why don't you take decisions on your own, you are on the ground". In the context, as we were all busy with our different departments, and it was a time of crisis and indeed madness in the country, it would not be expected of him to report on every single decision he takes in the field.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am. Panel?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr McBride, the applicant testified to the effect that he was told to take responsibility for his actions and that the matter would be attended to after the elections?

MR McBRIDE: Yes, Ma'am, in fact I was present in a meeting between the applicant, myself and our leader from the province, Tokyo Sexwale, where I was told that the matter would be sorted out, in my presence, after the elections and he has to be the fall guy now and take responsibility. I was in that meeting. In fact his suspension was not even constitutional. The PEC of which I was a member, had to take the decision.

I raised the issue, but they said "we will sort it out after the election".

ADV BOSMAN: Was the matter ever sorted out?

MR McBRIDE: No, Ma'am. Sorry Ma'am, no Ma'am, it wasn't sorted out.

ADV BOSMAN: So has there never been any reference to it again?

MR McBRIDE: No, Ma'am, except on occasion I phoned Tokyo and I asked him "what is the situation" and he said I should contact the people at the office. Hence the letter that I think, must be in your bundle.

ADV BOSMAN: You have never followed it up?

MR McBRIDE: I followed it up, that is where the letter came about.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, but I mean you never followed up the letter, you left it at that then?

MR McBRIDE: The letter, well, this is the next step after the letter, you see, the Truth Commission.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, fine, but internally you did nothing?

MR McBRIDE: Well, I didn't, I didn't get the feeling that people had enough time or they were interested in assisting the applicant. He was one of the people that I worked with, we shared experiences together so I was not going to let him down, I was going to make sure that the process went the whole hog.

ADV BOSMAN: Maybe this is an unfair question of mine, and if you decline to answer it, I would understand. My perception now is that the applicant is being let down by the leadership of the ANC?

MR McBRIDE: Well, I think that is a fair comment to make, except that perhaps they were too busy in government and in the delivery of services. I, if I am still regarded as leadership, I haven't let him down. That is all I am interested in now.

ADV BOSMAN: Perhaps I didn't formulate my comment properly, at this stage, it is either the applicant wilfully disobeyed an order or that the leadership has let him down? It is either the one or the other, I haven't made up my mind about it?

MR McBRIDE: Let me take it a bit further, Ma'am. I think it is a bit of a sensitive question, because it involves people being held against their will. It can be classed in a similar situation as maybe what happenedPirieuatro, and hence it is a sensitive thing and people don't want to touch it and there is political profiles to uphold. For me, the truth is important and what is honourable, must be done. He was one of our best people, and he acted even though it might have been implicit, with authority of the organisation and his intentions were always honourable intentions. Maybe that is the reason why.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: I don't have a question, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Nyawuza?

MR NYAWUZA: No re-examination, thank you Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr McBride, you are excused, thank you.

MR McBRIDE: Thank you sir.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?

MR NYAWUZA: No, that would be the case for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I intend to call Mr Africa Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo? Can Mr Khumalo come forward and just take up a seat in front of one of these microphones on the left. Just switch it on as well, thank you. Can you give us your full names for the record, please?

MR KHUMALO: Oupa Shadrack Khumalo, also known as Africa.

OUPA SHADRACK KHUMALO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please be seated. Ms Mtanga?

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Khumalo, can you explain to the Committee what was your position at the ANC Regional Office in 1994, when this incident took place?

MR KHUMALO: I was the Regional Head of the Department of Intelligence and Security of the ANC.

MS MTANGA: Was the applicant under your supervision?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, he was a member of that department.

MS MTANGA: On page 59 of the bundle, there is a statement made by you to the police in 1994, I would like you to have a look at it and confirm whether that is the statement that you made to the police? It is page 59 to 65, it is the full statement. Is that your signature on page 64?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, it is.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khumalo, I would like to refer you to that affidavit that you made to the police and together with the letter sent by the ANC to our office, where it stated that it regarded this incident as politically motivated, but it didn't sanction such an incident. I would like you to explain to the Committee what is your attitude as the person who Headed the Security of the ANC Regional Office at that time. What was your attitude towards the actions taken by the applicant in handling this incident?

MR KHUMALO: There is a problem here that I have with the letter where it says the leadership did not sanction it. The leadership has never been engaged in any operational matter. The member, his vehicle was broken into and he decided to report the matter to the police and the police did not take action, and he decided to act on his own. I think in as far as the action, there is nothing wrong that the member has done, except that he did not take those criminals to the police.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khumalo, in the light of the evidence of the applicant that he was under the impression that the police have allowed him, or had permitted him to apprehend the culprits, were you aware of that permission that he thought he had from the police?

MR KHUMALO: What has happened is this, that when I established the presence of these people in that cage, I immediately gave instructions that these people must be taken to the police and I immediately went to a meeting because I was there, I was attending a meeting at the Shell House, at that time.

MS MTANGA: In the events that you were aware that the applicant had this permission from the police, or he thought he had the permission from the police, would you have still demanded him to take these people to the police?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, because where my concern was is the fact that we had these people at our own offices, and when, later it was established that they are members of the IFP, or one of them was a member of the IFP, then that even raised more concerns in the sense that the security of the place is compromised.

MS MTANGA: According to the applicant you told him to take these people back to the police, at the time you told him this, that was about after seven o'clock or at about seven o'clock, and at this time you had been for a meeting?

MR KHUMALO: No, I don't think he is correct there, because I met, I think it was Jeff Kwembu, because I think it was around to seven, my meeting at Shell House was starting at seven, so I met Jeff Kwembu. I instructed, told, informed Jeff Kwembu to inform Mxolisi that he must take these people to the police. I think there is a mistake here, because at that time, I didn't meet him, he wasn't around the office at that time.

MS MTANGA: So you never specifically told him to take these people, you told somebody else to tell him?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, even for a second time, I spoke to I think it was Madiba, when I learnt that those people were still there.

MS MTANGA: Did the applicant personally report to you about the incident?

MR KHUMALO: That was after the police came to the building, that was the only time that we had the chance to talk about the incident.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Mtanga, can I just for clarity, which Madiba is this? You have mentioned Madiba?

MR KHUMALO: No, not the former President. He was one of the members of the Security Department.

MS MTANGA: My last question to you Mr Khumalo, the fact that when you came back from the meeting, on your affidavit on page 61, paragraph 20, you indicate that you came back from the meeting at about quarter to eleven in the evening, and you still found these people locked up by the applicant? In the light of the instructions that you had given earlier on, did you regard this as a failure to obey your orders and instructions, as someone holding some authority in the office?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, that was my initial reaction, but when I got the explanation further from him, that there was one suspect, outstanding suspect that he was looking for, that his intention was to apprehend the last suspect and then to take all the suspects to the police, so when I arrived from Shell House, the police were already there.

MS MTANGA: My final question, I put a question to Mr McBride about the powers that you Security people had, did they rely on being given instructions or could they have, could they decide, did they have discretion to deal with situations as they saw fit, or what was the position?

MR KHUMALO: One of the things that we trained our members was to exercise, was to have initiatives. That, in any given situation, they must be able to take decisions, any operational decision they've got to take it without any reference to any senior person.

MS MTANGA: That is the end of my questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am. Mr Nyawuza, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA: Yes, only two

questions. Mr Khumalo, having been advised about the motor vehicle and some stuff that had been stolen from the motor vehicle, amongst which documents that related to the ANC's security movements, would you today regard that as a political objective, after having found out that one of the people that were involved in the whole thing, was an IFP member?

MR KHUMALO: Definitely. My concern came about later when we established that one of the fellows involved, was an IFP member, and considering that the vehicle that Mr Kali was driving, had ANC stickers around and those posters, it really became a concern that at the end, one of those people, yes, I think one, happened to be a member of the IFP.

MR NYAWUZA: The last question Mr Khumalo, would you have, would you today say that Mr Kali acted on implied authority, did he think that maybe he had been given authority by the leadership, amongst them, Mr Robert McBride when he did explain to them that this is the situation that I am in and I intend doing A, B, C and from there I will then take these guys back. Would you regard that as an authority that might have been implied by the leadership not taking action, not saying to him "don't do that, stop that and do A, B and C"?

MR KHUMALO: Yes, well, from his explanation of what the situation was, and the fact that he says that I am looking for this one suspect, one remaining suspect, the fact that nobody from the seniors or from the leadership, senior person like Mr McBride was also, who was also a member of the PEC then, without him saying "no, don't go", I would personally agree that there was some form of authority.

That is why at the beginning, my only concern was the issue of who sanctions, who gives authority on matters like this. You are faced with a situation, you take decisions, those decisions being right or wrong in that given situation. At the end of the day, whatever decision you sort of take, you are taking it on the positive side to achieve positive results, rather than wanting to impact negatively on that.

MR NYAWUZA: Mr Khumalo, you have known the applicant before the Committee today and I believe he was working under you. How would you rate him discipline wise?

MR KHUMALO: Mr Kali was one of the outstanding members of my Department. He was one individual that you could rely on, one individual that you could at any time of the day send within any situation and expect him to act responsibly.

MR NYAWUZA: The fact that Mr Kali would come and use his mother's motor vehicle, what did that tell you about him, what did that tell you about his allegiance to the movement?

MR KHUMALO: The man was committed to the just cause that we were engaged in, and that kind of commitment was also seen in the fact that we had a serious problem of vehicles at that point in time, that he would go to that extend to provide and assist his organisation with the family vehicle. That in itself describes the kind of person the applicant is, and his commitment to the cause of his organisation.

MR NYAWUZA: No further questions, thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Just following up on what Mr Nyawuza asked you, Mr Khumalo, in these circumstances that prevailed here, would you have expected the applicant, given the way that you know him, would you have expected him to act in the best interest of the organisation and its security?

MR KHUMALO: Absolutely sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Does the panel have any other questions?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson, thank you.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Khumalo, thank you very much, you are excused.

MR KHUMALO: Thank you honourable Chairperson.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Any other evidence that you are tendering?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson, that is all from me.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nyawuza, on the merits of the application?

MR NYAWUZA IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson and honourable Committee members, evidence is before us, this matter started off as a common criminal case, where somebody breaks into anybody's car, but if we take it further and look at the car that had been broken into, it was a very conspicuous car, it had all the emblems of the ANC, all the things pointed to the motor vehicle belonging to the ANC.

In accordance with the testimony of the applicant, whoever broke into that motor vehicle had something against the ANC. Even the documents that were taken from the said motor vehicle, were of a very sensitive nature. The applicant did not off hand take the matter into his own hand. He approached the authorities at the time, he went to the SAPS, got the case number, requested their assistance, but to no avail. He even had to for a few hours or days, request that he be enlisted as a reservist to see to it that justice is done, that the people that had broken into his motor vehicle, are brought to book. Further, he works in contact with the police, his investigations produce good and the fact, if the applicant was doing something that was not impliedly authorised by the leadership, Chairperson, he wouldn't have taken the people that he had apprehended to the Regional Headquarters of the ANC, he would have taken them somewhere else.

The evidence of Mr McBride speaks volumes about the applicant. The evidence of Mr Africa Khumalo says volumes as well about the applicant. The applicant was a very disciplined person, and whatever he did here, the fact that there is no disprove of the fact that he had two case numbers, that he had followed the law to the letter, shows that he did everything in order. We believe there was a political objective here in, in that one of the people that is subsequently apprehended by the applicant is an IFP member, and it is common cause that during the period, there was turmoil. There was conflict between the IFP and the ANC and that such sensitive documents had to disappear, it leads us to believing that yes, in fact, the IFP may to some extent have been involved.

That Mr Ngubane did not ultimately say yes, the documents were used here and there. We believe that there is full disclosure, the applicant does not deny having assaulted Mr Ngubane. The applicant does not deny having been part of the people that kidnapped Mr Ngubane. The applicant has not in his testimony denied that he had a firearm. He has disclosed everything before this Committee, in fact he even went a step further and said "I would wish the leadership to be here, to confirm that this is what happened". So I believe that he's got to be granted amnesty with the submission that he has made today. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Any submissions, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson, I would like to leave this in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. That concludes the formal part of the application, the panel will consider the matter and we will endeavour to produce a decision on the matter as soon as circumstances permit that to happen, at which stage we will all of the parties with an interest in the matter, know of the outcome of the application.

Under those circumstances, the matter, the decision in the matter will be reserved. We thank you for your assistance Mr Nyawuza and you could be excused if you so wish.

MR NYAWUZA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the lunch adjournment at this stage and we will reconvene then at two o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS