Amnesty Hearings

JOHANNES CHRISTOFFEL MEYER: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Meyer, we cannot recall, I would have to ask you, you are an applicant in this matter and you request amnesty with all the other applicants for any offence or delict committed by you with regard to this attack in Botswana in 1985, is that correct?

MR MEYER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You have already previously appeared before this Chairperson and Mr Malan, and given evidence.

MR MEYER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And on that occasion a letter from a doctor, Dr Jacobs, was handed up, is that correct?

MR MEYER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: That was Exhibit C. Chairperson, I cannot recall which application it was.

Can you perhaps recall?

MR MEYER: It was the weapons cache point in Krugersdorp.

MR VISSER: Thank you. And now I will give the document to my learned friend, Chairperson. The reason why we do not have copies - let us embarrass ourselves for a moment here, is because we recall that we handed it in, but we can make copies available and hand it to everyone.

CHAIRPERSON: I will explain it to my colleague here. The most important thing is that it gets to Mr Berger.

MR VISSER: We do have two, we will certainly give you one and then of course Mr Berger and then in order to save time, Mr Meyer, I would just like to say that at some point in time, the 15th of April, you had a heart attack ...

MR MEYER: No, it was not a heart attack, it was a blockage in the arteries.

MR VISSER: And you were resuscitated afterwards.

MR MEYER: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And this has left you with a limited memory.

MR MEYER: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Do you now request the Amnesty Committee to consider this when they listen to your evidence?

MR MEYER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Meyer, in 1985, were you attached to the Intelligence Unit of the Security Branch of Soweto?

MR MEYER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What was your rank then?

MR MEYER: I was a Warrant Officer then.

MR VISSER: You have completed an application which you handed up to the TRC, which can be found on page 168 and following, of volume 1, is that correct?

MR MEYER: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: The information contained in there, is that true and correct according to the best of your knowledge?

MR MEYER: Yes, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you have previously studied the background document to amnesty applications and confirmed it, do you once again do so?

MR MEYER: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Meyer, you deal with this particular incident from page 175 and you have just said that you were attached to the Intelligence Unit, were the previous two witnesses your seniors?

MR MEYER: Yes, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And did you do whatever you did under the instruction of one or both of them?

MR MEYER: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you do what your task was? What did your duties entail?

MR MEYER: Just before that I arrived at Soweto, in February/March of 1985, where I was under the command of the then Lieut Coetzee.

MR VISSER: And what were your duties?

MR MEYER: To obtain intelligence ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR VISSER: No I don't want to lead him too much, Chairperson, but if you could help ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer, you know what the application is about?

MR MEYER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your part, as you realised it, in this incident?

MR MEYER: My part Chairperson in this incident was that there was certain information with regard to facilities which I had to collect, I attended meetings and I was present that day at Nietverdiendt at the operational room.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do there?

MR MEYER: We were there only in an auxiliary capacity with regard to questions that may be asked.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know what was going on?

MR MEYER: Yes, I knew.

MR VISSER: Perhaps if I can just add.

Did you know that at any stage information that you promoted through your senior officers to Special Forces, would be used for an attack in Botswana?

MR MEYER: I knew, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And did you reconcile yourself with that?

MR MEYER: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you today recall any name that you specifically collected information about, that was promoted to Special Forces and that was one of the people that was killed or injured in this action?

MR MEYER: I know about Anderson.

MR VISSER: What did you know about him?

MR MEYER: I knew she was involved with the ANC in Botswana.

MR VISSER: Did some of your sources monitor her?

MR MEYER: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And did you put that information in reports?

MR MEYER: That's correct.

MR VISSER: What were those activities?

MR MEYER: If I recall correctly she was involved in training, instant training, and she was also involved in the underground structures.

MR VISSER: Did you know what the address was where she lived?

MR MEYER: I cannot recall.

MR VISSER: If there is evidence now that she lived with MK Abrahams and with Mike Hamlyn, which was previously the house of Marius and Jeannette Schoon, can you deny that?

MR MEYER: No, I know about Abrahams but I do not recall the other name, Mike Hamlyn.

MR VISSER: Is there any other persons that you can recall that you promoted, whose names you promoted?

MR MEYER: Not at this stage, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Were you present at the meeting at Speskop where Gen Kat Liebenberg was present?

MR MEYER: I cannot recall correctly, Chairperson, but I was at a meeting at Speskop, I do not know whether this was the same meeting.

MR VISSER: Was there more than one meeting?

MR MEYER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But you cannot say you attended the meeting when this attack was discussed?

MR MEYER: No, I know at some stage I can recall that certain questions were asked with regard to the facilities themselves. It could be.

CHAIRPERSON: But you cannot say?

MR MEYER: No, I cannot say.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR COETSER: I have no questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER

MR CORNELIUS: I have no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you, Chair-person.

Mr Meyer, the medical certificate that I have here says that as a result of the fact that your heart stopped ...(inaudible) memory.

MR MEYER: That's what the letter says, yes Sir.

MR BERGER: Yes, that's what the letter says, but is that what happened?

MR MEYER: I am not entirely certain what happened, but that is how I have the story, that is what happened.

MR BERGER: You mean you can't recall if you lost your memory or not?

MR MEYER: No, I can't. There was a time that I didn't know of anything.

MR BERGER: But this incident happened last year, in April of last year, and when you submitted your amnesty application you didn't suffer from any loss of memory.

MR MEYER: No, not that I am aware of Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Ah, well this is impossible. Okay, let me do it this way. When you submitted your amnesty application you didn't mention the names of any people who were killed during the attack.

MR MEYER: Correct.

MR BERGER: You can see that at page 187 and 188. So can we take it that at the time you submitted your amnesty application you had no knowledge of the names of any people who were killed during the attack?

MR MEYER: It must have been, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: And so, does it follow that you never gave forward any information which was ultimately used by the SADF, of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think in all fairness, Mr Berger, he never submitted to these decision makers any information which was used in determining who should be killed and who should not be killed. If we can put it that way.

MR BERGER: Well I'm trying to be fair, that's why I'm not asking ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR VISSER: Yes, except for the house in which Muff Anderson lived, Chairperson, that's the one that he says that he did promote to them.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone) Mr Visser, I'm not say that he didn't give any information, he supplied information that was in a dossier of some sort, in the normal route of his employment, but he never attended any meeting that he can remember, where he submitted any information which was relied upon.

MR VISSER: That's absolutely correct.

MR MEYER: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Mr Meyer, is that so?

MR MEYER: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: So for example, the name Tami Mnyele, that doesn't ring any bells for you?

MR MEYER: Not at all, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The way things are now I don't think anything is going to ring a bell ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: Well that's not absolutely so because you do remember Muff Anderson.

MR MEYER: Yes, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: And you do remember that Muff Anderson is a woman.

MR MEYER: Correct.

MR BERGER: And you do remember gathering information on Muff Anderson and the house where she was living.

MR MEYER: Correct, Chairperson. There were various houses about which we gathered information.

MR BERGER: And would I be correct to say that you never went yourself to Botswana, you relied on informants to give you this information?

MR MEYER: Correct, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: And your informants, were they amongst the three who we've spoken about who died, or were there others?

MR MEYER: I am not entirely certain, I cannot recall properly how many informers I had at that stage, but in approximately February I arrived in Soweto, so the possibility of one informer that we used there, but I'm not entirely certain of what information he gave.

MR BERGER: For how long were you gathering intelligence on Muff Anderson and the house where she was living?

MR MEYER: If I can work it out roughly, it was approximately six or seven months, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR MEYER: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And it could at the most be four months?

MR MEYER: Yes that's correct, I beg your pardon, yes probably three months.

MR BERGER: So from February when you arrived in Soweto, from February until June, you were gathering information on Muff Anderson.

MR MEYER: I will state it differently, I was involved with information that was collected, but not necessarily that I collected it myself.

MR BERGER: No, I accept that. As well as Urial Abrahams?

MR MEYER: That is also correct, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: And you knew that they lived in the same house.

MR MEYER: I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any knowledge or do you know of any reason why you were not informed about a person who lived with those two persons?

MR MEYER: No, Chairperson, I have no reason except ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You would have expected your informer to say that there was another man living there?

MR MEYER: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And he does this, that and the other.

MR MEYER: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But you do not recall that?

MR MEYER: No, I cannot recall the name Chairperson, but the informers or agents gave us that information we would have known about it.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Berger says that there will be witnesses that say that.

MR BERGER: That's why we want to know who the informers are, so we can ask them. But be that as it may. The name Mike Hamlyn doesn't ring any bells and the fact that there was someone else living in the house where Muff Anderson lived and Urial Abrahams lived, that also doesn't ring any bells?

MR MEYER: Not at all, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: And as far as all the other people that we've spoken about in this hearing, people who died in the attack, none of those names ring any bells for you?

MR MEYER: Not at all, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Just one final question, Mr Meyer. You say you were in the operational room at Nietverdiendt.

MR MEYER: Chairperson, maybe I stated it incorrectly, I was there but not necessarily in the operational room.

MR BERGER: Yes, but as I understand the evidence, all the policemen were kicked out of the rooms.

MR MEYER: That's right.

MR BERGER: You said you were there to help with information.

MR MEYER: That was impression as well, Chairperson, during the incident.

MR BERGER: No, during. But you didn't give any information?

MR MEYER: No not at all, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: In fact you did nothing but just stand and watch?

MR MEYER: Stand around.

MR BERGER: Or sit and watch.

MR MEYER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So to that extent you did not even contribute to the operation there, because you were not even allowed?

MR MEYER: No, I was not allowed.

MR BERGER: And that applies to all the policemen who were present, or not?

MR MEYER: Yes, according to my knowledge all the police officers were not allowed to go in, Chairperson, because we could not do anything.

MR MALAN: May I just ask a follow-up here because I couldn't understand the reason why a person at the level of applicant Steyn would not have been allowed there.

Could this have something to do with the involvement of the police with regard to the cross-border attack? Maybe I should have asked Steyn, maybe you're the wrong person to ask this. Do you know why you were outside?

MR MEYER: No, I do not know.

MR VISSER: Well I must just say, Chairperson, that Steyn testified that he and Loots were allowed and in fact, Pretorius confirmed that.

MR MALAN: Yes I recall that now, sorry. Thank you.

MR BERGER: But they were not part of the operation? Perhaps one could ask Gen van der Merwe those kind of questions, he might be able to help.

JUDGE MOTATA: ...(inaudible) police never even partook in the party.

MR BERGER: No, the party was before - according to Stiff, the party was before the operation.

JUDGE MOTATA: ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: He wasn't there.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

MR VISSER: No re-examination, thank you Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, you are excused.

MR MEYER: Thank you very much, Chairperson.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR CORNELIUS: I beg leave to call Mr McPherson.