CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We want to start the proceedings. It is for the record Wednesday, 4th October 2000 and we are proceeding with the sitting of the Amnesty Committee at the JISS Centre in Johannesburg. The Panel is constituted as will be apparent from the record. The matter before us this morning is the amnesty application of Paul Ramashetla Rammusi, amnesty reference AM5488/97. Mr Knopp, do you want to put yourself on record?
MR KNOPP: Thank you Mr Chairperson. My name is Knopp, K-N-O-P-P, initials H.A. Advocate, I appear for the applicant in this matter today.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Knopp. And the Leader of Evidence?
MS MTANGA: I'm Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you ma'am. Mr Knopp, do you want your client to be sworn in?
MR KNOPP: Thank you.
PAUL RAMASHETLE RAMMUSI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR KNOPP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Mr Rammusi, you are the applicant today before this tribunal?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: What is your age?
MR RAMMUSI: I am 38 years old now.
MR KNOPP: Did you depose to an affidavit in this matter? I'm showing it to you now, does it contain your signatures?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: Mr Chairperson, the affidavit appears in the bundle as pages 10, 11 and 12 in the hand-written form and pages 8 and 9 in the typed version thereof.
Mr Rammusi, you're a member of the African National Congress?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: And were you also a member of the movement known as Umkhonto weSizwe?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: Is it so that you received military training as a member of Umkhonto weSizwe?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: Where did you receive this training?
MR RAMMUSI: In Angola in 1983.
MR KNOPP: When you finished your training did you return to the Republic of South Africa?
MR RAMMUSI: It was quite some time before coming back home because in 1985 I did further training until in 1986.
MR KNOPP: When did you return to South Africa?
MR RAMMUSI: I arrived in South Africa in 1987 in May.
MR KNOPP: And what area were you living?
MR RAMMUSI: When I arrived I went to Rustenberg because I was doing political work and I left Rustenberg for Soweto. From Soweto I went to Springs, that is kwaThema.
MR KNOPP: And during approximately August and September 1987 were you in Springs?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: Is KwaThema one of the suburbs or townships of Springs?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: Did you hold a specific position in KwaThema at the time?
MR RAMMUSI: Yes, I was the second-in-command at that time.
MR KNOPP: In command of what?
MR RAMMUSI: Political as well as military units.
MR KNOPP: And who was the commander?
MR RAMMUSI: It was Simon Nkuna at that time.
MR KNOPP: Now there are two men sitting here in this hall. They're dressed in prison clothes. Do you know them?
MR RAMMUSI: I see them, yes.
MR KNOPP: Who are they?
MR RAMMUSI: It's The Whizz Rantlha and Moesa Nkauta.
CHAIRPERSON: Repeat those names please? Interpreter just spell it for me?
INTERPRETER: The Whizz Rantlha and Moesa Nkauta. Rantlha - R-A-N-T-L-H-A. Nkauta - N-K-A-U-T-A.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.
ADV BOSMAN: May I just enquire? Your commander, could you just spell out his name? Was it Nkuma or Nkuna?
MR RAMMUSI: Nkuna.
MR KNOPP: Mr Ramussi, these two men are they presently serving out sentences at Modderbee Prison in the Springs area?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: That in 1987, were you together with them?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: Were they co-members or comrades of yours?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: And on the date of the instant in approximately September 1987 were they together with you?
MR RAMMUSI: Yes they were together with me.
MR KNOPP: Were you travelling in a certain motor vehicle at the time?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: Who was the driver?
MR RAMMUSI: The driver was Moesa at that time.
MR KNOPP: Where were you sitting?
MR RAMMUSI: I was at the back seat.
MR KNOPP: And where was Daniel Rantlha sitting?
MR RAMMUSI: I don't quite recall, we were four in a car and we were in the company of some girls at that time and we had gone for a reconnaissance mission.
MR KNOPP: Do you remember the type of motor vehicle?
MR RAMMUSI: It was a Ford.
MR KNOPP: Was this motor vehicle a lawful motor vehicle or had it been stolen?
MR RAMMUSI: It was a stolen car so to - I wouldn't say it was a stolen car but we actually took cars for the mission of the organisation.
MR KNOPP: Yes, but the point is this, if the Police would come across such a vehicle would the Police become suspicious from the vehicle?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct, the Police would suspect such a car. They suspected the car because it was in high speed.
MR KNOPP: And what arms and ammunition did you have?
MR RAMMUSI: A rifle, AK47 and grenades and a pistol.
MR KNOPP: Which weapon did you personally use at the time?
MR RAMMUSI: I had an AK47.
MR KNOPP: Were you travelling in an area known as Senta?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: And what happened then?
MR RAMMUSI: The Police tried to stop us on the road. We did not stop because my driver was a very good driver so we managed to speed off and we managed to reach White City and we got out of the car and fired at them.
MR KNOPP: Before your motor vehicle came to a standstill did the Police shoot at your vehicle?
MR RAMMUSI: They shot the back window of the vehicle.
MR KNOPP: Was that during the chase?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: At what stage did anyone return fire from your vehicle?
MR RAMMUSI: May you repeat your question please?
MR KNOPP: At what stage did anybody return fire from your vehicle?
MR RAMMUSI: We were already at White City. We got out of the car and we went into the township and that's when we managed to shoot back at them.
MR KNOPP: Can you say how many policemen there were at the time?
MR RAMMUSI: I am not sure really because after this incident those who got injured were transported in their car and they left.
MR KNOPP: During this instant did you fire at the Police with an AK47?
MR RAMMUSI: Yes I did.
MR KNOPP: And one or more members of the South African Police injured in the shoot out?
MR RAMMUSI: I know that one got injured but in the newspaper it was reported that it was more than one person who got injured. I wasn't sure, I was really not sure of the number but I knew that it was only one person that got injured.
MR KNOPP: After the shoot-out did you and the other occupants get into the Ford motor vehicle again?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: And did you drive away from the scene?
MR RAMMUSI: Yes, we left the scene.
MR KNOPP: At a certain place did you part from the other occupants of the vehicle?
MR RAMMUSI: Yes, there was such a time we parted ways.
MR KNOPP: Were you left with any arms or ammunition?
MR RAMMUSI: No, The Whizz left them all and he left from Sikani.
MR KNOPP: Was there not another instant that night where you proceeded to the house of the policeman in White City, KwaThema?
MR RAMMUSI: There is such an incident, yes.
MR KNOPP: At the time of that instant were you armed with anything?
MR RAMMUSI: I was armed with a handgrenade at that time.
MR KNOPP: And do you know the identity of that policeman, the ...(indistinct) of the house?
MR RAMMUSI: I knew the policeman by sight because he resided in the township.
MR KNOPP: Not his name?
MR RAMMUSI: I don't know his name.
MR KNOPP: Do you have the address perhaps?
MR RAMMUSI: I only know that it's Mikakumbani Street. When I arrived at this policeman's house I threw the handgrenade through the window. The front door was open and there were elderly people in the house so I had to avoid them and throw the grenade into an empty room and for political propaganda.
MR KNOPP: Can you say whether the handgrenade exploded?
MR RAMMUSI: Yes, it exploded in the room.
MR KNOPP: Can you say whether anyone was injured during that instant?
MR RAMMUSI: I would not recall what happened. I only heard a rumour that a person died during the crossfire.
MR KNOPP: Yes Mr Rammusi, my question is actually, from the explosion of the handgrenade was anyone injured?
MR RAMMUSI: Nobody because there was nobody in that room.
ADV BOSMAN: I'm completely confused now, I may have missed something. Where did the person die in the crossfire? You said a person died during the crossfire, you heard about it?
MR RAMMUSI: The person was in Matsoegi Street. It was during a shoot-out between ourselves and the Police.
MR KNOPP: Is the position that you're not sure whether that deceased was struck by a bullet shot by either yourself or your comrades or the South African Police?
MR RAMMUSI: We are not sure, Sir.
MR KNOPP: And you don't know the identity of that deceased?
MR RAMMUSI: I do not know the identity of the deceased.
MR KNOPP: After these two incidents did you go into hiding?
MR RAMMUSI: After these incidents I took out an order that the chaps should go underground. I left for Soweto and I went on with my political activities.
MR KNOPP: After a few weeks did you proceed to Botswana?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: Did the South African Police later arrest your comrades Rantlha and Nkauta?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: And were the firearms and ammunition confiscated by the South African Police at the time of the arrest of your comrades?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: How long did you spend in Botswana for?
MR RAMMUSI: A few months, Sir, and afterwards I left for Zambia.
MR KNOPP: When did you return again for South Africa?
MR RAMMUSI: In 1993 when we all came back home.
MR KNOPP: Is that you and the other political exiles?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: You have never been charged or prosecuted for these offences?
MR RAMMUSI: No.
MR KNOPP: And are you contending that you committed these acts with a political motive?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MR KNOPP: And what was that political motive?
MR RAMMUSI: The political objective was to remove the previous regime that oppressed the people and we all know that we were fighting a military junta and we really wanted to remove the regime that was not serving the people of the country, they were only serving the interests of the whites and that is why I came to South Africa so that I could also be part of the people who were fighting the old regime, to remove it from power and get a new government instead.
MR KNOPP: Now one of the members of the South African Police that was injured during that skirmish about which you testified is sitting here today. It's Superintendent Ludick. Do you see him?
MR RAMMUSI: I see the man sitting there.
MR KNOPP: Do you have anything to say to him?
MR RAMMUSI: There is something I'd like to say to him and this is that it was not our wish to injure or to kill. We were just performing our freedom duties and I did all this in South Africa because I was on command. I was part of the family of the ANC and if we wanted something we had to get it. He got injured and I wouldn't like to see him with one arm really. He got injured because we were in a war situation. I am saying to you Sir I did not do this deliberately. There was no choice. There was no other way. The only way was to be engaged in war and get our land back, all of us. Today all of us we are happy and we enjoy our liberation.
MR KNOPP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOPP
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, I do have a few.
Mr Rammusi, when did you join the ANC?
MR RAMMUSI: I joined the ANC in 1982.
MS MTANGA: Where did you join it?
MR RAMMUSI: In Botswana.
MS MTANGA: And when did you become a member of the MK?
MR RAMMUSI: I became a member of the MK in 1983.
MS MTANGA: Where did you join the MK?
MR RAMMUSI: In Zambia, that's where our offices were situated.
MS MTANGA: The two persons, that is Mr Nkauta and Rantlha who were involved with you in this incident, were they also members of the ANC?
MR RAMMUSI: They were members of the ANC internally not outside. In other words I trained them inside the country.
MS MTANGA: Were they members of your unit?
MR RAMMUSI: They were members of my unit at that time, yes. At the time of their training in 1987.
MS MTANGA: At the time you came across the Police vehicle and you had weapons in your car, what were you going to use those weapons for?
MR RAMMUSI: We had not yet had a mission, we were still busy with reconnaissance. I was still busy with the planning of operations. When they intercepted us we were from a reconnaissance mission.
MS MTANGA: Where did they obtain these weapons from?
MR RAMMUSI: I brought them with from Botswana.
MS MTANGA: And then when the Police tried to stop you why didn't you stop?
MR RAMMUSI: The first thing is because we had weapons. The second point I had documents containing certain information. The third point, the car that we were using was taken from a white person for public use and it was a criminal offence during those days to be found in possession of weapons and information very sensitive.
MS MTANGA: When you were asked about whether this car was stolen or not you said this car was actually taken. Was this a stolen vehicle that you were driving?
MR RAMMUSI: I wouldn't like to talk too much and say that the car that we were in was stolen. Our war, the war I was involved in was an urban warfare and I needed to have transportation means. We did not negotiate with the owner maybe but the armed struggle language would not be stolen, no. The vehicle was expropriated.
MS MTANGA: Would you say you took it by force from the owner?
MR RAMMUSI: No, to expropriate means you can take somebody's vehicle and not pay the person anything and maybe not return the car because you use it for public purposes.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rammusi, just give us the details about that expropriation, where did it occur? When?
MR RAMMUSI: I actually delegated. If I had an operation, I had members of the units who are given different responsibilities.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now where did it occur and when? Can you give us all the details not all the facts. Can you just tell us, just brief, I just want information. Where was this vehicle expropriated and when?
MR RAMMUSI: In Springs, that is I don't know the place exactly where in Springs the car was expropriated but it was in the same year.
CHAIRPERSON: In 1987? Which year was it?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct, 1987.
CHAIRPERSON: How long roughly before this incident with the Police?
MR RAMMUSI: I think a day before.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I would just like to confirm that according to Inspector Samuel Ludick who was a policeman driving the Police vehicle on the day, he suspected that vehicle to be a stolen vehicle by looking at the registration number of it hence the reason that the three were chased by the Police.
You mention that you also later on in that day involved in throwing a handgrenade at a policeman's house?
MR RAMMUSI: That is correct.
MS MTANGA: When did you decide to do this? When did you plan that operation?
MR RAMMUSI: Because the interception had already taken place I was very happy to be involved in that hit because the ANC gathered some facts because of that propaganda and it gained support as well.
MS MTANGA: My question was, when did you plan the operation to attack the policeman's house with a handgrenade? When was that planned?
MR RAMMUSI: At the time.
MS MTANGA: Where you aware if this policeman was amongst the policemen who were chasing you at that time or who came to the scene of the shoot-out?
MR RAMMUSI: The policeman was not among the others.
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Has the Panel got any questions?
ADV SANDI: Can you give us the name of the person who was involved in the what you called expropriation of the car? Who was physically involved in that?
MR RAMMUSI: I sent Moesa to do the expropriation.
ADV SANDI: When you were being chased after by the Police, how many exactly were you in the car? You mentioned some girls who were in your company?
MR RAMMUSI: If I recall well we were four in the vehicle.
ADV SANDI: Namely?
MR RAMMUSI: Moesa, The Whizz. I do not know the names of these girls, we were using them for less suspicion methods or actions on the way.
ADV SANDI: How many girls?
MR RAMMUSI: There were two.
ADV SANDI: Who is The Whizz? Sorry, I don't follow?
MR RAMMUSI: The Whizz Rantlha.
ADV SANDI: Is that Rantlha?
MR RAMMUSI: Yes, that's Rantlha.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson.
ADV BOSMAN: May I just enquire, who gave you orders to come into South Africa and become politically active here? Who was your commander then?
MR RAMMUSI: At that time I was working with Commander Chris Hani.
ADV BOSMAN: And were you then told to join up with Mr Nkuna or that just sort of happened as you went along with your activities?
MR RAMMUSI: I was not told that. I was sent into the country to create the underground units in South Africa.
ADV BOSMAN: And then after this incident did you report this back to Mr Nkuna? These two incidents?
MR RAMMUSI: Simon Nkuna was working from Pretoria at that time. When we arrived in South Africa we came up with a method of scattering in South Africa so that we are not all gathered at one place and be easily arrested. If the whole unit is arrested then we're all dead so we were all scattered.
ADV BOSMAN: My question was did you report to Mr Nkuna about these two incidents? He was working from Pretoria, I understand, but my question is did you report to him what had taken place. The shoot-out with the Police and the throwing of the handgrenade?
MR RAMMUSI: Yes, he knows that.
ADV BOSMAN: And he approved of it?
MR RAMMUSI: Yes.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Knopp?
MR KNOPP: No re-examination, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Rammusi, you are excused. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Any other evidence?
MR KNOPP: That is the evidence for the applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?
WITNESS EXCUSED
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no evidence to lead but I would like the Committee to allow me to place on record the details of the victims.
CHAIRPERSON: Please go ahead ma'am.
MS MTANGA ADDRESSES: We have present today at the hearing Inspector Samuel Ludick the junior who was shot in the neck during the shoot-out with the applicant and his co-perpetrators. His address is Organised Crime Unit, Nongqai, Post Office Avenue, Springs. Telephone number 011-8153141.
The second person who was with him in the vehicle was his father who was then not a policeman. His name is also Samuel Ludick so I'll refer to him as Mr Samuel Ludick senior. He was shot in the leg during the shoot-out. His contact details will be the same as Mr Ludick junior.
And then the policeman whose house was thrown with a handgrenade, his name is Abel Sealogo. I didn't get his ranking in the Police at that time. He is Abel Sealogo, spelt S-E-A-L-O-G-O, but no one was injured at the house but his house was damaged as a result. He has passed away, he passed away about four weeks ago. His son, Det. Sgt. Andrew Sealogo indicated to Mr Ludick that he would have loved to attend but due to the death in the family he was unable to attend. He is also with the same unit as Inspector Ludick. His contact number is 0829339185.
The fourth person who was a bystander and who was shot dead during the shoot-out, his or her details are unknown but Inspector Ludick promised to assist us to get the details of this person. An advert was also placed on the newspaper for them to approach us but no one has come forward on this incident.
And then lastly, Chairperson, I'd like to place on record that I consulted with the two implicated people. Their full names are Moesa Nkaota. Nkaota is spelt N-K-A-O-T-A. And the second named person who is referred to as The Whizz is Daniel Rantlha, that's his real name, Daniel Rantlha. They both are convicted of this incident but they got indemnity in 1991 and they indicated that the applicant didn't get indemnity because he was out of the country at that time when they applied for indemnity. That is all I wanted to place before the Committee, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. We have noted all of that information. Mr Knopp have you got any submissions?
MR KNOPP IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I would respectfully submit that the application of the applicant complies with the technical requirement of Act 34/1995. Secondly, I would submit that the acts about which the tribunal has heard were motivated and associated with a definite political objective and thirdly and lastly I would respectfully submit that the applicant has made full disclosure of all the relevant facts to the best of his ability and I would ask that the tribunal grant amnesty to the applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Knopp. Ms Mtanga, any submissions?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no submissions to make and I'm not opposing this application.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, that concludes the matter. The Panel will consider the application and will endeavour to prepare a decision in this matter as soon as the circumstances permit so the decision will be reserved.
Mr Knopp, we thank you for your assistance. You had another matter before us this morning but there have been some logistical and other problems so I think that takes care of your interests today at least, but you're excused.
MR KNOPP: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Only with pleasure. Thank you very much. And Inspector Ludick, thank you for your presence and thank you for the assistance that you promised in regard to locating or trying to ascertain the information concerning the bystander that was injured in the particular incident. Thank you for attending and the best of luck.
Yes Ms Mtanga, do you want us to stand down or what?
MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, I'd like us to stand down to organise ourselves.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well you order us to stand down so we'll do that until you order us to come back.
MS MTANGA: I will do so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll stand down briefly.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
