Amnesty Hearings

SMANEKWA MHLONGO: (Sworn States)

EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Mhlongo, are you a supporter of the IFP?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Where did you live at the stage before you were arrested?

MR MHLONGO: At Mzimhlope Hostel.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Is that the same as Meadowlands Hostel?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: For how long have you been living there before you were arrested?

MR MHLONGO: I'd been staying there since 1990.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Who was the Induna at the hostel?

MR MHLONGO: Mr Msomi.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now were there any other Indunas at the hostel as well?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, Indunas for the boys. An Induna for the boys, that was Mr Shwala and Mr Konondo.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it Twala or Shwala?

MR MHLONGO: Shwala.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you attend the meetings that were held at Meadowlands hostel?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you actively take part in these meetings?

MR MHLONGO: We would just listen as audiences and we would be told what to do to prevent ANC from planting bombs in the hostel.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you take part in any rallies that the IFP held in Gauteng?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did everybody in Meadowlands hostel, did they see you as an active IFP supporter?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: How well did you know Induna Msomi?

MR MHLONGO: Very well. He is the one person who received me when I came to Johannesburg.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: What does it mean to have an Induna that receives you? Is he like a father to you in that hostel?

MR MHLONGO: Very much so, yes.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Do you have to go and ask him permission if you want to go to KwaZulu Natal for two weeks, for example?

MR MHLONGO: I would explain to him, for example we were the ones who were guarding the hostel, I would request that he allows me to go home.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Yes and if he gives you instructions, must you follow them?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now during 1994 and before the first elections, democratic elections that were held, there was a lot of violence in the Soweto area between the ANC and the IFP, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: And did you then hold meetings to try to see what you could do to this violence, to help to protect you all as a hostel?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Was your hostel attacked during these days by the ANC?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you have sufficient weapons to protect you at that stage against the ANC?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we did have firearms, but they, we had a shortage later as a result of people getting arrested and these firearms confiscated.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now did you receive instructions to go and rob the Denver liquor store?

MR MHLONGO: He called us, the four of us and he said we now have a shortage of ammunition and firearms and he told us that he had gathered information to the effect that there was money at the bottle store and he said we should go and get the money so that we can buy AK47's because we were now headed for the elections, we were now in shortage of these assault rifles.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: This person who gave you the instructions that you're talking about, who is this?

MR MHLONGO: Mr Msomi.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now did you plan this robbery beforehand?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you know beforehand where the Denver liquor store was?

MR MHLONGO: I did not, he gave us directions.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Before the day of the robbery, did you go and look at the Denver liquor store to see where it is and what is going on there?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we did.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you look at how many people are working in this store and at what time they open and close?

MR MHLONGO: We did not make out the number of people, because we had already been informed about the number of people working at the bottle store. We went there on a Sunday. We just wanted to look at the place.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now, do you know that Meadowlands Hostel is quite ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you how many people were working there?

MR MHLONGO: Mr Msomi told us that we would find three people at the bottle store and he said two of them would open in the morning and the third one would open the grilles and he said we should get in as the third one is opening the grilles.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you know where Induna Msomi got this information from?

MR MHLONGO: I have no idea. I did not ask him.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now Meadowlands Hostel is quite a distance away from Denver and specifically the Denver Liquor Store, how did you get there? Did you travel by taxi or by car? I'm talking now about the day when you went to look at the liquor store, not the day that you robbed the liquor store.

CHAIRPERSON: You're talking about the Sunday, when they went to ...

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Yes.

MR MHLONGO: He gave us some taxi fares.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Okay. And on the day of the robbery, did you also take a taxi to the Denver Liquor Store?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we travelled by taxi.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you discuss beforehand what you were going to do after the attempted robbery? In other words, where are you going to meet?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we decided, we met and we decided we were going to meet in the morning.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: No, but before the robbery took place, did you decide that after the robbery you would go back to Meadowlands Hostel, or where did you decide you would go to, after the robbery now?

MR MHLONGO: We agreed that we were going to go back to Msomi and hand the money over to him at the hostel.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now on the morning of the robbery, when you arrived at the Denver Liquor Store, was the place already open?

MR MHLONGO: No, not yet.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: What did you do then?

MR MHLONGO: We waited around the corner in the next street and we came back after 15 minutes and they were opening and when these two opened, we followed them in and the third one remained behind and when he or should I say after opening the grilles, we then produced our firearms.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Right. Just tell me about the firearm. Where did you get your firearm from?

MR MHLONGO: I had received it from Mr Msomi.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now what happened when you produced your firearms, did you ask them to lie down or what did you ask them to do?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I told them to lie down. I frisked them.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Mhlongo, did you then ask them for money, or who asked them for the money?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we wanted money.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now did they then take you to the place where the money was kept?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, they took us to the safe, they opened the safe.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: And to whom did they hand over the money?

MR MHLONGO: They opened the safe and them Mr Mkwanazi took the money out.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: And then what did you do to the people who were working in the liquor store?

MR MHLONGO: We put them in a cold room, that's where they used to keep their beer cases.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now is this a large room where you could actually walk into?

MR MHLONGO: Very much so, yes, it's a very huge place. It was not on, so it was not cold.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: And did you lock them inside there?

MR MHLONGO: We closed the door and we put some beers in front of the door because there was no key and then we left them like that.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now would they have been able to push open the door with the cases of beer in front of it?

MR MHLONGO: They would not have pushed the beer cases.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now what did you do then? You now had the money with you, what did you do then? Did you proceed then to go out of the shop?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we left the bottle store. I was the first one to leave. Mr Mkwanazi followed. I stood at the door and I looked around and there was nobody and when Mr Mkwanazi took the corner, he met the white people who were inside the bottle store. He then shouted at me and told me to inform the people inside that these people had been released and I then informed the people who were inside and told them: "Look, these people are now out" and when they came to the door, that's when they started shooting. Mkwanazi then dropped the bag full of money.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now there must have been chaos, the people were shooting at you. What did you do at that moment?

MR MHLONGO: Mkwanazi then fled after dropping the bag and Shelembe picked it up and then shot the security. I also drew my firearm and fired in the air.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you only fire in the air, or did you aim at the security guard to shoot him?

MR MHLONGO: I fired in the air.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: And then, what did you do then?

MR MHLONGO: I tried to shoot as I was running away.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: You said you tried to shoot. Were you shooting at the people, or were you still shooting in the air while you were running away?

MR MHLONGO: I was shooting in the air still, so that - wanting to frighten them off and when they were shooting, they were actually not pointing the firearm at me, instead they were pointing it at Shelembe who was in possession of the bag, that's why he got fatally wounded on the scene.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now where did you run to?

MR MHLONGO: Me?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Yes.

MR MHLONGO: I went round the corner.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: And then, did you wait for the other people that were with you, amongst others Mr Myaka? Did you wait for them to join you or did you keep on running?

MR MHLONGO: On taking the corner, I slowed down. Mr Myaka then caught up with me and then there were three of us, including Mkwanazi. We then walked. Mr Mkwanazi disappeared thereabouts, I don't know where he disappeared to.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: And where did you and Mr Myaka decide to go to then?

MR MHLONGO: We decided to go to Denver Hostel.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Why did you decide to go Denver Hostel and not back to Induna Msomi?

MR MHLONGO: It was because Denver Hostel was nearer. We would be able to hide our firearms, because we were trying to evade the police because there had been an exchange of gun fire, so we wanted to hide ourselves for a while at the hostel, because there were IFP members there as well.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you know the people at Denver Hostel, these IFP members?

MR MHLONGO: I did not know these people personally but I knew what to say when you get to the IFP people.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: What must you say when you get to these IFP people?

MR MHLONGO: I would say: "...(ethnic)"

MR VAN DER HEYDE: What does that mean?

MR MHLONGO: That means I am an IFP member.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: I presume that was some sort of password they used between themselves?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: How did it then come that you were arrested? What happened then, how did it come that you were arrested?

MR MHLONGO: Police came in front of us and another group behind us, that was before we got to the hostel. I threw my firearm away and they noticed that I was throwing it away. They stopped us and made us lie down. They looked around and found the firearm and I admitted knowledge of the firearm.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now after you were arrested or taken to court, did you apply for bail?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I did. I got bail, but I did not apply for it.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: So was there not a lawyer that helped you to get bail?

MR MHLONGO: No.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: And now when your court case started, did the same lawyer represent you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Bail was granted I suppose by the Magistrate, or by the prosecutor, or what the procedure might have been, did you remain in jail, or did you pay the bail?

MR MHLONGO: No I did not pay any money towards bail.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you kept in jail then?

MR MHLONGO: I was kept in jail, yes.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did nobody come and offer to pay your bail money?

MR MHLONGO: Mr Msomi sent some girls to come and cheer me up, telling me not to worry. They said: "Look things are bad because we did not even get the money that we were hoping to get".

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Now when you were ...(indistinct) for the trial, did the same lawyer defend you as the one who defended Mr Myaka?

MR MHLONGO: No, I was not represented by a lawyer.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Did you represent yourself?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Why did you do this?

MR MHLONGO: Mr Msomi told me not to look for any legal representative.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Didn't you find this strange, because Mr Myaka had a legal representative? MR MHLONGO: No, not at all, because Myaka's parent came from home, he's the one who made an effort. You see, in our case where we went to commit this robbery, it's because INKATHA was in need of the money, they needed the money to purchase firearms, but unfortunately we did not succeed in our mission.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Today you are applying for amnesty for this robbery of the liquor store, is that correct?

MR MHLONGO: Correct.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Thank you Mr Mhlongo.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEYDE

MR SIBANYONI: Do you know how much was involved, the money you attempted to take away? Was it stated in court how much was it?

MR MHLONGO: No, we did not find out.

MR SIBANYONI: And you also were sentenced to 12 years imprisonment?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: And at present you are still serving that sentence?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Mr Mhlongo, are you aware that for you to get amnesty you must make full disclosure of the true facts?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: When you met with Mr Msomi for the first time, where did you meet him?

MR MHLONGO: We resided at Mzimhlope, both of us.

MR MAPOMA: Were you staying in the same room?

MR MHLONGO: No, not in the same room. I had my own place.

MR MAPOMA: But you kept contact with him?

MR MHLONGO: Very much so, yes.

MR MAPOMA: What was his full name? What is his full name, this Mr Mhlongo?

MR MHLONGO: He is the same age as my father and therefore it was not easy for me to ask for his full names.

MR MAPOMA: No, you did not have to do that. You did not have to ask his full name for you to know him. You did not ask other people their full names for you to know them. What was his full name?

MR MHLONGO: I'm very much sorry. You see, in our culture of aMaZulu, you don't ask your elder what his name is, you just call him by the surname and that's it.

ADV SIGODI: You did not have to ask, you could hear other elders calling him by his name.

MR MHLONGO: My father used to call him Msomi, he never dressed him by his name.

ADV SIGODI: What about the other elders in the hostel?

MR MHLONGO: Which ones?

ADV SIGODI: Were there no other elderly people in the hostel?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, I did not address them by their names.

ADV SIGODI: Did they not call Mr Msomi by his first name?

MR MHLONGO: Not at all. They used to call him Msomi.

MR MAPOMA: Where was your father?

MR MHLONGO: He passed away.

MR MAPOMA: Was he resident at that hostel as well?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: At the time of the robbery, was your father still alive?

MR MHLONGO: He died a long time ago.

ADV SIGODI: At the time of the robbery, was he still alive?

MR MHLONGO: He had already died by then.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Mhlongo, I put it to you that you do not disclose the full names of Mr Mhlongo because you are protecting him and for that reason you are not making full disclosure and you don't qualify for amnesty.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Excuse me, you said Mhlongo, it's Msomi you mean.

MR MAPOMA: Ja, Mr Msomi, yes. What is your answer to the statement put to you that you are not giving us all the name, you are protecting Msomi?

MR MHLONGO: I cannot protect him. I cannot conceal him because we come from the same place back home. I don't quite know exactly where his house is, but if you were to ask anyone from around home, they would tell you, so I cannot really protect him, he is well-known.

MR MAPOMA: Was he employed, during the time of this robbery was Mr Msomi employed?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Where?

MR MHLONGO: At Witz.

MR SIBANYONI: Give us their ...(indistinct) names.

MR MHLONGO: I just know that they are Msomis, I don't know their ...(indistinct) names.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, at the trial, did you mention that you had been sent by your Induna to go and commit this robbery?

MR MHLONGO: It was not easy to divulge that in court, because I feared that he might be arrested as well.

ADV SIGODI: So why did you seek to sacrifice yourself when somebody who had sent you was not arrested?

MR MHLONGO: He had informed me that he was going to stand by me and he was going to be responsible for whatever problems that I would encounter.

ADV SIGODI: Ja, but at the time of the trial, you could see that he had not paid your bail, he had not made any provision for you to have a legal representative, in fact he did not stand by you, so why did you not say to the Judge or the Presiding Officer that: "We were acting under instructions" and that this was a political order? Why did you not say that?

MR MHLONGO: Would you please repeat the question?

ADV SIGODI: Okay, the question is, you saw that Mr Msomi, despite all his promises, he did not pay your bail, he did not provide you with a legal representative, in fact he was not there for you as you had hoped, why then during the trial did you not mention to the presiding officer that he is the one who had given you instructions to commit this robbery?

MR MHLONGO: It's because he was doing some of the things.

ADV SIGODI: What things was he doing?

MR MHLONGO: He promised me that he would take care of my children financially whilst I'm imprisoned, he would clothe them and take them to school.

ADV SIGODI: Did you believe him?

MR MHLONGO: He's doing that to date, because my wife writes to me now and then and she's apparently getting R600 per month from him.

ADV SIGODI: Where is your wife?

MR MHLONGO: At Nkandla.

ADV SIGODI: So is Mr Msomi paying this R600 out of his own pocket?

MR MHLONGO: I would not know. I assume it comes from the organisation because I don't think he can afford to take care of my family from his pocket. I cannot say exactly because I'm in prison.

ADV SIGODI: Tell me, is it the policy of the IFP to take care of the families of prisoners, or is it just you who has got a family that's being taken care of?

MR MHLONGO: I wrote a letter to him asking why is he abandoning me because he's not doing anything for me and he promised that he was going to take care of everything pertaining to my family and he said I should not be worried about the fact that he did not pay for my bail, because I knew that there was no money and he promised that he would take care of my family and make sure that they do not suffer.

ADV SIGODI: I do not understand. Here is a person who says there is no money to pay for your bail, in fact when did you write to him?

MR MHLONGO: After being sentenced.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, that is precisely the question. You write to him after your conviction. My question was, why did you not mention his name to the presiding officer during the course of the trial because at that time you could see that he was not doing anything for you?

MR MHLONGO: He used to send people at the trial and he would give them money so that I could buy cigarettes and some few other things. He said that there was no money for bail.

ADV SIGODI: And there was also no money for a legal representative.

MR MHLONGO: According to his explanation, yes, I also know because see, we would not have committed this robbery if there was enough money. I knew that the money had to be used to purchase firearms.

ADV SIGODI: Where does the money to maintain your family come from?

MR MHLONGO: I have no idea because I'm in prison. You see, I told him that I'm in prison now and my family is suffering so they had to do something.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Is Mr Msomi also from Nkandla?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: From your locality, same area so to speak?

MR MHLONGO: Not from the same area, but we are under one chief.

MR MAPOMA: Yet you don't know his name?

MR MHLONGO: We have different areas. He is not my peer, he grew up with my father, so I cannot know his name.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Mapoma, I understood it that the identity of Mr Msomi is known. He's been given notice. We've been told by Mr van der Heyden that he contacted Mr Msomi, so I don't think that it's a case that we don't know who Mr Msomi is, I think we could even get hold of him if we want to.

MR MAPOMA: I appreciate that Chairperson. If Mr van der Heyden will take it upon himself to give us full identity of Mr Msomi, then I'll leave the matter. We don't have that guarantee now from him. There's no evidence to that effect, except for what he said.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Chairperson, I just want to refer you to a letter that I received from ...(indistinct - coughing), Yeshina Pillay from the TRC dated the 17th of October, this month. She then told me that Ms van der Westhuizen would not proceed with the amnesty application and that she attached a letter which she wrote to Mrs Alina van der Westhuizen and said that I must comply with this letter as well. Now this letter said the following

"Please provide us with the following so that we might finalise the applications of Mr Msomi and Myaka.

1. Confirmation of the IFP membership of the applicants and Induna Msomi.

2. Confirmation by the IFP that they authorised and approved of the incident for which the applicants seek amnesty.

3. Full supplementary affidavits in respect of both applicants and then

4. ..."

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the letter appearing on page 19 of the papers?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Sorry I did not have that page?

CHAIRPERSON: Nineteen.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: That is correct. You would see that number four it says

"A statement from Induna Msomi, indicating the date..."

Now it is well-known within IFP circles who Induna Msomi is. He is the main Induna at Meadowlands hostel. Everybody at the IFP offices know who Induna Msomi is. I think you can almost ask more than 75% of the INKATHA people that live in Gauteng area who Induna Msomi is and they will immediately tell you who he is. He's very well-known and it's very easy to get hold of him. You can just get in your car and drive to Meadowlands Hostel and I also, I do not have it with me now, but I also have a telephone number where he can be contacted.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you provide the telephone number to Mr Mapoma please and if you've got a real address or any further particulars about him, could you send it through to Mr Mapoma?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: It will be my pleasure.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Thank you Chairperson for that. Now when you planned this robbery, who was present?

MR MHLONGO: The four of us, that is the people who were to commit the robbery, but in their group there were three of them, Ngema, Shwala and Msomi, so basically there were seven of us.

MR MAPOMA: Where was Mandla Gapele Makwaza?

MR MHLONGO: No, I don't know.

MR MAPOMA: Do you know Mandla Gapele Makwaza?

MR MHLONGO: No, I don't know him.

MR MAPOMA: Do you know Simelani?

MR MHLONGO: No, I don't know him.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever go to school?

MR MHLONGO: No, not at all.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever receive a letter from the TRC asking some particulars regarding your application?

MR MHLONGO: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Did you reply to that letter?

MR MHLONGO: Yes. Somebody was writing on my behalf.

MR MAPOMA: And that person, did he tell you what the letter requests from you?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, he would read the letter and explain to me and he would then write down and I would tell him as he was writing, I would dictate to him as he was writing. You see he used to smoke dagga, it's possible he made mistakes, but he would read each letter that I received.

MR MAPOMA: You see, in your letter that was sent to the TRC, on page 11 of this bundle which has got an English interpretation on page 10, you say the people who were there included Mandla Gapele Makaza and Simelani. That's what you said. Now you say you don't know those people altogether.

MR MHLONGO: Yes, you see I cannot deny that because somebody was doing the writing. You see, I'm not educated, the person who was doing the writing is a dagga smoker.

MR MAPOMA: Who is that? Who was doing that writing for you?

MR MHLONGO: Ncwana.

MR MAPOMA: Where is he now?

MR MHLONGO: He's in Maximum Prison.

MR MAPOMA: Now where do you think he can get these names? Can he just get those names out of his hat?

MR MHLONGO: I cannot know because I was also concerned about his smoking and the writing. He would say to me I should give him some money so he can buy some dagga first, and I would buy him maybe two or three dagga you know parcels. You see I don't smoke and he would tell me that he would write very well under the influence of dagga and I would then submit my letters. I would not even read, I would not even take this to somebody else to read it for me, I would just take the letters and forward them wherever.

MR MAPOMA: What are Mkwanazi's full names?

MR MHLONGO: I don't know him. The one person who was close to him was Themba Shelembe. He used to come to Mzimhlope. He is not my age, he's a little older than myself. He comes from the same area as the deceased.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Mhlongo just answer the question and that would be it. You are wasting much time now ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously) You see, of all of you who were present in this robbery, the gentleman next to you, you know his full names don't you?

MR MHLONGO: No.

MR MAPOMA: How do you know him as?

MR MHLONGO: I only know him as Phumayakhe Myaka.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, that's what I'm saying. You know also Themba Shelembe, as Themba Shelembe, is that not so?

MR MHLONGO: Yes, we used to stay together, that's why I know them, we were always together, most of the time, that is.

MR MAPOMA: Don't you find it strange that of all these people, the only person you don't know his name is Mkwanazi?

MR MHLONGO: He did mention his name. You see I'm very poor when it comes to memorising a person's name, especially one that I did not grow up with, so these are those I grew up together with them, that is why I know them. We have been long in the hostel together.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Mhlongo, once again I put it to you that you are not making full disclosure here. You are not telling us the particulars of Mkwanazi because you want to protect him.

MR MHLONGO: I would not protect him. You see, I'm in prison. If I knew everything about him, I would tell you. You see, there's nothing that I can benefit from there, so that there's no reason why I cannot, why I'm not telling the truth, he's not helping me in any way.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mapoma is it going to be your argument that it is unusual for an adult person to be known only by his surname amongst his peers?

MR MAPOMA: Amongst others, yes Chair, yes I would advance that argument.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you also saying, even if that person is a very old person, not of his own age, is it unusual that he would not have an opportunity to know his first name, unless you are at a working situation with him where the employer would call him by his first name.

MR MAPOMA: Chair, you are referring to him as one of his peers, correctly so indeed and I'm saying it is improbable that he can't know his names, particularly when that is judged against the background that other people, he knew their names and this crucial person is not known on his name.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Chairperson, may I just intervene with something totally different? Lady Nature is not calling at me this moment, but rather shouting at the top of her voice. If I could just have one minute.

CHAIRPERSON: I see it's past the adjournment time, so we'll ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR MAPOMA: I'm sorry Chairperson, can I just finish? I'm just...

CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't know ...(indistinct - mike not on) You could be excused.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I have no further questions, that is all.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions by any of the members? Any re-examination?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: No Mr Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER HEYDE: MR VAN DER HEYDE: I do not have any witnesses, Mr Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: I have no witnesses Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Argument?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Do you prefer me, if I want to give some sort of argument, to give it to you in written form?

CHAIRPERSON: That usually causes a delay and we wouldn't like this matter to be delayed. I think it's in the interest of everybody that we get finality as soon as possible. If for instance, suppose we would grant amnesty, they've been in jail now for how long and they're still sitting in jail and prisoners have to be treated with preference, so we would like to dispose of it. They want certainty and we would like to give them certainty as soon as possible.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Mr Chairperson, I will then be not longer than five minutes. I would just quickly like to address a few things.

MR VAN DER HEYDE IN ARGUMENT: Firstly I just one to contend with the political environment that existed in 1994. I think it's...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think we all agree that we had a war going on at that stage between the IFP and the ANC and other elements of our society too. The main question here would be whether they acted on orders because we know as far as the IFP officially announced, they never ordered people to commit any crime or kill people or whatever it is, so it's not their official policy that this could be done. This is an armed robbery that's one of the worrying criminal, or worrying offences that's prevailing in the country still up to today and it's an armed robbery, so you'll have to convince that the - and the target, you've targeted the people, that you didn't know whether they were opposing the IFP or whether they have even been members of the IFP.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Firstly I want to deal with so-called instructions that came to them. Now it is a given fact that the IFP made it it's official policy that they did not stand for any violence and that they did not take part in any attacks on anybody, let me say so that there were no orders given, but if you look at the IFP's political structure on a more ground level, you will then see that it is very much entangled with the traditional leadership that the IFP works closely together with. You will get what you can call political cells which an Induna resides over and in Gauteng, the most obvious example of such a cell will be a hostel. Now a hostel is a place where mostly Zulu people from KwaZulu Natal came to work here in Gauteng, stay there. The hostels differ from size, but from about 1500 people to sometimes as big as 10 000 people live in a hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we'll accept too that we had hostilities concentrated round hostels and you had IFP hostels and the ANC hostels predominantly and we had fights.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Yes, I just want to come to the instructions thereof. Now an Induna resides mainly, most of the time a head Induna resides over a specific hostel, which is a cell. Induna traditionally has a very large role to play in such a cell. He's the leader at the hostel. He gives instructions. If he does not want you to stay there, you will get out of there. He allows people to come and stay there. He's seen as a very high position, normally within the IFP as well. Minister Buthelezi gives fairly high credibility to Indunas and when you have two people like these, that have lived their whole lives under the leadership of an Induna and you get two people like these, they cannot read, they cannot write, but they take actively part in the political meetings that's being held by the Induna and they actively participate in some rallies, then I think it is common cause that these people will also listen to instructions of Indunas. I had a court case in KwaZulu Natal about a year ago where it was very obvious that Induna gave instructions for people to go out and attack a nearby village. They would never do that without the instruction from an Induna and in that court case as well, they refused to say that the Induna was the person who gave them instructions, it just works like that in their traditional settlement. That is also in this court case, my submission, why the Induna's name was not mentioned at all. They have come here to the TRC and they decided to disclose everything, even the Induna's name. The Induna is easy to find and I think that they don't have any problem with disclosing everything.

Now the next issue that I want to raise is the attack on the liquor store. The same ...(indistinct) goes here, when the Induna gives an instruction to go and attack a place or to go and do something, it's not up to them to come and ask questions why do they have to do that. They have been given instructions by an Induna. This is their leader. Maybe 100 years ago, he would have sent them out to go and do battle and they would also not have asked him what to do. It's the same what happened here. He gave them instructions, he gave them weapons and he said: "Go and rob that liquor store". Most obviously they wanted money and I do not think that the identity of the people who owned the liquor store would have mattered much. I cannot answer on the sake of Induna Msomi why he'd specifically chosen that liquor store, I do not know where he got his information from to go and attack that liquor store, but it is still my submission that he gave the instructions to these people to: "Go out and take your weapons and bring the money back that is in that store."

ADV SIGODI: What about the watch that was taken after they had taken the money? Doesn't that tip the scales towards it being an ordinary crime?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Adv Sigodi, I think that they took every small thing that they could take with them.

ADV SIGODI: That was the only thing they took from one of the people.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Yes and it was quite obviously a valuable thing and they would have taken that back to the Induna as well, see if he could see it, watches today go for a R1 000, more than R1 000, I think if they could sell that for money as well, then it would have served their purposes. Of course there is the possibility that they might have taken that watch for any whatsoever other reason.

ADV SIGODI: But those were not the instructions by the Induna to take anything. The instructions were to take the money and when they got inside, the safe was opened, the money was given to them, then why go further and take the watch?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: They might have seen it that a watch is also a very valuable item to get sold, I think Mr Myaka also said that yesterday during cross-examination, that that was the reason why the watch was taken.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, anything can be valuable, even if they'd gone into an ordinary house and found some hi-fi's and tv's, those are also valuable and can be sold and they can also be sold even in an ordinary criminal case where there is no political incentive but the question is, they were not ordered to take watches.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: Adv Sigodi, it is still my submission that when you look at the whole picture, to see that they were very much entangled in the politics, that they were part of the IFP system there at Meadowlands Hostel and they were given instructions by a person to go and commit this robbery and if you take also the time frame in mind where there was a lot of political violence, ongoing, I think it must sway into the advantage of the applicants to see ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Could I put it to you this way, I know of quite a number of incidents where apart from, they went to look for guns and they took other things too, I've always had the problem that isn't this what I refer to it as the but laws, at the end of what is it, Section 20 (2) or 20 (2) or (3), you could grant amnesty, but if it was for personal gain, you can't do it, isn't that overriding everything? You could have gone with a certain intention, but the moment you take something for personal gain, it's overriding, then the but laws comes into operation and it negatives everything that happened before and that may be a problem in this matter, to you.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: I agree with you Mr Chairperson. It can be a problem, but I think if you still look at the whole picture, see that they went there to get the money and that basically all they did. There was a watch taken, but still they had in mind to take the money and to take it back to Induna Msomi, I think that they still followed the political objective for what the reason was, for what they took that money for. I do not think they would have pocketed the money for themselves, if they got instructions from Induna Msomi to bring the money back to him and I still think that they did act with a political objective in mind, go and get the money and bring it back to Induna Msomi, so that other weapons can be bought.

Then the last thing that I would want to address is for what they would be applying for amnesty. It is my submission that they would apply for amnesty for all the offences that were committed while robbing this liquor store. It would include they had guns for them and at the moment when somebody started shooting at them - it would include the attempted murder.

CHAIRPERSON: Murder or attempted murder.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: On the side of Mr Myaka, he specifically said that he tried to shoot at the person and that the gun did not work and it will also then include armed robbery and possession of illegal firearms and ammunition. Mr Chairperson, that is all.

MR MAPOMA IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, I won't take it much - I'm sorry. Chair I appreciate the problem of the applicants in this matter, particularly with regards to the instructions to do what they did and the policy of their political organisation. The problem in it, Chairperson, is that the IFP's stance throughout is that they are engines, so to speak, even in patent political violence matters, the IFP never came out to claim liability for that and it then makes it very difficult to say this action was IFP, in line with the IFP or not and the circumstances and whilst there is nothing to corroborate the applicant's version in this matter, on the other hand we do not have evidence to negate what they are saying. In the circumstances, Chairperson, I would just leave it in the hands of the Committee, indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that complete our roll here?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well thank you for the co-operation of everybody, the interpreters, the media, everybody who co

operated and helped us in finishing the roll at an early stage. I hope you'll all travel safely and we'll try and give our decision as soon as possible. Thank you to my colleagues too for being so patient.

HEARING ADJOURNS