CHAIRPERSON: Good Morning everybody, I apologise for the late start this morning. We had a logistical problem. One of the interpreters came late so we could not start until the arrival of that person. We have two matters to be heard in Klerksdorp this week, the first one that we are going to hear is the application of Mr N L Dlova and then that will be followed by the application of Messrs P J Rudolph and E N Terre’blanche.
CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT
I would just like to introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Adv Bosman, she is a Member of the Amnesty Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. She is an Advocate and comes from the Cape. On my right is Adv Ntsiki Sandi, also a Member of the Amnesty Committee, and he is from East London, and I am Selwyn Miller and I am a Judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape as well.
Mr Mbandazayo, could I ask you please to place yourself on the record in respect of the first matter.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo. I am representing the applicant in this matter. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Mbandazayo, are you ready to commence?
MS PATEL: Sorry.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I have overlooked Ms Ramula Patel, sorry Ramula.
MS PATEL: That’s quite alright Judge. Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence for the Amnesty Committee. Before we proceed, I would like to place on record that unfortunately the docket in this matter is not available, that we have made efforts to try to trace certain of the victims, but have been unsuccessful. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. May the applicant, Mr Dlova be sworn in, Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlova, do you have any objection to taking the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation?
L N DLOVA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Dlova, the affidavit which is in front of you is
also before the Honourable Committee, Members of the Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourselves and do you abide by its contents?
MR DLOVA: Yes, that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I will proceed and read the affidavit and after that I will go through with the applicant for explanation of certain issues before he is cross-examined.
The affidavit reads thus:
"I, the undersigned, Luinkuleka(?) Dlova, do hereby make an oath and state that I am the applicant in the Lichtenburg operation. The facts to which I depose are true and correct and within my personal knowledge, unless the content indicates otherwise.
I was born in Cape Town at Kwalanga Township on the 28th day of November 1962 and grew up in the Western Cape. I did my primary education at Thembanilo Primary and did my Junior Secondary at Moshes Junior Secondary. I did standard 8 and 9 at Langa High School and standard 9 at Matanzima High School at Xala in the former Transkei. I left school in standard nine, due to financial problems as I was born of a single parent.
I joined PAC in 1980 through Azanyo. I was then a member of Langa Youth Movement under the guidance of Rev Moletsane. I left the country in April 1986 to Zimbabwe via Botswana where I joined Apla. I left Zimbabwe in June 1986 for Libya and Yugoslavia where I did my military training. In Libya I was trained in infantry, explosive and guerrilla warfare tactics.
In Yugoslavia I did an intermediate course on intelligence and security. We were 26 cadres of APLA who underwent this training. I only remember, amongst those I trained with, Tsepho Mtwetu, Sipho Mhlango and Medisi Ketelo. I came back from Yugoslavia to Zimbabwe in February 1988. In Zimbabwe I became involved with PAC/APLA security under the command of the late comrade Mozi Mdluli, until I was deployed inside the country in July 1988.
As APLA operative, my general instructions from APLA High Command was to prosecute the armed struggle with all means against the then racist minority regime which was undemocratic and oppressive.
The said armed struggle was in essence, a gorilla warfare, during which we as APLA cadres had to seek and attack the bastions and minions of the then aforesaid regime. The ultimate objective of the PAC and APLA was not only to topple the then racist minority regime, but to eventually return the land to the majority of the African people.
The bastions and minions of the then erstwhile regime were in terms of APLA prospective, the members of the South African Defence Force, the members of the South African Police and reservists in general, the farmers, as they belonged to the commando structures over and above the fact that they occupied the farms from which we had to drive them away so as to widen our territorial operational base, which was aimed at eventually consolidating the liberated and repossessed land, the white homes which were garrisons of apartheid.
My general instruction was to seek and identify and attack the enemy who was seen in the context of the above bastions and minions of the regime and also to train other cadres and command them in whatever operation that is being embarked upon.
In consequence of, and in pursuit of the above stated objectives, during or about July 1988 I was called by the late comrade Mozi Mdluli, who told me that I was to be deployed inside the country and further briefing will be given to me in Bulawayo by the late comrade Mato Damiole. I travelled by train to Bulawayo and I was met by Comrade Mandla at the station, who took me to a safe house. In this house, I met the late Comrade Mato Damiole, Ike, Castro and Bonge Mabuto. Thereafter, Comrades Sipho Mhlango, Medisi Ketelo and Tsepho Mtwetu arrived.
The late Comrade Mato Damiole briefed us that we were to be deployed inside the country to seek, identify and attack the enemy who was seen in the context of the above bastions and minions of the regime. That was the order that was given to us by the late Comrade Mato Damiole. Comrade Sipho Mhlango was appointed the commander of the unit and I was appointed the Political Commissar of the unit.
We were given the following arms and ammunition: 1 scorpion, 4 submachine guns, 6 grenades each, that is 2 Chinese grenades each, 2 F1 grenades each, 2 defensive grenades each, made in Yugoslavia, dynamite, TNT, detonating cords, electric capsules, 6 magazines each and extra boxes of magazines ..."
...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed Mr Mbandazayo, perhaps if Mr Dlova could tell us what a scorpion is.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
MR DLOVA: The scorpion is a sub-machine pistol. You can use it as a submachine and you can use it as a pistol with a range of 75 to 150 meters. It is larger than a pistol, it's from 75 to 150 meters.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
"We travelled by Landrover from Bulawayo to Botswana borders. The Landrover was driven by Comrade Ike and Comrade Castro also accompanied us to Botswana. The arms and ammunition were in our bags. Comrade Ike dropped us at the borders and we crossed the borders by jumping the fence, accompanied by Castro. We were met on the other side of the border by Comrade Chand, Nseki and Junior. We were taken to Comrade Chand's house where we stayed from Friday night until between 12 midnight and 1 a.m. on Sunday morning. We were taken by Comrades Nseki, Keith and Chand to Ramatlhapane border post. We crossed the border post by jumping the fence to the side of the former Boputhatswana homeland. Comrade Tsepho, the commander was the person who knew the route we were going to.
Chairperson:
"... we were going to"
"We walked until we got a lift which dropped us next to Boputhatswana stadium. Comrade Tsepho and Medisi left us to get transport and they came back with a taxi which took us to the rank. We took a taxi mini-bus to Johannesburg. In the taxi were certain different seats. Comrade Tsepho was in the front seat and I was in the back seat. The other two comrades were in the middle seats. The taxi mini-bus drove to Johannesburg. The taxi was stopped at Lichtenburg in a police roadblock. One policeman came to the driver and spoke to him and after that all the passengers were told to alight with their bags or luggage and that we must be next to our bags or luggage.
Whilst we were still standing in an almost half moon order next to the fence, the commander comrade Tsepho said: 'green' and we knew what that meant. He threw one F1 grenade to the police and the police started shooting and I also threw an F1 grenade and there was confusion and police were shooting randomly.
I ran away during that confusion and hid myself behind a building which I thought it was a church. When I arrived behind this building, comrade Tsepho was already there. We then observed from a distance and I saw comrade Medisi talking to other people around the scene. Since I was a Political Commissar of the unit, I took over the command of the unit because I was sure that the way the police were shooting at comrade Tsepho after he threw the first grenade, he will not survive. I told comrade Tsepho to take a taxi to Klerksdorp and we would meet there at the taxi rank. I told him that I would try to signal to comrade Medisi to do the same thing, but I did not manage.
I took a taxi to Klerksdorp and passed at a distance from the scene of the shooting as motor vehicles were being diverted. On my arrival at Klerksdorp, I waited for comrade Tsepho and comrade Medisi, but they never arrived. I then decided to take a taxi to Johannesburg.
At Johannesburg, I met a person by the name Ranchero. I asked him to help me with accommodation. He took me to Alexander township, where he accommodated me. I read from the newspaper on a Monday morning that one of our comrades was arrested and the other two died. There were conflicting reports as to how many people died and were injured in the shoot-out. After some days, I told this person who was accommodating me, that I want to leave the country and he arranged that I meet a certain person in Messina who will help me go to Zimbabwe.
After a week, I was accompanied by another person to Messina to meet this person who was to help me to Zimbabwe. When we arrived at Messina, this person was not present but had gone to Venda. I came back to Johannesburg and from Johannesburg I went to Ficksburg and I crossed the borders on foot to Lesotho. I went to the offices of the PAC at Sea Point(sic). It was at Lesotho where I received the information that the person who was arrested was comrade Tsepho. That also, comrade Medisi died. It was alleged that he died when he tried to throw a grenade.
In Lesotho I made contact with Harare and arrangements were made for me to travel to Tanzania. I did travel to Tanzania and stayed for about a month before I went back to Zimbabwe. I was again deployed inside the country at the end of 1991, and was stationed in Umtata where I became a head of intelligence of APLA in the former Transkei homeland. I held that position until the beginning of 1995, when I joined National Intelligence Agency. I am currently employed as Liaison Officer of National Intelligence agency.
I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the Act and that I have made full and proper disclosure of my involvement in this operation."
Chairperson, with your permission, if the Committee would allow me, if the Committee has no questions, I will start at paragraph 6 of the affidavit, if there's no questions ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, I think you can proceed Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO
Mr Dlova, in paragraph 6 you said you became involved in PAC security under the command of the late comrade Mozi, can you tell the Committee who is comrade Mozi Mdluli and how did he die, if you know about that?
MR DLOVA: He was one of the commanders of security in Zimbabwe from Tanzania. He was then transferred from Tanzania to Zimbabwe. He was working under the security or intelligence of the PAC. I worked with him until 1991 when I came back to this country. After 1994, he became the general manager of the security of intelligence and in 1995 or early 1996, he was found dead in his car in Pretoria. Up until today, we don’t know whether he killed himself or he was killed. So I don’t know whether I am leaving something out.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mbandazayo, I don’t know whether I have perhaps missed something, but has your client confirmed the contents of the ...(intervention)
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.
ADV BOSMAN: I’m sorry.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if there are no questions on that point, I will proceed to paragraph 11 of the affidavit.
At paragraph 11 you mentioned the late comrade Mato Damiole. Can you tell the Committee about Mato Damiole?
MR DLOVA: Comrade Mato was the head of operations. He was based in Bulawayo. He was the one who was giving out instructions. After the High Command gave orders, he would be the one who would brief us or he would be the one giving instructions about where the unit was going to operate and what kind of weapons were going to be used.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you also enlighten the Committee, because I understand he is also late, do you know how he died?
MR DLOVA: He was very sick. I think it was in 1990 when he died in Bulawayo and he was buried in Harare.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Can you also tell the Committee about the other comrades, comrade Mandla, Ike, Castro and Bonge Mabuto, whether they are still alive and if they are alive where are they. You mentioned this in paragraph 11 and if you can start with Mandla, if you know.
MR DLOVA: Mandla died in 1996 and Bonge Mabuto was involved in a car accident in Botswana. He died there. Castro is still around, he is working at the South African Defence Force. Ike is still around, he is working for a private security company and Sipho, Sipho Mhlangu, we met for the first time in Zimbabwe. He arranged for us to be trained in 1986. We then went to Libya with Medisi and Sipho. When we came back from Libya, we went from Libya to Yugoslavia and we all went to Zimbabwe. They then went to Bulawayo and I was in Harare, but we met again when we were coming back to this country, when we were going to infiltrate this country. Sipho died in an operation and Medisi and Tsepho was the one who was arrested and he worked, he joined the police, he worked with the police.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if there are no more questions ...
CHAIRPERSON: Just one question, Mr Dlova, you say that you got your orders in Bulawayo to get back into South Africa and then attack the enemy as set out above in your affidavit. So, all of you who infiltrated, were you all part of one unit and how were you going to work? Would you pick up orders from anyone else in South Africa once you were there or was it in the discretion of that unit itself to identify targets and attack them and act as either an attacking unit or a repossession unit or whatever? Could you just give us an idea.
MR DLOVA: First of all, we were one unit and Sipho was appointed as a commander and I was commissar. Tsepho and Medisi were going to help us with logistic stuff. That was our unit and what was happening was - as you can see from these weapons that are written here, our duty was to attack the enemy and since there are also explosives here and we were going to attack the buildings that were used by the enemy. And one other thing is that we were trained to do all this, we were trained to use explosives.
Our unit had nobody inside the country to direct us but Tsepho was going to be in charge because he knew the direction and the accommodation and we were supposed to identify the target as we were trained and as we knew what was needed from us before we attacked the target. I don’t know whether I have answered your question.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you have, thank you.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I will then move briefly to paragraph 13.
Mr Dlova, can you for - if the Committee have no questions regarding other weapons, can you explain to the Committee what was detonating cords and electric capsules are, what were you going to use them for?
MR DLOVA: Detonating cords and electric capsules were going to be used to combine dynamite and TNT for explosives. We were using them as charges of explosives when we targeted a place. To target, we were going to place them, the charges. For example, the electric capsule is like an electric cord, you would use it in connecting other stuff and when there is electricity in the building you can connect this cord, these detonating cords and then it will explode when it combines with electricity and the building would explode and you would burn it.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, if there are no further questions I'm moving to paragraph 14. In paragraph 14, can you tell the Committee about Chand, Medisi and Junior. Where are they and what are they doing now presently, and what were their positions within APLA? -Chand, Medisi and Junior.
MR DLOVA: Chand was the person who was bringing people from Botswana inside this country. His car was used and his house was used. So he was using transport and in accommodation. Junior and Medisi and Castro, they were responsible for Botswana in two ways. First of all they were responsible for their recruits from Botswana who were going to join APLA. Secondly, they were responsible for people who were from outside the country who were coming inside the country. They were responsible for telling those people what time to come in and thirdly, they were responsible for reconnoitring the place to make sure that the road was safe for people to go.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, where are they, Chand, Medisi and Junior.
MR DLOVA: Chand died in 1990, if I am not mistaken. His house in Botswana there explosives there and Medisi's working for South African Defence Force. He is one of the Commanders there. And Junior is a Lieutenant Colonel in South African National Defence Force.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I will move to paragraph 16, 17 and I will combine them.
Can you, Mr Dlova, just give us, give the Committee a brief picture about what actually happened at the roadblock starting from where you boarded a taxi to Johannesburg until you were at the roadblock and what happened after the roadblock, in detail, so that you give the Committee the full picture. Since all of us were not there, you are the only person who ...(indistinct)
TAPE FAULTY - POWER FAILURE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, you were about to deal with the actual incident itself that took place in Lichtenburg, as set out in paragraph 16 and 17 of the affidavit.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. If I may repeat the question in case it was not recorded because of the power failure.
Mr Dlova, if you can take the Committee through what happened when you arrived at Mmabatho up until the after incident. Take the Committee to details, give the Committee a picture of what happened as all of us were not there. You are the only one who knows what actually happened.
MR DLOVA: On this particular day, it was on a Sunday, a Sunday morning when we arrived in Mmabatho. We went next to Mmabatho stadium. Sipho and Medisi left me, and Tsepho and I and they went looking for a taxi. They found a taxi and they took us to the taxi rank. When we arrived at the taxi rank, we got another taxi that was going to Jo'burg. We then boarded that taxi and Sipho gave us instructions that we were going to get into this taxi. It was going to take us to Johannesburg.
In this taxi, we pretended as not knowing each another. Sipho was sitting in the front seat, Medisi was sitting at the next seat and Tsepho in the middle seat of the taxi. I was sitting at the back seat in a corner, on the right corner.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us an approximation of the number of people in the taxi?
MR DLOVA: Together with us, the taxi was a fifteen-seater, so we were fifteen. The taxi left for Jo'burg from Mmabatho. I am not sure about the kilometres, how many kilometres from Mmabatho to where the roadblock was. When we stopped at the roadblock one policeman came, he spoke with the driver. After that, we were told to get out of the taxi and each person was to stand next to his bag.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Dlova, if I may interrupt. These weapons that you brought in, that you have set out in your affidavit, the weapons and the other equipment, were each of you carrying some in your bags or was it all in one bag with only one person carrying all those weapons?
MR DLOVA: If we can look at this affidavit, each of us had his own bag with weapons.
When we got out of the taxi, they told us to stand next to our bags. Comrade Sipho was the one who first got out of the taxi and he was looking on the other side when I was getting out of the taxi. The police were on his bag. And he had grenades with him. When I was going towards the place that I was supposed to stand in, he then used the term "green" and then he took out a grenade. After taking that grenade out, he threw it and then the shooting started. There were police next to me. They were standing at the back of the Casspir. Then they told the taxi to go on the side so it was next to the Casspir. I then threw one grenade. What happened is, the police were just shooting randomly because they did not know what was going on.
CHAIRPERSON: Where did you throw your grenade, in which direction, or at any specific target?
MR DLOVA: I threw it to the police, those that were standing behind the Casspir. Because we were standing in a moon shape, I was the last person, so the police were not far from where I was standing, because after Sipho threw his grenade, they all looked at him. As they were busy shooting at Sipho’s side I took out my grenade and there was that confusion and I found a chance to run away. That’s what happened and then I met Tsepho when I was running away. I found him in a church building. I am not sure if it was a church building or what. When I got to Tsepho, he told me that my right eye was bleeding, it was injured.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Dlova, so this took place in a town, it wasn’t in the countryside? - seeing that there was a church close by.
MR DLOVA: It was in Lichtenburg next to a circle, that is where the roadblock happened. It was not in town, because in that ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: On the outskirts of the town?
MR DLOVA: Yes
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mbandazayo?
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mbandazayo, just before you proceed, may I just ask Mr Dlova, at the time when you threw the grenade, what was your intention, why did you throw it? Your evidence was that in the confusion you got a chance to get away, but why did you throw it?
MR DLOVA: First of all, because of our duty inside this country we were here to fight the security forces of the time, so because there was that roadblock I saw them as targets because if we didn’t fight with them we would have been arrested, so our job would be useless then and one of the laws of APLA - we were told not to surrender to the enemy, we were told not to surrender weapons or anything. That was my intention.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Dlova, just to put it bluntly, your intention was to kill if necessary? I just want clarity on that.
MR DLOVA: In a war people die and others get injured, so the fact that I had weapons from outside of this country, the aim was that when I meet an enemy, I would shoot. If he gets injured, he would be injured, if he gets killed, he would be killed. He would be fortunate to get injured.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, that clarifies. Thank you very much.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dlova, can you then - after the incident, after the shoot-out, that confusion, after you had thrown the grenade, can you tell the Committee, thereafter what happened.
MR DLOVA: After that, after meeting Tsepho inside, behind this building we tried to go back to the people there, because the people who were in that taxi were also confused. I went to Tsepho and I told him that Sipho was injured or he might be killed. I was going to be the one who would take over and I told him that we must leave the scene before there would be any reinforcement so that we could be safe. I then told him that we would try to meet with Medisi and we would take a taxi to Klerksdorp where we would meet and from there we would see what to do, either we would contact people from outside, give them a signal about what happened or we stay for a while and observe the situation.
When I told Tsepho this he agreed on condition that he would try to call Medisi and then I left them, both of them. I took a taxi and after all this, the police, I think there were two police who were trying to stop the cars and after 30 minutes they opened for the cars so that the cars would pass. I took a taxi and then I passed the scene. I took a taxi to Klerksdorp. That was the last time I saw Medisi and Sipho. When I arrived in Klerksdorp at the taxi rank, I stood there or I stayed there for a while and they didn’t arrive. I took another taxi to Johannesburg. That’s where I found out, the following day, from the newspapers. When I was reading a newspaper, I found out that two people who were expected to be guerrillas, they died and one was arrested and one ran away, escaped. So I didn’t know who those people were between Medisi and Tsepho, who was arrested or who died, but I was sure that, as they were saying one person had died, I thought that it was Sipho but I was not sure about the other two, and as it is already stated in the affidavit, I found out when I arrived in Lesotho, I found out who was arrested between Medisi and Tsepho.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That’s all Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.
Ms Patel, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?
MS PATEL: No, thank you, Honourable chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sandi, do you have any questions you would like to put?
ADV SANDI: No, no questions chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Dlova, just once again for clarity, if you turn to your application form, paragraph 7(b) - it's just a technical matter, but it we could just get it right for the record, it says there:
"State capacity in which you served in the organisation, institute, body or liberation movement concerned. If applicable, and membership number, if any."
It says there: "ordinary member". Your evidence was, if I am correct, that you were a Political Commissar of APLA. Is that correct?
MR DLOVA: Yes, that is correct. I was a Political Commissar of that unit that was going inside this country.
ADV BOSMAN: And that was an APLA unit?
MR DLOVA: Yes.
ADV BOSMAN: Then, did you at the time - your evidence was that you were going to attack buildings, did you at the time, identify any particular buildings when you were going to Johannesburg? Was there any specific planning or were you just going to play it by ear once you arrived in Johannesburg?
MR DLOVA: We - at that time, there was no target that was identified yet, we just thought that when we were inside this country we would reconnoitre places and then consider security and when we had selected the area, we would consider the political implications of that and we would also look at the effect of what APLA was going to gain or to achieve.
ADV BOSMAN: Just one more question. What arms or explosives did you, just in broad outline, carry personally?
MR DLOVA: In my bag there were submachine guns, six grenades, TNT, dynamite and these weapons as they were written here, each and every bag had these weapons, and there were also extra boxes of magazines.
ADV BOSMAN: And then lastly, Mr Dlova, your legal representative surely advised you that the possession of arms and ammunition and possession of explosives are offences, and the illegal entry into the country are offences. Do you understand that?
MR DLOVA: That question had a problem because we were fighting the unlawful government because ...(intervention)
ADV BOSMAN: We are not setting a trap for you. We just want you to make it quite clear what you are applying for. You have given evidence that you had come into the country illegally, all I want to establish is, is that correct? It’s a technical matter at this stage.
CHAIRPERSON: Whether you agree with the law as it existed then or not, do you agree that if you were to have been arrested you could have been charged in court and convicted for entering into the country illegally and also for being in unlawful possession of firearms in addition to the attempted murder?
MR DLOVA: Yes, it was going to be like that. They were going to charge me with these weapons and because I came to this country not legally. And I apply for amnesty as it is written here, that there was confusion, people died and people got injured but there were different reports of how many people were injured and how many people were killed.
CHAIRPERSON: Am I correct in saying here, Mr Dlova, that you are applying for amnesty in respect of, from what you've mentioned now, the illegal entry into the country, the unlawful possession of firearms and any crime or delict that may have arisen out of the throwing of the hand grenade as you did in Lichtenburg?
MR DLOVA: Yes, that is correct.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson, that is all.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any other - sorry Mr Dlova, that then concludes your testimony, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Do you have any other witnesses you are calling or not?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, I have only one witness, just on a small point, it will be General Fihla.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson may the witness be sworn in please.
CHAIRPERSON: F-I-H-L-A?
GEN FIHLA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection to taking the oath?
MBULELE RAYMOND FIHLA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Fihla, can you for the record tell the Committee, what are you presently doing and where are you presently placed.
CHAIRPERSON: That is besides sitting in the chair in this hall giving evidence.
GEN FIHLA: Your Honour, I am presently a member of the South African National Defence Force, working with Defence Intelligence and my rank is that of a Brigadier-General.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Fihla. Mr Fihla, can you, for the benefit of the Committee tell the Committee, do you know the applicant who just testified a few minutes ago?
GEN FIHLA: Yes, I know him.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you just briefly tell the Committee, how do you know the applicant?
GEN FIHLA: I think I know him from when he came outside the country. I first met him in Harare when they went for military training, because I was already based in Harare at the time.
CHAIRPERSON: So, were you a member of APLA at the time?
GEN FIHLA: I was already a member of APLA at that time. And then subsequently, I met him again in Dar-es-Salaam immediately after he had come back from Lesotho after his operation he is applying amnesty for and immediately thereafter as well, he also served under me because he was appointed Regional Intelligence Officer in the Transkei and at the time I was appointed Director for APLA Intelligence.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you for the benefit of the Committee, tell the Committee whether you know anything about the operation and some of the people he mentioned that they gave him orders to come inside the country?
GEN FIHLA: Yes, I know all the people who gave him the instructions to come inside the country because they were members of the APLA High Command and they were my colleagues and the only information I had pertaining to the operation itself, was based on the reports which I subsequently received. When he came back from the country - at that time, I was at a military attaché in Tanzania and the one who went with Lieutenant-Colonel Ndabene(?) to go and collect him from the airport when he came back.
CHAIRPERSON: So you are confirming that what the applicant says about the infiltration into the country with the weapons, was in accordance with APLA policies and instructions?
GEN FIHLA: Yes, I do.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, that is the short evidence I want to relate on this aspect just to confirm that the applicant was a member of APLA and when he came inside the country, he was on the direct orders of the High Command of which Brigadier-General Fihla was a member of the High Command at the time.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel, do you have any questions to ask the General?
MS PATEL: No, thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sandi, do you have any questions?
ADV SANDI: No, thank you, Chair, no questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, General Fihla, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, that is the evidence of the applicant, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Patel?
MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson there is no opposition from my side. I won’t be calling any witnesses either. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, are you in a position to make submissions?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson, I am in a position, Chairperson, I will just be brief.
ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo, can I just for a moment, I just want to clarify something with the Chair.
MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. Chairperson, it is my submission that the applicant has met the requirement of Section 20(1) and (2) of the Act and that he was clearly acting on behalf of APLA, a publicly known political organisation and a liberation movement which was engaged in a political struggle against the state at the time.
Chairperson, there is evidence which is undisputed, that at the time when the applicant came inside the country and was involved in this incident, he was clearly acting on the instructions of APLA and that has been confirmed by the member of the High Command. Chairperson, further, as one of the requirements of the Act, the applicant has made full and proper disclosure with regard to his role in this incident and also it has been established clearly that he did not act for any personal gain when he conducted the operation.
Having said that, Chairperson, I wouldn’t like to detain the Committee with any argument with regard to this matter, suffice to say that the Committee is well aware, according to the submission of the PAC with regard to its policy as is also clearly stated in the affidavit of the applicant, that the South African Defence Force and the South African Police generally were regarded as pillars of apartheid and that in order to destroy the apartheid you have to fight against those pillars and you have to destroy them. And it was in that context that the applicant was engaged in the Lichtenburg roadblock with the police. He was pursuing those goals and those objectives which had been set by the APLA High Command and PAC and as such Chairperson, it is therefore my humble submission to this Honourable Committee, that the applicant met all the requirements of the Act as prescribed and that he should be granted amnesty.
Thank you Chairperson, unless the Committee wants me to address it on any other specific points.
CHAIRPERSON: No, thank you Mr Mbandazayo, it seems to be a pretty straightforward matter, this one. A written decision will be handed down as soon as possible in this matter.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, so we will then just reserve the decision in order to reduce it to writing and a written decision will be handed down in the very near future. That then concludes this particular hearing. We will now take the lunch adjournment, I see it is almost lunch time in any event and we will start with the next hearing at half past one or as soon thereafter as is possible. Thank you. Thank you very much Mr Mbandazayo, thank you for your assistance in this matter.
MS PATEL: Would everyone please rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
