CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman. The following applicant is Mr Potsane, he will be led by my learned friend, Mr Lengane.
MR POTSANE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR LENGANE: Good afternoon Mr Potsane. Before we commence with the questioning can I please confirm with you again, you are testifying in which language, Sotho, English?
MR POTSANE: ...[inaudible]
MR LENGANE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: I think if we could get is name for the record.
MR LENGANE: Please give us your full names Mr Potsane.
MR POTSANE: My name is Neo Potsane.
MR LENGANE: Mr Potsane, you were born in March 1960 in Soweto, is that correct?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR LENGANE: And in 1977 you left the country to join Umkhonto weSizwe abroad, is that correct?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR LENGANE: At the time you were 17, were you at school at the time or were you employed?
MR POTSANE: Yes, I was still a student at the time.
MR LENGANE: So you left school for exile to join Umkhonto abroad?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR LENGANE: Mr Potsane, could you kindly tell the Committee what it is that motivated you at that time at that age to take that step?
MR POTSANE: Well my political awareness came about with the events of June 1976, when I actually saw people rising up and going to the streets. Although I didn't understand much at the time, but the events that came on afterwards, people getting detained, people getting shot, you know people, some of them I knew very well. They would come back and tell us what was actually happening behind bars and how they were being tortured. Those things actually told me that we are dealing with people who did not have human value and were intent on destroying us as a people. That is how I actually got motivated you know.
MR LENGANE: When you say we were dealing with people who did not have human value, who are you talking about? Will you please clarify that?
MR POTSANE: I'm talking about the previous regime.
MR LENGANE: When you left in 1977 you went to Lesotho, is that correct?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR LENGANE: And remained there for how long?
MR POTSANE: I remained for about six months, that is from June to May of 1978.
MR LENGANE: What happened then in May of 1978 onwards?
MR POTSANE: In May of 1978 I was able to go to Swaziland and eventually I was taken by members of the African National Congress to Angola where I began my training around June of 1978.
MR LENGANE: Yes, please carry on.
MR POTSANE: Well I trained I think from, it could have been August because when we arrived there was no training schedule so we had to wait a little bit and then I think from August our training went on until May of the following year.
MR LENGANE: Yes. I will skip the other things which happened between then and 1985, when you told me during our consultations that you came into contact with Mr Masina, Mr Masango and Mr Makhura among others, is that correct? Is that when you first came into contact with them, in 1985/1984?
MR POTSANE: Yes, in 1985. I just felt in me that I was actually ready to go and make my contributions here in South Africa ...[intervention]
MR LENGANE: Sorry to interrupt you there. We will come to that in the fullness of time. I just wanted to know if before 1985 you had already met any of your fellow applicants anywhere in Zambia, Angola or any other place?
MR POTSANE: Before 1985 I had already met two of my applicants who are present now, that is Ting Ting Masango and Joseph Makhura.
MR LENGANE: So you must have come to meet with them because you were members of the same army, liberation army of the African National Congress, is that correct?
MR POTSANE: Yes. At different times we found ourselves in the very same camp and getting to know one another. That is how I got to know them.
MR LENGANE: So in 1985 you said to us that, you told me at least in consultation, that you then approached Chris Hani and asked of him to do certain things for you, could you briefly tell the Committee what it is that you approached Mr Hani about and the outcome of that approach?
MR POTSANE: Well in 1985 I felt that actually I was ready to come and make my contributions here in South Africa and at that time I had already made contact with Jabu Masina whom at that time I'd known that they were going to come here to come and fight here in the country.
I told Jabu that I would like to be part of their unit but then are process that, you don't just jump into a unit and say I'm going because things are done in a certain order, in a certain fashion. So I actually had to go to meet the late comrade Chris Hani and told him of my desire to go home and make my contribution there and he said he would take it up with the PMC, which is the Political Military Council, which he did and my request was approved and I was actually allowed to join the unit.
MR LENGANE: Mr Potsane, when you made this approached and when it was finally approved, did you know exactly what mandate Mr Masina and his unit were given to go and carry out in their imminent deployment then?
MR POTSANE: Not at that time.
MR LENGANE: Mr Masina has given evidence here that he was appointed as chief of the assassination squad, you're saying that you did not know that they were being deployment, they were about to be deployed to come and do operations focused on that.
MR POTSANE: Well let me make it clear that at that time I was talking to Mr Masina, I will understand why he did not tell me exactly the nature of that task he was coming to do here in South Africa because that was part of, it was still under some kind of a secret you know ...[intervention]
MR LENGANE: Excuse me, sorry to interrupt you. The answer to the question is that you did not know?
MR POTSANE: Yes.
MR LENGANE: The exact nature of the operations they were being deployed for in the country?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR LENGANE: What then was your interest in joining them? Please take it slowly.
MR POTSANE: My interest in joining the unit was to come and fight here in South Africa, to make a contribution too because when I left the country it was with the aim of coming back and fighting at some point in my life.
MR LENGANE: Should we understand you Mr Potsane, to be saying that your desire was to come and advance the armed struggle of the ANC and Umkhonto weSizwe, is that what you mean by fight?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR LENGANE: And you say that that was approved by the highest decision-making body at that level, the PMC?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR LENGANE: Well then this was approved, you were infiltrated into the country, when was this and with whom were you infiltrated into the country?
MR POTSANE: I was infiltrated in 1986 together with Joseph Makhura, Mandla Shezi and Rufus. We came in to join the two applicants, Jabu Masina and Ting Ting Masango who were already inside the country.
MR LENGANE: And so you joined this unit inside the country?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR LENGANE: Please tell us what happened then, your activities within there and so and so on, up to the point where the incident that we are here about occurred.
MR POTSANE: Well there were many incidents that occurred you know including other operations which are not the scope of this Commission. Basically Ting Ting used to stay in Winterveld and Joseph Makhura used to stay in Mabopane and Mandla Shezi used to stay in Mabopane too. Mr and Jabu Masina were staying in Mamelodi. That is how we were spread out.
MR LENGANE: Yes, please carry on Mr Potsane.
MR POTSANE: Occasionally we would meet, maybe fortnightly to come and update one another as to how things are and what will be our next move and that is the general ...[indistinct] because we had a mission to do in the country so we would always meat and talk about what is supposed to happen. And maybe sometimes we might need the assistance.
We have to reconnaissance something in Mamelodi, things that need to be done and we need their help and they will come this side to Mamelodi to come and help us and they will also make certain things on that side, moves which they might require us to come and help with and we will do so.
MR LENGANE: Okay. Mr Potsane, let's come to this incident. We have heard now from Mr Molope that the incident in fact took place in June, on the 21st of June 1986, what was your specific personal role in that matter on that day?
MR POTSANE: Well on the said day of the 21st of June 1986 I would say I did not take any active role in terms of ...[intervention]
MR LENGANE: Yes, please carry on.
MR POTSANE: In terms of carrying out the operation. As I've already stated I was staying with the commander, that is Jabu Masina in Mamelodi and during the process of which, I think when the reconnaissance was started two weeks before, as Mr Masango has already said ...[intervention]
MR LENGANE: Excuse me, just hold it there Mr Potsane. You are saying to us that on that particular day you did not have any direct role in the killing of Brigadier Molope, is that correct?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
MR LENGANE: Prior to that day, did you have anything to do together with members of your unit? Did you have anything to do around discussions, the identification and so on, of Mr Molope as a target?
MR POTSANE: Well Mr Molope as a target, when it was actually discussed I was present. Actually we discussed Mr Molope in the light that is he or not a legitimate target and then we continued to spell out and then all the things that were relevant, that Mr Molope had taken part in the Winterveld Massacre, people who were detained were actually talking about him, that he was brutal to them.
Furthermore there was also the Commission of Inquiry which was going on at the time of which Mr Molope was the, if I may have to say, the prime accused person of, actually responsible of issuing out an order to kill the people who were on the march there. Of which Mr Molope admitted, he had admitted that he was actually responsible for taking out that order.
MR LENGANE: Excuse me about that. Please carry on Mr Potsane.
MR POTSANE: Well in the light of all those factors you know as the unit, and I was present too when in actual fact it was decided that Mr Molope should be eliminated.
MR LENGANE: So in a sense Mr Potsane, you are telling the Committee that you are in some way associated with the incident together with Mr Masina and Masango and Makhura? Is that what you are saying? Despite the fact that you were not there on the 21st of June 1986.
MR POTSANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LENGANE: You have said to the Committee today that there was a Commission of Inquiry at which Mr Molope was the prime accused, please very briefly explain what you mean by that.
MR POTSANE: What I mean about that is this Commission was instituted in order to look into the facts that led to the massacre or the killings of the eleven people who died there and Mr Molope was one of the persons who was supposed to come and give evidence there as to how things turned out and he indeed confirmed that he actually gave out an order to shoot.
MR LENGANE: When did it come to your notice, when did you come to know that Mr Molope had made that admission, was it after he had been killed, before he was identified or during the Commission?
MR POTSANE: I cannot recall exactly when but it could have been around, because if I recall very well the Commission should have started around April and it could have been somewhere between then and August.
MR LENGANE: Just one last two questions Mr Potsane. Is there anything else that you would like to say that you have not said yet?
MR POTSANE: Well I must say that I've come here as a person and also believing that my coming here is a correct one because from the moment that this process was started I never had any doubt that it is going to have some form of benefit to us.
Even though it might not have direct benefit to us I know that we are going to have kids who are going to remain behind after this dust has settled and those kids, I wish they could grow up in the spirit of which there will be no finger pointing. I just wish that the family of Mr Molope, I know they have lost a dear father but the events just turned out that he happened to be on the other side of where I was and I had a responsibility to do. At that time to advance the cause of our people and to protect them. And all that was not done in order to hurt them as individuals.
I am ready to extend my hand of friendship to them if they will allow me and I know the pain they are going through even though this matter has happened 12 years ago. I know it's painful to lose a father.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lengane?
MR LENGANE: That will be all, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LENGANE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Potsane, you testified that you were present when the planning or the plotting was being done, am I correct?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
ADV MPSHE: Who took the decision to eliminate Molope?
MR POTSANE: When the planning is done, especially on a sensitive matter like when a person is going to be killed, each and every person in it will become effective and then you know, put them on the table and finally the decision will come you know, with the commander that indeed these factors suffice that you know, that this action can be taken. So it was Mr Jabu Masina who finally took the decision as a commander.
ADV MPSHE: After all of you had put the factors on the table?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
ADV MPSHE: And by these factors put by an individual it would mean that the individual what he was talking about when placing it on the table.
ADV MPSHE: Good. Tell us the factors that you put on the table that influenced the decision.
MR POTSANE: I'm not sure that I may be able to give you directly what I said as this matter happened 12 years ago but I could give you the general factors that were there. As I've already said you know, he was part of the ...[intervention]
ADV MPSHE: Alright, let us avoid generalities, did you put any factors yourself?
MR POTSANE: Ja, I'm sure I did.
ADV MPSHE: Now let's get your factors, not general factors.
MR POTSANE: Yes. Honourable members of the Commission, I'm sure that, this matter happened 12 years ago. In that situation we were a few - our unit consisted of a few members and in that situation you will have a chance to talk one way or the other you know ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Potsane, were you involved in the reconnaissance at all?
MR POTSANE: No, Your Honour.
CHAIRPERSON: Not at all?
MR POTSANE: Not at all.
CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying then that if you made a contribution it was just in the discussion, the general discussion? You didn't bring any information that you had dug up yourself or established yourself in regard to the matter?
MR POTSANE: No, Your Honour.
ADV MPSHE: Alright, let's pass that one. In your application this is what you have all mentioned and I will quote it because I'm talking to you now. Under paragraph 10(a) where it says: State Political Objective you achieved, amongst others you say
"The furtherance of the armed struggle against the apartheid state with the intention of overthrowing this state and replacing it with a democratic one"
You remember that?
MR POTSANE: Yes.
ADV MPSHE: Good. It is common cause that we all know that we do have that democratic regime at this moment.
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
ADV MPSHE: Good. The killing of Molope - let me put it this way, in your own mind do you thing we would not have achieved what we have today if Molope had not been killed?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe surely, are you implying, are you suggesting that the killing of Brigadier Molope was the key factor in the attainment of liberation?
ADV MPSHE: No, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, you can ask the question but I really don't see the point of it because they've put it there, they've stated that a general association with the unit and the role that they played, and as you've said this is just an extract. We are only dealing with one of various incidents, so to put it to him or ask him to answer to say that if just the killing, the assassination of Brigadier Molope, if it didn't take place we wouldn't have the democracy we have now is a little bit over the top I would say.
ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, I hear what the Chair says but to respond to what the Chair said, I mentioned to the applicant that under 10(a) and I quoted what he said and he said: "That is what is in his application" ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but 10(a) is an application for a whole lot of other incidents of which we are only hearing one.
ADV MPSHE: Correct Mr Chairman, but I singled it out for the purpose of ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: You can ask him.
ADV MOTATA: No, before he does Mr Chairman, if we have regard to 9(a) which refers to acts, there are actually three and we are seized with number two. You can find the Shell House incident, you find others which are supposed to be annexed to Annexure A which is not before us, so I want you, I'm not going to say you shouldn't ask the question, but the tenor of the question shouldn't revolve on the general objective which they wanted to achieve to get a democratic regime.
ADV MPSHE: Thank you, I stand corrected.
CHAIRPERSON: I think the important word in 10(a) is the furtherance of obtaining that.
ADV MPSHE: That is my point Mr Chairman, the furtherance.
CHAIRPERSON: The furtherance?
ADV MPSHE: Yes, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: I think it's unfair to ask him if he thinks that there wouldn't be this democracy if they didn't do that.
ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, ...[intervention]
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mpshe ...[intervention]
ADV MPSHE: That word is the crux of my questioning, the furtherance of obtaining the democratic regime. Perhaps to satisfy the Committee's dissatisfaction I will put it the other way around.
What was the purpose of eliminating Mr Mangope, Mr Molope, I'm sorry, he's not dead.
MR POTSANE: As I've already stated, Mr Molope had, was involved in a number of incidents which were not actually satisfactory to the general population, especially around Winterveld and Mabopane. He was known for his acts which were very brutal and as a member of MK you know with my duty, because if Mr Molope had not been eliminated who knows how many people he could have killed, maybe another 100. So our - as I was part of this or I agreed because in defence of the people.
ADV MPSHE: Alright. I will put the same question in another way. Perhaps the way I phrased it did not come to you. What did you seek to achieve by killing Mr Molope?
MR POTSANE: Well we were fighting a war of liberation and in that war of liberation there are two opposing sides, and in that other side, Mr Molope was on the other side and he clearly used his powers or abused his powers to maim, to hurt other people and in so doing, in so killing him I aimed to protect our people in order so that our people cannot suffer anymore.
ADV MPSHE: I see. If I have to hinge on the last portion of your answer, his death was merely to protect the people?
MR POTSANE: That is correct.
ADV MPSHE: Good. Did you intend to bring about any change in the then status quo by his death?
MR POTSANE: Obviously you know ...[intervention]
ADV MPSHE: Did you say: "No"?
MR POTSANE: Obviously - I didn't say "No", I'm still kind of carrying on. Obviously you know, sorry - obviously an act like that one will have certain effects, especially the kind of effects which have the lowering of the moral within the Boputhatswana Police and you'll find that even the government of Boputhatswana at that time will feel like our fight is getting closer to them and as head figures they will never feel safe anymore. Including the apartheid states you know, it affected them in that they've lost one of their foot soldiers you know, who was prepared to do dirty work for them.
MR POTSANE: Mr Potsane, I had asked you about the contents of paragraph 10(a) of your application, that is page 23, the one that I read under: Political Objective, do you have a copy there?
MR POTSANE: No, I don't have a copy.
ADV MPSHE: Do you see paragraph 10(a) right at the bottom?
MR POTSANE: Yes, I've read it.
ADV MPSHE: Just one simple question, was this paragraph put in by yourself for this particular incident?
MR POTSANE: For this particular incident?
ADV MPSHE: The Molope incident only?
MR POTSANE: In this particular - if we may have to discuss this part of the paragraph in relation to all the operations, but for this particular incident I would say all my actions was the undermining and weakening of the state.
ADV MPSHE: Yes, I see that. What I want to establish from you, you say this is relevant to this incident?
MR POTSANE: Yes.
ADV MPSHE: Thank you. That is all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe. Mr Molope, do you have any questions to ask the witness?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOLOPE: Mr Potsane, you did not kill Brigadier Molope did you?
MR POTSANE: I did not.
MR MOLOPE: Were you present when he was killed?
MR POTSANE: I was not present.
MR MOLOPE: Where you present when they discussed his killing?
MR POTSANE: Yes, I was.
MR MOLOPE: But you wanted him to be killed?
MR POTSANE: ...[no English translation]
MR MOLOPE: Did you want him to be killed?
MR POTSANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR MOLOPE: In other words, even if they gave you the responsibility to kill him, were you going to kill him?
MR POTSANE: Yes, that is so.
MR MOLOPE: Mr Potsane tell me, in South Africa as a whole people were dying but you decided to kill my father. Many people were killed in other places where there were more than
those who were killed in the Winterveld Massacre. I want to know as to why you chose to kill my father.
MR POTSANE: Our duties were that we should work around Pretoria, that is from Mamelodi, Ga-Rankuwa, Mabopane, Winterveld. That is our are in which we were deployed in so that we should work in. So Mr Molope was within our operational area. We did not go to fetch him from Mafeking to kill him here, we found him here. This incident happened in our operational zone in Pretoria.
MR MOLOPE: If he did not come to Pretoria or around Pretoria, were you not able to go to Mafeking?
MR POTSANE: Our operational area was Pretoria as I've already said. It would have been difficult for us to go and work outside our operational areas. We did not have bases, we did not have safe houses in Mafeking.
MR MOLOPE: In your discussions you knew that Mr Molope was supposed to be killed.
MR POTSANE: Yes.
MR MOLOPE: If he was not in your operational area in Mafeking you would come to him in Mabopane?
MR POTSANE: As I've already said Chairperson, our operational area was Pretoria. It would have been difficult for us to go and work outside our operational area, like in Soweto. There are other areas which are near but Mafeking is too far from our operational area, it would be difficult for us to go and work there because our bases were in Pretoria.
MR MOLOPE: After you heard that Mr Molope was killed, how did you feel?
MR POTSANE: I was satisfied that the work that we wanted to accomplish has been accomplished well. I felt satisfied.
MR MOLOPE: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOPE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Molope.
Mr Lengane, do you have any re-examination?
MR LENGANE: No re-examination Mr Chairman, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to put to the witness?
ADV BOSMAN: No, questions Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata, do you have any questions?
ADV MOTATA: I've got none, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi?
ADV SIGODI: I've got no questions Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?
MR LENGANE: Mr Chairman, may I request a short adjournment, no more than five minutes, just to discuss what we want to do next. There is an applicant and there is also a witness whom we wish to call and I just want to decide finally on the order.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly Mr van den Berg. We will take a short adjournment.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MR VAN DEN BERG: If I may call Mr Lehobye.
ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I'm not interfering with the manner in which my learned friend would like to conduct his case but Mr Chairman, the normal way is that applicants testify and the witness can come after. One can divert and do it the way my learned fried wants to do it, but we must be given reasons why we are to be exposed to this type of a procedure. There are to be reasons for such a move Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr van den Berg?
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Lehobye is here today, he is not available to-morrow. He has said that it would be possible for him to be available to-morrow but that he would have to make some quite extensive arrangements to do so and I thought as we had half an hour left today it would probably be convenient to dispose of his evidence now rather than inconvenience him to-morrow.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it seem an acceptable reason Mr van den Berg.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you please give us your full names?
MR LEHOBYE: Malosi ...[inaudible]
CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell your surname please?
MR LEHOBYE: ...[inaudible]
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection in taking the oath?
MALOSI LEHOBYE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Lehobye, you are a member of the community here at Winterveld in Mabopane, is that correct?
MR LEHOBYE: That is correct.
MR VAN DEN BERG: You were politically active in this area, firstly as a student and a student leader in the late 1970's and during the course of the 1980's, is that correct?
MR LEHOBYE: That is correct.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Could you give the Committee just a very brief personal background of your involvement politically in this area?
MR LEHOBYE: May political involvement in this area dates back to 1976 when I was a student at Randylane(?) High School and that was during the time when the late Batachana Mokwena, Tayle Mohema, Advocate Huma came to Randylane as teachers from Terflu(?). They influenced us a lot and that was during the time of Steve Biko and Randylane as a high school in Ga-Rankuwa was a hive of political activity. That is when I started my political life.
MR VAN DEN BERG: You were involved in your school SRC and later a student leader in this area?
MR LEHOBYE: That is correct.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Were you ever detained?
MR LEHOBYE: I have been detained many times.
MR VAN DEN BERG: In the process of that detention, did you ever come into contact with Brigadier, or he was then a Colonel Molope?
MR LEHOBYE: He was a Colonel yes.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Colonel Molope?
MR LEHOBYE: Yes, I did. I must explain that this a very difficult task for me to do Honourable Judge, in that I knew Tata Molope firstly as a parent to children that I grew up with, we were in the church but at the same time I knew Tata Molope as the policeman and being a student activist I was obviously on the other side of the line which made it very difficult and even now it is very difficult to be testifying in front of Tata Molope's family.
I have been involved as a student leader and I remember vividly in 1980 when I led the students at Megakasi High School. Firstly, after I was detained in 1978 I was expelled at Rondylane and I came to Pelotona in Mabopane.
The following year 1980 I went to Megakasi High School where I led a student revolt and Tata Molope being the type of a commander who would be at the forefront of his men, was actually commanding the battalion or the group of policemen who attacked us at Megakasi High School.
As a leader I approached him and tried to plead with him. He had a baton which baton he forced into my mouth and such things happened on a number of occasions when I was detained.
Like I say, he was a type of commander who would be at the forefront of his men. So I knew Tata Molope in that way. Of course I knew him as a father to children I grew up with. One of Tata Molope's kids, Fabre(?) was actually detained with me in '78 before she skipped the country, and we were in the same class.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you discuss your experiences with your fellow students, with your fellow comrades?
MR LEHOBYE: Yes, we discussed it, not only in school but even at home. It must be understood that not only did Tata Molope lead his men, when his men, when it came to student uprisings. When you hard anything that in the eyes of the then, of that government was opposing government then the police would come down heavily on our people.
Like I was saying, Tata Molope was commanding those people. He was doing his work, he was not sending people he was going there himself, making sure that when he issues out a command it is followed to the letter. That is why you heard earlier on that you would see him as a very high-ranking officer but you find him at roadblocks because he would want things to be done.
MR VAN DEN BERG: These experiences that you've related, were they unique to you or were they shared with other people?
MR LEHOBYE: They were not unique to me, it was a general, actually Tata Molope generally was known as a policeman who led the police and he was very, very - with due respect to the family, but notorious in this area.
MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?
ADV MPSHE: I have no questions Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molope?
MR MOLOPE: I'm still thinking.
What is your name?
MR LEHOBYE: Malosi Lehobye.
MR MOLOPE: Mr Lehobye, at the time when those things happened when you were a student leader, you said what Mr Molope did to you.
MR LEHOBYE: In 1980 I was a leader of the students in Megagatsi High School, we had a strike. Mr Molope came with the police. Without talking to us, we assembled at the assembly area and I was addressing those students when Mr Molope and his police arrived, then he gave an instruction that we should be beaten.
When the students were beaten I went to him then I wanted to talk to him because according to me it was not necessary for the police to interfere with the school issues because those issues were not political, because we were saying why in Megagatsi, because it's an old school, we who come from the townships we should pay building funds. We were asking for what building fund? The principal called the police and then the police started beating the students. I was doing what a leader was supposed to do. I approached him so that I should request to him that I don't see a reason why the police should do what they were doing. Then what your parent did, he pushed his baton in my mouth then he said: "Shut up because" and he knew me. It's what he did on that day.
MR MOLOPE: Mr Lehobye, the time you are referring to I was a student then.
MR LEHOBYE: I know very well.
MR MOLOPE: The way I know, when the police arrived at school they would instruct us to disperse. If we are stubborn it's then that they would start. I was one of those students who would flee. I'm surprised at what you're saying, that Mr Molope pushed his baton in your mouth. They did not even have time to talk to students, they just said we should disperse. I dispute what you are saying.
MR LEHOBYE: I agree with you my brother, that they did not have time with the students, they just said we should disperse, that's what your father did. I don't agree with you when you said they gave us time to disperse.
You and I know very well, we were students, the police said we'd give you five minutes to disperse then you know that that five minutes was not even half a minute. They did that fighting us. You're telling the truth that we were fleeing but you see I was extraordinary student, I was a leader and I therefore had a responsibility to protect my fellow students. ...[no English translation] to speak to him and I have done so on many occasions.
When the police attacked the people or when the people did not want us to march, as a leader I would go forward to negotiate with the police. I did that.
MR MOLOPE: I agree with you that that could have happened to you but at the time when the police came, when they arrived, finding that students are destroying property, it is then that they would do something. I would agree with you when you say that the situation was not normal, then it happened that the baton was in our mouth. But when you say Brigadier Molope came to you and talked with you whilst nothing was happening I don't agree.
MR LEHOBYE: We were in an assembly and I was a leader addressing the students when the police came with many vehicles. Your father trampled on the corpse on the stoep and then he gave orders. I never led a group ...[no English translation] I have never done so. We were not destroying property we were on the assembly, then we were attacked by the police.
I went to him and pleaded with him that the police should stop so that we will be able to negotiate. That is what happened on that day. I don't want you to say I don't know your father. I don’t know what is happening to you. It was difficult for me to appear before this Commission to testify on behalf of the comrades who appear here.
I'm pleading with you together with Mum and the family that apartheid divided various communities. The Sebe brothers were not able to bury one another, the other one was afraid to go and see his mother on the sick bed because of apartheid.
You, Molope's family, because of the problems of apartheid, for a long time you were isolated. ...[no English translation] that those kids who are behind me have nothing against you as people, together with your family. We were in a fight, we were in a war. It was a bad thing to have lost your father but the truth is we found ourselves in a situation of war. Two attempts were made on my life and that experience traumatised my family. Like one of the comrades would have said, it would be happy that when we go on with our lives, that's what these applicants area saying to you. The Committee will actually appreciate what we are trying to do.
Like I said earlier on it is very difficult for me to come and testify particularly because I know that family. I have been very, very close to the family you know, we worship together. It's very difficult but I really have to do it and somebody of course must do what I am doing. I thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished Mr Molope or is there anything else?
MR MOLOPE: Mr Lehobye, Mr Molope is not here today. You are saying what happened at that time. If he was here he would be able to respond but I'm talking about what was happening. I was a student during the apartheid era and I didn't like apartheid.
You should not try to tell this Committee that my father pushed a baton in your mouth because he is not present today. Many things happened I agree but you should not put it that way and expect us to just keep quiet.
I like what is happening today, the way life is today and what you are saying here today, Brigadier Molope is not here today. If he was here he would tell you that you are lying. The way you put it you are asking us to agree with you.
MR LEHOBYE: I'm sorry that Brigadier Molope is not here today. My intention here is to explain to the Committee the perception of the community, how the community looked at your father and perceived your father as a commander of this area. That is my intention. I'm very sorry that your father is not here and I'm aware of that. Even if he was here I wouldn't be arguing with him but I would be stating facts as they were.
MR MOLOPE: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOPE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lengane, do you have any re-examination?
MR LENGANE: No, I don't.
NO EXAMINATION BY MR LENGANE
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness?
ADV BOSMAN: I have not questions, thank you Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata?
ADV MOTATA: Just one or two Mr Chairman.
Mr Lehobye, did Brigadier Molope know you personally, because you have stated that you knew the family well, you attended school with some of his offspring and worshipped with his family. What I want to know, him personally, did you know each other?
MR LEHOBYE: Tata Molope knew me, yes.
ADV MOTATA: Now other than a baton thrust in your open mouth, did he ever assault you on that occasion?
MR LEHOBYE: Not on that occasion.
ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi?
ADV SIGODI: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lehobye, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
