GABUKLELWE CHRISTOPHER MOSIANE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rossouw.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman.
EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Mr Mosiane the first incident relating to the attack on the Church hall in Witbank.
MR MOSIANE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you inform the Committee at the time, where were you employed and what were your functions?
MR MOSIANE: At that time Chairperson, I was employed as an askari in C1 Section at the Police Head Quarters.
MR ROSSOUW: That would be Vlakplaas.
MR MOSIANE: Correct Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Now we've heard testimony that you were deployed in Witbank area. Who was your Commander at that time?
MR MOSIANE: It was Mr Flores.
MR ROSSOUW: And with regard to this incident, the bombing or the arson at the church hall, where did you receive your instruction from and what were those instructions?
MR MOSIANE: The instructions were from the Security Branch in Witbank but I was under Sgt Flores at that time.
MR ROSSOUW: So is it correct that nobody from the Security Branch at Witbank spoke to you personally, it was relayed to you from Capt Flores?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Now can you just tell the Committee what did Capt Flores instruct you to do?
MR MOSIANE: Flores was a Sergeant not a Captain. He informed us that there was a Church in the township and that again we should go and burn that church. I together with Nicholas Dube, we were to be taken to that particular church and that we were the people who were supposed to again burn that Church.
MR ROSSOUW: Sorry, Mr Mosiane, I don't know if the translation came through correctly, but it was translated in my ears that your instructions were to again go and burn the church, were you ever involved in a previous arson attack on this church?
INTERPRETER: He is actually saying that he was supposed to be taken by other people to that Church and again there would be other people who were supposed to be at the church, so it's a repetition of what he was saying.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman, I just wanted to make sure that we're not talking about a previous incident.
ADV SANDI: Interesting, my note is different here. I understood the interpreter to say: "I and Dube were taken to that church to burn it."
INTERPRETER: Yes.
ADV SANDI: Did you say that? Did you talk about Dube?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, I did.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Mosiane, were you involved in preparation of Russian Cocktails or petrol bombs, or surveillance of this church? Did you know where it was situated?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: And when you got the instruction, was it on the same day as when the attack was carried out?
MR MOSIANE: We received instructions on the same day of the burning of the Church.
MR ROSSOUW: Now can you explain to the Committee, you say that the people were supposed to take you and Dube to the Church. Can you tell the Committee what happened that night?
MR MOSIANE: As I've already earlier, is that we were to leave with members of the local Security Branch, that is to say black members of the Security Branch, so that they would be able to show us the target and then we should burn that target on the very same night.
MR ROSSOUW: When you arrived at the Church hall, what did you do there?
MR MOSIANE: When we arrived at that Church, we burned it immediately.
MR ROSSOUW: How did you enter - or did you burn it, set light to it from the outside, or did you enter the building?
MR MOSIANE: We set alight whilst we were inside.
MR ROSSOUW: How did you gain entry to the premises?
MR MOSIANE: We used the window Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Now inside, can you describe to the Committee what steps did you take and how did you set it alight inside?
MR MOSIANE: When we arrived inside together with Dube, we had a plastic container, a petrol plastic container, approximately 20, 25 litres, Chairperson. When we arrived inside, we found plastic chairs. We assembled the chairs. If I recall well, the floor was made of wood, that is a wooden floor. After we'd assembled the plastic chairs, we sprinkled petrol on those chairs. After that we used the kitchen to exit the Church, so therefore we made a trail of petrol to the kitchen, then we went, we left the church building with the kitchen window and from there we set the church alight, from that window.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Mosiane, did you look inside the hall if there were any people inside, or people sleeping there? Were there any people there?
MR MALAN: That's common cause Mr Rossouw, I think we can leave it.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mosiane and afterwards when you went back to your group, to whom did you report?
MR MOSIANE: We reported back to Sgt Flores.
MR ROSSOUW: Now Mr Mosiane, you are applying for amnesty in respect of arson and malicious damage to property or any other delict that might flow from your evidence and the facts that you've placed here before the Committee, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you receive any reward, other than your normal salary, any remuneration for your participation in this arson attack?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Now you've listened to the testimony of Mr Flores in respect of the political objective aimed to be achieved here. Do you confirm that? Do you agree with that?
MR MOSIANE: I do, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Then if you can have a look at page 82 of the bundle before the Committee, the portion dealing with the political objective and over on page 83.
MR MOSIANE: I do see that Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Do you confirm that?
MR MOSIANE: I do, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Mosiane, we've already heard that you received your orders from Mr Flores. Were you in a position to question those orders?
MR MOSIANE: No Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman, that's the evidence in respect of this incident. If I may continue with the next incident?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please Mr Rossouw, then we'll - hopefully we'll be able to conclude all of the matters that these applicants are applying for in one go.
MR MALAN: Just before you proceed, Nicholas Dube, Mr Mosiane, who is that?
MR MOSIANE: Nicholas Dube was one of the askaris.
MR MALAN: Is he still alive?
MR MOSIANE: I have no information as to whether he's still alive but it seems I learned that he was killed.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mosiane, I want you to turn to page 83 of the bundle, dealing with the petrol bomb attack in Nelspruit area.
MR NGOBE: Sorry, Chairman, to interrupt. I want just to confirm that 2 o'clock tomorrow afternoon will be suitable for us to proceed.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your assistance, Mr Ngobe. We will then stand the matter down until 2 o'clock tomorrow afternoon and we'll excuse you in the meantime.
MR NGOBE: Thank you Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mosiane in respect of your application for the petrol bomb attack on a vehicle and a house in Nelspruit, in the Nelspruit area, can you give the Committee an indication, at that time were you working in the Nelspruit area?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, Chairperson, we were deployed around Nelspruit area.
MR ROSSOUW: And you were part of a group. Who was the Commander of that group?
MR MOSIANE: In the application as I've already testified, the Senior Commander here was Capt David Baker.
MR ROSSOUW: Now you say in your application that the instructions to petrol bomb this house of the Trade Unionists came from the Nelspruit Security Police. Again, were you personally instructed by personnel from the Security Branch or did you receive it through Capt Baker?
MR MOSIANE: As a member of Vlakplaas, we received our instructions from our Commanders who were immediate Commander at that time, therefore in this case I received instructions from Capt Baker.
MR ROSSOUW: And you say that your instructions were quite clear that you were to gut the car, to totally burn it out, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you tell the Committee how did you carry out the operation and who was involved?
MR MOSIANE: In this operation we were instructed that a certain person who is owning a green Nissan Langley and the instruction was that if we find that car at a particular place, we should burn that car and when we arrived at a particular place, we did not find that green Nissan Langley. We returned to Capt Baker and reported back to him that the car is not present there, but Paul Van Dyk who was the second in command of that unit, informed Baker that if the car is not present, therefore the house should be burned and then Capt Baker agreed with him and we started to go back and burn the house. I and Nicholas Dube returned and executed that order.
MR ROSSOUW: Who provided you with the means to carry out the order, the petrol bombs?
MR MOSIANE: We got those petrol bombs from Nelspruit.
MR ROSSOUW: Would that be the Nelspruit Security Branch?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Now can you describe to the Committee, what happened when you then attacked the house?
MR MALAN: Just before you proceed for clarity in my mind. Did you have the petrol bombs with you in order to, as you say, to gut the car? Were they intended for the car originally?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, Chairperson, we had them in our possession.
MR MALAN: So you didn't go back to Head Quarters and then came back to the house again? Thank you. You may proceed Mr Rossouw.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mosiane, then in your amnesty application you say that you went to the house and you petrol bombed it. Did you determine beforehand if there were people inside the house?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson, we did not.
MR ROSSOUW: And from your actions afterwards, were you able to say whether there were people in the house?
MR MOSIANE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: What did you hear?
MR MOSIANE: There were people inside because whilst the house was burning, I heard people screaming and my observations were that they were female.
MR ROSSOUW: Afterwards, did you report that to Capt Baker or Lieut Paul van Dyk?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson, we did.
MR ROSSOUW: Now Mr Mosiane, you are applying for your participation in this incident, arson, malicious damage to property and then also the attempted murder of the inhabitants of this house, as well as any delict flowing from your evidence here, the facts that you've placed before the Committee, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you receive any reward for your participation in this petrol bomb attack, other than your normal salary?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you know this Trade Unionist and did you in any instance act in personal malice towards this person?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: And you've already testified where you got your instructions from. Now if you can have a look at page 85 of the application, with respect of the political objectives to be achieved here, do you confirm that?
MR MOSIANE: I do, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Then just one formal aspect, Mr Mosiane. You've submitted a written submission as an attachment to your amnesty application. It's contained on page 52 to 70, do you confirm that as well?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Rossouw.
MR MALAN: Mr Rossouw, just before you - you've put it to the applicant and he confirmed that he was applying for an attempted murder. There's no evidence that I heard that he was even aware of people or that he considered and decided to continue disregarding the possible presence of individuals in the house at the time of the bombing. The evidence as I heard it, was that they assumed the house to be empty.
MR ROSSOUW: Sorry Mr Chairman, I didn't read the evidence as such. Because the car was not there the instructions were and because the Trade Unionist himself was not found there, Mr Chairman, the instructions were then to attack the house. Mr Chairman, under those circumstances it would be reasonable to foresee that there might be other people inside, not necessarily the Trade Unionist.
MR MALAN: Mr Rossouw, the test is not whether it's reasonable, but whether he did foresee the possibility and continued regardless. Maybe I should put it to you. Mr Mosiane, did you consider the possible presence of individuals in that house when you bombed it?
MR MOSIANE: Chairperson, before we gutted the house, I did not have the perception that there would be people inside the house. I only realised when the house was on fire and when I heard people screaming inside that house.
MR MALAN: Now do you know whether anybody was injured there?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Did you see anybody running from the house?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Why are you so sure that the screaming came from inside the house? Couldn't it have been from the back of the house, from a neighbour?
MR MOSIANE: Because I was not far from the house and I could hear that the screaming was from that house which was on fire.
MR MALAN: And you have no information whether anybody was injured?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson, I have no information.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
ADV SANDI: Just tell us, where exactly is this house? You say in Mpumalanga in the district of Nelspruit. Where exactly is this?
MR MOSIANE: I'm unable to give you that information.
ADV SANDI: Do you know the name of the township?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson, I do not know.
ADV SANDI: I further notice in your application at page 83 you say: "I cannot recall his name", meaning the Trade Unionist. Do you mean at that time you knew his name, but you've now forgotten?
MR MOSIANE: At the time when I was preparing my application, I did not know his identity.
ADV SANDI: No, I'm talking about the time when you carried out this attack on this house. Did you know the name of the Trade Unionist whose house you were attacking?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson, I did not know his name.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
MR MALAN: Can you describe the house to us? What did the house look like?
MR MOSIANE: It's not a township house, but a house built in a tribal trust. It's a mud house with corrugated irons.
MR MALAN: Was it a single-roomed house?
MR MOSIANE: It was not a one-roomed house Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Can you describe it for us? How big was the house?
MR MOSIANE: Approximately 4 to 5 rooms, Chairperson.
MR MALAN: And do you know into which room you threw the bombs?
MR MOSIANE: We threw the petrol bombs on the front rooms.
MR MALAN: Into more than one room?
MR MOSIANE: I recall that I saw two windows and a door.
MR MALAN: Did you put a bomb through both of the windows?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
ADV SANDI: If you say this house consisted of four to five rooms, why then did you not think that there might be some people inside there who stayed with the Trade Unionist?
MR MOSIANE: I said I did not think there were not people in that house, I said there were people in that house that when the house caught fire I heard people screaming from inside.
ADV SANDI: But before the time you threw the petrol bombs there, what did you think? I thought you said you didn't think there were people who stayed with the Trade Unionist.
MR MOSIANE: Before we threw the petrol bombs, you would understand that it was at dawn and people were asleep, therefore we would not be able, because it was dark, we would not be able to observe whether there are people or there are no people.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
MR MALAN: Mr Mosiane, if I understood you correctly, you responded to a question that I put to you that you did not think that there were people in the house when you threw the bombs. You did not think that there were people in the house. Now which is correct, or is that the situation?
MR MOSIANE: It is possible that before we threw the bombs, I thought there were no people.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Coleridge, any questions?
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE: Mr Mosiane, I want to take you back to the Witbank Church incident. With whom was Dube stationed? Where was he? Was he with Vlakplaas, or what?
MR MALAN: Yes, he did say he was an askari with Vlakplaas.
MS COLERIDGE: I'm indebted to you, Mr Malan. You said that there was petrol in a plastic bag. Just explain that to me. You had a petrol plastic container, 25 litres. Is that all you had when you went in to burn the hall?
MR MOSIANE: When we attacked the Church, we used the petrol from a plastic container, a black plastic container.
MS COLERIDGE: And so there were no petrol bombs involved, that you were involved with, when you set the hall alight. Can you explain that to us?
MR MOSIANE: We did not use petrol bombs, we only used petrol.
MS COLERIDGE: Did other members throw any petrol bombs into the hall at any stage?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson.
MS COLERIDGE: And who did you get the container from?
MR MOSIANE: We took it from the car boot from the car we used to travel.
MS COLERIDGE: But the person who gave you those litres of petrol, who gave it to you, which person?
MR MOSIANE: Members of the Witbank Security Branch gave us the petrol.
MS COLERIDGE: Did Mr Flores give you the petrol at any stage?
MR MOSIANE: I'm not able to recall, Chairperson.
MS COLERIDGE: Why I'm asking you this, is because Mr Flores' evidence was that petrol bombs were used in the attack and obviously the petrol bombs and the litres of petrol, it's two different substances, am I right?
MR MOSIANE: Flores was not present when we were actually attacking the Church hall and I know that we used petrol to do that.
ADV SANDI: Were the windows open when you came there, when you came to the Church Hall, were the windows open?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson, the windows were not open.
ADV SANDI: I assume that you broke them. Did you break the windows? I didn't hear you talking about breaking windows. I thought maybe they were open when you came there.
MR MOSIANE: We broke the window and then we used that as an exit and entry.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
MS COLERIDGE: And after the incident, who did you report back to?
MR MOSIANE: I reported back to Sgt Flores.
MS COLERIDGE: And where was Mr Flores when this incident occurred, when you went into the building?
MR MOSIANE: Flores was never somewhere near the Church whilst we were attacking the Church.
MS COLERIDGE: And then I want to go to the next incident ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Just before you do, Mr Flores gave evidence, Mr Mosiane, that they were about two blocks away, if I remember correctly. Could that be?
MR MOSIANE: I did not see him, Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Yes, but you made a statement that he was nowhere near the Church, in response to a question by Ms Coleridge. Now I'm simply putting it to you, he gave evidence that he was near the Church. He was indeed near the Church. He was two blocks away. Could that be?
MR MOSIANE: That is what he is saying, Chairperson, I would not dispute that.
MR MALAN: Thank you, Ms Coleridge.
MS COLERIDGE: The next incident, the Nelspruit incident, did you get - you said that the Trade Unionist had a Langley car, did you get a registration number for the car when you received your instructions?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson, we did not have the car registration number. We were only given the car description that it is a green Nissan Langley, we were not given the car registration.
MS COLERIDGE: And when you went to go and gut the car, who was with you at that stage?
MR MOSIANE: I was with Nicholas Dube, Chairperson.
MS COLERIDGE: And when you went to the house, did you have an address for the house which you had to attack?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson, we did not.
MS COLERIDGE: So how did you know which house to attack, if you never had any details regarding the house?
MR MOSIANE: We were accompanied by Nelspruit Security Branch Members because they knew the area. We went with them and then planted out that house which we were supposed to attack.
MS COLERIDGE: And did they tell you that that was the Trade Unionist's house?
MR MOSIANE: The members of the Nelspruit Security Branch informed us that - gave us that information.
MS COLERIDGE: And when you went to go and gut the car, were any of Nelspruit Security Branch members with you?
MR MOSIANE: They stayed behind in the car whilst we were going to attack that house.
MS COLERIDGE: Yes, but I'm referring to the first time you went. You first went to go and look to see if you could find the car. Was any of the Nelspruit Security Branch members with you at the time? I know you said Mr Dube was with you, but were the other members with as well?
MR MOSIANE: I now understand. Initially we were supposed to go there and burn the car. The decision to burn the house was made on the spot once we realised that the car was not there. After we went there for the first time and reported to them that the car is not there, then they gave us the information that we should go back and burn the house.
MR MALAN: Ms Coleridge, it's dealt with in paragraph 2, at the bottom of 83. They were transported in the kombi. Everybody was in the kombi including Nofomela, Dube and some Black Security Policemen. They left from the kombi to gut the car. The car wasn't there. They returned to the kombi and they were then told to burn the house.
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Mr Malan. I just - just on his evidence, I was just - he was just not being very clear as to who was with him at the time, but obviously, probably over time-period his memory's not that good. And then just when you went to the house, were there any lights on in the house when you attacked the house?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson.
MS COLERIDGE: And Mr Nofomela’s role, what was his role in the operation?
MR MOSIANE: Nofomela was a driver whilst we were going to execute this operation.
MS COLERIDGE: Did you see the house burning?
MR MOSIANE: I did, Chairperson.
MS COLERIDGE: And then to petrol bomb the house, where did you get the petrol bombs from, who gave it to you?
MR MOSIANE: We came with them from Nelspruit.
MS COLERIDGE: Did you make the petrol bombs yourself, or did someone else make it?
MR MOSIANE: I'm not able to recall Chairperson.
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Coleridge. Yes, Adv Sandi.
ADV SANDI: Are you able to remember the date of the occurrence of this incident?
MR MOSIANE: No, Chairperson.
ADV SANDI: The first incident which occurred at that park, we were told it was on the 21st May 1988, the attack on this house at Nelspruit, would that have been before that Church incident, or after?
MR MOSIANE: We started with the house and the operation on the ...(indistinct) was the second one.
ADV SANDI: This must have been in 1988. Both incidents happened in 1988?
MR MOSIANE: I would not dispute that Chairperson, if you say so.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius, have you got any questions?
MR CORNELIUS: No thank you, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Has the Panel got anything else before Mr Rossouw re-examines.
ADV SANDI: Nothing from me Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rossouw.
MR ROSSOUW: I won't re-examine Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mosiane, thank you. You're excused.
MR MOSIANE: Thank you Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, before we go, Mr Botha before we go to Mr Snyders, we'll take a short adjournment just to allow everybody to refresh themselves.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
