ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Who is next?
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, the next applicant is Mr Danny Radebe. His application is on page 135.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, won't you stand please. Are your full names Danny Radebe?
DANNY RADEBE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Mr Sibeko?
EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Radebe, you are an applicant in this matter applying for amnesty, is that correct?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Is it correct that you were a member of the Self Defence Unit for Lusaka-A? Is that correct?
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is so.
MR SIBEKO: When did you join the Self Defence Unit?
MR RADEBE: It was in 1993.
MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander at the time you joined the Self Defence Unit?
MR RADEBE: It was Mosa Msimango.
MR SIBEKO: Have you heard the evidence of Mr Patrick Radebe and Lucky Soko inasfar as it relates to the death of Gregory Mkwanazi and Mbuso?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Did you understand what they said?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in that activity?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I was there.
MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about your involvement from the beginning up to the end of this incident?
MR RADEBE: I was at Lucky's place, it was in the evening. When I was still sitting there Mbuso came and he knocked at the door and Lucky asked who was at the door, Mbuso did not respond.
Lucky asked for the second time and then Mbuso said "Come out with your axe". Lucky was a person who used to joke. He took his axe and he went to open the door. After he had opened the door, Mbuso shot him. I was looking at him. We were sitting there with Lucky's family. That is what I know.
MR SIBEKO: Now when you talk about Lucky, is he one and the same person as Gregory Mkwanazi?
MR RADEBE: Yes, he is the same person.
MR SIBEKO: You say you were at Gregory's place, where exactly in the house were you sitting and who else was there?
MR RADEBE: I was in the kitchen with his family.
MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to state exactly who in the family of the deceased was there, because by family you can mean quite a large number of people. Are you in a position to remember exactly who was there?
MR RADEBE: What family are you talking about, Lucky's family? A person - I've told you that it was his family, all the members of his family, even the children were there and the children saw everything that took place that day.
MR SIBEKO: Was Lucky's father present?
MR RADEBE: No.
MR SIBEKO: Was Lucky's mother present?
MR RADEBE: Yes, she was there.
CHAIRPERSON: If Lucky had a brother, was his brother there?
MR RADEBE: Yes, he was there.
MR SIBEKO: Who else was there?
MR RADEBE: It was myself who was a person from outside but the majority of the people there were Lucky's family.
MR SIBEKO: Alright. How do you that the person who was knocking at the door was Mbuso? Did he mention his name or did you see him?
MR RADEBE: I saw him.
MR SIBEKO: When the person knocked at the door just before the incident occurred, was it during the day or was it at night, and if it was at night, could you see the person who was outside, was there a light that could enable you to see that this is so and so?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I could see because in Lucky's kitchen there was a light outside and so you could see a person who was standing outside.
MR SIBEKO: Now that the light was on, will I be correct to say that it was at night when he, it was in the evening when he came to Lucky's place, that is when Mbuso came to Lucky's place?
MR RADEBE: Yes, it was in the evening.
MR SIBEKO: Now, Mbuso knocked at the door, a few words were exchanged, that is who is the person is knocking and then ultimately Lucky ended up opening up the door. Was there any other thing that was said before the shooting started, after the door was already opened?
MR RADEBE: No, nothing else was said. When he opened the door there was a shot and he ran away, he ran to next door and he came back as a person who was surprised, a person who did not know what was happening.
MR SIBEKO: When exactly did he come back and appear as if he is surprised as to what had occurred?
MR RADEBE: Soon after the incident. He came back on the very same night.
ADV GCABASHE: Just for absolute clarity, you're saying Mbuso came back?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Did Mbuso ...(intervention)
ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Sibeko.
Did Mbuso say anything whilst he was shooting Lucky?
MR RADEBE: No, he said nothing. I did not hear him saying anything, I just heard the shot.
ADV SANDI: Did Lucky try to throw a blow with the axe he was carrying, on Mbuso?
MR RADEBE: No.
MR SIBEKO: Now when he came back after the incident, as you say he appeared as if he was surprised, did he say anything? When he came back for the second time as you say he was surprised ...(end of tape)
MR RADEBE: ...(inaudible) I found him sitting there, sitting in the kitchen with his hands on his head.
MR SIBEKO: Now let me get you clear here. When Mbuso knocked at the door, the door was opened, when he fired you were in the kitchen. When everything occurred you were still in the kitchen, is that correct?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Was there a time after that incident when you left the kitchen or the house at all?
MR RADEBE: After this incident I went home to fetch the car so that we could take Lucky to the hospital. When I came I saw him sitting there in the kitchen, that is Mbuso. I don't know what he said, if had said anything because I just got in there and he was quiet.
MR SIBEKO: Did you ask any question in connection with the said incident? In fact did you ask him why did he do that?
MR RADEBE: No, I did not ask because I was also very scared, my heart was beating very hard. I couldn't even talk because that incident was actually unexpected.
ADV SANDI: Did anyone of the people who were there in the house ask Mbuso why he had shot Lucky?
MR RADEBE: I don't know but when I came they were quiet, all of them were quiet in the house.
ADV SANDI: Are you able to say how many times Mbuso opened fire on Lucky?
MR RADEBE: Only once, in the ear.
MR SIBEKO: You say you went to fetch the vehicle so that you could take him to the hospital, did you actually take Lucky to the hospital?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I took him to the hospital.
MR SIBEKO: What happened thereafter? Did you come back with him or did you leave him at the hospital and what happened thereafter? What did you do thereafter?
MR RADEBE: We left him there at the hospital. We were just taking him there because he was dead already. We left him there at the hospital and we came back.
MR SIBEKO: Did you spend the night at Lucky's place, the very same evening after the incident took place or did you go home, or any other place?
MR RADEBE: I went home.
MR SIBEKO: The following morning, were you present when Mbuso came to apologise to the family of the deceased? That is the following morning after the incident that occurred.
MR RADEBE: No, I was not present.
MR SIBEKO: Were you present at the time Patrick and Lucky Soko took Mbuso to the office at Mkwaie Street?
MR RADEBE: No, I was not there.
MR SIBEKO: Were you part of the group that went to fetch Mbuso from the offices to the circle at Xhaba Street?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I was there.
MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about the role or your active role at the time when he was, when Mbuso was fetched from the offices until he was executed?
MR RADEBE: When Mbuso was about to be fetched I was fetched at my home with Stick's kombi. It was myself and Langa, Dingaan. We went to fetch Mbuso. I had a firearm, an AK47. We took Mbuso from Mkwaie Street. He was already assaulted when we went to Mkwaie, when we arrived there.
I wanted to shoot him there at Mkwaie but the other people said I mustn't kill him there we must take him far away to kill him. Mbuso requested us not to kill him far away from his home so as to make it easier for his family to get his dead body. We took him to Xhaba Street. At least it was nearer to his home. We took him out of the kombi. I shot him. He died.
MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to say or to tell us about the number of times you shot at him?
MR RADEBE: Seven bullets, I shot seven times with the AK47.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
CHAIRPERSON: Is your client in a position to proceed or does he need a brief adjournment?
MR SIBEKO: That's what I wanted to find out, Mr Chairman.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, I would request that we adjourn a while for this applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Are we in a position to proceed?
MR SIBEKO: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, I'm just reminding you you are still under oath.
DANNY RADEBE: (still under oath)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko?
EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: (Continued) Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Now Mr Radebe, you said you spent about seven bullets on Mr Mbuso Khambule(?), is that correct?
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.
MR SIBEKO: At the time you shot at him, what was your intention?
MR RADEBE: My intention was to kill him because he had killed.
MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that it was mostly because the policy or the slogan that the killer must be killed when you decided to kill him?
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us as to what happened to the body of Mbuso after you had fired at him?
MR RADEBE: Truly speaking I don't know anything about that because after shooting him I ran away. I don't know what happened to his body.
MR SIBEKO: After you shot at him were you in a position to assess whether he was still alive just before you left or was he already dead?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I could see that he was dead. The last bullet penetrated his head and I was certain thereafter that he was dead.
MR SIBEKO: I'm under the impression that you are in a position to remember as to the exact parts of his body, as to which parts of his body were affected. Are you in a position to tell us, besides the last bullet that you've just referred to, exactly where in the body you shot at him?
ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Sibeko. Do you think that detail is necessary? I'm asking this question because last time when we adjourned he seemed to have been very much emotionally affected by this. Maybe it could do more harm to him emotionally if one has to go through all those details as to which part of the body was hit by which bullet. I don't know.
MR SIBEKO: I'll withdraw that question.
Now the AK47 that you were using, what happened to it?
MR RADEBE: I took back to Mtjale Street because it belonged to the Mtjale Street people.
MR SIBEKO: Other than this incident, were you involved in any other incidents of violence?
MR RADEBE: No. I used to be a taxi driver but after work I would go on patrolling with the other people.
MR SIBEKO: During your patrol did you confiscate any weapon from anybody?
MR RADEBE: No.
MR SIBEKO: So there are no other incidents wherein you were involved, is that correct?
MR RADEBE: No other incidents.
MR SIBEKO: Is it correct that you are applying for amnesty firstly, because you were the one who shot at Mbuso and then secondly, of having possessed that AK47 at the time, which was unlawful?
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is what I am applying for amnesty for.
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko. Questions, Advocate Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
ADV GCABASHE: Mr Radebe, just assist me with one or two matters. The night you were sitting in the kitchen, the night Lucky was killed, you went home to fetch a vehicle to get Lucky to the hospital. When you came back you found Mbuso sitting in the kitchen, is that correct so far?
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Did you confront Mbuso at all at that point?
MR RADEBE: No, I did not talk to him.
ADV GCABASHE: Was there a particular reason for not asking him why he had done that, at that point?
MR RADEBE: I said I was afraid, I couldn't even talk properly because my heart was beating so hard.
ADV GCABASHE: But you had definitely seen him at the door and you know that positively he is the one who shot Lucky?
MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Radebe. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that both Mbuso and Lucky were in the same unit, Self Defence Unit with you?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And then it appears to be obvious that they must have been known to each other, Lucky knew who Mbuso was and Mbuso knew who Lucky was?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Was there any problems between the two of them that you were aware of?
MR RADEBE: No, I don't know anything about that.
CHAIRPERSON: What kind of firearm did Mbuso use in this incident to shoot Lucky with?
MR RADEBE: It was an AK47.
CHAIRPERSON: Now from what you could observe, did Mbuso appear to be normal on this incident or did you detect anything abnormal about his behaviour apart from now shooting?
MR RADEBE: He was normal.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any clue why Mbuso shot Lucky?
MR RADEBE: No, I don't have a clue.
CHAIRPERSON: Within the unit, have you ever had other problems with Mbuso before this incident, this shooting incident?
MR RADEBE: No, there were no problems.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko, re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: There's one aspect, Mr Chairman.
Mr Radebe, Mr Patrick Radebe told us about the threats or harassment made by one, Ntlantla, who happens to be Mbuso's brother, have you experienced the same from the said Ntlantla?
MR RADEBE: Yes.
MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us exactly what happened between yourself and Ntlantla when such threats or harassments were made?
MR RADEBE: When Ntlantla - Ntlantla used to say a lot of things when he sees me. He used to tell me that he will never rest until I am dead. Every time he used to utter such things. Even now I'm not free wherever I go because of him. I would request you here to give me a solution, tell me what to do about this situation because this has been happening for some time now.
MR SIBEKO: Up to this stage you haven't done anything to him, is that correct?
MR RADEBE: Will you please repeat your question?
MR SIBEKO: Up to this stage or up to today you haven't done anything to Ntlantla, is that correct?
MR RADEBE: Yes, I have done nothing to him.
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko.
Mr Radebe, was Mbuso a comrade?
MR RADEBE: Yes, he was a comrade.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, thank you for testifying, you are excused from further attendance, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
