CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, we are about to start. Just for the record, today is Wednesday, the 2nd of December 1998. It is a continuation of the hearing of the amnesty applications in respect of the Thokoza Self Defence Unit members.
The presiding panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record and the appearances are roughly the same. We will indicate when the representatives for the applicants change as we go along.
The first matter on the roll this morning is that of Mr Arthur Bongani Ndaba. It's amnesty application AM 7050/97. It relates to the Lusaka-B applications and it appears at page 16 of that bundle.
For the record, it's Ms Nhlayisi who is appearing for the applicants this morning.
MS NHLAYISI: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Mr Ndaba, can you hear?
MR NDABA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Please stand and give us your full names for the record.
ARTHUR BONGANI NDABA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down.
EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Ndaba, you are the applicant. You have applied for amnesty in these proceedings, is that correct?
MR NDABA: That is correct.
MS NHLAYISI: At some stage you were a member of the SDUs, that is the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-B, Thokoza, is that correct?
MR NDABA: That is correct.
MS NHLAYISI: You were involved in some incidents of violence, do you care to tell this forum about those incidents where you were involved?
MR NDABA: We went to Polla Park together with Makasonke to buy some ammunition. This man was known to Makasonke ...(intervention)
ADV GCABASHE: Could you slow down because we are writing.
MR NDABA: We went to Polla Part, that is myself and Makasonke, to buy some arms or guns. This man was known to Makasonke. We wanted to purchase two AK47s. This man quoted us a sum of R3000,00 for two AKs. We said that we do not have that kind of money and we promised to come back and see him.
We went back the next day with a sum of R2000,00. He duly gave us the two AK47s. And the next ...(intervention)
ADV GCABASHE: Before you proceed, just roughly when would this have been? If you can't remember the month, at least give us the year.
MR NDABA: It was during the year 1993, though I don't remember the month.
MS NHLAYISI: Makasonke, the person you're mentioning that you went to Polla Park with, he was your commander, is that correct?
MR NDABA: That is correct.
MS NHLAYISI: Where did you get this money to go and buy these two AK47s from?
MR NDABA: Makasonke said he had earlier collected the money from the community members.
MS NHLAYISI: You knew the purpose of going to buy those firearms, as to what they were going to be used for, is that correct?
MR NDABA: Yes, that is correct.
MS NHLAYISI: Except the two AK47s that you bought from Thokoza, from Polla Park, pardon, is there anything else that you bought on that particular visit to Polla Park?
MR NDABA: Yes, we did.
MS NHLAYISI: Could you mention what it was?
MR NDABA: We also bought ammunition, some bullets, about 60 of them, that is AK47 bullets.
MS NHLAYISI: How many times did you visit this place at Polla Park with the purpose of going to get arms and ammunition?
MR NDABA: We went there about three times.
MS NHLAYISI: What happened to those AK47s that you bought from Polla Park?
MR NDABA: They were taken by Makasonke and he said that he would report to me after quite some time as to what happened to the AK47s, but he never came back to report as to what became of the AK47s.
MS NHLAYISI: The purpose of going to get arms and ammunition from Polla Park, did you know what they were going to be used for?
MR NDABA: Yes, he did tell me the purpose.
MS NHLAYISI: Could you explain briefly what they were going to be used for?
MR NDABA: To protect members of the community from enemies.
MS NHLAYISI: So because Makasonke was the commander in your area, you said he took those arms, you suppose he gave them to your fellow comrades.
MR NDABA: Yes, that is so.
MS NHLAYISI: Is there any other incident wherein you were involved except this one of buying arms and ammunition?
MR NDABA: No.
MS NHLAYISI: So you are here before this forum today, you want amnesty for your participation for dealing in illegal arms, is that correct?
MR NDABA: That is correct.
MS NHLAYISI: The person from whom you bought firearms, do you know his name?
MR NDABA: No, I do not know his name.
MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are there any questions, Advocate Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the Panel?
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.
Mr Ndaba, you were not involved in the use of those arms, were you?
MR NDABA: No.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
ADV GCABASHE: Mr Ndaba, just in terms of your other participation in the SDU structure, meetings about where these firearms might be used, discussions on how to protect the community, strategising on where you were going to do certain things as SDU members, did you participate in any of that activity?
MR NDABA: No, I never participated.
ADV GCABASHE: Patrols in the community, did you participate in any of those activities?
MR NDABA: No, I never participated.
ADV GCABASHE: Anything related to housing, which is another activity that we've heard about at these hearings, assisting people to relocate, did you have anything to do with that at all?
MR NDABA: I had absolutely nothing to do with that.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nbaba, I just want pick up on the line of questions that Advocate Gcabashe has just touched upon, which is important for our purposes and also for the requirement that an applicant has to make a full disclosure.
Now when did you join this Self Defence Unit?
MR NDABA: During 1993, in January. The month was January 1993.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you been living in Lusaka-A section in Thokoza, sorry, B, section B of Lusaka and Thokoza for some time prior to 1993?
MR NDABA: I was born and bred there in Lusaka-B.
CHAIRPERSON: We have heard evidence that there was trouble in Thokoza ever since approximately 1990, in the sense of a conflict or a fight involving people who apparently supported the Inkatha Freedom Party and who were mainly resident in the hostels in and around Thokoza and members of the community in Thokoza, predominantly members or supporters of the African National Congress. Now what do you know about that situation, and I'm speaking from the beginning of the conflict. Have you been involved in any of this at all?
MR NDABA: No, I was never involved.
CHAIRPERSON: You were about 20 years of age in 1990, would that be correct?
MR NDABA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: What were you doing in 1990?
MR NDABA: I was sick.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you in hospital or were you at home?
MR NDABA: I was at home.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that for the whole of 1990 or for the better part of 1990?
MR NDABA: I was ill until 1992.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it after you had recovered that you then joined the Self Defence Unit in Lusaka-B?
MR NDABA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that you joined the SDU?
MR NDABA: I joined voluntarily, I went there myself.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and what motivated you to join the SDU?
MR NDABA: We were being attacked by IFP members from the hostel. At that stage I was scared to leave my place or flee the area so I decided to join the rest of the members or most of the members of the community in forming a Self Defence Unit.
CHAIRPERSON: So did you decide that you have to fight back against these attacks?
MR NDABA: Yes, it was my own decision and my own initiative.
CHAIRPERSON: And you decided that the best way of fighting back was to arm yourselves with firearms and for you personally to join the structure that was so armed and was able to fight back, would that be correct?
MR NDABA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you receive any training in handling firearms?
MR NDABA: No, I received no training.
CHAIRPERSON: The AK47 rifles, there were two that you bought from this person in Polla Park, is that right?
MR NDABA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Where were those firearms kept?
MR NDABA: Makasonke took them and said he was going to take them to Mr Ngwenya's place. Yes, Mr Ngwenya's place.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see those firearms subsequent to having bought them, in the possession of your fellow members of the SDU?
MR NDABA: The last time that I saw these guns was when Makasonke took them. I never saw them again.
CHAIRPERSON: Did your SDU engage in patrolling or in fighting with the IFP people?
MR NDABA: Yes, other members of the SDU were involved in some patrols.
CHAIRPERSON: And in fights?
MR NDABA: Yes, they were involved in patrols as well as protecting the other members of the community.
CHAIRPERSON: And did they use those AK47 rifles in these fights?
MR NDABA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And a question that has been asked of many of the other applicants in these proceedings and which are important, do you accept that these AK47 rifles would in all probability been used to injure and to kill people in these fights?
MR NDABA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And we assume that you like many other members of the SDU who appeared before us, are not able to identify any particular victim of these fights?
MR NDABA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: You supported your SDU in what they had been doing, is that correct?
MR NDABA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And I think it would be fair to say from what you had told us, that you were aware of most of the activities that your SDU engaged in?
MR NDABA: Could you repeat your question please?
CHAIRPERSON: We assume that from what you had told us, that you were aware of most of the activities that your SDU engaged in.
MR NDABA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Now just give us a rough idea, you joined in 1993, the SDU activities continued for the better part of that year according to the evidence that was led before us, and it could have extended into 1994, fairly close up to the elections, now what were you doing as a member of the SDU in that entire period?
MR NDABA: I was looking after my grandmother because I was living with my grandmother who was quite old and frail, so I had to look after her most of the time.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now apart from your personal commitments, I'm speaking entirely about your position as a member of that SDU, we want some idea as to what you were doing, were you attending discussions, what were you doing? Just give us an idea.
MR NDABA: The only thing that I was involved in was the purchase of guns. That is the only instance in which I was involved, the purchase of guns, arms and ammunition.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, I know you have spoken about that, that specific incident, I'm talking more broadly than that. You were a member of that SDU for about a year and a little bit more, give us an idea as to what you were doing. You must have contact with your fellow SDU members, you knew the commander, Makasonke, you knew him well because you seemed to accompany him to Polla Park on a very important mission. What sort of - what were you doing as an SDU member? We know you didn't go and fight, you've already told us all that.
MR NDABA: No, I was never involved in any other thing besides the one that I've already mentioned.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we'll move on. You knew that the AK47s were unlicensed. I think you've told that already. And we assume you knew that in spite of everything else, the shooting and the possible killing and injuring of people and so on, all of that was unlawful activities, not so?
MR NDABA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm just trying to understand exactly the ambit of your application to us. You have already covered the AK47s, but would we understand your application correctly if we were to conclude that what you are asking really is for amnesty to be granted to you for whatever you would be liable for because of the activities of the SDU of which you were a member?
MR NDABA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ndaba. Ms Nhlayisi?
MS NHLAYISI: No re-examination, Mr Chair, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Ndaba, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
