Amnesty Hearings

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, sir, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Mr Mbhele, where is your home?

MR MBHELE: It's in Webbstown.

MR LAX: Sorry, can you just repeat the answer, we couldn't hear?

MR MBHELE: Webbstown.

MR MAPOMA: When actually did you arrive at the Mazabegwene area?

MR MBHELE: In 1993.

MR MAPOMA: And the Mazabegwene and the Mbovini area are nearby each other, is that correct?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's true.

MR MAPOMA: And when you arrived there, you did not know the residents of that area, is that correct?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you relied on the people around you in describing who is whom and what his or her political affiliation was, is that right?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's very true.

MR MAPOMA: You are not in a position to contest that the Mbovini area was predominantly an IFP stronghold, is that correct?

MR MBHELE: It was IFP upon our arrival, but before then it was ANC area.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact the chief, Chief Xolisa, was also an IFP member, is that correct?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in Mazabegwene area, Chief Dlamini was also an IFP member, is that correct?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: The Mazabegwene area was also an IFP stronghold, is that correct?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now, this Themza boy ...(intervention).

INTERPRETER: Which boy?

MR MAPOMA: The Themza, the Themza boy whom you instructed that he must be fetched, why did you instruct that he must be fetched from his place?

MR MBHELE: It was not his place.

MR MAPOMA: Where was he fetched from?

MR MBHELE: From Themza's house where Mbanbu girl, Mbanbu girl was married to somebody from that home, Themza's home.

MR MAPOMA: And was he not residing there?

MR MBHELE: No, he was not staying there, he just came to monitor the situation as to how we were camping in the area.

MR MAPOMA: Where was he from?

MR MBHELE: He was from Hopewell, from the ANC stronghold.

MR MAPOMA: Where did you get that?

MR MBHELE: I gathered that from some who were coming from Hopewell and who have been assaulted by ANC people and had to leave the area and fled.

MR MAPOMA: Who are those people?

MR MBHELE: I am not in a position to furnish you with their names, I've forgotten their names.

MR MAPOMA: All of them?

MR MBHELE: The one that I remember is Hlushane, Hlushai, his name, that is.

MR MAPOMA: Is that Hlushai Dlamini?

MR MBHELE: Very well.

MR MAPOMA: Was he not a Mbovini resident?

MR MBHELE: No, he was never residing at Mbovini, he stayed in Joliverte.

MR MAPOMA: And when actually did he inform you about this boy?

MR MBHELE: Around the time when he was telling me that there is a certain boy who has been involved in the shooting at Hopewell, and the boy is around Themza's house.

MR MAPOMA: And where were you at the time?

MR MBHELE: I was at Chief Dlamini's house in Mazabegwene.

MR MAPOMA: And he informed you on that day for the first time about this boy?

MR MBHELE: That's very true.

MR MAPOMA: And how many people were there?

MR MBHELE: I will not be able to give you a rough estimation of the number, because we were quite a big number, plus the community members as well had gathered there.

MR MAPOMA: And out of that big number, you remember only Hlushai Dlamini?

MR MBHELE: The reason why is because I knew him prior to that, because we would associate together and have some social times together, so I knew him prior to that incident.

MR MAPOMA: And the chief was not there?

MR MBHELE: No, he had been called, the chief was called to some area called Papene, but he was not present at the time.

MR MAPOMA: And also the commander was not there?

MR MBHELE: Very true.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you instruct that he must be killed?

MR MBHELE: I am apologising as far as this is concerned, because I did not utter any instruction to the effect that he must be killed. At some place called Kolkoaton not far away from Hopewell, there were IFP members who were slaughtered there.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, I'm asking about this Themza boy, what exactly did you order about him?

MR MBHELE: There is no instruction that I gave, I simply shot at him standing by the wall and I'm therefore apologising for that act.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, before apologising, sir, how did he happen to be brought to the place? Is it not because of your instruction that he must be fetched?

MR MBHELE: He was fetched by one group that was in my company, that I said they must go and fetch him, I did give that instruction that he must be fetched by a group in our company.

MR MAPOMA: And then when he was brought to you, you just took him to a donga to shoot him?

MR MBHELE: Very true.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ask him about the allegations against him?

MR MBHELE: Although I don't have clear recollection of what prevailed, I know very well we did converse for quite some time, as I've already said in the past that I did not keep any records or diary with regard to the issues that happened.

MR MAPOMA: So do I take it that you don't remember yourself confronting him about the allegations against him, this young boy?

MR MBHELE: I know that I asked him, but as to what he said in response, I do not remember that. We did have a conversation, although I don't recall exactly as to what we were conversing about.

MR MAPOMA: So do I take it that you don't remember whatever explanation that he gave to you about the allegations levelled to him?

MR MBHELE: Very well.

MR MAPOMA: And in any event, whatever he would have said, you would have relied on what your IFP persons were telling you about him?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I would have relied upon what information I would have gotten from IFP members.

MR MAPOMA: And you did not make your own investigation about these allegations regarding this boy you killed?

MR MBHELE: We did not converse very long.

MR MAPOMA: And after you killed him, Ndaba Ndobo Mbamba arrived, you said so in your evidence in chief, do you recall that?

MR MBHELE: I did not say that. It's a girl, Ndobo Mbamba's girl, not him.

MR MAPOMA: And then she explained to you the circumstances around which the Themza boy happened to be at their home, and that is that this boy was sickly and he went there to have some herbs, you said so in your evidence in chief, do you recall that?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I recall that.

MR MAPOMA: And that is in fact after you had already killed him, is that so?

MR MBHELE: Very true.

MR MAPOMA: Do you understand, therefore, that the allegations that were levelled about this boy by the people who told you may have been wrong about this boy?

MR MBHELE: I did believe when I heard that, because these were people who were present and I had therefore to rely and believe what they said, but I will still not repudiate the fact that that could have been wrong.

MR LAX: Mr Mapoma, are you putting it to this applicant that there are people who are relatives of that deceased who are saying that he wasn't involved in the things that he's been accused of? You sort of obliquely seem to be approaching it from that angle, but I'm not sure if you're directly putting it to him in that way, because if you have instructions to that effect, I suggest you put it to him.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, the difficulty I have at this moment is that there is no relative for this boy who is here, but there are local people who seem to recall about this incident.

MR LAX: If they've given you a different version, then now would be the right time to put that to him.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mbhele, I put it to you that you killed this boy upon the allegations which were wrong, this boy was at the Themza home because he was sickly, he went there to get medical attention? What do you say to that?

MR MBHELE: I will not refute that. If you have knowledge with as far as this is concerned, I do trust you, I know you will not cheat or fool me, but then that was the information I had at hand during that time.

MR MAPOMA: I put it to you, sir, that had you investigated this before you killed this boy, then you would have arrived at a different decision? What do you say to that?

MR MBHELE: I do regret deeply and I am very sorry about that, but I have to put blame now at Hlushai, because he's the one who furnished me with all the information or these allegations and I did not know the person, and I apologise.

MR MAPOMA: Now the other young man from ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, who was this Hlushai?

MR MBHELE: He's a Dlamini boy, Hlushai Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say "boy", what do you mean, what age?

MR MBHELE: I think he was about 20, 21, 22, with regards to age.

CHAIRPERSON: So a very young man who gave you this information which you relied on to kill somebody, is that the position?

MR MBHELE: I would like the Chairperson to be able or to understand that the people who were active in these incidents were young men, not old men, so we are dealing here with young men, not necessarily old men.

MR LAX: Just before you go on, why didn't you keep that boy there, wait for your commander to come back, and discuss the matter with him and make sure that you were killing the right person?

MR MBHELE: I am very sorry, I had no place to harbour this boy or to keep this boy, where I could keep him for that long period, to know that he has been killed, that settled me and I am very sorry for the acts that I committed. I realise the mistake that occurred, but I'm very apologetic.

MR LAX: You see if you didn't have a place to keep him, why didn't you just take him to the police and say, "This boy is a known killer, he's been involved in violence, here are all the witnesses", the people who told you that he had been involved in attacks on them, and hand him straight over? You had the witnesses with you, according to your affidavit?

MR MBHELE: I would like to explain to this forum that the Ixopo police hated me so much and they did utter words to the effect that they will kill me, so there was that rumour that was circulating about Ixopo police.

MR LAX: Why didn't you get somebody else to take him to the police station, or take him to a different police station?

MR MBHELE: I will put blame at myself, because it did not occur at the time that these could be mechanisms I could employ.

MR LAX: You see I say this to you because yesterday you were very clear in your mind that the IFP policy was not to kill people, but to be peaceful?

MR MBHELE: That's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Yet you had just arrived in Mazabegwene at this time, you knew hardly any of the people there?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's true.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were prepared, contrary to IFP policies, to kill someone on information you had got from Hlushai?

MR MBHELE: Yes, it has been my fault.

MR LAX: One last thing, how old was this - you refer to him as a boy, how old was he?

MR MBHELE: This will be a hypothetical figure, I think he will be around 25, 26, 27, but that's a rough estimation, I'm not sure or certain about this figure.

MR LAX: No, thanks, it's just helpful to try and identify who he might have been.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir. Now the boy from - I mean the young male from Nokwensha ...(intervention).

INTERPRETER: From where?

MR MAPOMA: Nokwensha, you say he was unknown to you also?

MR MBHELE: Yes, he was unknown to me.

MR MAPOMA: And he was staying at Mazabegwene area?

MR MBHELE: Yes, his home is in Mazabegwene.

MR MAPOMA: And that is the area which was IFP stronghold?

MR MBHELE: Very true.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact his home was nearby Mr Khumane's kraal? Do you recall that?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I recall that, it's true.

MR MAPOMA: Was Mr Khumane the IFP member?

MR MBHELE: Yes, he was.

MR MAPOMA: As well as Chief Dlamini, he was also the IFP member?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's true.

MR MAPOMA: And that Mazabegwene was under Chief Dlamini?

MR MBHELE: Very true.

MR MAPOMA: What information was it that required that this young man be killed?

MR MBHELE: Please repeat your question?

MR MAPOMA: Why was this young man killed?

MR MBHELE: When we arrived, he had already fled, and he came now as an informer, this is hearsay, from what I heard.

MR MAPOMA: From whom did you hear that?

MR MBHELE: From the gang that was active in Mazabegwene. When I asked about the house, I was told that the people who lived there, or occupied the house, had fled.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you spoke about a gang that was active at Mazabegwene, what do you mean "the gang that was active"?

MR MBHELE: I'm referring to my followers, the people - supports of IFP, in other words.

CHAIRPERSON: You again called them your followers, you said, "I was talking of my followers"?

MR MBHELE: We are followers of Shenge Babasane.

MR LAX: No, that doesn't change the fact that in your evidence you used the word "my followers". You may have had a greater political purpose.

MR MBHELE: I meant to say the followers that were part with me following this organisation, Babasane that is.

CHAIRPERSON: What is this organisation, Babasane?

MR MBHELE: Chairperson, please don't take offence on this. I'm talking now about the president of IFP, the president of the organisation, I refer to him as Babasane.

CHAIRPERSON: So do you say he was the leader of this organisation that you were a follower of?

MR MBHELE: The ones that I heard from, we belonged to this organisation and followers of Babasane.

CHAIRPERSON: Now is that any different from saying they were members of the IFP?

MR MBHELE: No, it's one and the same thing.

CHAIRPERSON: So they told you this?

MR MBHELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR MBHELE: Because I asked them as to where were the occupants of this house.

MR LAX: You said you asked them where were the occupants of this house, what house are you referring to?

MR MBHELE: That house that I was talking about, then they told me that the people who used to reside in that house fled, went to Kabane area.

MR LAX: So was this an unoccupied house that was next to the chief's kraal and near Khumane's kraal?

MR MBHELE: Yes.

MR LAX: And are you saying that you were told that this young man had come back to his house and then had fled once they tried to shoot him?

MR MBHELE: No, he did not flee, but he was hid.

MR LAX: He was what, sorry?

MR MBHELE: I found him in the house and I was with a certain guy and I called him and I went away with him.

MR LAX: So you found him in that house hiding there, is that what you're saying?

MR MBHELE: No, he was not hiding, he was simply there.

CHAIRPERSON: So you went to the house, you found him there, you called him and went away with him?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's true, that's what happened. And I would like to apologise.

MR LAX: You see, in your affidavit you say that a Dlamini person went with you to point out this house. Now if you'd seen the house, you'd seen it was empty, why did anyone need to point it out to you? The way you've given it in your evidence is that you went and inquired about an empty house and what someone was doing in that house. That's not how you put it in your affidavit. Please explain that to us?

MR MBHELE: I inquired and I heard subsequently that he has come back, I heard that he was back. He was there when we arrived with a Dlamini boy, I've forgotten his name, Dlamini boy that is, and in fact you've just reminded me.

MR LAX: So why did he have to point out the house to you if you knew which house you were going to, because you'd already inquired about it?

MR MBHELE: It's not one house in isolation, there were quite a number of houses that were not occupied by people, it was not only one house.

MR LAX: Carry on, Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. Would you explain this, why was this boy killed?

MR MBHELE: Because he was ANC affiliated.

MR MAPOMA: But weren't you saying that he was IFP spy, I mean he was a spy, spying on IFP activities?

MR MBHELE: As he had arrived after he had left, he had come there to sort of want to find out as to how we were camping. I think that's what actually happened, or was the case.

MR MAPOMA: Has he ever been to your camp?

MR MBHELE: No, I never saw him at once in my camp.

MR MAPOMA: Is it not correct that you were told that someone from his home was camping with you?

MR MBHELE: Please repeat that question?

MR MAPOMA: Is it not correct that the information you received was that someone from his home was camping with you before they left?

MR MBHELE: Camping with us? What do you mean? I don't remember quite well, because these things happened long time ago and I kept no records to this effect, nor a diary to this effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, did you kill lots of other people that you haven't told us about?

MR MBHELE: No, the ones that I remember are the ones that I've already told you about, and I've also told you about the cases that I've been convicted for.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I find it very difficult to understand when you are telling us what appears to be your first killing, that you keep on saying, "Well I didn't keep a record, I didn't keep a diary, I can't remember". One would have thought that a man would have remembered a thing like this. Can you explain?

MR MBHELE: With regards to this boy, exactly what happened or was the case, I killed him, he was standing by the wall, that's the facts I can furnish you with.

CHAIRPERSON: He was standing by the wall?

MR MBHELE: There was water running in some furrow ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say he was standing by the wall or the well?

MR MBHELE: It's one and the same thing, because it's one wall and right underneath there would be water running, so it's one and the same thing to me.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by wall?

MR MBHELE: It's some structure that looks like a wall, but not a very long wall.

MR LAX: You see, in your affidavit you say you took him to a gully and that's where you shot him, you don't say anything about a wall or a well or anything like that. So that's why we're puzzled. Just explain why you, here you talk about a wall and you shot him next to the wall, and the other place you say you took him to a gully?

MR MBHELE: The gully you are talking about, I don't know, it's my first time I hear about gully, I don't even know how it looks like, maybe you should explain to me what gully is?

MR LAX: A gully is usually like a donga and that's what's in your affidavit, we didn't put it there, this is your affidavit.

MR MBHELE: Now I perfectly understand. Thank you.

MR LAX: Now that you understand, maybe you can explain this to us?

MR MBHELE: Is that gully, as you've already explained to me, you talk about gully, I think that's what's gully, I thought it was just a small wall, that's where he was killed. Now I do understand you, your terminology when you say it's gully, but we're talking here about the same thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand that you killed him, he was killed, sorry, he was killed because he was an ANC - he was affiliated to the ANC, you've told us?

MR MBHELE: Yes, and I'm very sorry, I would like to apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: And you killed him because your commander told you to do so?

MR MBHELE: Very true.

CHAIRPERSON: That's Beki Mkhize, your commander in the IFP?

MR MBHELE: Yes, in that particular area, it's him.

CHAIRPERSON: So despite the fact that you say that the IFP was opposed to violence, the IFP commander was ordering you to murder a young man because he was affiliated to the ANC?

MR MBHELE: I would like to explain this, that you understand that the situation and the violence had so much intensified in the area that we had no other means to implement, except killing.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then do you say that it was the policy to kill?

MR MBHELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Well please, you must make your mind up one way or the other. You've now just said that we must understand the violence had changed so much that there was no other way of doing it. That can only mean that you were now obliged to kill, that was your new policy?

MR MBHELE: Yes, according to us, but not according to the organisation at large. The organisation would not allow that, but as for our unit, we found ourselves doing and finding ourselves obliged to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was your commander in the organisation, the commander over that area, who was ordering the killings?

MR MBHELE: Yes, because they were killing us as well, attacking us.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anybody higher up in the organisation, above your commander for example, ever visit the area and come and say to you, "Listen, this killing's got to stop, this is no good", did anyone ever remonstrate to you for doing this, within the IFP?

MR MBHELE: Dumasane Kumsane, who was our superior, did visit, but I don't recall him giving instruction, at least to me, that we should exercise killing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he come and tell you you shouldn't be killing people?

MR MBHELE: No. He never said anything with regards to the fighting that was going on, but he emphasized the peace that should be maintained. I don't know anything beyond him, or anybody beyond him, for that matter, who might have came.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did the chief of your area come and say, "Please, you must stop all this killing, it's not good, I don't approve of it"?

MR MBHELE: The chief had no knowledge or bore no knowledge inasfar as the killings were concerned. It was just a cry from the community that the IFP is being attacked and slaughtered in the area.

MR LAX: But some of these killings must have been discussed with the chiefs, they must have heard that people were dying in their areas? How can you say they didn't know that people were being killed? Were they that fast asleep?

MR MBHELE: What was known to the chief is that we were being attacked and killed, but as for us killing, I would be lying, telling a blatant lie to this commissioner if I said he bore that knowledge.

MR LAX: I see. Well you see, in the case which we're still coming to about the three Transkei soldiers, it's clear from those facts that that chief knew that happened, not so?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I would concur with that, because we were in that car, but he did not witness the killing of the soldiers, I mean the king.

MR LAX: You don't have to witness these killings to know that they're happening in your area. I didn't ask you whether he witnessed the killings, I asked you whether he knew about the killings. Do you understand the question?

MR MBHELE: Yes. I think he did hear.

CHAIRPERSON: You brought these people back to the chief's kraal and killed them there, the boy from the Themza kraal, you say, was brought to the chief's kraal and killed at the donga in front of the chief's kraal?

MR MBHELE: It's not like that. The soldiers were killed very far away from the chief's kraal.

CHAIRPERSON: The Themza boy I'm talking to you about now, was killed in front of the chief's kraal, wasn't he, and you say in your affidavit

"Nobody knew about his death except the IFP supporters who were at the chief's kraal."

MR MBHELE: Before the chief's kraal, not before the king, before the chief's kraal, not before the chief himself.

CHAIRPERSON: The people at the chief's kraal were aware of the killing?

MR MBHELE: Yes, they were aware.

CHAIRPERSON: You then brought the next young man who you're telling us about now, he was brought to wait outside the chief's kraal, wasn't he?

MR MBHELE: Outside, yes, outside.

CHAIRPERSON: So again the people there would know what was happening?

MR MBHELE: Yes, they were aware, the IFP members.

CHAIRPERSON: So how can you tell us that the chief bore no knowledge of the killings?

MR MBHELE: I respect chiefs very much and I would not like for the chief to witness any evil deeds, because we respect a chief very much.

MR LAX: Just to finish off this issue, the bottom line is though that you now concede the chief must have known about these killings, he didn't ever say anything to you about them, he didn't come and tell you, "Please you guys must stop this, this is not good"?

MR MBHELE: It was not very easy for him to come to us to tell us to stop this, because he never saw us doing this or never saw us in action, so it was not very easy for him to have come to us to stop us, and I would like to apologise once again.

MR LAX: Carry on, Mr Mapoma.

CHAIRPERSON: You were the bodyguards, weren't you?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mbhele, let us deal with the murder of Musi. Chairman and honourable members of the Committee, for the record, the surname of Musi is Zuma, I'm instructed. Mr Mbhele, Sarah Jane Zuma is the mother of Musi. Do you understand that?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I do.

MR MAPOMA: And she is in fact here, for your information. You are saying that Musi who was an ANC member who was recruiting for the ANC in the area. Sir, I put it to you that Mrs Zuma, the mother of the late Musi, is here and she will say that at the Mbovini area, that was an IFP stronghold and she and her family were members of the IFP, that includes Musi.

MR MBHELE: That's a lie, Musi was never an IFP member. He would be still alive if he was IFP member. I wouldn't even attempted to assault or kill him if he was IFP member, but I realised that he had mounted a big roadblock and he was forcing and coercing people to join ANC, and I discovered that and proved that to be true, and I killed him alone, not with his family. I will like for the family to divulge everything to you in its truthful manner, because that's exactly what happened, I know it from start to end.

I know them that they are IFP, that I cannot refute, but the boy never was an IFP, he was an ANC, I will not lie to this forum as I'm here applying for amnesty and it may be true that they were not aware that I am the killer of Musi. I brought this to your attention voluntarily, out of my own volition.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir. Did you know Musi?

MR MBHELE: I did not know him.

MR MAPOMA: Where did you get information about Musi?

MR MBHELE: The information with regards to Musi, I gathered it from when they mounted a roadblock and blocking the buses, not to go through, kids not to go to school, and they toyi-toyied as usual, that the kids must - or students should not go to school, and a certain group came as well from Mbovini, I don't know them, and told us that Musi was behind this there at Mbovini area, I did not know him at the time, and when I got to his house, I even asked as to who Musi was, and he answered and said he was the one, and he was well-endowed, better than me physically, and he tried to capture me and I shot him instantly and I would like to forward my apologies.

MR MAPOMA: Sir, you did not know Musi?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I did not know him by sight, I only heard about him till the day I met him.

MR MAPOMA: And, sir, you did not know what Musi was doing, you were told by this young boy who told you?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I was told.

MR MAPOMA: And who is this young boy?

MR MBHELE: I will be playing a fool out of you if I would give you the name, because I did not know people's names in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: So this was somebody who you didn't even know his name, who came and told you that Musi was behind this roadblock?

MR MBHELE: Let me explain that I'm not coming from - or rather I did not come from that area, I would be told by people that this is the position and this is the case, otherwise I did not know people's names, I knew them by sight, some of them. You'll find a situation that I don't know a person's name, plus the surname, but I will know him by sight, even the leader of Mbovini knew that very well, that I did not know people in the area, I only knew a few of them, especially those I will have close contact with.

MR MAPOMA: And you were told that "they" were blocking children from going to school. Who were "they"?

MR MBHELE: The very boy who came to tell me, I'm still referring to him, and I ...(indistinct) there's nothing much I will say, because I don't know the residents of that area.

MR MAPOMA: And did he tell you about Musi only?

MR MBHELE: He told me about Musi plus others, but he told me that the person was so influential in this whole thing was Musi, and then I said the person we should be after then would have to be Musi ideally, and I'll still like to forward my apologies, especially that you're telling me that he was IFP, that is shocking, because the information I got is to the contrary of what you're saying.

MR MAPOMA: Do you realise that the information that you got may be false?

MR MBHELE: I will still not refute that, because people can say that their missions or agenda using at other people's expenses, that I cannot repudiate.

MR MAPOMA: And I put it to you that the information that you received, if at all you received that information, was incorrect, Musi was a member of the IFP, and you were misled. What do you say to that?

MR MBHELE: I hear that and I feel so much - I feel remorse.

MR LAX: Did you actually see this roadblock yourself?

MR MBHELE: I did not see it myself, but the children were going to school and did not get to arrive at school due to the roadblock that was mounted.

MR MAPOMA: And all this on the strength of a boy you don't even know coming to tell you such a story?

MR MBHELE: I knew him that he was part of the organisation, but I don't know his name. You see I don't want to fool this forum. I will tell you upon appearance, or upon his appearing, that this is the boy, but I did not have details pertaining to him.

MR LAX: So it was just one boy who came and told you this?

MR MBHELE: No, it was only one boy, I think there were two or three.

MR LAX: Well you see earlier in your evidence you said it was the people from that area that came and told you this, you used the expression "the people from the area"?

MR MBHELE: Yes, those are the people, yes, they were coming from Mbovini, they were the very same people. We did not leave Mazabegwene to Mbovini, instead they left their place to come to us and divulge this information to us.

MR LAX: Well, either it was one or two boys who came and told you this, or it was the people from the area, which implies many people concerned about a big issue who came to tell you about it. Make up your mind, which is it?

MR MBHELE: The three I'm talking about, I regarded them as part of the community, but the one who was vocal was one out of the three.

MR LAX: How old was this boy you refer to, who gave you this information?

MR MBHELE: I think he will be 30 years old.

MR LAX: How do you refer to a 30 year old as a boy?

MR MBHELE: According to our culture, tradition, if you are not, or if you are still a bachelor, single and not married yet, we refer to you as a boy or however as we wish.

MR LAX: Well then why were you so eager to correct the evidence in your affidavit that a young man who you described as being about 26 shouldn't be called a boy?

MR MBHELE: No, that is, the way it was explained, it appeared as if he's a one year or six months old baby, or two years, and yet that was not the case, the way the description came across.

MR LAX: Ja, let's leave it, it's really immaterial.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you the person who decided to kill Musi because of the information you had?

MR MBHELE: Yes, we discussed with Mabesa.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was "we"?

MR MBHELE: It was myself and Beza.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Beki Mkhize?

MR MBHELE: Yes. That day he was present and he was due to leave for Durban.

CHAIRPERSON: So the two of you discussed and decided he should be killed?

MR MBHELE: Yes, there's Mkoseem Mbheli and Mkoseem Mkhize, plus myself, the three of us discussed the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the first, Mkhize and who's the other one, Mkoseem who?

MR MBHELE: It was myself and Mabesa and Khusi.

CHAIRPERSON: And you went with a large group of people, all armed?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's true.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir. And what instructions were given by Mabesa?

MR MBHELE: I discovered that Musi was the person that we should be after, because he's the one who's blocking children from going to school and mounting a massive roadblock. In my opinion, it was ideal that Musi should be captured, and this does not go down well with me, since I hear that that was not the case, Musi instead was part of our group, that information I had not at the time, especially that I never saw him even at once in our rallies or meetings, IFP meetings that is, and once again I apologise and to Musi's mom as well, I would like this to be heard, that I'm apologising.

MR MAPOMA: Sir, let me just read to you what you said in your affidavit regarding the instructions that were given. You have said, on page 14 of the bundle

"During the night, I, together with the following, were given instructions by our commander, Beki Mkhize, to go and destroy everything we could find on the premises, and that if we could find the head, Musi, it would be better."

Do you hear that?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I heard that, but not to destroy everything that we'll find in the premises, that was not the case. Musi was the one we were after. If we were going to implement that kind of strategy, we would have therefore killed everybody in the house, but then the people who we were after was this particular man and indeed we brought that to fruition, we got hold of him and we let go of the others.

MR MAPOMA: Then why did you say this in your affidavit?

MR MBHELE: I think this person who was writing there did not quite understand what I was saying. The destroying of everything, no, no, no, that was not the case, I think it's just a mistake more than anything, especially the person who was writing that could have not understood me.

MR MAPOMA: Now, would you disclose to the Committee what is it that these other men do?

MR MBHELE: The ones in my company did nothing, because I was the only one who went into the house and I kicked the door open and I stormed into the house and I left the others outside, because my intention or objective was that we wanted the most influential person, and I knew very well that he was fully armed, because the ANC people are well conversant with the use of firearms, I suspected that he could be armed, then I decided maybe one of us should die and I dedicated myself in this mission that I would storm in to the house alone.

MR MAPOMA: Now are you saying, sir, that all these men who were armed in your company were just watching you running the show there, is that what you want the Committee to believe, sir?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's the honest truth and please take it, because the police did arrived and established a fact that only one firearm was used, not more than that.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Thank you, chairperson, I've no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: This would be a convenient stage to take a short adjournment.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR MAPOMA: I must apologise for the delay. Mr Mbhele, let us deal with the murder of Maphuthalenza Dlamini. The brother of Maphuthalenza is attending the hearing, his name is Lezi Raphael Dlamini. He will say that Maphuthalenza was never a member of the ANC, he was in fact an IFP member. Are you able to dispute that?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I can dispute it.

MR MAPOMA: Why?

MR MBHELE: Because Maphuta actually called the police into his home.

MR MAPOMA: Sorry, would you repeat that?

MR MBHELE: Maphuta called the High Flats police personnel into his home where we were at the time.

MR MAPOMA: Were they called by him, were the police called by him?

MR MBHELE: As far as we were concerned, they were called by him, because they actually arrived at his home when we were there, also there, on our way to Mazabegwene.

MR MAPOMA: But you did not say that in your evidence in chief, why not, why only now that you say that?

MR MBHELE: I gave my statement to Mr Mbatha.

MR MAPOMA: And the statement that you gave to Mr Mbatha is in fact the affidavit that you signed?

MR MBHELE: Yes. I am surprised to learn that that is not contained in the affidavit, because I explained everything to him.

MR MAPOMA: But, sir, not only is it not contained in the affidavit, but also when you gave evidence in chief yesterday, you did not make mention of that. Why only now?

MR MBHELE: It was not easy to remember, because I was being asked many questions at the same time.

MR MATTHEWS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, may I come in here? There's something of concern. I would expect it to be only fair that if there was other information which was available to the commission or to the Evidence Leader of the commission, that this information should have been part of the documentation and that this information should have in fact been handed over to the applicant prior to him testifying before this Committee. It now appears that the applicant is being bombarded with information which has been given exclusively to the Evidence Leader of this Committee from members of the public who now possibly have arrived, such as the instant case of the brother, and I submit, with respect, in all fairness, this information should have been given to the applicant prior to these proceedings commencing.

CHAIRPERSON: But it emanates from people here who are now being represented by the leader of evidence. They wish their facts to be put to the applicant. Why should that not happen? We are here to try to get at the truth, to get at a full disclosure. I'm afraid I have some problem with your objection indicating that it should have been put prior to the hearing at a time when I imagine the leader of evidence had never even seen these people.

MR MATTHEWS: That is the exact point I'm making, Mr Chairman, is that, according to, if I understand it, the rules of this, everybody who was either implicated or any of the family of any of the victims are notified prior to this hearing that evidence would be led about a specific incident and they are surely invited at that stage to comment on the allegations made by the applicant, and those allegations by these persons should surely be forwarded to us prior to the hearing of this Committee so that the legal representative can go through them with the applicant. I ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, it never does happen, they never do give information beforehand, affidavits and things. They are notified of the date and time of hearings and that there will be an inquiry, an application will be heard dealing with these matters.

MR MATTHEWS: With respect, Mr Chairman, I submit that the constitution of this country makes it quite clear that persons are entitled to information which are in the possession of other persons where this information could affect any judicial process, and I submit that this Committee is in fact a judicial process, in fact it has far, wide powers of granting amnesty to persons who've been convicted of serious offences. Now if one were to arrive at a hearing of this nature and suddenly the Evidence Leader of this Committee comes into possession of certain information, then I submit that this information should be put down into affidavit form or into writing and should be supplied to the applicant, so that he may peruse it and ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Well I disagree, because the people concerned can get up themselves and put it. This is merely a procedure to avoid the public doing it, that it is done through the Evidence Leader. Would you deny them the right to get up and say, "He is not telling the truth about my son", do you say that is in our constitution?

MR MATTHEWS: No, that is the exact point that I'm not trying to make, Mr Chairman. What I'm trying to say is that it would be only fair if the applicant were aware of certain allegations such as these, where it is alleged that the last two victims were in fact not members of the ANC, but members of the IFP. I don't want to stop anybody from standing up and I don't want want to stop anybody from putting his point of view forward, in fact that is what this surely is all about, but I submit, under the circumstances, it's only fair the applicant in fact be informed that these are the points of view, and that prior to the applicant giving evidence in a matter of this nature, there was nothing stopping any of these persons who wished to put their point of view. In fact the next application we have before this Committee there is in fact an affidavit made by the victim's wife, and I submit that that has been done correctly, whereas in this case it has not been done.

MR LAX: But, with respect, Mr Matthews, the two fundamental differences between that usual process which would operate in a criminal trial, in this particular matter, the applicant is dominus litis, he is the person who is making an application before us, he's required to make full disclosure. The primary object of putting a different version to him is not to bombard him with questions or surprise him with a different version or anything of that nature, it's simply to allow those people who differ from his point of view or have a different version to put it to him. He's at liberty to deny that or say that that's not how it is or whatever. It's not a question of catching him off guard, it's not a question of confronting him with a whole case that has been made out, as would happen in a criminal trial, or in any other court trial process, this is a a quasi-judicial inquiry and we're in the nature of a commission as you would be fully aware, and there are numerous judgments where our Committee's been taken on review in relation to a whole range of issues. Our process has been accepted as being a valid and fair one, and this is how we've worked for the last 2½ years.

CHAIRPERSON: Section 19.4(b) states that we

"Should inform people who are victims or implicated persons, or who have an interest in the application, of their right to be present at the hearing, and to testify, adduce evidence and submit any article to be taken into consideration."

And that is what is being done through the assistance of the leader of evidence.

MR MATTHEWS: Well, with respect, Mr Chairman, in a judicial process for the applicant to face certain evidence or articles or any other matter that must be taken into consideration by this Committee without having prior notice as to the nature of it, but to see it for the first time during his cross-examination, I submit that that cannot be fair, but I will leave it there.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Chairperson, just for the record, before I proceed, I just want to make it clear, sir, that there is no statement in writing that has been taken from any of the victims, it has just been through consultation with them immediately before the hearing that I got their versions and I've been requested by them to take care of their interests in asking questions to the applicant. That is exactly what I'm doing, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the purpose of your questions, it has been to give the applicant an opportunity to deal with it because these people are now going to come forward and give evidence to that effect?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, chairperson, that is exactly the case, and also, sir, some of them are not even willing to testify, but they would want these positions to be put forward to the applicant so that the applicant can respond to them in their presence to hear what that response is. Thank you, chairperson, may I proceed, sir? Thank you. Mr Mbhele, who gave you instructions, if any person, to kill Maphuthalenza Dlamini?

MR MBHELE: No-one did.

MR MAPOMA: But, sir, I want to read for you, on page 17 of the bundle, in the affidavit that you gave to the Committee you say, in the last sentence on page 17, the last sentence dealing with the matter of Maphuthalenza, you say

"I carried this act on my commander's instructions, Mr Beki Mkhize."

That's what you said in your affidavit. What are you saying regarding these contradictions?

MR MBHELE: That is not true. When they took the statement, they would ask me questions about who the commander was and I told them who the commander was, but he did not issue such an instruction.

MR MAPOMA: So are you saying you did this out of your own initiative?

MR MBHELE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And what you did was in conflict with the IFP policy, do you acknowledge that?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I do.

MR MAPOMA: Sir, let us deal with the matter of the three Transkei Defence Force members. Is it not correct, sir, that when this motor vehicle driven by these three members of the Transkei Defence Force came to you, you did ask these gentlemen where they were coming from?

MR MBHELE: That is true.

MR MAPOMA: And they told you that they are from Durban and they are travelling to Umtata?

MR MBHELE: They said they were from Umtata.

MR MAPOMA: Oh, they were from Umtata to Durban?

MR MBHELE: That's what they said.

MR MAPOMA: And the information you had was that the motor vehicle you were looking for had a TJ registration number plate, is it not correct?

MR MBHELE: That is a gross mistake. It was a number, No T registration ...(intervention).

MR MAPOMA: Yes, sorry, sorry for that mistake. It was a Transvaal registration numberplate?

MR MBHELE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And when you searched that car, you never saw any Transvaal registration numberplate in the car, is that so?

MR MBHELE: That is so. I actually saw three different things in the car. The numberplate was CD and the disc was SH and at the back there was a registration plate starting with an XM, and I therefore became certain that this was the car responsible for the deaths of Ngubane and Mr Khumale.

MR MAPOMA: And prior to you being convicted for the murder of these three members of the Transkei Defence Force, you did give a statement to the police, is it not so?

MR MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact you also gave - you made a confession to the police, is that so?

MR MBHELE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And when you made your statement to the police, that statement reflected what actually happened, isn't it so?

MR MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in that statement you said this motor vehicle had a CE registration number?

MR MBHELE: That is not true, it was CB. CE and CB are very different things.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but I want to read for you, on page 63 of the bundle of documents, that is a statement which you made to the police, and in that statement there's a sentence there which reads - I'm sorry, chairperson, these lines are not numbered, but it's ...(intervention).

MR LAX: No, no, we've got it.

CHAIRPERSON: It's about a third of the way down.

MR MAPOMA: You say there, I want to read for you

"We then noticed a white Sprinter with a CE registration. We stopped it and asked the occupants where were they from. They said they are from Durban and they are going to Umtata."

That's what you said in that statement.

MR LAX: And if you could just add, Mr Mapoma, the same thing appears on page 54

"All of a sudden, a white Sprinter car CE arrived."

That is in your statement you made to the police. So the same thing is in both of those two statements.

MR MBHELE: I think that was a mistake committed by the police, I told them CB.

MR LAX: Well one is a statement made to a magistrate and one is a statement made to the police, they're two different statements.

MR MBHELE: I think that was a mistake. The registration plate was CB not CE. At the back there was another one that started with an XM.

MR LAX: Are you saying on the back of the vehicle, in other words the mounted numberplate on the back, said XM?

MR MBHELE: At the back of the seat, there were two registration plates at the back of the seat.

MR LAX: Okay. I was getting confused, I thought you meant at the back of the car, not under the seat, I was just trying to be clear about that.

MR MBHELE: Oh, oh I'm sorry.

MR LAX: Thank you for that.

MR MAPOMA: Sir, who prepared the amnesty application for you?

MR MBHELE: ...(indistinct) from Mpendle wrote it for me. Are you referring to a policeman, or maybe the person who wrote the form?

MR MAPOMA: I'm referring to the person who wrote the form for you, sir.

MR MBHELE: It was ...(indistinct) from Mpendle. I actually requested him to fill in the form for me.

MR MAPOMA: What relationship does he have with you?

MR MBHELE: He's an IFP member. He is the youth leader from Mpendle.

MR MAPOMA: Yes. And he completed this form on the instructions that he received from you, is that so?

MR MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: So all that he wrote, he wrote under your instructions, you instructed him what happened?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now, who gave you orders to kill these Transkei policemen? Oh yes, yes, sorry, these Transkei soldiers. Thank you for the correction. Who gave you instructions to kill them?

MR MBHELE: No-one instructed me to do that. As people who were suffering, being killed in the area, I decided that I should kill them, but I am very sorry about it. Ever since their deaths, there had never been an incident where IFP members were killed by unknown persons. I had never heard of an incident where unknown persons had actually killed IFP members from that area again, that is ever since the death of these soldiers.

MR MAPOMA: Now, sir, I want to draw your attention to page 6 of the bundle of documents. That page 6 contains your application form for amnesty. On paragraph 11(b), you are asked a question there, to specify the name and address of the person who gave you orders, and you say, in your response, killing of persons and listed at paragraph 9 form, an ambush on Mr Magubane. Now you go on, this is what I want to draw your specific attention to, you go on to say

"All attacked on orders of my commander, Beki Mkhize, except Tulaphute Dlamini and Anton Mzmandi, who died as a result of my own initiative."

Do you get that? From what it appears, sir?

MR MBHELE: I understand, although this was not written properly. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it was correct, because the killing of those soldiers was my own initiative. Beki was not around, there were just two of us.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying you killed two, I mean three trained soldiers, you being two only? Did it really happen like that?

MR MBHELE: That is the case.

MR MAPOMA: Now sir, I want to refer you again to page 55 of the bundle of documents. On that page there appears a statement, sir, that you made to the police, South African Police, where you said

"We greeted the people."

That is the you refer to the Transkei Defence Force members:-

"We then asked them where they are coming from, and they said they are from Durban proceeding to Umtata. I then proceeded to my commander, Beki, who was standing in front of Nemo's Store, and informed him that the people inside the car stated ...(indistinct), and they are Xhosas. Then the commander informed me that the people from the car are there to trace the land to attack them later. He said I must then, I must take them down to the road because the clinic was closed and kill all of them."

That's what you said in your statement?

MR MBHELE: You refer to it as a statement made to the police?

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

MR MBHELE: I would not actually remember what I said to the police, because they had actually assaulted me severely before and I was confused by that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you should read the next paragraph too.

MR MAPOMA: Must I read, sir? Oh, thank you. And in the next paragraph you say

"Mangoba Nkosa then tried to stop us. Me and Mbesbemeya..."

oh, sorry, let me read again:-

"Mangoba Nkosa then tried to stop us. Me and Mbesbemeya, by saying that the law doesn't allow this. There was nothing we could do because we already received instructions. Then I and Piers were..." ...(intervention).

SOMETHING INAUDIBLE SAID

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Do you hear that?

MR MBHELE: That was a statement by the police? Is that a statement to the police?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, that's a statement you made to the police.

MR MBHELE: As I explained before, I was confused, I had been severely assaulted by the Murder and Robbery Unit police from Port Shepstone. I would like to refer you to the statement that I made whilst I was in prison, the recent one. I do not really regard that one I made to the police as important, because they had severely assaulted me, they were short of killing me.

MR MAPOMA: And you made your statement, or a confession, before the magistrate, is that so?

MR MBHELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But in your statement that you made, I take it it's a statement, your affidavit, you say that you were escorting them

"When we came near the water pump, I realised that I would be scolded to arrive with these people still alive at the chief's kraal, as we had been advised that if found they had to be shot on the spot."

Did you say that?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who told you to shoot them on the spot? Mr Mbhele, who said that to you?

MR MBHELE: This car that we were searching for had a Transvaal registration plate, and we were to make sure that if we found that car, we should kill the occupants. When we saw the Sprinter, we decided, we concluded that that was indeed the car, and we attacked them.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you answer my question please, who told you to do that?

MR MBHELE: It was the commander.

MR LAX: But if the commander wasn't there, why were you worried about arriving at the chief's house?

MR MBHELE: What would have been the purpose of taking them to the chief after they'd killed Mr Ngubane?

MR LAX: Well you see, in your affidavit you say that you thought you would be scolded to arrive with these people still alive at the chief's house. Who was going to scold you?

MR MBHELE: On the day that Mabesa returned, he would ask me why did I not kill them, if after having found the people who had been responsible for killing our people, he would scold me why I didn't kill them.

MR LAX: But why were you taking them to the chief's house anyway?

MR MBHELE: I did not take them to the chief's house, we were actually next to the water pump.

MR LAX: Well you see then what you say in your affidavit doesn't make any sense at all. The reason you killed them at the water pump, according to this affidavit, is that you were afraid to arrive at the chief's house with these people still alive?

CHAIRPERSON: The chief's kraal.

MR LAX: The chief's kraal, I beg your pardon.

MR MBHELE: That is just one and the same thing, I did not arrive at the chief's kraal, because I actually shot them before we got there.

MR LAX: Well why were you taking them to the chief's kraal in the first place, so that you might be afraid to arrive there with them still alive, that's the issue?

MR MBHELE: The intention was for them to witness Ngubane's grave, whom they'd killed, I wanted to show them that grave, but even before we approached the grave, I stopped them next to the water pump and I shot at them and killed them. I apologise for this.

MR LAX: Carry on.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir. Sir, the statement you made to the police, you say you made it because you were assaulted by the police?

MR MBHELE: Yes, severely.

MR MAPOMA: And you made a confession before the magistrate, is it not so?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I was still under the influence of those beatings.

MR MAPOMA: Did the police tell you to say what you said?

MR MBHELE: No, I was just confused, because I had been beaten.

MR MAPOMA: When you were before the magistrate, you were warned of your rights, is that so?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I was told, but the policeman, or one of the policemen who had assaulted me was standing right next to me, and they told me if I had actually revealed to the magistrate that I had been assaulted, they were going to continue doing so after I was ...(intervention).

MR MAPOMA: So when you were before the magistrate, do you confirm that you said as follows, this is on page 63 of the bundle, you said of these Transkei Defence Force soldiers

"They said that they are from Durban and they are going to Umtata. I went and spoke to our commander, who instructed us not to let them go, since they had come to patrol the area. He suggested we take them down near a water pump and then kill them."

Do you confirm that you said this to the magistrate?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I did say it, but it was not true. The statement that is correct is the one that I made to the TRC investigator.

CHAIRPERSON: You went on to say there

"One Mangoba Nkosa said we shouldn't kill them. There was nothing we could do except comply with our commander's instructions."

MR MBHELE: Is that a statement made to the police?

CHAIRPERSON: To the magistrate.

MR MBHELE: As I explained before, I would like us to direct ourselves to the statement that I made to the TRC staff, because the other one was made under the influence of those beatings, I was confused when I made that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: And you, at the bottom of that page, page 63, in your statement to the magistrate, said

"After shooting them, we proceeded to the chief's kraal where we reported the shooting."

Do you remember saying that?

MR MBHELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON

"The chief said the deceased's vehicle looked like a vehicle which was used when one Ngubane, a taxi owner, was attacked and shot. The women who were there also confirmed it."

Did you say that?

MR MBHELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you then go on to say

"We searched the vehicle and behind the driver's seat we found another numberplate with an XM registration. One Shibane then asked why this vehicle had two registration plates and said it was indeed the same vehicle."

Did you say that?

MR MBHELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you then said

"We then decided to go back to where the deceased were left. We drove in their vehicle and we were now joined by one Dumasane Nkando, who was now the fourth one."

Did you say that?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I remember saying it.

CHAIRPERSON

"On our way we met with our commander, who suggested we take the bodies and throw them into the bushes."

Did you say that?

MR MBHELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And a little further down you said after you'd done that, you

"...proceeded to Chief Tjalesa's kraal at Mbovini location."

Do you remember saying that?

MR MBHELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON

"We reported the incident to him, who said it was the same vehicle used when Ngubane was shot to death."

Did you say that?

MR MBHELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir. I take it that you killed these Transkei Defence Force soldiers, because you suspected them to be the people who killed Mr Ngubane?

MR MBHELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you suspect them, because in the statement I just read to you, it appears that it was when you arrived at the chief's kraal, that it was suggested that this looked like the vehicle which was used when Ngubane was shot, and it was then that you looked behind the seat and found the other numberplate?

MR MBHELE: Yes, it looked like the one, and the car itself had three different registration numbers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you've told us - what you said is, you were told at the chief's kraal that it looked like the car used to attack Ngubane, and that the women who were there confirmed this. Is that so, is that when you were told?

MR MBHELE: Yes. When Mr Ngubane was killed, I was not even present, I just heard about it.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was only at the chief's kraal, after the killing, that it was confirmed that this car looked like the vehicle that was used, as you said in your statement, and it was after that that you searched the vehicle and found the other numberplate, the XM registration, is that so?

MR MBHELE: If I'm not mistaken, that's how it happened.

MR LAX: Well you see in your evidence in chief you told us that you found all three things before you killed them, so please explain this to us?

MR MBHELE: A long time has elapsed since the incident, but I know that I found all of these things in the car. This happened in 1993, it is not easy to remember what happened first, but I remember that their identity cards were discovered before they were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Now your statement to the magistrate was made in May 1994, when you would have been able to remember very much better, wouldn't you?

MR MBHELE: I explained before and I will repeat, when I appeared before the magistrate, I was with the policeman, one of the policemen who had assaulted me, and therefore my story before the magistrate had to corroborate with the one I had actually given to the police before.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the magistrate said that there was nobody else present, except the interpreter?

MR MBHELE: It was the interpreter and one policeman who was escorting me, and the magistrate and myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that is contrary to page 59 and to the normal practice when magistrates take statements. You were asked if you wanted to consult an attorney. Do you remember that?

MR MBHELE: I don't remember quite well, because a long time has elapsed. I would not deny or confirm that.

CHAIRPERSON: And you told the magistrate that you were treated well by the investigating officer?

MR MBHELE: I had to do that, because he was standing right there next to me. They would have killed me and alleged that I tried to run away, I had to lie.

CHAIRPERSON: You also said, you showed an injury to your left eye, which you said you sustained when the police pressed you to the ground?

MR MBHELE: They had been assaulting me, I was actually afraid to tell the magistrate that I had been assaulted, and they actually assaulted me severely, I was coughing up blood.

CHAIRPERSON: You see you did - oh, you were coughing up blood in front of the magistrate?

MR MBHELE: I did not show this to the magistrate.

CHAIRPERSON: You see you did tell the magistrate

"One policeman said if I don't speak the truth, he will assault me."

The magistrate then said:-

"Did this threat to speak the truth influence you to make a statement?"

and you said:-

"No, I want to make a statement anyway."

Do you remember that?

MR MBHELE: Although I cannot remember correctly, because I was actually confused.

CHAIRPERSON: The magistrate said you appeared to be relaxed and in your sound and sober senses?

MR MBHELE: I was not relaxed.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir. Do you recall, Mr Mbhele, that before I confronted you with these statements, you confirmed before this Committee that the statements that you made to the police and the magistrate reflect the true situation of what happened, do you recall that?

MR MBHELE: I explained that I was confused, because I had been assaulted, it was not easy to tell the truth in such a situation.

MR MAPOMA: No, sir, you only explained when you were confronted with these versions, but you don't want to own up to them now. Initially you said the statements that you made to the police were a true reflection of what happened there. Do you remember that, sir?

MR MBHELE: I do not remember.

MR MAPOMA: Anyway, then these policemen, I mean these Defence Force members from the Transkei, is it not correct that they identified themselves as Transkei Defence Force members when you were conversing with them?

MR MBHELE: They produced their identity cards.

MR MAPOMA: And then you drove them to the chief's place. Why did you drive them to the chief's place?

MR MBHELE: I repeat, they were not taken to the chief's kraal ...(intervention).

MR MAPOMA: No, no, sir, no, sorry, just get me correctly, I understand you may not have arrived at the chief's place, but you drove them and then killed them on the way, isn't it so, on the way to the chief's place, is that correct?

MR MBHELE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now before you killed them, why did you drive them to the chief's place, why did you drive them to where you were driving them to, why did you not kill them there and then?

MR MBHELE: That place was nearby a shop and those bodies will smell. There was a shop, Nemo's Shop, near the road.

MR MAPOMA: It is not correct that you killed these Defence Force members because they are Holomisa men?

MR MBHELE: I will say they were Holomisa's men, because they came from the Transkei.

MR MAPOMA: So even if they were not driving the motor vehicle you have just described, you would have killed them anyway, because they were Holomisa men, is it not so?

MR MBHELE: If they had been driving a car with one registration plate, I would have let them go, because there were other cars that passed by that route, but this particular car had three different registration plates. There was one car that passed by whose occupants were actually coming from Zimpoul and I let them go because there was nothing wrong with the car.

MR MAPOMA: Did you not kill them, sir, because they were Xhosas?

MR MBHELE: No, that is not true, there are Xhosas even within the IFP.

MR MAPOMA: Why then did you say in your statement that you informed your commander that the people inside the car stated ...(indistinct) and they are Xhosas, and you go on again, sir, on page 56 you say

"We then called the chief and showed him the car and told him that we have killed the Xhosas."

Why did you state that?

MR MBHELE: That is not what I said. I would like to beg for forgiveness for what I said, and what I said was, "I have killed Holomisa's dogs", that was the way I put it at the time when I reported to the commander.

MR MAPOMA: So you killed them because they were Holomisa's dogs? That's what you told the chief, is that so?

CHAIRPERSON: The commander.

MR MAPOMA: Oh.

CHAIRPERSON: You said you told that to the commander, was it the commander or the chief?

MR MBHELE: I told Mabesa that I had killed, but this word is not really acceptable, but I'm compelled to issue or to actually say what I said at the time.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, chairperson. Okay, let us proceed to the next incident, the murder of Anthony Mzmandi. Well in your evidence in chief you have told the Committee that after you have killed him, you later discovered that he was in love with the girlfriend of Mkozi Mbeli. Do you recall that, the deceased was in love with ...(intervention).

MR MBHELE: Yes I do remember.

MR MAPOMA: And you acknowledge that that was the reason why Mkozi Mbeli persuaded you to attack this man, is that so?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I really blame Mkozi Mbeli, because if he had not approached me and told me about people who had been carrying AK's, Mzmandi would still be alive.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact Mzmandi was not carrying an AK when you killed him, or when you found him, is that so?

MR MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact you found no men who were carrying AK's on that night, is that so?

MR MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: I put it to you, sir, that the killing of Anton Mzmandi was not an act associated with a political objective. What do you say to that?

MR MBHELE: I was called and I was told that there were people carrying AK47 and I understood that such people had come to attack and my duty was to guard against such people, because I had dedicated myself to protecting that community. If the battle was going on, I was the one who was supposed to face the enemy, but I am deeply remorseful about what Mkozi Mbele did. I also forgive him for what he did, although I'm now in prison, and I forgive everyone who was actually involved in wrongdoing against me.

MR MAPOMA: Now, sir, let us proceed to the ambush of Mr Makubane. Who were you ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Before you get on to that, this killing of Mzmandi. You saw him come out from under the bed, and you saw he was unarmed, didn't you?

MR MBHELE: I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you knew he wasn't someone there with an AK, but you shot him down when he tried to run away?

MR MBHELE: When he tried to run away, I thought that maybe he was going to call for back-up, because I had heard that there were people who had been carrying AK47. I decided to shoot him, but I did not mean to kill him, I thought he would just fall, but unfortunately he died. This was all done on the information that I had received from Mkozi Mbele, not knowing that he had his own personal agendas.

CHAIRPERSON: And after that you saw Mkozi's brother, Numala?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I saw him.

CHAIRPERSON: And demanded the expenses you had incurred from them?

MR MBHELE: I was not being paid for what I did.

CHAIRPERSON: And they paid you R2 000,00?

MR MBHELE: Yes, for the expenses I incurred for hiding.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you run away and hide?

MR MBHELE: The police were searching for me high and low.

CHAIRPERSON: For this and for other matters?

MR MBHELE: If I'm not mistaken, they were looking for me with regards to this incident and the incident of the three soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: And you got R2 000,00 out of the people for this one?

MR MBHELE: I wanted this amount of cash for the expenses I incurred whilst I was in the process of hiding.

CHAIRPERSON: Right. Perhaps this would be a convenient stage to take the adjournment. You're going on to a new matter?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but just one question, sir, before ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Mbhele, after you killed the Transkei Defence Force members, did you not receive some amount of money for that act?

MR MBHELE: No, not even a cent.

MR MAPOMA: Did you not tell, sir - please sir, before I ask this question, I would like to have your very honest answer - did you not tell anyone that you were paid R3 000,00 for this act?

MR MBHELE: No, I did not receive any money. Who would have paid me? I had dedicated my life for the protection of our members. Whoever told you that must be making this up. I think they are just trying to fool you. I was actually involved in a political war, I was not being hired, I was not paid, I had just dedicated my life. The people from Mbovini know this. I just received donations from whoever, but I did not demand any cash from the people.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now adjourn till 2 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: (Continued) Mr Mbhele, let us deal with the ambush on Mr Makubane. Who gave you the instructions to conduct the ambush?

MR MBHELE: I got that from Commander Mbezi.

MR MAPOMA: What actually did he instruct you to do?

MR MBHELE: I was not alone.

MR MAPOMA: Who were you with?

MR MBHELE: I was in the company of some unknown people from Durban, who had arrived with Dlamini.

MR MAPOMA: How many were they?

MR MBHELE: If I'm not mistaken, I think there were five of us, that's if I'm not mistaken.

MR MAPOMA: And what actually were you instructed to do?

MR MBHELE: To shoot Makubane.

MR MAPOMA: And just explain how did you do this ambush?

MR MBHELE: We conducted it at Dlamini's house, the one from NPA, and the vehicle was Dlamini's as well. The colour is sort of brown, just like the floor, the Cressida, and they left us there.

MR MAPOMA: Was it driven by Dlamini?

MR MBHELE: Yes, he dropped us there and drove back, and we followed on foot.

MR MAPOMA: Who is Dlamini, what is his actual - his first name?

MR MBHELE: I have forgotten his name, but he worked for NPA.

MR LAX: He worked for the Provincial Administration?

MR MBHELE: NPA, the road constructors, he occupied a senior position there, I don't know what it was.

MR LAX: Which depot was he at?

MR MBHELE: Not too far away from High Flats.

MR MAPOMA: And where was Mkhize when you went to conduct the ambush?

MR MBHELE: He was not present, we left him behind. We left all alone.

MR MAPOMA: Did you use only one vehicle?

MR MBHELE: Yes, one vehicle, a Cressida. They dropped us and there, they left us in other words at an intersection, the Mazabegwene route, which leads you to Mr Makubane's house. Indeed he appeared with people on board his car going towards the different direction and we left him alone, and as we came back, we blocked him, we tried to shoot him, but we failed, we did not succeed, only the car got shot.

MR MAPOMA: When you shot him, where yourself were you actually, what position were you assuming, we you in front of the car or beside the car?

MR MBHELE: This is the road I'm demonstrating to you, we approached from the side, we did not come right in front of the car, we approached the car from the side, as it is a wide intersection and there will be one route leading to his house and the other leading to the opposite direction. So we were at that spot.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. With your permission, chairperson, I'm moving to another incident. Now in the matter of Mr Mzimango, you have said in your statement, your affidavit in fact, that you did not know Mr Mzimango?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I did not know him, I only got to know him when he arrived looking for people who will go and assassinate a white man with big eyes, or light in complexion with big eyes, and yet another who was a friend.

MR MAPOMA: He arrived where?

MR MBHELE: At Chief Dlamini's home, that's where he arrived at.

MR MAPOMA: And to whom did he speak to, whom did he speak to?

MR MBHELE: Upon his first arrival, he was left in the car and Khumalo went in, he's known as Gunzi, the first time that is, and they spoke to Mabesa on the side. I did not know as to what they were discussing about, but subsequent to that, I was instructed to go with - accompany Mr Khumalo, go along with him, but I'm not too sure if Mabesa knew that we're now going to hit Gwabe, because when I told him about this, he was not comfortable about it and he did not like it.

MR MAPOMA: Now, on the first visit, you say Mr Mzimango was left in the car, when actually did you ...(intervention).

MR MBHELE: It was muddy and it was raining, he was left in the car.

MR MAPOMA: And when actually did you meet him?

MR MBHELE: I found him in Mr Khumalo's car.

MR MAPOMA: During that first visit?

MR MBHELE: Yes, the first visit, and I went with him, and as we were going, we took his car, a Cressida, it was at Khumalo's house. Before we left, Khumalo asked as to how much I will want, and that got me confused, because I did not think that was appropriate of him to ask me that kind of a question, because first of all I did not know what was happening, and I told him "I'm lost, I don't know what's happening, and you should know better than me, because you are my senior, age-wise, position-wise in the hierarchy of the organisation, you are my senior". We got into Mzimango's car and we drove off and as we were on the way, Mr ...(indistinct) said he does not think it will be ideal for me to execute this plan alone, I have to have some company. Then he asked me as to who could accompany me or help me execute the plan, the one that I trust. I don't remember whether I said it's Kabuso or Nkosi to him, but I told him that I trust those and we now got into his car. On the way, I met Mabesa. I'm not too sure in whose company he was, and he saw Mabesa. It was his first encounter with Mabesa that day, and I asked one boy to accompany me to go with to look after this troublesome person, because he had bodyguards, and I got hold of Mtuzlamini and we got there at night, we spent some night there, and in the morning he gave me R5,00, Mzimango that is and said to me I should get into the store and buy a pack of cigarettes, and if I happen to find him, I must there and then shoot him, and when I got there, I realised that this is the shop I've once came to with Mabesa and I realised that that was his friend, Gwabe, I knew him. I could not execute the action due to that, and then I said the person I'm supposed to be killing has gotten into the car and told them that therefore I could not be able to kill him or to shoot him, and we followed the car, the very car that I pointed, and we could not get close to it until we were dropped at Mazabegwene and I told Mabesa the whole truth, and I told him that that person we were supposed to kill is the person that you know very well and owns a shop there, and Mabesa responded and said, "He's not ANC", and I assured him that this is the very man that I was instructed to kill, and we discovered later on that the trouble was brought by Mzimango, he wanted to use us as instruments in killing this person because of their own personal vendettas.

MR MAPOMA: Was Mzimango a member of the IFP?

MR MBHELE: No, he was not. He was not an IFP member.

MR MAPOMA: And Khumalo was a member of the IFP, is it so?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's right.

MR MAPOMA: But could you just explain, how come that an arrangement is made to kill somebody on behalf of the IFP on the instructions of a person, or suggestion of a person who is not even IFP, how come did that just happen?

MR MBHELE: I will explain, this is very easy, a piece of cake, I could approach the ANC area and claim to be part of ANC and there will be another IFP who we will be looking for, and they don't have time now to ascertain as to whether I'm telling the truth or what's happening, and if you were a citizen, or rather a civilian of Kwazulu-Natal, you will understand perfectly well, and please don't take any offence on this, maybe you know then very well what I'm talking about.

MR MAPOMA: You know, Mr Mbhele, the instructions I've got from the Mzimango family, they are here, they say Mr Mzimango had nothing to do with politics, he just an ordinary teacher who was conducting a business in his area and had no involvement in politics whatsoever, he was a man who was heading a youth choir in church, those are my instructions, and had nothing to do whatsoever with the politics?

MR MBHELE: If his wife is present, then she will be my witness that I came to her house with a certain boy, the two of us, if she's prepared to tell the truth, she witnessed this and she saw us, the two of us, and in our possession we had what kinds of firearms, that she can be able to tell, Mr Mzimango had in his possession AK47, now that's surprising to me, how could a minister have in his possession AK47? That's what puzzling, how can a minister have AK in his hands?

MR MAPOMA: Now, sir, are you saying when you went to conduct the attack you started at his wife's place?

MR MBHELE: Yes, we started there. There was a tuckshop that she was running. I got inside the house with the boy I was with. The wife knows me very well, I'm not inventing this, but I'm telling you facts, it's not even an opinion, we got there and she gave us some food, we ate, and early in the morning we left, we drove off, even before early hours of the morning we went to Mazabegwene to fetch a bakkie. We could not use his car because his car was well-known in the area, Mzimango's Cressida, now we had to go get a van or a bakkie in Mazabegwene, and we came back driving now in a different car, and it was not known in the area, the car that is.

MR MAPOMA: Now is it your evidence that Mr Mzimango's wife knew about the arrangement to kill Mr Gwabe?

MR MBHELE: Although I'm not certain about this, but she did see us in possession of these firearms, although I'm not sure if she knew what we were up to, because according to us, in our culture we never divulge such information to the women, but then I don't know, in his case, maybe he does tell the wife as well as to what is happening.

MR MAPOMA: Okay. Now, after you killed Mr Mzimango, you say your commander instructed that you obtain his private parts? Do you recall that?

MR MBHELE: Please understand this perfectly well, I did explain that he did not tell that to me, I only heard from Delani, Delani said he was sent by Mabesa to conduct that, but Mabesa never said that to me. I will be picking up on him, I just heard from Delani that he was instructed to do that, but not me.

MR MAPOMA: Who is Delani, is it Delani Dlamini?

MR MBHELE: Very true, and he's in New Prison, in Maritzburg Prison.

MR MAPOMA: And Mulingezi?

MR MBHELE: He's also in New Prison, Pietermaritzburg.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Who's the second person you said was also in New Prison?

MR MBHELE: Mulingezi.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said there was only a young boy with you? Where did these other two come from? You told us you left with a young boy, and you spent the night with a young boy at her house, where did these other two suddenly come from?

MR MBHELE: They appeared when Mzimango was coming from court(?). He came to fetch us so we could be a bigger group, then we can execute the action, then we are four of us sitting in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR MAPOMA: So is it your evidence that your commander instructed you to kill Mr Mzimango because Mr Mzimango wanted your commander's friend to be killed?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's true.

MR MAPOMA: And you cannot say that Mr Mzimango was necessarily an ANC member, can you say that?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I would say this, because he had AK in his possession. You see if you appear with AK, to me that symbolises that you definitely are questionable.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but AK does not mean ANC necessarily. I mean the armed robberies were conducted by AK, the pure criminal acts were conducted by use of AK, without necessarily being ANC related. Please explain this?

MR MBHELE: Let me, you know I would like, let's establish one thing, who brought AK here in Kwazulu-Natal, is it IFP or ANC, please let's first establish that fact, here in KZN, who brought that?

MR MAPOMA: Sir please, I'm not going to answer questions to you, mine is to ask you questions and you have to answer my questions, please sir, understand that, I'm not trying to insult you in any way, but your place is to answer to my questions. You are saying to the Committee that Mr Mzimango was carrying an AK47 and for that reason you could assume that he was ANC. Is that the only reason why you said he was ANC?

MR MBHELE: According to my knowledge, please don't give up on this, each time I see the sight of AK, I will know for sure, beyond reasonable doubt, that that is ANC man. Once you appear to my presence with AK, then I will know, where there's robberies and murderers and whatever, then I cannot help you with that regard, but one thing I know is that the ANC is using AK47. Please don't take any offence on this. I'm very sorry, I'm not intending to offend you.

MR MAPOMA: Yes sir, but sir, what I want to suggest to you is that the reason why Mr Mzimango was killed, from your version, is because Mr Mzimango attempted to have Mr Gwabe killed, Mr Gwabe who was a personal friend of your commander, and that had nothing to do with politics. That's my suggestion, sir, what do you say to that?

MR MBHELE: He was his friend, yes, and he had IFP member, and Mabesa told me that he was the IFP, he did not say he's a friend only, Gwabe that is. In other words, he tried to use us as instruments to kill another IFP not knowing the true facts. I just hope that this goes down well with you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir, let's proceed to the murder of Tulaphute Dlamini. You have, in your evidence in chief, considered that the matter of Tulaphute was a personal issue between yourselves and had nothing to do with politics. Do you understand that/

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's very true.

MR MAPOMA: And then about the killing of this young boy at Emadunga in 1993, your evidence is that you killed him because he went around the community demanding R50,00, firstly saying that you were the person who wanted this R50,00. Is that not the case?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's true.

MR MAPOMA: And in a way he was blackmailing your name, that's how you felt, is it so?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's true.

MR MAPOMA: And you killed him because you did not want your name to be, your image to be tarnished by this young boy, is that so?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's true.

MR MAPOMA: I suggest that you killed him because you wanted to protect your personal image, not because there were politics in this matter?

MR MBHELE: What you're saying I will not dispute. I will not go further arguing with you with regard to this matter, I'm only asking for forgiveness, or rather applying for amnesty, because I'm bringing to the commission's attention the acts I conducted.

MR MAPOMA: Yes sir, yes sir, I appreciate that very well, understand me correctly, I appreciate that, but sir, for you to be granted amnesty, you must be granted amnesty for acts that were politically motivated.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he just say he's not applying for amnesty, he's rather asking for forgiveness?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, chairperson, I didn't get well, thank you sir, thank you very much. Now let us go to the murder of Mr Langeza, and your evidence is that you did not murder Mr Langeza nor were you part to that, is that so?

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's true, I did not murder Mr Langeza.

MR MAPOMA: All you did was to be part of the people who abducted him?

MR MBHELE: Very true. We were two of us who went to fetch him.

MR MAPOMA: Who else was there?

MR MBHELE: It was myself and another one who used to work as a driver at Avis car rental company.

MR MAPOMA: What is his name, sir?

MR MBHELE: I've forgotten his surname, but I did not know at any rate the name, I refer to him with his surname, not a name.

MR MAPOMA: And what is the surname that you referred to him to?

MR MBHELE: Unfortunately this is the one I'm trying to recall. He was the owner of the car that we were driving in.

MR MAPOMA: Was he a resident at the same area as Mr Langeza?

MR MBHELE: Yes, he was Mazabegwene civilian, or resident.

MR MAPOMA: And Mr Langeza was a member of the IFP, is that so?

MR MBHELE: He claimed that, according to him.

MR MAPOMA: No sir, the instructions I've got from the family are that Mr Langeza was a leader of the IFP in his area?

MR MBHELE: There is nothing like that, that's a blue lie, he never was a leader even at once. He would come with ANC men to abduct IFP members and kill those men like dogs. Never was he even for once a leader. This is my first encounter with this kind of information.

MR MAPOMA: Did you know his family, the family members?

MR MBHELE: I will not even be able to point at any person and say he was part of his family or a family member.

MR MAPOMA: Are you aware that after he was killed, his homestead was burnt to ashes?

MR MBHELE: I did see that after a few months when I was passing going to Mbovini, I realised that the house was burnt down, and I did not even investigate further to find out as to who was behind this or who conducted that.

MR MAPOMA: And his livestock and all his family members were driven away, in fact his livestock was stolen by those who burnt the place. Are you aware of that?

MR MBHELE: That much I don't know. This is the first time I hear this information, that his livestock was even confiscated, or stolen rather, I never knew this.

MR MAPOMA: And his body, the body of Mr Langeza was burnt to ashes by those who killed him. Did you know that?

MR MBHELE: That I did not know. I do know that he was killed.

MR MAPOMA: But you gave evidence that he was taken to the bushes and killed, and later on you saw fire in the bushes?

MR MBHELE: I did not see fire, but I saw smoke.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

MR MBHELE: I did not know then therefore, I did see the smoke.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, thank you for that, I'm sorry for the mistake. The family of Mr Langeza are here, in fact his mother is here, his brothers, two brothers, are here, and they are eager to know why their loved one was killed and burnt to ashes, and why their home was burnt down and their livestock taken away. Are you able to explain?

MR MBHELE: I'm not able to explain with regards to that, but he arrived with people and took three boys, one Xhosa boy and Zulu boys, two Zulu boys, they took those boys with. What he died for, he was crucified for that sin, to keep abducting from this area and will be in ANC company, abduct people and kill them. I think that he suffered for that mainly. He was seen by one of the residents, because he came and knocked at the door, but once again, I would like to apologise, because I abducted, I did take part in abducting the man and I'm apologising for that, although I did not lay my hand insofar as killing him, but abducting, yes I did take part.

MR MAPOMA: Where did you get this information about him, the allegations about him?

MR MBHELE: Together with this driver that we were driving in, we heard from a certain lady who got married to either Zumu or Phosa, that she saw, she saw him definitely, they arrived at Phosa's and asked for Phosa's gun, and Phosa was a ZP member, and they told him that there's no gun and they took one boy from Phosa's with.

MR MAPOMA: Now you abducted him and took him to the chief's kraal, is that correct?

MR MBHELE: Not the chief's kraal, but at the chief's house, at the chief's house. You see, the kraal will be where the livestock will be kept, so we took the men to the chief's house.

MR MAPOMA: And to whom did you hand him over when you brought him to the chief's house?

MR MBHELE: As they were discussing with him, he got aggressive, and I tried to fight him, but then one man by the name of Khumane tried to stop me, he's my cousin, he stopped me from fighting him and I left him alone, I went back into the house. Suddenly I heard that he was trying to escape and I got out and saw that he was trying indeed to escape, and the gang ran after him until they captured him.

MR MAPOMA: Who are these members of the gang you are talking about?

MR MBHELE: This happened too long ago, I've forgotten the names, this transpired a long time ago. Please do keep in mind that I was not from that area, so I will not be in a position to know their names very well, I was not born in that area, I only came at that time to give assistance.

MR MAPOMA: And where was the chief?

MR MBHELE: If I'm not mistaken, I think he was in another house, not necessarily that one, because he had many houses, the chief that is, he was not present at the time. Chief Malindabe was not present at that particular house, and if my memory serves me well, he had about three houses, so he was not present at the time.

MR MAPOMA: Now let us go to the murder of Mr Reggie Gadebe, the assassination of him. Are you applying for amnesty at all in relation to that assassination?

MR MBHELE: No, I also told Mr Mbase that I'm not going to do that, because I did not take part in that. Musi Mbata will be my witness in this.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.

MR MBHELE: I'm talking about things that I did, or I conducted.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, I have no further questions. Thanks.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anybody among the public who is not represented by Mr Mapoma who wishes to ask the applicant any questions? Will you come forward please, and the lady there. I think it would be more convenient if they could borrow one of these microphones. Is there room? If you all moved up a little, is there room next to - send them one at a time that they can - wait there please on the right. Can you put a microphone - oh fine. Name?

MS DLAMINI: My names, I am Maphuthalenza's wife. I would like to pose questions to the man about the atrocities he committed in the community, killing my husband and now leaving my kids orphaned. In all the things he said about Maphuta, that he brought police, I will like to refute all of that. I would like to pose this question, today I find myself destitute, I don't have my husband with me, my kids are not at school, I am suffering financially and other ways. My husband was killed and you came as if you were coming to sympathise with me and yet you know very well that you were furthering evil.

MR MBHELE: Please forgive me lady, lady please forgive me.

MS DLAMINI: What ...(indistinct) did killing my child? He was just arriving on Friday from Durban, got out at 8:00 a.m. Saturday morning to go to the neighbour's house, and never therefore returned since. At 8:00 p.m. at night, when we were sleeping, we heard a gunshot and he was not present in my house and the war was rife in Mbovini area that evening, he never came back, my child that is.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I explain please that if you want to give evidence, you will be given the opportunity to give evidence. If you give your names in to Mr Mapoma, he will arrange the order in which you give evidence. This now is merely if you wish to ask any specific questions. Do you understand?

MS DLAMINI: And he did not come back, my child that is, he was shot at the neighbour's house.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your name?

MS TOLLE: My name is Balansele. My request ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, we didn't get your surname please?

MS TOLLE: My surname is Tolle, my surname is Tolle.

CHAIRPERSON: Your son's name?

MS TOLLE: Is Mande. We will like to ask one question to you, Sosha, that why did you kill my son, that's what I would like to know. As you were killing him, what will you tell me the reason was for that action, what did you see my son do that he deserves to be killed.

MR MBHELE: Lady, I will start from scratch, I was instructed by Nkosi Mbele that there are people who had KK or AK47 in their possession and they're at Twasa's house - please be patient - I was instructed by Nkosi, your very neighbour, he came to me at Mabalane's house and there was that conflict at the time and it was, the situation was volatile, and we were told that there were people who had AK and I had to take my gun and rush and charge forward to where the incident was taking place, and I dedicated my life alone, but nevertheless I'm asking for apology and please I am apologising and I'm very sorry, very sorry deeply.

MS TOLLE: My next question, Sosha, how would you ask for forgiveness when you've slaughtered the community of Mbovini?

MR MBHELE: Please explain what you are saying, please explain, I don't understand exactly what you're saying?

MS TOLLE: Well, Sosha, I have this one word for you, you killed my son, for what?

MR MBHELE: I did explain I thought previously that I was instructed to execute that action, there were people who had KK, though he meant AK47, and I'm asking for forgiveness for this, please forgive me.

MS TOLLE: Sosha please, my request is, that Mbele, where did he got hold of you to kill my child?

MR MBHELE: He fetched me from Mabalane's house, Dlamini's house that is, from one house, I don't know how you refer to him as, but I think you know Mabalane's house.

INTERPRETER: Yes, the lady apparently knows.

MR MBHELE: Yes, Mabalane also is witness to this, because I was there in his house, relaxing in his house, and he came to fetch me.

MS TOLLE: Sosha, when Mbeli arrived to you at your place where you were, who did you kill my son with?

MR MBHELE: I shot him alone, but I was with Bonane and Mkmale, but I was the only one who shot at him.

MS TOLLE: And what did Mbeli say as you were killing?

MR MBHELE: I did try to establish if they knew him and no-one responded. They went down to the camp, it was the court(?), and I did go there as well to try and establish if they knew him, and please forgive me, I was instructed by you, people of the community, that this is what I should undertake, I did not wake up and invent anything or decide to take any action.

MS TOLLE: Sosha, how will we instruct you as a visitor in the area?

MR MBHELE: But you, the people of the community, instructed me and told me about the people as to who is who in the area. I'm not a witchdoctor or a son of a prophet, or a prophet for that matter, to be knowing things that were happening in the area. I could not fold my arms as you were reporting the death and the slaughter in the community, I had to take action and charge forward.

MS TOLLE: Sosha, what did you say to my child getting him out of the house and killing him by the door?

MR MBHELE: There is nothing I can say, I only told him that he must get into the car, but I knew very well that he was going to escape from the car. At the camp, they would have said if they knew him or not, but the people I was with did not know him, and please I'm very sorry, you knew the situation that prevailed at the time and I'm very sorry.

MS TOLLE: I will never give you any forgiveness.

MR MBHELE: Oh please, lady, forgive me.

MS TOLLE: No, I'm not going to forgive you, because you killed my child who was supporting me. Today I'm suffering. You are eating wherever you are, and Sosha I have no-one to support me to date.

MR MBHELE: Please don't return evil by evil, the Bible says that and I'm so sorry about this.

MS TOLLE: Now Sosha, the people with whom you were, why are you hiding them? Please tell us about the people you were with in your company killing and slaughtering the community of Mbovini?

MR MBHELE: No, lady, I was alone, I was not in a company.

MS TOLLE: Sosha, please, you know very well that you had a gang that forced us and coerced us to donate R50,00, in fact not even donate, give out R50,00. We would go to bed without any food because of that.

MR MBHELE: But lady, I killed a man because of the things he did, with regard to those R50,00, because he went around forcing the community to take out R50,00 in my name and I killed him for that.

MS TOLLE: But Sosha you remember when you called us to the chief's court, when you called us to the chief's court and you told us to convene there, and even the aged had to be there, and you made us lie on our stomach and you drew out a gun and you said you will kill all of us and the last one to be killed will be you.

MR MBHELE: Where do you invent that, lady, please now don't lie.

MS TOLLE: I'm talking about the court that you told us to convene at.

MR MBHELE: Please lady, tell the truth here please. Mr Chair, please pardon us, let's have this debate.

MS TOLLE: Now you can go to Mbovini's community, they will tell you the same thing.

MR MBHELE: Please can this be withdrawn, because I have this respect for old ladies and now I'm not prepared to go further with them, they are accusing me of things I don't know, and now they're adding things and putting colours to this and fabricating the whole thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Madam, will you be giving evidence about these incidents?

MR MBHELE: I've been patient enough with you lady.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you be giving evidence about these incidents?

MS TOLLE: I will point out at a witness here.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TOLLE

CHAIRPERSON: I think you've said enough to enable the applicant's counsel to take instructions on these points and to deal with it when you give evidence. I don't think it is necessary for you to continue with this at the present time. Do you think you will be able to get sufficient preparation? You don't need to have it all told to you now before the evidence is given, do you?

MR MATTHEWS: No, Mr Chairman, although I must indicate that it's undoubtedly going to result in an adjournment of this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. What is your name please?

MS MZIMANGO: My name is Daisy Mzimango.

CHAIRPERSON: Now do you want to ask questions or do you want to have an opportunity to give evidence and relate what you say happened?

MS MZIMANGO: I would like to pose questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MS MZIMANGO: I would like to ask this particular question, there's something that's troubling me, that we were called about this applicant, he wants us to forgive him, and as the process was going on, I could not understand some of the things that went on and I don't want to get left behind about the things that he was relaying. I have been expecting that everything that was read to me is going to be said, all of it, in here. Now that some of the things have been omitted, I would like to ask why they have been omitted, because now this is going to make my heart bitter against people who have done nothing against me, if this is not being led in public.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you to say that the applicant has omitted some of the things that happened, that he hasn't made full disclosure?

MS MZIMANGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Ask him about those incidents.

MS MZIMANGO: I would like to ask about the part where he made mention of Teacher Khumalo, ...(indistinct) teacher that is, whom he went to and said my son is ANC member and recruiting ANC members in the area of ...(indistinct) and now he must be killed. Now I'd like to know that part as to this Teacher Khumalo, we know him as Ghonse, where is this originating from, because we heard from the evidence that was read to us that there was something amiss? Secondly, I would like to ask that, at the time before Mr ...(indistinct) will be killed, he was found with AK47, meanwhile I knew that he had a gun, though I don't - I knew that he ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Ask your questions one by one and give the applicant an opportunity to answer them.

MS MZIMANGO: I would like him to explain the issue about Teacher Khumalo from Potchefstroom, who said my, alleged that my son is an ANC member and recruiting ANC members, therefore he should be murdered or killed. That's my question I'm posing to you.

MR MBHELE: I'm certain, lady, that the one who read to you that was read incorrect when he refers to Teacher Khumalo that he came with. The person who told me about this, is this one Mbiza. The fact that he is Khumalo, I don't know that much. That he is Khumalo, that I don't know, and I'm sorry, lady.

MS MZIMANGO: I would like to tell you then, my boy, that I am not a person who like to fight with people. I don't know Teacher Khumalo and I have heard this here that Khumalo alleged that my son should be killed because he was ANC member, recruiting ANC members, and then I responded, and I respond that I never knew him to be any organisation's member except that I know him, I don't know him as IFP member. In fact if you had said he was IFP member, maybe I would have slightly believed you, because he had friends who were IFP members, but now as you are putting it the way or the manner in which you do, as ANC, recruiting ANC members, alleged by Khumalo, I would like to put it to you that I don't believe all of that. Second to that, that I would like to put and emphasize to you ...(intervention).

MR LAX: Just one second. There is a misunderstanding. The allegation is not that your son was recruiting ANC members. The allegation is that the person your son wanted killed was recruiting ANC members. That is the allegation that was made. I'll read you what it says in the affidavit

"Mzimango was unknown to me."

this is on page 23 for the record purposes, paragraph 17:-

"Mr Khumalo, who is the principle at Port Shepstone, came and said he was in the company of someone who wanted that a person who was an ANC member at St Faiths should be shot. He alleged that that person was recruiting ANC members at High Flats."

So the allegation was that your son came with Khumalo and made this allegation about the man who later turned out to be Gwabe.

MS MZIMANGO: I would request the attorney, Mr Mapoma, to read what he read yesterday to me with regards to Khumalo?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, lady, it says, I read in fact what has just been read to you by the Committee member, in fact it is as he has just read it. There may have been a misunderstanding there regarding whatever explanation that I gave, but it is in fact as the Committee member has just read it to you.

MS MZIMANGO: May I comment? Then I would like to comment further and say this Mzimango issue sounds so short, but then it's not like that, for almost three years he was being attacked, shooting him and he will escape and survive those attacks, and he would not even stay at his house and always on the run, running away from the people who were attempting to attack him, but be as it may, from 1992, even the shop he's referring to, they did arrive in a car, driving in a car, in the evening and they shot and shot again, eventually they threw a petrol bomb to this house, and I subsequently heard that the van that was there was Gwabe's van. That puzzles me a great deal. And then my son comes out as a killer. Be as it may, I would like to put it to Mbhele that I am forgiving, it is my duty to forgive him, as well as the other people that were involved in the murder, because they know exactly what was happening. Now that my son is gone, I didn't even want to make a case about it, I didn't even want to know the person who killed him, because it was very painful. Now every Christian, I have got to forgive him, and I've got to forgive everyone involved. It is my duty to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: And I hope that if you - no, come back here - I hope that you find peace after your very Christian action.

MS MZIMANGO: Yes, I will find peace, but then the only problem is that I have no home now. I had to leave my home, which my son built for me, now I'm living in town, I'm having problems at my old age to have to pay for ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Well will you discuss that with Mr Mapoma at the end of today's hearing?

MS MZIMANGO: Thanks.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MZIMANGO

MR MBHELE: I also want to thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, chairperson, I'll take it over myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Name please?

MR MKHIZE: I am Beki Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you the so-called commander?

MR MKHIZE: I am not a commander. I would like to pose some questions to Sosha as to when he first knew Beki?

MR MBHELE: I knew him in 1992.

MR MKHIZE: I also want to ask further as to you knew him in 1992, from where?

MR MBHELE: In Joliverti.

MR MKHIZE: Is he the same Beki that you referred to as commander?

MR MBHELE: Yes, he's the very one.

MR MKHIZE: If he was commander, why did you get there?

MR MBHELE: He was the commander in Mazabegwene and Mbovini, he was our commander.

MR MKHIZE: Commanding you or others, or you plus others?

MR MBHELE: Yes, myself plus others.

MR LAX: Can you just bear in mind, you're hearing the Zulu and you're continuing in Zulu, the poor translators are trying to translate it into English as you're talking. If you can just, to be fair to everyone, just speak a little bit slowly please, and just give them a small opportunity to translate.

INTERPRETER: Thank you, Mr Chair.

MR MKHIZE: How many people are aware of the fact that Beki was the commander?

MR MBHELE: A lot of them know. I know that you've influenced them not to divulge this, because you're going to attack them. I know you very well. I know that you have influenced all of them to say all those things about me, I know you, I've been under you and you cannot fool me. I know that you have actually influenced them to deny that you were the commander, because anyone who can confirm it will not live after today. I know you very well, Mabesa.

MR MKHIZE: Sosha, what I would like to tell the community is that you were a killer, you were even responsible for killing IFP. I don't know you to have been killing ANC members.

MR LAX: Do you want him to answer that? Are you putting that to him as a question, do you want him to respond to your comment? What is your response to that, Mr Mbhele? You see, you mustn't put too much to him, then it's too difficult for him to respond.

MR MBHELE: When I came here, I knew exactly what he is going to say, because when you are in such a situation as I am, you are regarded, or you are put to appear as a criminal. I know a lot of other people who are in prison and have been labelled criminals because of what the situation is now. When I was not in prison, when I was working for them, I was regarded as a comrade, but now that I am in prison and I have a sentence of life imprisonment, I am no longer useful to them. You came here and when you ...(indistinct) stood up, I knew what you were going to say, I knew what's your reason for coming in front was. When we are convicted, nobody admits that they know us, nobody admits that they know us, even in the organisation. I know all of this. When a person is in trouble, they're actually regarded as criminals. Even the people you are with now, if they get into trouble, you will deny any knowledge of them, but if you were to go to the IFP office now and inquire about me, they will tell you about me, I am a card carrying member of the IFP. You are a criminal. You have even acquired a shop, because you have forced people to donate money for ammunition allegedly. I have all the information about you. My family is in trouble because of what happened to me, because I am in prison, but you are free, because of you, whatever you have come for here is not true, because you want to appear to be God in front of the community's eyes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you have made your point, Mr Mbhele, you've made the point you wish to make and I don't think we will go on repeating it.

MR MKHIZE: What I would like to say is that Sosha killed IFP members. We were all afraid of him, even the police were afraid of him.

MR LAX: What do you respond to that, Mr Mbhele?

MR MBHELE: This is the person responsible, he's just afraid of being arrested and convicted. It is all right, Mbezi, but you will never go to heaven, because I have taken blame for your sins, you actually use other people to fulfil your objectives. Your hands are clean because you sent people to do your acts. I do not know how I can explain it. You want to appear to be clean in front of the community.

CHAIRPERSON: You have explained it, I think we're fully aware of the point you're making and I think your counsel will agree with me. If he wishes you to give further evidence on this point, you can do so during re-examination, but I don't think you must continue now.

MR MKHIZE: All the people that you mentioned, Mr Langeza, I do not know him, I have never heard of him. Maphutalenza was actually responsible for ferrying people to come join the IFP, but you say that I sent you to kill this person. You should actually stand for the truth, Sosha.

MR MBHELE: With regards to Langeza as well as Maphutalenza, you should know that he issued the instruction. You have actually influenced them. We are not going to be able to achieve peace if people like you are allowed to continue doing what they do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, I gather from the questions you are putting that you are disputing the evidence given by the applicant, that you are saying he has given untruthful evidence?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you be giving evidence to contradict this, because it's one thing to stand and make a lot of allegations if you are not prepared to support them on oath. Will you be giving evidence, and will you then on oath tell us where he has lied?

MR MKHIZE: I can take the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Matthews, do you want this cross-examination or this diatribe to continue, or should we merely allow Mr Mkhize to give evidence on oath after we have completed the applicant's case, and you will then have your opportunity to ask questions?

MR MATTHEWS: Mr Chairman, I would like him to place his version on affidavit, on oath.

CHAIRPERSON: He won't place it on affidavit, that's quite clear, he'll have to come and give evidence, and then you will be at liberty to ask any questions you wish.

MR MATTHEWS: That is correct, Mr Chairman, but as I've explained, I'm not available to this Committee tomorrow, I would suggest that Mr Mkhize put his version on oath, file his affidavit with the evidence collector of this Committee, together with anybody else who wishes to refute what the applicant has said. It will give us an opportunity to go through these affidavits and properly to prepare, and that this application then be adjourned to a date which can be arranged.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your view, Mr Mapoma, would it help if we adjourned for five minutes and we spoke to the people who are waiting here, to see who would then be prepared to consult with you, which of them would be prepared to consult with you, to make affidavits, whether you can reach agreement, or whether you want for us to sit late and try to hear evidence today, or what the position is? I think - I don't know if you knew this gentleman was coming to give the evidence that he is, it certainly wasn't all put to the applicant, as I understood it, because what is now being suggested is far more than what was put in cross-examination, so perhaps if you could talk to them for a few minutes and try to clarify what the position would be, and if you can talk, counsel talk to one another and decide what the best way of handling this is. We'll adjourn for a few minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: It appears from the questions, if I can call them that, put by the the last questioner, that a number of other issues may arise for decisions. They are obviously not matters that can be settled in a short space of time, they're matters that, as I understand it, both sides, that the applicant and leader of evidence and legal advisers would wish to investigate, and it appears to me, and I have consulted the other members of my Committee, that the fairest thing to do at this stage, in the question of Mbhele's application, would be to adjourn at a date to be arranged, and that I understand, and if it hasn't been done, I want it to be done quickly, that the names and addresses of all those persons who came forward as wanting to ask questions or give evidence will be taken and thereafter our investigators can go and take full statements from them, which can be made available before the adjourned hearing. I also think that we've now got to the stage where the legal advisers can consult with one another as to the amount of time required for the hearing and what would be suitable dates for such hearing, and perhaps also a suitable venue. So I'd like to hear what your attitude towards those suggestions are?

MR MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I agree with Mr Chairman's point of view. The matter will have to be adjourned sine die and I will liaise with the Evidence Leader pertaining to the length of time we require, as well as the venue. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think here where, if statements are taken, they should be made available, because otherwise we could end up with, if they are suddenly sprung on you, with you applying quite naturally for yet another adjournment to investigate them. So it's a matter that you can discuss with one another, there may be some trivial matters. Sorry, your views?

MS ARCHER: I concur with the views of my learned colleague.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, chairperson, I concur with ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, I think that all of you who have been sitting here patiently throughout the three days, two days, sorry, have seen the position that has now arisen. We have members of the community wanting to come forward to make sure that their views are put to the applicant and are heard by the Committee, that they don't want a one-sided version to be given, they want the complete picture to come forward. To enable that to be done, we are going to adjourn the hearing today, it's reached the end of the time it was set down for, and you will be visited.

Your names and addresses have been taken by one of the lawyers working for us, to discuss the question of giving evidence with you, to take statements from you, and to arrange that you will be present at the next hearing where you can ask any questions you may want to, or cause someone else to do that, and you may be able to give evidence, and it is important that all of you who can contribute, and Mr Beki Mkhize raised a number of very interesting points in the course of his questioning, which should be followed up. I think that the questions he raised are ones which require an answer, and we trust you will all co-operate with us to make sure we get the answers.

We are now going to adjourn this matter to a date to be arranged, it shall be some time next year, and I trust that you will all do all you can to help us sort things out properly so we get at the right answer, and thank you all for your patience over the last two days. This matter is accordingly adjourned to a date to be arranged.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MATTER POSTPONED TO DATE TO BE ARRANGED