CHAIRPERSON: We'll now continue with the application of Mr T P Sosibo. When we finished yesterday Mr Sosibo had just concluded his testimony and Ms Padiachey indicated that there were no further witnesses to call and now we turn over to Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Could we just have Mr Peaceland Lubanyana. Just one second, if the Committee bears with me. Mr Chairperson could we just swear the witness in, Mr Peaceland Lubanyana.
NKOSINATHI PEACELAND LUBANYANA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MS REDDY: Mr Peaceland, can you just tell this Committee what is your association with this matter before us today? Could you just proceed?
MR LUBANYANA: Themba Cele was my best friend. I was staying with him and I was also working with him, in fact I was employed by him until his death. When he died he was killed because there were people who tried to rob his car. He ran to the police station to report that there were people who were harassing him and they were trying to rob him and the police in the police station said they didn't have a spare vehicle and they requested that they can use his car to go there. He drove with the police and he pointed the person who robbed him and took R500 from him and when the police called that person, he ran away and the police shot at that person.
After the police had shot at this person, he came back and told me what happened. After a few days, he was killed and then we realised that these people who were killing were paying a revenge because he had pointed to the person who had robbed him.
He was a peaceful person, he was someone who was working with the community, more especially with the shebeens. He was a person who was fetching alcohol from the bottle store and delivering to the shebeens and he didn't have enemies.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Lubanyana, what was his politics? What was his political affiliation, do you know, if any?
MR LUBANYANA: He was not affiliated with any political organisation. He was my best friend and we worked closely. At that time there was just one political organisation which was IFP. Yes the UDF was at its initial stage, but he was never affiliated with any of these political organisations.
ADV SANDI: Yes that may be so. Do you know if there were any perceptions that he was aligned with any political organisation?
MR LUBANYANA: I do not know anything about politics and what I can say is that he as well never associated himself with politics.
ADV SANDI: Do you know if he was suspected of being IFP, you don't know about that?
MR LUBANYANA: No, I don't, I only heard about this for the first time here because he was far from politics. This is the person, I used to stay with him all the time. Sometimes I will sleep over at his place and he never chatted about politics at all to me.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Could you just confirm for us whether you were one of the injured or the victims on the day that the deceased actually died or was rather killed?
MR LUBANYANA: Yes, I was injured because when the people came to his car, I also sustained injuries. I was stabbed eight times on my back and I didn't know why this was happening because I had no enemy, but what was clear to me was that maybe these people were there to rob us, to rob what we had.
MS REDDY: What were you doing in that section of Umlazi on that day in question?
MR LUBANYANA: We were delivering the alcohol in M-Section.
CHAIRPERSON: What sort of vehicle were you driving? Was it a truck or was it a vehicle which is commonly called a bakkie or was it a motor car?
MR LUBANYANA: We were using an Isuzu bakkie. It had a canopy and it also, it was written T V Trouble because that's where he had just bought it from.
MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, clarification can be obtained from page 37 of our bundle, if you may look.
CHAIRPERSON: Page 37
MS REDDY: Yes, I think it’s Exhibit 15 according to my records.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that a photograph of the vehicle, the one with trouble written on it?
MS REDDY: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
MR LUBANYANA: Yes, it was written T V Trouble, because it had been just bought from T V Trouble.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Chairperson. How long were you Mr Cele's friend?
MR LUBANYANA: It was more than 10 years.
MS REDDY: How would you describe the relationship?
MR LUBANYANA: He was like a brother to me because we worked closely together. We would work from 8 o'clock to 8 o'clock p.m. Even when he had problems in his house, he will come to me and we will discuss his problems and he will tell me what his wife said and the opinions. I knew everything about him in his house and I don't think that if he was affiliated with any organisation, he wouldn't have told me. I think he would have told me. He would have tried and recruited me and all I can say is that he was never affiliated with any political organisation.
MS REDDY: ...(indistinct) of the victim that was previously assaulted on the day in question, tell me, are you affiliated to any political organisation?
CHAIRPERSON: At that time?
MR LUBANYANA: No, I was never, at that time.
MS REDDY: What kind of relationship did the deceased share with the community?
MR LUBANYANA: People liked him a lot because wherever he went, people will come to him and they will chat and laugh. After the incident, everyone was shocked and people saw this as criminal actions.
MS REDDY: Did you know Sosibo prior to the incident in question?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is the applicant.
MR LUBANYANA: No, I didn't know him. First time I saw him was on the day when the deceased was killed and later in court and today.
MS REDDY: Are you aware if the deceased knew Sosibo?
MR LUBANYANA: No, I'll say he didn't know him, but the person he knew was the one who was killed by police. He also told me that he went to his home to report about him and he also said to his parents they must discipline the child because they are sharing the same name and he told the parents that he shouldn't rob him, because they are sharing the same name.
MS REDDY: Mr Sosibo, the applicant, said to this Committee that Mr Cele came to his place several times. You being in Mr Cele's presence probably most of the time, did you ever go with the deceased to the applicant's place of residence?
MR LUBANYANA: No, I never went to Mr Sosibo's house, I don't even know where his house is.
MS REDDY: Okay, I'm going to take you right back to 1986 ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you proceed, did you work in the company of the deceased, of Mr Cele every day or did you work separately from him?
MR LUBANYANA: I worked with him after he was robbed. He was my friend before that, but after he was robbed he came to me and he told me that we should work together because he had been robbed by a certain boy from Cele family and he had gone to the family of the boy to talk about this incident, he went there with his brother, not with me.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry what I can't understand, maybe I've misheard somewhere along the line, but my impression was that that incident involving Nkosinathi Cele, the other Cele that you talk about, took place on the 20th of June which was some 6 weeks before the incident in which Mr Themba Cele died, that being the 7th of August and my impression was, at that incident on the 20th of June when the other Mr Cele, Nkosinathi Cele, was shot and killed, now if that is the robbery you're talking about, why would someone go to a person who's been killed and say: "You must discipline your son", if the son's not a live? I don't know if I misheard.
MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, can I just address the Committee? There were two robberies.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so let's get some dates here then. We've heard about an incident, I won't call it a robbery because the applicant has denied that, but there was an incident involving Mr Themba Cele and the police and Mr Nkosinathi Cele. There was shooting and Mr Nkosinathi Cele died and that was on or about the 20th of June 1986. Now which robbery are you talking about, Mr Lubanyana, the one where you started working together with him after the robbery, when did that take place in relation to the 20th of June 1986?
MR LUBANYANA: He was robbed once and they took R500. In fact he wasn't in his car. He sent his brother to go and deliver and R500 was taken from the car and then he was also not present in that incident, but his brother and others who were with his brother when they went to deliver, came back and told him that they had taken R500 and later, it was only once when they took the R500.
CHAIRPERSON: Now when was that, more or less, that the R500 was taken? What month of what year?
MR LUBANYANA: It was in 1986, somewhere in June, because he passed away in August.
CHAIRPERSON: But now we've heard from Ms Reddy that there were two robberies.
MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, the was one on the 11th of June 1986, if I may just clarify. The second was the attempted robbery.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So you only started working for him after the 11th of June 1986?
MR LUBANYANA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Reddy.
ADV SANDI: Just one thing which is not very clear to me. When Nkosinathi Cele was killed, were you already working for him at that stage?
MR LUBANYANA: When he was robbed, he was just my friend, but I hadn't started working for him then. After he was robbed, he came to me and told me that he had been robbed and he said to me he will remove the young boys who robbed and he will start working with me. Before he died we talked about this, that what the police had done by shooting the person who had robbed, then I suspected that his friends would come after him, but he said no, they won't come after him because this was done by the police, not by him.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Chairperson. What I actually need you to do now, I know you were part of the killing, not part of the killing but you were there, the eye witness when the deceased was killed and you yourself were directly injured. Could you just briefly and very briefly, describe to us what happened? And to be more specific, sorry, just tell us what role the applicant played.
MR LUBANYANA: I saw the applicant because we parked the car outside and I alighted the car and I went to the house where we were going to deliver the alcohol and then I saw boys who were carrying ...(indistinct) boxes and they went straight to the car and I saw them and I said to Themba: "Careful, it looks like there are people behind your car." At that time the applicant was walking towards his door and he threw the petrol, which was inside those ...(indistinct) boxes, on the deceased and then when we tried to run, then his friends came and they all poured petrol and he was now burning and I ran away and some of them came after me and they started stabbing me and I lost consciousness and later I regained my consciousness and I tried to walk towards the car and I saw that he was lying there, he had been burned to death and I went to another house to make a call to the police so that they will come and help us. As we were in that house, my family came and they took me to Prince Moshieni Hospital, but there were quite a number of people around Themba and also those who were with me, they were quite a number, they started stabbing me inside the house until outside the house when I tried to run away.
MS REDDY: What, in your opinion, was the motive of the killing of the deceased?
MR LUBANYANA: They wanted to rob us and when I gained consciousness I tried to walk towards the car, I looked for the money which was inside the car and I realised that there was no longer any money and I think there was R4 000 in that car and the dashboard had been opened and I realised that they had already taken that money. I think they were just robbing.
MS REDDY: Are you talking about the day that the deceased was killed?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, quite clearly, Ms Reddy.
MR LUBANYANA: Yes.
MS REDDY: Do you wish to state anything further to this Committee?
MR LUBANYANA: Yes, what I can say to the Committee is that I would understand if they came here to ask for forgiveness because they've realised that what they've done was bad, not to come here and implicate Themba, because Themba was not affiliated with any political organisation, but then now they come here and they lie, this makes one angry because he was never like that, I don't think this is right, what he's doing.
MS REDDY: No further questions, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS REDDY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Reddy. Ms Padiachey do you have any questions you would like to ask?
MS PADIACHEY: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PADIACHEY: Mr Lubanyana, you've indicated that at this time you were living with the deceased, Mr Cele, at his home and that you had in fact been working with him and helping him deliver his alcohol in the township after his robbery. That is correct?
MR LUBANYANA: Yes.
MS PADIACHEY: And at this time, would you say that there was unrest in the area, in the townships, in the 1980's?
MR LUBANYANA: No, there was no unrest in his section but we had heard that in M-Section there was unrest and there were boys who were toyi-toying, but there were never any bad incidents at the time.
CHAIRPERSON: In what section was Mr Cele when he was killed? You know, where did the attack take place, in what section, when the petrol was poured over him, where was he?
MR LUBANYANA: M.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Padiachey.
MS PADIACHEY: Thank you Mr Chairman. Would you say that at this time, as you've indicated, that there was unrest in M-Section and where you were living with Mr Cele in his section of the township, would you say that there was violence, or was it peaceful?
MR LUBANYANA: We will hear that in other sections car which were coming from town, were being robbed by boys, township boys, but we thought that since we were not from town and we were not driving white men's cars, then we were not going to be robbed.
MS PADIACHEY: Mr Lubanyana, you've indicated that you had lived with the deceased Mr Cele at his home. Would you say that the area that the deceased lived in was an IFP stronghold or was it mainly UDF?
MR LUBANYANA: I wouldn't be able to differentiate which sections were predominantly IFP or UDF, because what I can say is that the whole of Umlazi, I wouldn't be able to divide it and say this are or this section is UDF and this is IFP because the whole of Umlazi initially there were just residents and councillors, I wouldn't be able to say or divide it into two because I never associated myself with politics, therefore I don't know how it happened.
MS PADIACHEY: You have indicated to this Committee this morning that the IFP was the majority and the UDF was coming up, is that correct?
MR LUBANYANA: Yes, there were IFP, but there was no violence, one would never hear anything or any talks about violence.
MS PADIACHEY: Would you recall if there was a state of emergency in the area?
MR LUBANYANA: No, I don't remember.
MS PADIACHEY: Lubanyana, you indicated that you were working with the deceased after he had been robbed or attacked and would it be correct to say that you only started living with him after his alleged robbery, or was it before?
MR LUBANYANA: I stayed with him before. After he was robbed, then I started working with him, but he was someone I would be with most of the time. I was not working for him, I only started working for him after he was robbed.
MS PADIACHEY: You've indicated also that according to your knowledge the motive of the killing was purely to have robbed you and Mr Cele of your liquor or perhaps the cash on that day. Would it not also be correct to say that perhaps you were not perhaps sure if there was any other motive related to the incident as most of the time you were not with the deceased?
MR LUBANYANA: The way I know him and the way his family know him, I will say the motive was that they wanted to take money, they wanted to rob him and take money and kill him, that's all. We don't know any other reason.
MS PADIACHEY: Just one last question, Mr Lubanyana. According to your knowledge and at the time of the incident, of the alleged killing of Mr Cele, would it be correct to say that if any person was associated with the UDF, that their association would perhaps have been a silent association or that they would not have wanted people to have known that they were associated to that affiliation?
MR LUBANYANA: I wouldn't be able to say what people are affiliated with because all we were interested in was to work and have money, just to work for our families. We don't know what other people were thinking, but since he was someone who was too close to me, he would have told me because we used to tell each other secrets, I don't think that he would have not told me. I think he was robbed because they just wanted his money.
MS PADIACHEY: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PADIACHEY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Padiachey. Ms Thabethe, any questions?
MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Mr Lubanyana, how many people attacked you that day when Mr Cele was killed?
CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about participated in the attack or him in particular?
MS THABETHE: People who participated in the attack? People who were involved?
CHAIRPERSON: How many people were involved in the attack upon both yourself and Mr Cele on the 7th of August, can you give an estimation?
MR LUBANYANA: I think the four of them came to me and I think five went to Mr Cele. I think there were between 8 and 9.
MS THABETHE: Besides the people who attacked you, were there any other people who were involved maybe in shouting, or who were watching what was happening, that is members of the community?
MR LUBANYANA: Members of the community, some of them came out from their houses and they were quiet. They just watched and there was also another neighbour, a girl from the neighbourhood, who came out and shouted that: "There is someone, there is someone, come after him" and the whole community was quiet and they were just watching and the reason I got help, I went to another house, neighbourhood house and I asked to use their phone. They didn't do anything.
MS THABETHE: Thank you. Were you present in court in the trial?
MR LUBANYANA: Yes, I was.
MS THABETHE: From the Judgment, actually at page 11 of the bundle the Summary of Substantial Facts, there's an indication that on Monday, it's paragraph 2
"On Monday the 20th of July 1996 at about 7 there was a meeting held where a decision was taken that Themba Cele should be killed."
And also on page 16 of the Judgment there's an indication from the Judge that there was a witness who also spoke about this meeting where a decision was taken that Themba Cele should be killed.
Now my question is, you've indicated in your evidence that people loved Mr Themba Cele and also they watched whilst you were being beaten up, my question is, why didn't they try to help? Would you know why they just watched and didn't help, since they loved him so much?
MR LUBANYANA: A number of people who watched this were females. Males were at work because it was during the week and during the day. Mostly they were females and children who were around during the day.
MS THABETHE: With regard to Nkosinathi Cele, you've said that he used to throw stones at the deceased's car, is that correct?
MR LUBANYANA: Yes, that's correct.
MS THABETHE: Did he attempt to rob him in any way, besides throwing the stones?
MR LUBANYANA: He had already robbed him when he did this or when he threw stones in his car and he had already gone to his parents and reported this and when he was driving, he would hear a stone being thrown in his car and he will notice that it was him.
MS THABETHE: When you say Nkosinathi Cele had robbed him before, are you talking about the first robbery?
CHAIRPERSON: R500.
MS THABETHE: Sorry, are you talking about the first robbery when he was robbed R500?
MR LUBANYANA: Yes, the R500 incident.
MS THABETHE: I just want you to clear something for me. You have indicated earlier on when we were talking about that first robbery that Mr Themba Cele was not there when this robbery took place.
CHAIRPERSON: But it sounds like perhaps robbery might be the wrong word. What I gather was that the brother was near the car and Mr Themba Cele was away from the vehicle and then the money was taken from the vehicle. I don't know if it was a robbery or a theft but that doesn't matter, you can ask the question.
MS THABETHE: Yes, I just want to find out how do you know that it was Nkosinathi Cele who conducted this robber or theft because Themba Cele was not there, there were children around who were there, so how do you know that it's actually Nkosinathi Cele who did that robber or theft?
MR LUBANYANA: Themba Cele's brother knew Nkosinathi because when he went to report this to Themba, I wasn't present and Themba as well wasn't present but Themba's brother pointed out to Nkosinathi as the one who's taken the money.
MS THABETHE: The last aspect of my questions, with regard to the violence, the political violence during 1985,86,87, you've indicated that there was no political violence ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well, we're only really concerned with 86 aren't we. We needn't talk about 87.
MS THABETHE: I just want to highlight that it was during that time.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, 1986 when this took place.
MS THABETHE: Yes. You've indicated that you don't remember any political upheaval or violence at Umlazi except that there were cars that were coming from town that were involved. Do you know why these cars were robbed, the cars that were coming from town?
MR LUBANYANA: If the situation was too bad at Umlazi at that time, we wouldn't have worked at Umlazi because we were working in all the sections in Umlazi.
MS THABETHE: Sorry Mr Lubanyana, I'm asking about the cars that were coming from town that were robbed. Do you know how it came about that there was such a practice that cars coming from town were robbed?
MR LUBANYANA: This is what we knew, that those were the only cars which were robbed.
ADV SANDI: Do you know why this was happening? Why these commercial cars were being robbed?
MR LUBANYANA: We were confused as to why they were being burned. We were also shocked. We just looked at these things and we didn't do anything about it, we didn't know what was going on.
MS THABETHE: You didn't know about consumer and rent boycotts that were happening at that time in the townships?
MR LUBANYANA: Yes, I do know about consumer boycotts and boycotting busses, I knew that, but it was something that had nothing to do with us.
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination Ms Reddy?
MS REDDY: No, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS REDDY
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions Mr Malan?
MR MALAN: Just the one question. When you went to make that phone call, how far was that from the scene where Themba Cele was killed and you attacked? Did you have to walk far away, or was it right on the spot?
MR LUBANYANA: I didn't go too far, I went to a certain house which was opened and I got inside.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you indicate a distance here? How far from where the vehicle was to the house that you went?
MR MALAN: Is it to the end of the hall or is it further?
MR LUBANYANA: I will say Themba was here and I was lying at the end of the hall and when I woke up there, I walked outside to another house and the woman said: "No, no, no, not in my house" and I went to another house and then in that house that woman helped me use her phone.
MR MALAN: Did the people watching say anything after you had been attacked and the attackers had fled?
MR LUBANYANA: I only heard one female saying that it was sad what happened to us and she also said that it is better because it is so fortunate because I survived.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi?
ADV SANDI: Just one question, Mr Chairman. Mr Lubanyana, tell me as these people were attacking you, did they say anything by word of mouth? What were they saying? Did they give you reasons for attacking you?
MR LUBANYANA: They were quiet, they didn't say anything.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising, Ms Reddy?
MS REDDY: No, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS REDDY
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Padiachey?
MS PADIACHEY: No, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PADIACHEY
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: No, Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lubanyana, thank you. That concludes your evidence, you may step down now. Ms Reddy.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, could we call the brother of the deceased, namely Bongani Cele to testify?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
BONGANI KLOPPERS CELE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MS REDDY: Can you tell me whether the deceased, Mr Cele, belonged to any political organisation, according to your knowledge?
MR CELE: No, he was not affiliated with any political organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: Before we proceed Ms Reddy, perhaps - are you the blood brother of the deceased, Mr Themba Cele?
MR CELE: Yes, I am.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
MS REDDY: What type of relationship did your brother share with the community?
MR CELE: He was well-liked in the community.
MS REDDY: Did your brother and you share the same house?
MR CELE: Yes, we did.
MS REDDY: What type of work was your brother involved in?
MS CELE: He used to sell liquor to the community and he would use his vehicle to do this.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Reddy, if I may just interpose while it's in my mind. Was your brother married?
MR CELE: Yes, he was.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he have children?
MR CELE: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: How many children did he have?
MR CELE: Five children.
CHAIRPERSON: Did they all live together in the same house which you shared with him?
MR CELE: Yes, they did.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Sorry, Ms Reddy, you can proceed.
MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Okay, it's going to be really difficult for me to ask you this question because at this stage we don't know whether it's alleged robbery or whether it was an attack or whether it was theft but at one time you were personally involved, could you just tell me a little bit about that incident?
MR CELE: Yes, I can. On a particular day our vehicle was robbed and on that day my brother had requested somebody else to drive the vehicle because he was committed elsewhere. I was with that person in the car and we were robbed at M-Section. The people who robbed us wore balaclavas therefore I couldn't identify their faces. They robbed us of R500 which was the money that we had managed to make for the day as well as the remainder of the liquor in the vehicle. We returned home and reported to my brother about the incident. My brother and myself then went to the section of M and the community was requested as to whether they had any knowledge with regards to the incident and some people identified Nkosinathi Cele as one of the people who had robbed us. We went to his house and reported the matter. We requested to see him but he was not available, so we went to his parents and we reported the incident to them. We then asked his parents to talk with him. After that we went to report the matter to the police and we informed the police that we were not going to press charges against this boy because he was still young and the matter was going to be settled with the parents. That was the end of the story, then we went home. After a couple of days, this boy showed no remorse for his actions, he would throw stones at our vehicle. We would go to his home and request them to reprimand him and when we approached him to try and talk to him, he would flee. On realising that our vehicle and ourselves were in danger we went to the police to request them to talk to him and try and get some sense into his head. That was the day my brother went to the police to identify that boy. That was the day on which Nkosinathi Cele was killed.
CHAIRPERSON: So you weren't present that day at the killing of Nkosinathi Cele?
MR CELE: I remained at the police station on the day because we had gone there to report the matter to the police, then my brother had left with the police to go to Nkosinathi, but I had remained at the police station.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Are you aware if any other residents of the same area experienced like problems from the deceased, Nkosinathi Cele and other members, or should I say other perpetrators?
MR CELE: I do not understand.
MS REDDY: Did the people in the same area where you were robbed or attempted to be robbed, experience like problems, the same kind of problems like the robbery and attacks?
CHAIRPERSON: He can answer it because we're not in a court, but the answer will, in all likelihood, just be hearsay won't it, unless he has any direct eye witnessed any other robberies or attacks, but you can ask it.
MS REDDY: Did any other people experience the like problems, like robbery, attacks and so forth in the same area?
MR CELE: I would not know about other community members, but what I would hear was that the vehicles that were targeted were for instance company vehicles or those that were driven by white people. I do know that there was violence but I cannot specify and say that violence was political.
MS REDDY: Do you know whether your brother knew the applicant?
MR CELE: He did not know him because he did not even know Nkosinathi Cele before the incident of him robbing us.
MS REDDY: In your opinion, can you tell this Committee what was the likely motive of the killing of your brother?
MR CELE: In my opinion our relationship with the younger men deteriorated after the death of Nkosinathi Cele. I would say that was the reason why he was attacked.
MS REDDY: Do you wish to state anything further?
MR CELE: What I can state is even though I was prepared to reconcile and make peace with the applicant, but the applicant has not divulged the true information because he insists that my brother was involved in politics, therefore I cannot be in a position to reconcile with him.
MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Cele, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS REDDY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Reddy. Ms Padiachey, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?
MS PADIACHEY: Just a few, Mr Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PADIACHEY: Mr Cele at the time of this alleged robbery, correct me if I'm wrong, did you just say that the people that had robbed you at this time, wore balaclavas?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he said when the R500 was taken the robbers had balaclavas and they couldn't identify them and then they made inquiries, they went later and made inquiries around the community and someone mentioned that it was Nkosinathi that was involved, so they went to the parents.
MS PADIACHEY: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Cele, could it be an assumption that perhaps it could have been anyone else besides Mr Nkosinathi Cele that had robbed you?
MR CELE: That could have been possible, but his actions indicated that he was guilty because when we approached him, he fled and he would not want to talk to us about the matter and he did not even dispute it to his parents when his parents approached him with it. All of that convinced us that he was one of the guilty people.
MS PADIACHEY: Would it then be correct to say that because he had not admitted to the alleged robbery or the theft, that you had assumed that he was the culprit?
MR CELE: I will say he was responsible, because even his parents indicated that he was a troublesome boy and they promised to talk to him. Also his action of throwing stones at cars, at our vehicle whenever we approached and thereafter he would flee. Even after we had alighted our vehicle trying to approach him, he would flee. All of that indicated to us that he was indeed responsible.
MS PADIACHEY: Mr Cele at the time of you going to the family and speaking to the family, did the family ever indicate to you that he was perhaps politically orientated or that he had joined the UDF?
MR CELE: We went to his home several times, I think about 3 or 4 times. They had never indicated such to us. We just requested them to reprimand him, talk to him, but we did not inquire about his political affiliation because we did not know that political organisations were involved in such acts.
MS PADIACHEY: Mr Cele, could you perhaps inform the Committee according to your knowledge why Mr Nkosinathi Cele was in fact shot dead by the police, I believe on Iscor ground?
MR REDDY: Mr Chairperson, could I just address the Committee please? We don't actually see the relevance of that question because in all factuality, Bongani Cele was not present there when the police shot and he did say to the Committee that after his brother was allegedly robbed, he went to the police to report the matter, so I think that stands.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know how he can say that if he's not there, but we have some sort of description of it in the record, but you can ask it if you want, it's not going to prejudice anyone, but I don't think he'll be able to answer it, I mean, he wasn't there.
MS PADIACHEY: I can perhaps rephrase that question. Mr Cele, I'm sure that you've spoken to your brother after the incident and after the killing of Mr Nkosinathi Cele. Did your brother in fact indicate to you how he was shot and why he was shot by the police?
MR CELE: Yes, my brother informed me. He said they went to him at the sports ground and as they approached closer to him, that is when the policeman produced his service card. Nkosinathi attempted to flee. The policeman then tried to shoot. I'm not sure just how many times that policeman fired shots, but one of those bullets hit Nkosinathi and that is how he was killed.
MS PADIACHEY: According to your knowledge Mr Cele, in M section, Umlazi, would you say that that was a stronghold of UDF members, or IFP?
MR CELE: I would not know because at the time politics was something that was not very prevalent and I was not really concerned about politics. Whether it was a criminal act or whether it was linked to politics or something of that nature, that was something I did not know.
MS PADIACHEY: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PADIACHEY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions?
MS THABETHE: No questions Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Ms Reddy?
MS REDDY: Certainly not, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS REDDY
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan, any questions?
MR MALAN: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi, any questions?
ADV SANDI: No questions, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, thank you very much. That concludes your evidence. You may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Is that then the evidence?
MS REDDY: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Alright. Submissions. Ms Padiachey?
MS PADIACHEY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
MS PADIACHEY IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairperson, I wish to bring to the Committee that at the time of the incident which was in 1986, that in KwaZulu Natal especially, that the unrest in the townships was quite rife and it would be common cause that at the time of the incident having occurred, that the applicant in fact had acted out of a political objective, merely on the basis of having known that he had feared for his life, having known that the deceased Themba Cele was a threat to him and according to his evidence and according to the investigations that they have done, they were of the opinion that Mr Themba Cele was an IFP supporter.
On the basis of those, it would seem that the applicant, being only 18 years and being in the political situation and standing of South Africa at that time, had acted, taking into account his youthfulness, had acted on the basis of what he had seen and what he had heard.
It would also be common cause that at the time the incident had occurred, the applicant had called a meeting and that at that meeting a decision was taken to in fact kill Mr Themba Cele as the UDF members at that time, felt that he was a threat to them and obviously also to the fact that the UDF was just coming up at that stage.
It will also be common cause that there were divisions in the Umlazi township between the IFP and the UDF and that the applicant at that stage being a youth, wanted his political affiliation to be one of silence and that he was scared if someone had to have known that he was a UDF supporter.
I would also refer the Committee to the Judgment and to the pages of 16 and 18 where it has been reflected that a meeting had occurred and that on the basis of that meeting, a decision was taken to having killed Mr Themba Cele.
It would also be common cause that at the time of the applicant's actions, that the applicant, together with his other comrades, were actively involved in the liberation struggle for South Africa and their motive and their actions were based mainly on having freed and having liberated their people.
I would submit that his actions were not for personal gain and that he is remorseful for his actions. He also brought this application, having served his sentence for having killed Mr Themba Cele, brought his application to in fact reconcile with the family and having informed the family that that incident and that occurrence was based mainly on politics and no other reason.
These are my submissions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Padiachey. Ms Reddy.
MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
MS REDDY IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, Members of the Committee, audience, can we really believe what the applicant has told us? Yes, it is common cause that he did disclose his role in the killing of Themba Cele but there's a cloud of confusion surrounding the affiliation with any political organisation. He stated that he was a member of the UDF, but in actual fact the UDF was not in existence at that time. He couldn't submit any documentary proof...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Why do you say it wasn't in existence?
CHAIRPERSON: I think it was in existence, but individuals weren't members of the UDF, they were members of organisations which affiliated, which organisations were if I could use the word "members" of the UDF.
MS REDDY: Could we just possibly say it was an umbrella organisation?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, an umbrella organisation of other organisations, not of individuals and then there is the confusion because he says he was with ...(indistinct), but the letter from Jokweni says COSAS and then he says that he wasn't even at school at the time or at college, so that's the confusion I think you're referring to.
MS REDDY: Further, Mr Chairperson and Committee, he couldn't submit any documentary proof as to his membership with any political group. The statement that he submitted by Mr Jokweni didn't even corroborate his evidence, in fact everything that the applicant said in his evidence in chief and during cross-examination, contradicted more or less the old statement. The applicant said that Mr Cele was affiliated with either the police regime, police apartheid regime, or the IFP, but there was no solid proof or evidence that actually supported that allegation. We heard that from Bongani Cele and I think it was Mr Peaceland, both the witnesses who shared very close bonds with the deceased, that he definitely didn't belong to any political organisation.
It seems more probable the reason the applicant is actually applying for amnesty, I think I should bring to this Committee's notice, that when he actually applied for amnesty it was in 1996 and he probably thought at that time by the time the application went to the Committee, he wouldn't have actually been released from prison. Be that as it may, it's most probable that he's actually applying for amnesty and hiding behind political clothes for his own personal gain, most probably in the sense of removing his name from the criminal record for the murder of Mr Cele.
That's all my submissions, Mr Chairperson. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Reddy. Ms Thabethe, do you have any submissions?
MS THABETHE IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chair just to add on. I want to submit that the deceased may or may have not been an IFP member or supporter, he may not have even been involved in politics, he might not even have worked with the police, but he might have been perceived by the comrades, because of being seen with the police, to have been working with them and at that time when politics was rife and the youth were involved in trying to liberate the country and in political struggles.
CHAIRPERSON: And extremely little discipline prevailing, a lot of them operating like gangs, with very little discipline.
MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair. That was my point Mr Chair, that even most of them, especially in the townships, for example they would know that they belong to the UDF or they want to be associated with the UDF but they did not know all the important structures you know within the UDF because of course they were not in the top structures of the ANC.
Further Mr Chair, I think from the evidence, it is clear that the applicant and his comrades thought or believed that the deceased was either working with the police or was an IFP member, that is also on page 4 of his statement, paragraph 3.
I would say that, Mr Chair, I leave it in the hands of the Committee to make the decision.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe. Ms Padiachey, do you have any response?
MS PADIACHEY IN REPLY: Only Mr Chairperson that, as my learned colleague has added that at that time the applicant was not aware of the political structures of the UDF and that being a youth, his objective was to liberate his people and not knowing the structures, he perhaps thought that he was fighting for a rightful cause. These are my submissions, Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Ms Padiachey, I just want you to address us on the apparent contradiction, at least to me, between the statement that your alignment or affiliation to UDF was kept secret because of a fear situation., in the light of the evidence that there were riots, attacks on vehicles coming into the township, stone throwing and all of these incidents happened clearly visible to the whole community, so how can we take it that a UDF supporter had to live in the township not to be known as a UDF supporter? I think that was the evidence of the applicant.
MS PADIACHEY: If I may just speak to the applicant? In response to that, Mr Malan, according to my instructions, it seems that ...
MR MALAN: No, I don't want your instructions, I want you to argue the evidence before us. I assumed that you wanted to just consult on the basis of getting to a better argument, I don't want you to adduce new evidence.
MS PADIACHEY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. It seems that at this stage, according to the applicant's testimony that he has given, he together with his comrades felt they'd been associated with the UDF and due to the fact that the UDF was in its initial stages, ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Let me just put the problem to you quite clearly. If, having listened to the applicant's evidence, the UDF moved about in M-Section unnoticed. Their support was secret. Having listened to him, there was no conflict in the township, it was absolutely quiet, I'm paraphrasing and maybe overstating it, whereas in argument we have evidence about the height of the conflict, the state of emergency, we have no evidence of the applicant that there was burning of vehicles, police following up on that, as if this is an isolated first incident, where they struck and moved back. This is the picture before us. Now how does one reconcile this height of the conflict, state of emergency with the evidence of the applicant that membership was secret and affiliation was secret, you didn't tell anyone, none of the community had to know.
MS PADIACHEY: To the best of my knowledge and what the applicant has given in evidence today and yesterday, it seems that there was violence in M-Section particularly in Umlazi township. It seems that the remainder of Umlazi township had not or was not so much of violence as it seemed to have been apparent that the remainder was IFP. It seems to be taken that the UDF was becoming or uprising only in the M-Section. The reasons for the perhaps uprising in the M-Section would only depend on the applicant's knowledge on that but it seems that M-Section is where they were perhaps trying to gain their support.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. We'll reserve our decision in this matter with a view to getting it out as soon as possible. I'd like to thank the legal representatives, Ms Padiachey, Ms Reddy, Ms Thabethe for their assistance in this matter. That is the roll then, Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: That is all, Mr Chair, for the week.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. That then brings us to the end of our hearings at this venue for this week and just before we adjourn, I'd just like to express my thanks to the owners of this
hall who made it available to us. It's a very convenient and nice venue for us to sit in. I'd like to thank the translators for working so hard throughout the week, especially late last night, overtime, a very difficult job, thank you. The television and sound people for what they've done, Witness Protection programme, the Department of Correctional Services, the investigators, logistic officer, secretary, and certainly last but not least the very fine caterers who have spoiled us throughout the week.
I'd just like to thank everybody. It has been very nice to be back in Pietermaritzburg again. Thank you.
We'll now adjourn.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
HEARING ADJOURNS
