MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, the next witnesses Mr and Mrs Moloi. Mr Moloi is not well and we have arranged that he testify from his seat. They have an extended microphone fitted.
Unfortunately, perhaps I could sit on that side, because I am a bit obstructed by this camera. May I move there. Mr Moloi has indicated that he will be assisted by his wife, because he is not very well, but he will address the Committee in English initially and his wife, if she assists him, will speak Sesotho and the necessary arrangements have been made with the translators.
STEPHAN CYBUTAN FOSTER MOLOI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK: Mr Moloi, you are the father of one of the deceased, who were killed in the incident which took place in Alldays. Could you give the Committee the full names of your son please?
MR MOLOI: My son's names Montgomery Michael Lenepo Moloi.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Your son's full names again?
MR MOLOI: Montgomery Michael Lenepo Moloi, these are his names.
MR BLACK: I understand that your son left the country during 1976, is that correct?
MR MOLOI: That is correct.
MR BLACK: And do you know the reasons for him leaving?
MR MOLOI: There was a lot of pressure on him, politically. Even his class teacher carried a gun all the time when he wrote on the board for example, it appeared on his hip here and he just felt he could not take it any longer.
MR BLACK: And since he left the country in 1976, when was the next time you saw your son?
MR MOLOI: It was in fact when he was reported dead.
MR BLACK: And you went up to Louis Trichardt and identified his body?
MR MOLOI: That is correct, yes.
MR BLACK: And what were you told about his death?
MR MOLOI: They said that they were found in a bakkie which being searched, produced lots of various weapons. And they were asked to give themselves up and they wouldn't do so and then there was a shootout.
MR BLACK: Mr Moloi, you've attended most of the hearing and your wife has been in attendance throughout the hearing and has heard all the evidence?
MR MOLOI: Yes.
MR BLACK: From what you've heard and what has been reported to you by your wife and other members of the family, is there anything you would like to comment on and address the Committee on in respect of these applications for amnesty which have been made, relating to the death of your son?
MR MOLOI: This was a set up. Sorry, this was a set up to really murder our children. I mean if they came into the country illegally, they should have been given a chance at least to be tried.
But for them to be killed like that, like vermin, absolute vermin, was a terrible thing.
MR BLACK: And have you any views, you and your wife have discussed this issue about the applications which have been made for amnesty?
MR MOLOI: We have heard some people actually telling the truth and how sorry they were that they have done things, but you have this police Official for example who was, what is the expression, Judas goat, he actually led our children into a corner where as somebody has quite ardently described it as slaughter corner.
Judas goat, I mean this man knows his work. He is trained to lead people into trouble. You have this Judas goat in abattoirs for instance. They lead the sheep and the goats there and then jump to the other side of the fence while the poor sheep and goats are being slaughtered.
And this is what happened in this case.
MR BLACK: In fact your daughter also went to inspect the scene and she reported to you what she saw as well, is that correct?
MR MOLOI: Yes, correct.
MR BLACK: And the report that you received, does it record with the description given by Mr Alset?
MR MOLOI: Yes, yes.
MR BLACK: Mr Moloi, I understand when your son left since 1976 you and your family also suffered harassment?
MR MOLOI: Yes, indeed.
MR BLACK: From the Security Police, is that so?
MR MOLOI: We were being harassed, day in and day out.
MR BLACK: Yes.
MR MOLOI: Come in and ask the same question, has Monti reported, has he come and then at times they come with big guns and say that we learnt that he is here and look, we are not going to give him a chance, if he is here, he must just give himself up. Otherwise we will ransack the whole house and kill him immediately when we come across him.
MR BLACK: Yes. So they told you that if he comes back, they will kill him?
MR MOLOI: They said actually he was in the country at the time when they came in with big guns and so on. But he never came back, he never did.
MR BLACK: You have heard that the 14 applicants are asking that this Committee grant them amnesty and that there would be no further civil or criminal prosecutions made against them in respect of this incident? How do you and your family feel about that?
MR MOLOI: There are some that can be given amnesty, but I am afraid the Judas goat is the first one to be put into trouble. He has a very dirty piece of work to do, to carry out.
MR BLACK: Thank you. Have you anything further to add to what you've said?
MR MOLOI: I am actually very fed up with what has taken place and if the law of the land does not have this stopped, then we have no progressive South Africa to live in.
MR BLACK: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK: .
MR BLACK: Does your wife perhaps want to say anything? Mr Chairman, I think Mrs Moloi just wants to have a word if possible.
CHAIRMAN: Yes, but can you just give Mr Moloi back that instrument for him to give us his full names and Mr Black led him straight into evidence before we could even swear in. He didn't give us his full names.
MR MOLOI: Whose names?
CHAIRMAN: Your own names.
MR MOLOI: Oh, I Stephan Cybutan Foster Moloi.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
LEHA MOHLAGATIBI MOLOI: (sworn states)
CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You prefer to give evidence in your own language?
MRS MOLOI: Yes.
CHAIRMAN: Okay. They will interpret for you. Give us your full names first.
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.
MRS MOLOI: Leha Mohlagatibi Moloi.
EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK: Thank you. Mrs Moloi, you have attended the hearings throughout, and you have heard all the evidence which has been given by the applicants in respect of their application relating to the death of your son. Is that correct?
MRS MOLOI: That is true.
MR BLACK: Would you like to make any comments to the Committee in respect of the evidence which you've heard and in respect of the applications which have been made by the applicants?
MRS MOLOI: My attitude towards the applicants is that all their hands have killed. There is no one who is innocent. Your presence in the planning shows that you are part of that killing.
Therefore I am not satisfied at all that they should be given amnesty. Because our children has been killed. If you have killed, if you have taken the blood from the body, you have killed. With the attitude - they kill and destroy the body so that the relatives should not be able to identify that is the thing which breaks my heart as a mother.
My child left the country when he was 17 years old in 1976. When he returned when he was 27 years old, he was called a terrorist. But his history I am heartbroken because I am not able to reveal his history, what kind of a person he was.
My child was not a terrorist. And the way he was killed, many people were heartbroken. Because of that, I have requests which I want to make in regard to the killing.
Firstly I was heartbroken that I am not even able to have his photo which shows the whole body. Up to yesterday when we were given those photo's. I am requesting those photo's. Those are my child's photo's.
I am requesting the tape recorder, so that I should listen to that tape because when I look at that photo, that is my child. I suffered the rest of my life and I want to suffer the rest of my life, looking at those photo's and listening that I should not been told that the tape has been lost.
The other thing which I wanted to comfort my heart is that in all this ten years, we were harassed together with my children. My daughter with whom I am today, had to leave teaching because the police should listen to the students, how they read history.
My eldest son left for 10 years, he only arrived in 1992. Today you see the condition of his father, he has been affected by many diseases and he was forced to retire before the right time. All the time I used to go up and down with my children, trying to search for schools where they should attend because our name has been (indistinct) because we are called terrorists.
The other request which I want to make Mr MC, with humility, I request that the person who is in Botswana who is called Mabila, who was gathering our children so that they should cross the border to be killed at the ditch, my husband went with my daughter to the place of slaughter, we want to see Mr Mabila so that he should see us and listen to what we would say to him.
Because we lived under terrible conditions. Because we were not treated fairly. I have papers that when I buried my child, the police were harassing us because in our tradition if you are a mother, the mother is not taken up and down, but they took me to places and my husband was not going to tell, the grandmother of the child, they took me from the bedroom, I left my blankets in that fashion.
I was taken to the police station so that they gave me instructions about the number of people who should attend the funeral. I have all those documents.
You would forgive me if I am taking a long time, because I want to move the pain inside. But if I maybe given the tape to listen to, that tape, because Monti was not a terrorist.
He has his own voice, I am requesting that with humility. My colleagues whose children died, Mr Mogashoa and Mr Alset and the other three who were not identified, I confirm what they have said, but I make a request that those three should be exhumed, because they are South African heroes.
They fought and they have changed this country to what it is today, that they should be reburied to where Mr Slovo has been buried. And their photo's should be published in the papers, and they should be shown on the TV so that their parents are always waiting for them to come back. Maybe they are still at school or doing something.
Nothing has been done. That is my request Mr Chairperson. The other request because I don't know as whether it would be possible in South Africa, it is the police, it is in regard to the police. We don't have the police in South Africa, we are still afraid of them. Especially us who went through that kind of an experience.
Because all the time they would paint you black, all the time.
MR BLACK: Thank you sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK: .
CHAIRMAN: Yes, we have noted your requests and I suppose to the extent that the Commission will be in a position to help, it will try to do so. Mr Visser, I should have asked you whether you have questions to Mr Moloi, it was an oversight on my part, but we can give the microphone back to Mr Moloi if you want to put one or two questions to him.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I do have one question to Mr Moloi. Mr Moloi, I heard you say that as far as you are concerned, some of the applicants can be given amnesty and you went on to say but not the Judas goat.
Who are the persons who you are satisfied could be granted amnesty, could you just indicate who you are talking about?
MR MOLOI: I don't remember their names unfortunately.
ADV VISSER: Are you referring to the White police officers who gave evidence here?
MR MOLOI: Yes.
ADV VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER: .
CHAIRMAN: I assume you have no questions to Mrs Moloi.
ADV VISSER: No questions to Mrs Moloi.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER TO MRS MOLOI: .
MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, that is all the evidence that will be led on behalf of the relatives of the deceased.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mrs Moloi, perhaps we should also thank the relatives for having come forward to express their views.
This is what this process I suppose is meant to be like. Now, I assume you have no further witnesses to call Mr Black.
MR BLACK: No, I have no further witnesses Mr Chairman.
CHAIRMAN: Well, we have come to the end of the evidence and Mr Visser, you indicated that you prefer to submit written argument as opposed to heads of argument, obviously, we would like to have written argument which should be able to assist us.
Mr Rossouw, also indicated that he would prefer to do that. Do you want to indicate a date by which your (indistinct) would be given to us?
ADV VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, first of all, for the sake of clarity, you specifically mentioned that it should be written argument as opposed to heads of argument, in other words full argument.
CHAIRMAN: Full argument.
ADV VISSER: Full argument, yes that is what we intend to do. I am not available after today, until the 19th of this month, but I undertake that within that first week after the 19th, that would be by the end of that week, would be Friday the 24th, you will have my written argument.
CHAIRMAN: Yes. Mr Rossouw, indicated yesterday that he would file his written argument around that time as well.
ADV VISSER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN: It is worth mentioning that because of the problems that we have had in the past, people asking for time to file heads and or written arguments, subsequently not doing so and thereby delaying the decision, and causing a huge backlog, and causing us lots of problems and keeping people in not knowing exactly what is happening, we are of the view that in the event of any party failing to submit their written argument by the dates indicated, we will assume that they have nothing to say and we will proceed to resolve the matter.
Mr Black, do you want to argue or do you want to submit heads of argument?
MR BLACK: I will submit argument after receiving Mr Visser's, but it should be within a week of receiving it if necessary.
CHAIRMAN: All right. Well, we have come to the end of our proceedings and we would like to thank everybody who helped in whatever way. The witnesses and the families as we've already said and of course not to forget the members of the South African Police Services for having been so helpful in many ways and their other colleagues.
ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, before you adjourn, could you allow me one minute? I am instructed Mr Chairman, to place something on record. We all know that we hear mainly Mr Chairman, for the sake of reconciliation and trying to build bridges, we know that it is important for members, family members of victims of gross violations that they should have an opportunity to say what they feel in their hearts and how they feel and we have listened today again to the heartrending stories told by these people, however, Mr Chairman, there is a problem which is presenting itself.
You heard the evidence of our applicants, after all of what they told you, and it wasn't easy, I think you will remember when they gave their evidence, it wasn't easy for them to come, they are now at the end of the day made out to be criminal murderers and they find themselves in a position where they cannot defend themselves, where this evidence is going to go into the world.
Mr Chairman, we are just placing on record, that there is something unfair here which militates against reconciliation. We don't know what the answer is, but we do feel Mr Chairman, that these gentlemen who have come to you to give their evidence, did so in honesty and in truthfulness, you will be the judge of that at the end of the day.
At some stage or other Mr Chairman, something will have to be done about this, because a distorted picture might be sent into the world and people may read in the newspapers about these gentlemen whom they know, to be murderers and if that is, if the Act leaves that scope Mr Chairman, then something is drastically wrong.
We just want to make that statement and leave it at that Mr Chairman.
CHAIRMAN: Well, on the other hand Mr Visser, you must remember that only people who have committed crimes, are the people who are expected to come here. This process is meant exactly for murderers and people expect that people who come to apply for amnesty, are self-confessed murderers, that is why they want amnesty.
And amnesty is not just there for, you know, it must be given in accordance with the law. And there maybe some other prices to pay and as I understand the law and this is my personal view, I am not expressing the views of the Committee, there is a price to pay for getting amnesty.
You are expected to come publicly, in front of the nation and the rest of the world to acknowledge publicly that you have murdered people. If you feel you have not committed any murder at all, then you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to apply amnesty for, one would have thought that you wouldn't come, but if you come, you want amnesty, you are expected to give full disclosure and in fact to acknowledge that you have committed a crime on a public platform, so that you could get amnesty.
Now, coming publicly to say and confess that you have committed murder, and then later complain when people say oh, you were in fact a murderer, I don't understand the nature of the complaint.
We are not here to listen to innocent people. As far as I know.
ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, you are absolutely correct in everything you've said, you are absolutely correct. I think the short answer is that it cannot be expected from the legislature to cover all possible events, I think that is the short answer to the problem.
CHAIRMAN: Yes. And I will say to you Mr Visser, I will give an example of two distinguished people in this country. One of them has publicly acknowledged he has made an application for amnesty, the former Commissioner of the South African Police and he admitted that he murdered people. He planned the murdering of people and therefore he feels he has committed this, he must apply for amnesty.
On the other hand there is ... (tape ends)
