ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, if I counted correctly, we have now arrived at the last applicant before you, Mr Strydom. His application form you will find in B113 and following, 113.
JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER: Mr Strydom you are an applicant and you are asking for amnesty for any offence of delict which you may have committed during an incident which took place on the 10th of July 1986, on the Breslau/Alldays road?
MR STRYDOM: Correct.
ADV VISSER: And you have your application form in front of you, is it correct?
MR STRYDOM: Yes, except for paragraph 8(b), there is just a spelling mistake in one of the names, I don't think it matters much.
ADV VISSER: No, we will leave that.
MR STRYDOM: Further it is correct for the rest and I will confirm it.
MS KHAMPEPE: Can we interrupt you Mr Visser. What page is Mr Strydom's application?
ADV VISSER: I thought it was 113 Mr Chairman, yes, it is 113. You referred to the submission of the Foundation for Equality before the Law to the Commission and also the submission of General Johan van der Merwe before this Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Committee and you are asking that those submissions be incorporated into your own in so far as they are relevant.
MR STRYDOM: That is correct.
ADV VISSER: And lastly you also referred to the amnesty application of Mr Andries Johannes Gerhardus Erwee and you ask that that also be incorporated into your own application.
MR STRYDOM: Correct.
ADV VISSER: In your statement you referred to certain political motives and background which according to you inspired you to act in the way that you acted in general and in particular on that day, is that correct?
MR STRYDOM: Yes.
ADV VISSER: And do you confirm that?
MR STRYDOM: Yes.
ADV VISSER: Now, Mr Strydom where were you stationed?
MR STRYDOM: Where was I stationed?
ADV VISSER: Yes.
MR STRYDOM: As Branch Commander of the Security Branch Beitbridge.
ADV VISSER: And that is Messina?
MR STRYDOM: Right.
ADV VISSER: When did you become involved in this incident, in the run up to this incident?
MR STRYDOM: I only became involved on the 8th of July when I received a call from Head Quarters that I should assist in this matter.
ADV VISSER: And you then left for Alldays, is that correct?
MR STRYDOM: One of my men, Theuns Gerber, who is now deceased, left first and Venter and myself only left the next day. I think I only arrived at Alldays on the 9th, round about two o'clock.
ADV VISSER: Yes, and then you realised that a place had been chosen for the setting up of a roadblock to stop the infiltrators?
MR STRYDOM: Yes.
ADV VISSER: Were you happy with this place?
MR STRYDOM: No, I wasn't happy with it and I pointed it out to the Defence Force Officer who was a Captain Born. I suggested a different spot, because the one they had originally suggested was about 500 metres from a farm house and many farm workers lived quite close by.
And there was also cattle grazing around there, so that would have been a bit risky if something should go wrong. I was worried that members of the public could also become involved.
ADV VISSER: So upon your recommendation a different place was chosen?
MR STRYDOM: Yes.
ADV VISSER: And that is the place where the incident then did in fact take place? Were you then happy that it was remote enough so that bystanders would not become involved and become injured?
MR STRYDOM: Yes, that is correct.
ADV VISSER: Where were you on the day of the incident?
MR STRYDOM: I was posted at one of our vehicles, about 50 metres if I remember correctly, in a north easterly direction from where the casspir was to move onto the road.
ADV VISSER: What was your duty?
MR STRYDOM: I had to man the radio should any messages come through, although the place was actually worthless for our radio.
ADV VISSER: Under whose command were you on that day?
MR STRYDOM: Colonel Erwee.
ADV VISSER: And in general as far as the broader orders and instructions were concerned?
MR STRYDOM: Colonel Van der Merwe.
ADV VISSER: Now, were any of his orders conveyed to you as to what was the purpose and objective of this operation and what is to be done with the six people?
MR STRYDOM: I can't remember if it was Colonel Erwee who phoned me or Brigadier Coetzee, but the instruction was I should afford help and that an attempt would be made to arrest these people. We had information that they came from another country, and it was clear that we had to arrest them but not at the expense of our own lives and I was also told that should the arrest be successful also to assist with the interrogation.
ADV VISSER: Were members of the Defence Force also involved in the operation?
MR STRYDOM: Correct.
ADV VISSER: Were members of the Defence Force stationed where you were on the 10th?
MR STRYDOM: No, I was alone.
ADV VISSER: Mr Strydom, do you feel that you have done anything unlawful or illegal on this particular day?
MR STRYDOM: No.
ADV VISSER: And here you are asking for amnesty, so how does that work?
MR STRYDOM: I want to join up with what previous witnesses have said. I share their views. There were so many calls made from people who were involved in incidents in the past and the call was that they should come forward and tell the full and the true story.
Initially I did not want to apply for amnesty because I felt I did not do anything wrong, but I was informed at some stage that a case of murder was investigated by the Attorney General's team.
That caused a bit of doubt in my mind. It is easy for me to say that I didn't do anything wrong. Policemen decide within five minutes, whereas a Judge or a Magistrate takes days and weeks and months to decide whether you acted correctly or not.
And that convinced me to apply and then somebody else can decide.
ADV VISSER: Thank you sir. Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER: .
CHAIRMAN: Mr Rossouw?
MR ROSSOUW: I have no questions Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: .
CHAIRMAN: Mr Black?
MR BLACK: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK: .
CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
MR STRYDOM: Thank you.
ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, perhaps I don't know whether my learned friend, Mr Black wants to report back to you regarding the attempts by three of our witnesses to identify the person who was wounded. We asked Mr Erwee and Mr Fuchs as well as Mr Van Dyk who were closest to this person whether they could identify him, they were unable to do so Mr Chairman.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr Black?
MR BLACK: Yes, I confirm that Mr Chairman. Photographs of the faces of all six of the deceased were shown to the gentlemen concerned and they were unable to identify the particular person who was being interrogated and who had been wounded.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr Visser, do you have witnesses to call or is that the case for each of the applicants?
ADV VISSER: That is the case so far Mr Chairman. The continuation of this application will depend as I have stated before, on some agreement as to what you would require by way of general background of the unrest period.
It is something which we suggest with respect, my Attorney can sort out more conveniently with Mr Black at a later stage, we are obviously not going to be able to complete that this week.
CHAIRMAN: What unrest situation, because I think these people were said to be terrorists or coming in, whether there was unrest in the country or not, it is neither here nor there, they are supposed to be trained, they are coming in, they are to be arrested. And you know ...
ADV VISSER: Yes, of course except that the general background will of course have an influence on how people reacted at that time and ...
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, you furnished us with yesterday you said 400 pages, and it transcribed to be 200, is there any further evidence about the background that you would like to represent?
ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman no, but may I remind you that we haven't had an indication from you that that would be sufficient. We haven't addressed you on that at all. We don't know whether you want us to do so at this stage or whether you believe it is necessary, because as the Chairman pointed out, this was an isolated incident.
At this stage Mr Chairman, we are quite happy to discuss the issues with you tomorrow as far as the applications themselves are concerned and their merits, we would submit that it would be more convenient for us as well as for you, if we were to draw written argument and to hand it to you at a later stage.
Unless of course you want us to argue tomorrow, verbally, which we are quite happy to do as well.
CHAIRMAN: Well, I was still going to come to that. For example I don't know whether Mr Black has witnesses to call. I thought I should ask you first whether you had witnesses to call and it seems to me you don't?
Mr Black, do you have any witnesses to call?
MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I don't propose calling any witnesses, but I may indicate to the Committee that the families of the three identified deceased persons are present and they have indicated to me that they would like to address the Committee.
I anticipate that they would be addressing the Committee tomorrow, but if the Committee wishes to proceed now immediately, I would need at least five to ten minutes simply to explain again what would be required of them.
CHAIRMAN: No, I don't think - it is already almost four o'clock. We will adjourn now and then you will sort that out with them and I am sure they will agree amongst themselves on a representative for each family?
MR BLACK: Yes.
CHAIRMAN: It is almost four o'clock now and I think we should adjourn until tomorrow morning, half past nine.
MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
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