ADV VISSER: I next call Mr Swarts. His application form is at B104, Mr Chairman.
FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER: Mr Swarts, you are an applicant and you are asking for amnesty for your role in the events which took place on the 10th of July 1986 on the Breslau/Alldays road, which we mentioned here as well as for certain events which took place afterwards, is that correct?
MR SWARTS: Yes.
ADV VISSER: You have completed the official form for amnesty and that is in front of you, is that correct?
MR SWARTS: Yes.
ADV VISSER: Have you read it as amended and does that set out your application properly in your view?
MR SWARTS: Chairperson, at 8(b), I would just like to say something. Number 2, I would just like to correct the dates and the place.
It is Chairperson, on page 104.
ADV VISSER: What are these amendments?
MR SWARTS: From 1975 to 1977 I was stationed in Benoni and from 1977 to 1979 I was in Windhoek.
ADV VISSER: 1977 to 1979 at Windhoek?
MR SWARTS: That is correct.
ADV VISSER: Apart from that, is the application form in order and true and correct?
MR SWARTS: Yes.
ADV VISSER: You refer to two documents, one is the submission made by the Foundation for Equality before the Law and the other is the submission made by General Johan van der Merwe to the Truth Commission, and you ask that that be incorporated into your application and you also include Mr Erwee's application in so far as the facts of the incidents are concerned?
MR SWARTS: Correct.
ADV VISSER: You also listened to the previous applicants who testified here. Is there anything which they said which differs substantially from the way you remember the facts?
MR SWARTS: No.
ADV VISSER: And in your application you set out your political motive for the acts which you've committed and that is what you truly believed in?
MR SWARTS: Correct.
ADV VISSER: And lastly, Mr Swarts, in your actions and conduct did you believe that you were acting within the course and scope of your duties as a policeman?
MR SWARTS: Correct.
ADV VISSER: Mr Swarts, let us now go to the scene and what took place on the 10th of July. Please explain to the members what is your speciality within the Police Force?
MR SWARTS: I was an explosives expert in the South African Police.
ADV VISSER: Was there another member who was also an explosives expert who is also in the Security Force contingent on the scene?
MR SWARTS: Correct, yes.
ADV VISSER: Who was that?
MR SWARTS: Warrant Officer Joggie Kruger.
ADV VISSER: Where were you stationed or placed during this incident?
MR SWARTS: I was in the casper.
ADV VISSER: You heard Mr Erwee's evidence as to what he had seen. Can you briefly tell the members is that the same as what you saw or is there a difference in your observations?
MR SWARTS: There is a difference yes.
ADV VISSER: What is that?
MR SWARTS: When we drove into the road with the casper, after it had jumped around a bit and swayed a bit, I stood upright and I stuck my torso from the roof of the casper and aimed my weapon at the combi.
As I was looking at the combi, on the right side of the combi, I noticed a person next to the combi. He had a gun in his hands.
ADV VISSER: Just before you leave that, was it one of the Security Branch members or was it a Defence Force man?
MR SWARTS: No, it wasn't a member of the Security Forces or the Defence Force.
ADV VISSER: In other words to the left of the combi you saw a person? As you were looking at it, at the right side?
MR SWARTS: As I was looking at the combi, to the right of the combi. Right up, against the combi.
ADV VISSER: Was it a White or a Black person?
MR SWARTS: It was a Black person.
ADV VISSER: Yes?
MR SWARTS: In the same instant I saw Sergeant Sehlwana run away. I only saw the back of him. The next moment I heard a shout in a Black language. I didn't know what was being said.
The next moment a single shot was heard.
ADV VISSER: Was it a rifle shot or a pistol shot?
MR SWARTS: It was a pistol shot Mr Chairman. Immediately afterwards, there was a short volley of fire.
ADV VISSER: Before you get to that, did you notice Captain Born of the Defence Force there where you were looking at the scene?
MR SWARTS: No.
ADV VISSER: So you talk about a short volley of gunfire?
MR SWARTS: During this somebody shouted in Afrikaans, they are shooting at us and I immediately shot at the combi.
ADV VISSER: Could you observe any teargas?
MR SWARTS: Yes, there was teargas in the combi. But at that time I could see some of the passengers in the combi.
ADV VISSER: Could you see whether they had anything with them?
MR SWARTS: No.
ADV VISSER: Are you saying that you shot first and not Erwee or did you shoot after Erwee?
MR SWARTS: No, when I started firing, there was also other firing going on from within the casper.
ADV VISSER: And where did you aim your fire?
MR SWARTS: At the combi.
ADV VISSER: How many shots did you fire, as you found out afterwards?
MR SWARTS: I didn't count the rounds left over in my magazine, so I shot fewer than 20 shots with my rifle.
ADV VISSER: You didn't swop magazines?
MR SWARTS: No.
ADV VISSER: And you only used your R1 to fire?
MR SWARTS: Yes.
ADV VISSER: And a signal came from Mr Erwee seize fire at some stage?
MR SWARTS: Yes, that is correct. At that stage the teargas was already upon us.
ADV VISSER: I suppose you got out then?
MR SWARTS: Yes, I jumped out.
ADV VISSER: Where did you go then?
MR SWARTS: I ran into the bushes behind the casper.
ADV VISSER: Did you eventually return to the scene?
MR SWARTS: Yes. After I had recovered from the teargas, I moved towards the river and in the river bed, walked up towards the combi.
ADV VISSER: Could you give an indication to the members of the Committee how long it took you from the time you jumped out of the casper to the time that you got to the combi? Roughly?
MR SWARTS: It is difficult. I wasn't actually looking at my watch. I really wouldn't be able to say but it would be about five to eight minutes, if I had to estimate it. I can't be exact.
ADV VISSER: What did you do when you arrived at the combi?
MR SWARTS: Members of the Security Branch as well as from the Defence Force, were already present at the vehicle. I was also just standing there, watching what was going on.
Captain Erwee arrived there and chased the people away and said it was a dangerous area, because there was leakage of fuel and some of the bags in the combi were open and there were limpet mines and grenades visible.
He chased the people away from the scene there and told me and Warrant Officer Kruger, to secure the area.
ADV VISSER: What does it mean in layman's language when you say that you had to secure the terrain?
MR SWARTS: From an explosives point of view, that means that you have to check to see that all the explosives in the area, whether they had been stabilised and whether it is safe and secure and to dispose of it, to a safe place further away.
ADV VISSER: For example, you would have to see whether hand grenade hadn't perhaps been hit by a bullet?
MR SWARTS: That is correct. A hand grenade with its pin removed, or whatever or if the mechanism hadn't quite worked.
ADV VISSER: That would include the possibility of a hand grenade in somebody's hand?
MR SWARTS: Yes, that is correct.
ADV VISSER: Before you started securing the area, what were your observations of the people in the combi and or outside the combi?
MR SWARTS: To the left of the combi there was a person laying next to the door of the combi. Nothing was visible at that stage, towards his feet, another person lay on the ground almost on top of the first one's feet.
An AK47's barrel protruded from his body, partly. Next to them in the sand was a F1 hand grenade. And I focused my attention on these two people first. I obtained a rope, it is a piece of nylon rope that had been in one of the vehicles, I think it was about five to six metres long.
And that was used to prevent us from having to actually handle the bodies. I first attended to the people outside the combi. I tied the rope round the corpses body or leg and then pulled him off and rolled him over.
It was an AK which was underneath him.
ADV VISSER: An AK47? An automatic gun?
MR SWARTS: That is correct. The second person, I also flipped him over, using the rope and he was laying on top of a Makorov pistol. The pistol wasn't visible earlier on and only became visible after I had turned him over.
I then attended to the people inside the minibus. The sliding door of the bus was open and flat on the floor of this minibus there was a corpse and I fastened the rope to his leg.
I stood back and rolled him over and when the person fell out, turned over, a hand grenade fell out of the bus along with him. And when the hand grenade fell out, I got a fright, but I immediately saw that the pin was still intact.
I approached and when I unfastened the rope, I heard the person saying something, muttering something and he was shivering.
ADV VISSER: So he was still alive, he showed signs of being alive?
MR SWARTS: Yes. I immediately shouted, here is somebody who is still alive. Captain Erwee and other people, whom I can't remember took the person from me and they left with him.
And I continued attending to the bus. I can't remember where the next person was.
ADV VISSER: Yes, maybe we can cut it short. You removed the other bodies from the combi and you secured the bus?
MR SWARTS: Yes.
ADV VISSER: And also the scene?
MR SWARTS: Yes.
ADV VISSER: What is the next thing which you did?
MR SWARTS: I took the explosives and the bags in which they were, in the direction of the casper, I moved in that direction into the bushes, I was alone and I unpacked the bags and saw that all the grenades and limpet mines and so forth, was secure, they hadn't perhaps been damaged or hit in any way, and were unstable.
I was still busy doing that when somebody came along. There were other people in the bush as well. Radio operators were also in the bush. Somebody came along and said that we can start withdrawing.
ADV VISSER: Before you continue. With my learned friend's cooperation, would you perhaps look at a photograph which will be shown to you and then I want to ask you if that which was photographed there corresponds with what you found that day in and around the combi?
MR SWARTS: That is correct.
ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, I am not sure what the position is, whether that photograph can be handed in. Perhaps my learned friend, Mr Black, can inform you whether you can have that photograph or not.
MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, we have difficulty in handing that photograph at this stage. Mr Malapa the Investigating Officer has to return them to the finger print unit from whom he got them, we haven't got permission to part with these photographs.
A photocopy could be made as opposed to - and already although not in that form, photographs of weaponry do exist in the inquest report next to each body. Should the Committee be satisfied with the photostat copy of that photograph?
CHAIRMAN: I don't know of what value they are to us, but the point is if you hand them in to us and they turn up to be of some value, then you will have difficulties in telling us that we mustn't accept them, someone else wants them somewhere in Pretoria.
You have got to decide whether you want to use those photographs, but I mean if you use them and they acquire some property value to our proceedings, we may have to keep them.
MR BLACK: This is what I am trying to say. My learned friend wishes to hand this in, that one in, but I just want to point out to him and to the Committee that photographs, if the purpose of it is to show that these people were armed, photostat copies of the weaponry already appear in the inquest report. So I do not in my submission, feel that it is necessary to hand and use that particular photograph.
That is simply a photograph of all the weaponry together, whereas the photographs which appear in the inquest purports to be the weaponry found in respect of each victim. In this regard, I refer to Section C, pages 3 to 8.
CHAIRMAN: I think it is common cause that they were armed.
MR BLACK: Yes, and as I say pages C, 3 to 8, sets out all the weapons, so unless my learned friends insists in using these photographs, that photograph, then I would appreciate it if it could be returned.
ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, the only point is that there are six copies of that photograph. Identical copies, I thought that one of them could be made available to you, but if there is a problem with that, I am not insisting that it is going to be handed in.
I think it just gives the Committee a proper idea of the fact that these people were heavily armed.
CHAIRMAN: Do you want this photo back Mr Black?
MR BLACK: Yes, I would appreciate it if it could be returned.
CHAIRMAN: Yes, we have seen the photograph. It shows six AK or what appear to be six AK47's with a number of magazines and ammunition and some hand grenades. What else is there Mr Swarts on the photograph?
MR SWARTS: Mr Chairman, there are AK47, Makorov pistols, ammunition, magazines, F1 hand grenades, hand grenades and mini limpet mines.
ADV VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman. Is this the ammunition or similar ammunition which you found in and around the combi?
MR SWARTS: That is correct.
ADV VISSER: Did you find spent cartridges somewhere?
MR SWARTS: In the combi on the floor, I found a couple of empty AK47 cartridges, bullets. I can't say what the exact number were but perhaps six to eight.
ADV VISSER: What is the next thing that happened to you after you returned from the bush after securing the area?
MR SWARTS: I loaded the bags with the explosives and weapons into a car, into a vehicle. I think it was myself and Warrant Officer Bressler and we left for Alldays police station.
ADV VISSER: What kind of vehicle was this?
MR SWARTS: I think it was a Land Cruiser.
ADV VISSER: A bakkie?
MR SWARTS: A bakkie.
ADV VISSER: Did you receive any instructions from Mr Erwee on the scene, other that you should secure the scene?
MR SWARTS: No.
ADV VISSER: Eventually the people started arriving at Alldays, correct?
MR SWARTS: Yes.
ADV VISSER: Did you receive instructions there?
MR SWARTS: Chairperson, yes. After the bodies were photographed, and the ammunition was photographed, I was appointed as the Investigating Officer in a conversation between Dreyer and Erwee.
ADV VISSER: How long had you been attached to the Security Branch in the Far Northern Region at that stage?
MR SWARTS: At the end of 1985, it was after Christmas, round about the 27th of December, 1985 I arrived in Louis Trichardt and I spent about three, three and a half months there and then I went on an Officers' course and came back from the Officers' course on the 4th of July.
ADV VISSER: 1986?
MR SWARTS: 1986, and it was only on the 7th of July that I started working again and on the 10th of July this incident happened.
ADV VISSER: Had you already said that you were appointed as the Investigating Officer?
MR SWARTS: Correct.
ADV VISSER: Can you tell the members exactly what you did. When you were appointed, was there a specific instruction given to you as to how you should complete your task?
MR SWARTS: That is correct.
ADV VISSER: Who gave you the instructions?
MR SWARTS: Captain Erwee and Lieutenant Dreyer.
ADV VISSER: What did they tell you?
MR SWARTS: That due to the circumstances of this particular case, the protection of the policeman and the informer was important. It was also important to protect the information networks as well as the modus operandi of the Security Police and the shallow border or cross border operations and Intelligence gathering, and all these things should be protected.
And that we should keep the statements as short as possible. That we should omit certain facts from the statements which could possibly harm these people and that was basically that.
ADV VISSER: In brief, you were told to only put the bare minimum which was necessary for the inquest into this statement?
MR SWARTS: That is correct, yes.
ADV VISSER: You tried to identify the deceased, is that correct?
MR SWARTS: Yes.
ADV VISSER: We have already heard from Mr Dreyer that the identity books found on these bodies, were no aid in identifying these people?
MR SWARTS: The ID books, apart from the photographs, the names and ID numbers were of no value. The particulars sent to Home Affairs and other bodies, led to no further clues.
ADV VISSER: In other words it was incorrect, this information?
MR SWARTS: Yes.
ADV VISSER: And the finger prints in the ID books?
MR SWARTS: No, they also similarly had no value.
ADV VISSER: And you were able to positively identify three people?
MR SWARTS: That is correct.
ADV VISSER: And that was on the basis of finger prints? Now, today you were shown certain photographs. No, it was not you, it was Mr Fuchs. However, what happened to the persons who were identified, as to the bodies?
MR SWARTS: The families of the identified people came to fetch them in Louis Trichardt.
ADV VISSER: And those who weren't identified, what happened to them?
MR SWARTS: After attempts were made to identify them, and these attempts were unsuccessful, they were buried as pauper in Louis Trichardt in the cemetery.
ADV VISSER: Do you know what the procedure is for the burial of a pauper in a municipal cemetery?
MR SWARTS: Yes. If I am correct, then an order must be obtained from the Magistrate for the burial of these people.
ADV VISSER: So their would have been a record of that?
MR SWARTS: Correct.
ADV VISSER: In the process of completing your documentation for purposes of the inquest, did you receive a sworn statement from Mr Erwee?
MR SWARTS: That is correct.
ADV VISSER: And you also made a sworn statement which was attested by Mr Dreyer, is that correct?
MR SWARTS: That is correct, yes.
ADV VISSER: In your sworn statement, the facts set out there are they all strictly correct?
MR SWARTS: No.
ADV VISSER: In what respect is your statement not correct?
MR SWARTS: Chairperson, I did not transport the bodies from the scene to Alldays.
ADV VISSER: According to you, who would you guess was the person who would have done so?
MR SWARTS: I really don't know.
ADV VISSER: You are also requesting amnesty for any contravention of offence which you might have committed in that respect?
MR SWARTS: Correct.
ADV VISSER: If I could take you back before the incident took place, are you aware of any orders as to what should be done with the passengers?
MR SWARTS: Yes.
ADV VISSER: Could you tell us?
MR SWARTS: The evening at Alldays there wasn't much talk on this issue, about the planning, but the morning of the incident it was made very clear to us that we should arrest these people.
ADV VISSER: At all costs?
MR SWARTS: At all costs.
ADV VISSER: That that was what it was about, the arrest of these people?
MR SWARTS: And it was also said to us that should problems arise and if a confrontation arises, we shouldn't endanger our own lives.
ADV VISSER: When you got upright and you started shooting, the question could arise, why did you start shooting at that moment? What were your reasons?
MR SWARTS: Shots came from the direction of the combi and I personally felt threatened, my life was in danger, I was being shot at.
My colleagues' lives were in danger and that is why I fired.
ADV VISSER: As a policeman what were your instruction in situations where you were under fire? How were you told to respond?
MR SWARTS: In our training, we are told or trained to handle such a confrontation in such a way that I should answer the fire with fire until there was no resistance left. All resistance should be eliminated.
ADV VISSER: So you should deliver maximum fire power until all resistance is eliminated?
MR SWARTS: Correct.
ADV VISSER: Mr Swarts, are you aware of what happened to all the weapons that were found at the combi? What happened to it?
MR SWARTS: It was taken to Louis Trichardt, to the Security Branch and I didn't deal with it after that.
ADV VISSER: I don't have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER: .
MR ROSSOUW: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: .
CHAIRMAN: Mr Black?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK: Yes, sir, thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Swarts, at Alldays you say that you were then appointed the Investigating Officer?
MR SWARTS: That is correct Chairperson.
MR BLACK: And to use a general word, it was in fact to try and cover up certain facts from being publicly known?
MR SWARTS: Could you repeat the question please?
MR BLACK: First of all you agree that it is rather unusual to appoint a person who participated in the incident to be the Investigating Officer?
MR SWARTS: No, at that stage I didn't think that it was abnormal.
MR BLACK: That you had to investigate an incident in which you personally also took part in?
MR SWARTS: That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR BLACK: Was this a normal practice amongst the Security Forces?
MR SWARTS: I couldn't answer that.
CHAIRMAN: He wants to know according to your knowledge?
MR SWARTS: I don't have any knowledge of that, I really don't know whether that is standard practise.
CHAIRMAN: For how long had you been in the Force?
MR SWARTS: At that stage about ten years. But I just want to qualify it by saying that I only at the end of 1985 (indistinct)
CHAIRMAN: Did you ever see a person being appointed to investigate an incident in which himself had been involved?
MR SWARTS: I had never been involved in such an incident. It was also my very first inquest which I dealt with.
CHAIRMAN: Any other incident, not necessarily of this nature, but any incident where a person was involved and was then asked to become the Investigating Officer, did you ever experience such a thing?
MR SWARTS: Not as far as I can recall.
MR BLACK: Thank you. Mr Swarts, if I may just begin at the inquest stage, did you as the Investigating Officer either inform the families, any member of the families whose sons could be identified as to the circumstances under which they were killed, that their children were killed?
MR SWARTS: I can't recall that Chairperson.
MR BLACK: Did you tell anyone at say for example at Louis Trichardt mortuary or any of the police who had to contact the families, as to what information they must give the families in the event of the families wanting to know where there children were killed?
MR SWARTS: That is correct, yes.
MR BLACK: Well, can you just explain the following to me please. The Moloi family if I may refer to them as that, were told that their child was killed in Soutpansberg.
They obviously at the time can't remember the exact name of the policeman who told them that, but that is what they were told. Could you explain that?
MR SWARTS: Is that a question Chairperson?
MR BLACK: Yes, I am just asking you if it is possible for you to give me some explanation as to, because each one of these families were given false information.
I will go through it all together.
CHAIRMAN: Mr Black, it could well have been in Soutpansberg area, Alldays, is it not?
MR BLACK: Yes, okay, that is all they were told.
MR SWARTS: Yes, Soutpansberg is in that area.
MR BLACK: But they were only told the child was killed in the Soutpansberg. Did you give more detailed information to any of the Officers who had advise the families?
MR SWARTS: I can't recall what I told the people. And I can't testify as to what those people told the family.
MR BLACK: Yes, because then the Alset family was told that their son was found, when they made enquiries at Louis Trichardt, when they went to identify the body, information given to them was that their son was found on the mountains near Messina and then the Mogashoa family was told that their son was killed at Pontdrift.
MR SWARTS: I can't comment.
MR BLACK: Okay. From the inquest report it would appear that a Lieutenant Bester took certain photographs in respect of - you pointed our certain objects or points which he had to take photographs of, do you recall that?
MR SWARTS: That is correct yes.
MR BLACK: Was it on the same day?
MR SWARTS: Yes, if I remember correctly it was on the same day, at Alldays.
MR BLACK: Was he with your group of people?
MR SWARTS: No.
MR BLACK: Were you present as the Investigating Officer at all times with him, while he was taking photographs?
MR SWARTS: If I remember correctly I was present when the explosives and the bags and things were pointed out to him. I think the corpses were there as well, but I can't remember exactly.
MR BLACK: Did he go out to the scene of the operation, did you as the Investigator take him out to where the shooting had taken place so that he could take photographs of that scene?
MR SWARTS: No, Chairperson.
MR BLACK: I just, if you can give an explanation please do so, during the course of the day, one of the Investigators of the Truth Commission went through the registers or the records, let us put it that way, kept at the information centre I am told, or the finger print, where the finger print experts are or where these photographs are kept, and an entry in the register shows that on the 10th of July, in Alldays a Mr Bester took 260 photographs.
130 of them were enlarged. But no trace of those photographs could be found in the whatever you want to call it, archives or safe keeping place.
MR SWARTS: I can't comment on that.
MR BLACK: Yes, but would there have been any reason for him to have taken 260 photographs if the only objects that he photographed were the bodies and the ammunition and the vehicle at Alldays?
MR SWARTS: I don't know.
MR BLACK: Does it strike you as being a bit abnormal?
MR SWARTS: I don't know if it is abnormal.
MR BLACK: Okay. Now, during this operation, you've made mention during the execution of this operation, let's put it that way, when the shooting took place, you as an expert in explosives, did you only hear gunshots going off?
Were there any hand grenade explosions and anything to that?
MR SWARTS: No, there were no explosions, Mr Chairman.
MR BLACK: After this inquest being held, were you ever approached by any of your seniors to find out you being the Investigating Officer, as to what your findings were of your investigations and what took place at the inquest?
MR SWARTS: I can't recall that.
MR BLACK: Did you report to any, when I say your seniors, I am talking about people like Colonel Van der Merwe, Brigadier Coetzee, as to - did you file a report on your findings?
MR SWARTS: Chairperson, I reported to Lieutenant Dreyer, my Branch Commander.
ADV VISSER: Just one technical point, this witness didn't make any findings Mr Chairman, unless there is something we don't know about.
CHAIRMAN: I was under the impression that the question was whether after the inquest had made its findings, the witness passed the information over to his seniors?
MR SWARTS: Yes, that is right, I also understood it like that Mr Chairman.
MR BLACK: Perhaps for clarity, you say that you were appointed the Investigating Officer, to investigate what?
MR SWARTS: Chairperson, to prepare the inquest for the court.
MR BLACK: So you were appointed in order to, well there was nothing much to investigate. It appears that amongst the three of you, you had agreed what facts were going to be placed before the inquest hearing, is that correct?
MR SWARTS: Is that a statement or a question, I don't understand?
MR BLACK: What did you have to investigate?
MR SWARTS: The inquest docket and everything in it.
MR BLACK: But I gather that you - had you agreed what was going to go into that docket, what evidence was going to be presented to the inquest hearing? Had you, Mr Erwee and Dreyer agreed as to what was to be presented to the inquest?
MR SWARTS: Yes, Captain Erwee did say that he was going to give his statement in such a way and I said that my statement would be in such a way and he gave the reasons for that, and I agreed with that.
MR BLACK: Was there a formal report given to Lieutenant Dreyer of your findings of a inquiry which you had made or an investigation which you had made?
Or did you not go through that farce?
MR SWARTS: If I understand the question correctly, the inquest docket was submitted to the Prosecutor and the Magistrate for a finding after all the necessary dockets were placed in it.
MR BLACK: So you have never looked at the copies have you, of the inquest report which was furnished to your legal representatives?
MR SWARTS: No, I haven't had a look at it.
MR BLACK: I would have imagined that they would have shown that to you, because did you make, you see we've only got lists here, we've got this two statements that is constantly being referred to, we've got the post-mortem reports, but is there any record of ammunition used by the Security Forces, anything to that effect, or was the only evidence placed before the inquest as to how and the Security Police acted, the statements of Mr Erwee and Mr Swarts?
No record of how many cartridges you people used, what was found on the scene, etc?
MR SWARTS: I can't remember exactly what was contained in the inquest docket.
MR BLACK: Thank you.
CHAIRMAN: Actually you mean in the docket?
MR SWARTS: Yes, in the docket, that is correct.
ADV VISSER: We just must point out Mr Chairman, that there is no reason for us to assume that what we've got in this file, was the complete docket that came before the Magistrate.
CHAIRMAN: That is why I am rephrasing Mr Black's question.
MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, all that I can say is that I was given assurance by the Attorney General that these documents were a complete set of documents in the inquest docket. That is all.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black, could you kindly, I would like to know because I want to concentrate on that, could you tell me what is the purpose of this question as far as amnesty is concerned, as far as this applicant is concerned? What are you trying to convey to us, what is the purpose, do you want us to disbelieve him, what is the purpose of the questions?
MR BLACK: Mr Commissioner, what I am trying to get at is whether there has been a full disclosure, I am not trying to protect credibility or not, it would appear to me as I am saying for example, the photographs prima facie there appears to be evidence which has not been presented.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black, you have been aware thereof, you are representing us. Have you made enquiries where is Bester, would you call him as a witness, what is the position?
MR BLACK: This information has just come to hand during the course of the day.
ADV DE JAGER: Then I am afraid this case wasn't investigated before it was placed on the role for hearing?
MR BLACK: Mr Commissioner, all I can say is that as the Investigating Officer, if Mr Swart can't throw any light on it, then it doesn't and if to his knowledge as the Investigating Officer, no photographs were taken of the scene, and it would appear that Mr Erwee has also testified to that effect, then it would appear that no further purpose would be served by finding those photographs.
CHAIRMAN: A full disclosure to whom, the full disclosure that you are complaining about, a full disclosure to who? To us or to the inquest?
MR BLACK: First of all to the inquest area at the time, because that I think it has been canvassed with other witnesses.
CHAIRMAN: Well, (indistinct). I am just concerned about, I am surprised that some of your questions tend to deal with failure to make a full disclosure to the inquest and failure to investigate certain things properly at the scene and all that, we know that there hasn't been and we have been given the reason.
The reason was that you know, there couldn't have been a full disclosure to the inquest, because that could have endangered the lives of some people.
MR BLACK: Yes. So I don't want to pursue that further. There is nothing further that I need to ask of this witness, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK: .
CHAIRMAN: Did you want to re-examine?
ADV VISSER: No thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV VISSER: .
ADV VISSER: That is the case for this applicant.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Swarts, you are excused.
MR SWARTS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
