ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Before we go on, there's one point which I'd like to clarify with the first applicant. Mr Mjikwa, you said you wanted to go into the Police Station at Langa, do you remember that?
MR MJIKWA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: I take it that was to steal guns there?
MR MJIKWA: No, we had not gone there to steal a car.
CHAIRPERSON: No, a gun I said. What were you going into the Police Station - why did you want to go into the Police Station?
MR MJIKWA: We wanted to destroy the Police Station, that's why we wanted to go inside.
CHAIRPERSON: It's, I gather, a satellite Police Station.
MR MJIKWA: Are you asking me whether it was a satellite Police Station or asking me if we had gone there to set it alight?
CHAIRPERSON: Now, I asked you if it was a satellite Police Station, satellite - small one.
MR MJIKWA: I beg you pardon, it was a small Police Station.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Carry on.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR NYOKA: Mr Chairperson, I call the last - sorry, the second applicant, Mr Sizwe Makhuleni.
SIZWE MAKHULENI: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA: Mr Makhuleni, are you - were you a member of any organisation at the time in question?
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.
MR NYOKA: Which one was it?
MR MAKHULENI: I was a full member of COSAS and a Chairperson of ...(indistinct)
MR NYOKA: According to the bundle you made an application form for amnesty, page 1 to page 3. Do you confirm the contents of the application - your application seems to be very much in order?
CHAIRPERSON: Chairperson of who?
MR NYOKA: According to the bundle from page 1 to page 3 you made an application for amnesty - your application seems to be in order. Do you confirm the contents of that application and the signature on page 3 as being yours?
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, I do.
MR NYOKA: You further made a hand-written application for amnesty to the TRC, the letter is undated, that will be Exhibit E from 4 to page 10. Do you confirm that to be your handwriting and your signature, and the contents of the application?
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, I do.
MR NYOKA: When, if you can tell us, did you make this application?
MR MAKHULENI: It was 1996, roundabout March.
MR NYOKA: You heard the first applicant, Mr Mjikwa testifying before us regarding certain incidents. Do you confirm those incidences in so far as they relate to you as being truthful?
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, I do.
MR NYOKA: Can you just mention the incidents, not going at length through them, just mention them, those that you confirm for certainty sake.
MR MAKHULENI: The first murder, the murder of the Police Officer, meaning the municipal Police Officer at Gwashu Street no 7, if I'm not mistaken the number of the house. The second murder of a certain Police Officer was in a truck, a municipal truck, the garbage truck at Gelo Street in KwaNobuhle. The third murder of the Police Officer was on duty at the Police Station in Langa. Those are the two murders together with their robberies of their firearms, I do confirm it.
MR NYOKA: What was the aim pursued for all these acts or incidents?
MR MAKHULENI: The aim was to disarm the enemy and to arm the people due to the fact that at the time there was no security upon the people because of the killings and the violence which was orchestrating in our Township.
MR NYOKA: Is it correct that at some stage you skipped the country, you fled the country and joined MK?
MR MAKHULENI: That's absolutely correct.
MR NYOKA: Where - on your return, which organisation did you join?
MR MAKHULENI: On my return I was a full member of the ANC. When I returned from exile I was returning duty, on a mission to help establish the national peace-keeping force which was - my region at the time was in Cape Town, Valkenberg - I mean Koeberg base, excuse me.
MR NYOKA: And when did you skip the country?
MR MAKHULENI: It was 1991.
MR NYOKA: And returned when?
MR MAKHULENI: 1994 on the 18th of February on a chartered plane of the South African Air Force.
MR NYOKA: What do you wish to say to the Committee?
MR MAKHULENI: What I wish to say, I would like to say to the Committee is to give clarity. I wouldn't like to assume that the Committee is fully aware of the political situation we were subjected to. I would like to give clarity exactly of what was happening in the Township and what coerced us to take a decision to resume the operation clean-up of 1985 which was ordered to us by the leaders, namely Zuongangalu.
MR NYOKA: Seeing that applicant no 1 has already made a motivation, can you do that briefly.
MR MAKHULENI: I can do so.
MR NYOKA: Thank you.
MR MAKHULENI: I will just brief the Committee that in Uitenhage in 1985, 16th of June a statement was made publicly, internationally by our Chairperson at the time who was Zuongangalu to us and to our community that it was a time to clean our Township from the dirt and also it was a time for operation clean-up, meaning that we have to clean our Township, we have to do away with the Police, we can no longer live with the Police in our Township.
They have to go away and stay away with their bosses, meaning at that time they were said to be Boers. Ever since then Uitenhage was the first, very first town or area where such a statement was issued all over South Africa that operation clean-up was set up. The Police were harassed, they were shot, they were killed. There was ware against the Police and the community at the time. It was only Uitenhage from the statement which was made publicly by Comrade Zuongangalu.
Then that operation seemed to be hanged up in roundabout 1986 due to when the decision was taken by COSAS that we should go back to school. In 1984, 1985, 1986 there was a stay-away from school, but when we went back to school, that mission or operation of clean-up was said to be hanged, that means suspended due to the fact that the ANC was calling for us to go back to school at the time. Through the organisation which were not banned or were still operating, the Youth Congress in Uitenhage.
In 1989, started 1987, we experienced violence in KwaNobuhle which was orchestrated by the system together with the Police - I mean the system together with the operative Ama-Vigilante. Ama-Vigilante were the group of people who were working with the Police, those people who have infiltrated another political movement which is called PAC. There was PAC and the ANC supporters.
Then the Vigilante infiltrated the PAC to orchestrate a system which was called the black on black violence in our Township, in my particular Township. So it would seem as if the war which was going on in KwaNobuhle Township was between the PAC members and the ANC members, which was not the case, it was between the Vigilante who infiltrated the PAC members versus the community because the Government had a programme of action to make sure that all the programme of action of ANC was disorganised.
Take for example the mass-defiance in 1989/90, the defiance can be in all those programmes of action, so the Government had to make sure that our community does not operate or exercise those programmes of action which the ANC was installing in the Township. So then they installed the black on black violence so that we should kill one another as flies. The call was made that the ANC wanted peace in South Africa's as a whole, in KwaZulu Natal, KwaNobuhle, in all the areas which were affected by this so-called black on black violence.
So then we made arrangements together with the principal of the school, HOD, as I have said in my statement, to try to arrange a peace process together with PASU to try to resolve our political differences which was at school at the time in 1989/1990. The violence started at school which poisoned the whole community, although there was peace, but the system was still operating.
We embarked on negotiations with PASU. At that process I was constantly informed that I was going to be assassinated due to my involvement in the peace process at school. I had to leave the peace processes to go to have military training underground inside the country, which was called a crash-course, that is on the affidavit. I was trained, a crash-course underground right inside the country, right in my area Uitenhage. I've said in my affidavit that I was introduced to this particular soldier who trained me by Mr Vuysile Thole. The name of this particular gentleman who trained me is in my affidavit, so I wouldn't like to dwell too much - to waste time on it because ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR MAKHULENI: Page 2 of my affidavit, paragraph 5.2. I briefly stated about my medical training inside the country. During that military training the peace process was continuing, but there was still a threat that the peace process which was going on was under threat, that at any time it might dissolve, it might end up as waste of time because there were actions which was planned by the Vigilante, whilst the PAC executive, the PASO, the ANC, the ...(indistinct) were busy negotiating.
On the other hand the Vigilante activities who infiltrated the PAC were planning to attack the comrades. They were not planning, they were attacking constantly the comrades, so the comrades were planning also to attack back to the Vigilantes Ama-Africa. So I made sure that I was given an assignment that I have to make sure that I safeguard that peace processes as I was trained inside the country and I was informed about this is not black on black violence, how it operates and why it was installed by the system.
So now I have to make sure that I counteracted that in my community so to help to make sure that that peace processes is not in jeopardy. Fortunately I was informed when I met Zolegeli as I've said in my affidavit somewhere along the line, I don't know whether it's page 5, when I met Zolegeli who briefed me about the meeting which was organised by my co-accused together with other comrades which we were working with. The meeting was in Tutosa.
They called all the activities, so-called the Self-defence Unities today, we call them the Self-defence Unities. At that time we called them Young Lions. All the Young Lions who were in Uitenhage, they were called in to Tutosa. That meeting - they were planning to attack back Ama-Africa together with the Police because of the constant killings which was continuing in my community whilst there was a peace process going on. Also those peace processes were the second peace processes, the first was in 1989, it was destroyed by the system.
Now this is the second peace process which we embarked on. Now I have to safeguard that peace process. I acted very fast and quick, I reported this to my commander. He told me that he knows Mr Mjikwa, he's been informed about him, unfortunately he has not yet met him, because his case is nobody knows where he is. But I have to make sure that I get to Mr Mjikwa and confirm to him that the attacking of Ama-Vigilantes at that particular time in 1990 will jeopardise the process of peace in our community.
The only thing that we could do is to do away with the Police, who are the heads of such black on black violence which were responsible for the killings of the people in my community.
So I made a way to find out where Mr Mjikwa was because it was difficult to find him as he was a refugee of the law at the time. I went to comrade Nkombese - comrade Nkombese is a well-known comrade in my community. He said - he told me that he's going to meet Mbuyiseli at the later stage and confirm to him, so they made arrangements to meet with him.
So I met Mbuyiseli through comrade Nkombese and I had a talk with him and I convinced him that the danger of attacking Ama-Africa and how it's going to result that many people would die and those people who die would be children because many children are already dead through that black on black violence.
So then ANC mission is to install peace in my community, but we cannot do that - we cannot do that if I let them go ahead with attacking Ama-Africa at that particular time. So the only way we could do is to make sure that we hit the head - we hit the snake on the head, not the snake on its tail. Ama-Africa was just the tail, not the head. So I convinced him that, comrade it's high time that we take up arms to make sure that we protect the peace processes.
As a trained personnel and also as an activist in my community for quite a very long time, as a comrade you have to serve, - you have to serve, you have to sacrifice. At that particular time I served, he had served. I have suffered, he has suffered, but the time had some to sacrifice for the betterment of peace in my community and stability. To stop the killings of innocent children and innocent people who knew nothing about politics, but they were killed, that's because they were in the community of Ama comrade, by the people who were the Vigilantes, who infiltrated PAC. The PAC was a pure political organisation which was banned and he had a military wing - he had no reason the kill the ANC people.
So we decided now it's time to act, to secure the peace processes. The only way we could do that, as I have already said, is to hit the snake on the head. The snake was the violence, the head were the Police. So all these killings of the Police comes from what I've already said. It's the reason why we went attacking them, we gathered information about the Police Station. Where were they - we resumed with the operation clean-up of 1985, we didn't want any Policemen in our community, to do away with them and also to put them at length, at arms - as far away as possible as we could.
But the only way to do that is to attack them, so that's what we did, we attacked them, and our mission was successful, because one thing I know, a killer is a very coward person, especially when the killer doesn't want to be known. When you know a killer is a killer he will run away. He will never kill again because he's ...(indistinct) to be killed. That's what was happening, the Police knew after we started to attack them that these people, what they are doing, they are just after us. They want the Police, not the Vigilantes. Why they don't kill the Ama-Africa, we didn't kill Ama-Africa - we met many of Ama-Africa in the way.
Some of them they were kissing girlfriends in corners of the city at night. We had a chance to kill them, we didn't kill them, we just greeted and told them it's peace amongst the people. We were against the enemy. They were surprised, some of them, why didn't we kill them. We were up to kill Ama-Police because of what they were doing to our community, to our society. I don't want to exaggerate and make an example of KwaZulu Natal because it's a ...(indistinct) situation with my community, what was happening in my community because the Government wanted to make KwaNobuhle same as KwaZulu Natal. Thank you.
MR NYOKA: Are you saying therefor that the decision to stop killing the Ama-Africa was taken later on, after the peace process was in operation and maturing, not that the decision was taken from the very first act?
MR MAKHULENI: The decision of stop killing Ama-Africa yes, was taken later on, on the second peace processes which we had, because we had the first processes of peace in 1989 at the ...(indistinct) but it was destroyed. As a result one of Ama-Africa was killed at Mtanzania, his name Ndluja. He was mugged by the community. More that 100 women were dancing on his head - tombstones. It was Ama-Africa, and that made ...(indistinct) he went to my community to have a drink, to drink because he knew that there was peace.
On the other hand the people who infected his organisation were killing other comrades in other areas so my community, the people of my community saw Luja as Ama-Africa so they hit him, they killed him.
MR NYOKA: What do you say to the victims of your actions like murder and robbery of the firearm of the Traffic Officer, what do you say to them?
MR MAKHULENI: I would to start to address Mr Yose. I would like him to know that our mission to him - I mean the mission of my comrade to him as I have disarmed him was not kill him. My comrade only wanted firearm, the firearm which it was not his, it was the State's firearm, the State which was responsible for the brutal killing of my people in my community and also all over South Africa.
So as we the community took up decision, we took a stand to say, stop, now it's time to say stop. The only way we could acquire firearm is to disarm all the State security, all the State agents, even the Traffic Cops. But because he was not responsible for the violence, he was not responsible for the killings, my comrade did not kill him, they just took the firearm.
Those firearms were used to kill the people who were killing the people, the Police. So I'm sorry if that process has resulted to his assault. I wish you could understand the situation we were subjected to at that particular time and our purpose at that particular time, and the mission we were at that particular time.
To the Police victims, the wives and the children, no-one was born a murderer. I was doing standard 10 in ...(indistinct) public school at the time I killed these people, I was in the physical science and mathematics class academic. My mom saw a doctor out of me. But because the system changed every dream I had. So the Police victims I would like to say I am sorry that I have killed your husband and the dear father to your children.
I am very sorry, but the situation - we were all victims, we were at war with the system, we were at war with the Government, we were at war, so the only way to fight the Government is to go through the security system. So I am very sorry that it had to be your husband, it could have been anybody's man at that particular time, we never targeted a certain particular Policeman like Mr so and so, we never targeted - it could have been any Policeman at that particular time, but it was a God call that he should be there that particular time. I believe that their blood also nourished the tree of this freedom we have today. I wish they could understand it in that particular field. Thank you.
MR NYOKA: Finally, I notice that your name is Sizwe, which means nation. Where you and your actions following your name in your political affiliation?
MR MAKHULENI: To respond to that, your highness, that was said by my family when I returned from exile, that they never thought that I will stand and fight for people, they just named me when I was born. So I really don't know, maybe the ancestors knew what they were doing with me.
MR NYOKA: I can confirm that they knew. No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA
MR GQOMO: No questions, Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR GQOMO
MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: I've got a few questions I would like you to answer. The first is, is it correct as you said in your application form, paragraph 11(a) that you acted on behalf of the Organisation without its approval?
MR MAKHULENI: In my application?
CHAIRPERSON: In your application.
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, I acted on behalf of my Organisation, but not with my leader's approval. Being militant, you don't have to be known. I was ordered to secure the peace processes by a soldier, but not a leader.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm looking at your affidavit now, paragraph 7, you shot the Policeman known to you "Shorts"?
MR MAKHULENI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you know him?
MR MAKHULENI: No, sir, I didn't know him, but I heard about him in my community. As you know that anything that happens in my community, especially when it comes to Police Officers - I heard about him, but I never saw him personally.
It was the first time when I saw him at the shebeen, when I asked him - before we shot him, I disarmed him. After disarming him I told him to stand about two feet from me. I asked him questions, what's your name. Then he conveyed to me that I'm Shorts Sesizwe, I'm known, I'm very well known, I'm Shorts. I said you are Shorts, that how I recall that his name is very popular in my community as one of the Policemen who was a gunslinger in my community. It was the first time I met him.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. In your application, the annexure to your application, you have said and I quote from page 7,
"After that we managed to get one of the most dangerous Police who we used to call him Shorts. He was a gunslinger and he was working in security. This man killed many youths in Uitenhage. In 1981 he shot one pregnant woman in the stomach when she was from the shop to buy bread for her other two children.
On the night of March of April 1990 we disarmed him and both shot him."
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir, that's what I wrote.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MAKHULENI: I heard about this incident, it was 1987, that a certain Policeman known as Shorts shot a pregnant woman in the stomach and Mabanza Road when there was a toyi-toying moving around in the corner of Mabanza. The woman was walking, so they were dispersing that toyi-toyi.
So as a result he shot a pregnant woman in the stomach, that's what he's well-known about. He's popular about that incident, everyone knows him about that, and also many convict identifies him. So each and every time a certain convict has been arrested he would complain that Shorts was there. Each and every time a certain convict was being killed, Shorts was there.
As far as I've said in my statement that we had funerals in my community of two to three bodies of a youth each and every week, I attended those funerals, but each and every time somebody dies in my community, the name Shorts will be mentioned in those funerals. Minnie, Shorts, Makalene and Subuku, those names are popular names in my community. The Police who were seriously working I will so call, like Mamasela.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he someone you deliberately executed?
MR MAKHULENI: Not deliberate executed, our mission was already started before we met him, we never hunted certain Police Officers, but he was there at that particular time.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, the next matter is that you said that after you had shot the Policeman in the vehicle, you took his pump-action gun and later threw it away.
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you throw it away?
MR MAKHULENI: It was my co-accused who threw it away because we had no bags at the time to hide it. I mean a pump-action is a very long ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You couldn't carry it around.
MR MAKHULENI: We couldn't carry it away. Zole took it and ran away with it so Mbiyiseli took it and said, come on baba, this is mjojo, and threw it away.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you said you were going to destroy the Langa Police Station, but you failed because you were not skilled enough for the job.
MR MAKHULENI: Would you like me to justify that, sir?
CHAIRPERSON: Mm?
MR MAKHULENI: Would you like me to justify that? What happened is that Zole gave us information about this particular Police Station, that it was used as a place to torture, as it - even if maybe someone could go and take pictures of that place would see that it's away from the Township, big outskirts.
Zole was tortured there and also many comrades complained about that particular Police Station is used as a place to torture many comrades, even the girlfriend of my friends were tortured somewhere in those Police Stations.
So what happened is that when Zole came up with this information I assigned him to go back, given the whole weekend, to look at what time could we get to that Police Station without any danger to us, like for instance to make us civilians. He came up with a report, he told that at 8 o'clock we should be there because at 8 o'clock is the appropriate time to attack the Police Station. We could destroy it, there are probably two or three Police Officers inside, that would be enough for us to kill and to destroy the whole place. I went myself to take my own civilians.
Is it true what you were saying, I spent the whole weekend, I saw exactly what Zole was saying is true, that if we could be there at 8 o'clock exactly we will manage to do the job well. But what happened that we were delayed at my aunt's place, we arrived at the place at 20h30 and at that time there were two vans in the yard and also this Police Officer was speaking to another guy at the gate. We waited there. At about 150 metres away from the Police Station there's a house, I might be wrong about the distance, maybe 100 or something.
So we stayed there about 30 minutes, it was till 21h00. People were still shouting, talking, talking, talking, I understand. So I said, okay comrade let's come back at 22h00 because I know at 10h00 it's teatime for them, they won't be here.
CHAIRPERSON: Is this 09h00 in the morning?
MR MAKHULENI: 21h00 at night, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: 21h00 at night.
MR MAKHULENI: Let's take a walk and go to ...(indistinct) or that place is not far ...(indistinct). Let's go there, there's a ...(indistinct) show there. Let's just take a walk, we'll be back at 22h00. 22h00 we'll get the place as much as - we'll get the place so as we wanted to. When we left in retreating going to Jubel Hotel, but have to pass, it's the one way out, is to go through the Police Station again to pass in front of it. We were stopped, we were hijacked, we were gun-pointed, that's what happened.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, now I want to ask you some personal questions.
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: As I understand here, while you were still at school you were traced on one day, on February the 13th, by the Police and two Vigilantes and you were shot in your left leg, but you managed to get away.
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: And finally, while you were outside the country - you had safely left the country, you were spoken to by politicians about returning to the country.
MR MAKHULENI: That is so.
CHAIRPERSON: Then you raised the question of your security and that the fact that there were outstanding cases against you.
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand your report here, you said that you were told that you were South Africans, you belonged in South Africa and all those of you who had outstanding political cases would be granted amnesty.
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Under the Joint Military Command.
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: And that you would then be integrated with other forces here.
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Now on that basis you came back and you were integrated.
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: And you told the - you made a complete disclosure to the people of the National Peace-keeping Force.
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: And they told you then there was nothing for you to worry about because you had amnesty.
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: And you continued in the Military for some time, till the 1st of September 1994, and then when you went back home you were arrested for these outstanding charges which,
MR MAKHULENI: Yes, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR NYOKA: Mr Chairperson, before I conclude, I just want to call one witness. He's not going to be longer that 10 minutes. Mr Sipho Wilton Sokelelo.
SIPHO WILTON SOKELELO: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA: Mr Sokelelo, your name was mentioned by applicant no 1, Mr Mjikwa. Do you know the two applicants?
MR SOKELELO: Yes.
MR NYOKA: At the time, what was your position or membership, during '87 to '90?
MR SOKELELO: I was a UDF Executive.
MR NYOKA: Of Uitenhage or Eastern Cape, specify please?
MR SOKELELO: Uitenhage, I was a local executive.
MR NYOKA: How do you know them, the applicants?
MR SOKELELO: The first one is Mbuyiseli Mjikwa, I know him from the Youth group as we worked together. His colleague has already said we knew each other through the work that we did, we found out that he's in the Youth Group, these were the people that we could work together with in the Youth Organisation.
We were trying to make them leaders of the Youth Organisation so that they could advise the rest of the youth. Time elapsed and there were difficulties, it was difficult for the - the people who were after the UDF was the Special Branch, like Gerber. They were after us. We were in the liberation struggle. They found out that they could not win us over, so what they did is to divide us, cut us in half. Mr Ganke was a member of the PAC, he was taken by Fiks Gobese and they worked closely together.
There was a massacre in Uitenhage, that is why started working together, we all started working together with Gantjie from the PAC. The enemy then decided to divide our people so that the enemy can use some of our people against us. Most of the time it was difficult for them to get certain information if there was no enemy amongst us. They then divided us. We then had no real places where we could scatter and hide.
MR NYOKA: Were you aware of the acts committed against certain State organs, like the murdering of Policeman, and what was you attitude towards that?
MR SOKELELO: The organisation that we worked for and supported in South Africa was the ANC that was banned when the UDF affiliated the ANC. The Congress was focused on the white people. A ...(indistinct) is where white people eat,
INTERPRETER: The interpreter had difficulty understanding the words that the speaker is using.
MR NYOKA: OR is Oliver Tambo, Oliver Reginald Tambo, he assumed that you knew that.
INTERPRETER: No, I understood that, but it's difficult to understand the words that he's using. Did the witness say that the places where the white people were eating where being bombed?
MR SOKELELO: MK was planting bombs in all the places where white people ate. The ANC was then celebrating its anniversary outside the country and a new Constitution was formed. The documents were handed out to all the organisations in South Africa. The time had come to an end where we had to focus on white people. We had to focus on the people that worked for and supported the enemy, the Police. That is when Mbuyiseli and them decided to reach a certain decision, they decided to hit the enemy and his followers. That is why we could not ask them to stop what they were doing because they were being oppressed by the Police.
Black Policemen and Coloured Policemen were being used, they're the ones that were harassing us together with the PAC, the Vigilantes. It was then difficult to control the youth because they were being motivated because they saw their people being killed in the Townships.
As far as Mbuyiseli Mjikwa is concerned, when he came out of jail, whatever way he got out of jail, comrade Fiks had advised me that he'd got out of jail. He said that I should find a way to hide him. He said that he would be responsible for his hiding. Before I found a place for him we then decided to take him to Motherwell in the shacks. I couldn't remember now where it is, but we took him there. After a while we then took him to Mtanzania.
I worked from Mtanzania, because my work was to take somebody who was in trouble or in danger, and hand him over to my comrades in Mtanzania for safety. I was working for my brother, Tsawene Sokelela. They accepted him, they said that he is a colleague, and he should wait there. I then was told to go back to Uitenhage. That is all that I know about Mbuyiseli, I left him there in Mtanzania. I don't think that their killing the enemy is wrong. For their nation to die, their people to die, it was better for them to put their lives in danger. We did not tell them to kill people, it is the pain within them that caused them to pick the stone up and throw it at the enemy. Thank you.
MR NYOKA: You made a somewhat dangerous statement, you said that the ANC had earlier on targeted white people. Are you not making a mistake to the effect that perhaps you meant soldiers who were invariably white soldiers?
MR SOKELELO: Please repeat your question.
MR NYOKA: Unless I'm making a mistake, Mr Chairman, I don't think that was the position of the ANC, that earlier on ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say that comrades focused on white people, and places where whites ate bombed with bombs planted by Umkhonto, places where they ate?
MR NYOKA: Unless I'm wrong, Chairperson, that was never the objective of the ANC.
CHAIRPERSON: But that's what your witness has said, wasn't it?
MR NYOKA: Do you still stand by that statement? Unless I am the one who is wrong, maybe I'm not acquainted with ancient history anymore.
MR SOKELELO: I'm not mistaken, I stand by that, it is so. During the apartheid ANC was focused on the oppressor, the white man. The enemy that was giving us problems in Uitenhage was the Special Branch, Gerber and them black members. This is why I said the ANC was focused on the white man because we were oppressed by the white man, like the branches that I have mentioned.
MR NYOKA: Finally, when they committed those acts as you said, each person felt his or her own pain, you did not reprimand them, despite knowing that they were the ones who committed the acts of murder and robbery on the Police persons, you did not reprimand them or disassociate yourselves from their actions?
MR SOKELELO: I said it was difficult to control the youth. It was the pain within them, seeing their parents being beaten, their friends being killed, they then had to take whatever weapon they had to attack the enemy.
MR NYOKA: But you did not dissociate yourselves from their actions, that was the question? Yes or no?
MR SOKELELO: I am talking about my views. I totally associated with them, that they should hit the enemy in whatever way they had to hit the enemy.
MR NYOKA: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA
MR GQUOMO: No questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR GQUOMO
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Mr Sokelelo, just one question, did the actions which were committed by the applicants, and for which the applicants now seek amnesty, contribute in advancing the aims of the organisation for which they say they were acting?
MR SOKELELO: The work that the comrades did is such that they played a large role in this political struggle in Uitenhage. They had to do whatever they needed to do because of the pressure that was upon them. The enemy divided us. We were working together as different organisations, but they came and they divided us.
MR MAPOMA: No I don't think you've answered my question. My question is whether their actions did advance the struggle waged by the UDF then.
MR SOKELELO: Yes.
MR MAPOMA: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: I've just got one question. The first applicant in his affidavit refers to Comrade-Major Sokelelo. Is that you or your brother?
MR SOKELELO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you the person who arranged a passport for the applicant?
MR SOKELELO: No, that was my brother.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how he did it, or was it through the Party?
MR SOKELELO: What happened is, or what I was doing as my job is to take somebody who is in danger, I would take the person to East London and then I would disappear from the picture.
CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know?
MR SOKELELO: I don't know how he got the passport.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MAPOMA: No further witnesses, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Any witnesses.
MR NYOKA: None, Your Honour, no further evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready to address us now, Mr Nyoka?
MR NYOKA: Ready Your Worship.
MR NYOKA IN ARGUMENT: With regard firstly to political motive, the two applicants have shown political motive, that was to render the Townships ungovernable and to defeat the organs of the State, like the Police, and to acquire the firearms for those purposes. No personal gain in all the incidents, like there were no rewards for the acts or acquisition of property like money or clothing, etc from the victims.
Applicant no 1 outlined at length the political motivations in Exhibit D. So did applicant no 2, who was very, very articulate. Even though the murders and robberies were not expressly mandated by their mother bodies like the UDF or UEKO, it was an implied mandate in that they were never reprimanded by their leaders, nor were their actions publicly denounced. Most importantly the UDF, which was a front for the ANC, only a 10 year old did not know that the UDF was a front for the ANC. Through its foot-soldiers like the applicants applied its policy of attacks on hard targets, being inter alia the South African Police and the SA Defence Force and other reactionaries or perceived reactionaries like Ama-Africa. Soft targets were explicitly forbidden at some stage, that is soft targets being ordinary civilians.
As far as full disclosure is concerned, the applicants made a full disclosure of not only the incidents they were convicted and sentenced, but also those for which they were acquitted, to show that they are bone fide or acting in good faith and take the process of amnesty seriously. To show that they made a full disclosure for instance, the only victim, Mr Yose, the Traffic Officer, who was legally represented here did not through his legal representative pose any questions, nor I will assume, oppose the applications. They were satisfactory, truthful and reliable and obviously intelligent witnesses, especially in Exhibit D, where applicant Mjikwa, who prepared his own motivation for his actions in a prepared speech, reminded one of the address from the witness box in the Rivonia trial of our now President Nelson Mandela. He acted like Nelson Mandela, maybe he will be one in future.
The final aspect of the application form, Mr Chairperson, the intention applicant no 2 has complied with that requirement. Let's come to applicant no 1 where there was a problem. The intention of applicant no 1 at all material times, and before the cut-off date, was to apply for amnesty for every criminal act that was politically motivated, including those for which he was acquitted. A lay person who initially and timeously applies for amnesty cannot be unduly blamed for his or application getting botched at some stage. Surely that was never the intention of the element.
CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it just as likely that a lay person would not bother to apply for amnesty for a matter he had been acquitted in?
MR NYOKA: Yes, but it shows that he wanted to say everything. I don't think they shall be treated in any poor light. The one who even applies for matters for which he was acquitted shows that he is promoting the TRC process, the Truth and Reconciliation by so doing. He's embracing it, he's an example of embracing the TRC process for the betterment of everyone in South Africa. I don't say someone who doesn't apply for matters for which he was acquitted, I mean is wrong, but it shows that the good spirit in which he's embracing the Truth and Reconciliation process and principle and concept and practice. Surely that was never the intention of legislature to forbid such genuine applicants from having their applications entertained. Applicant 2 complied with this requirement as I've said. It was furthermore applicant no 1's intention at all material times when he referred to an incident, we have meant not only a particular legal incident like murder and robbery, but we encompass them in one act, especially as the act of murder and robbery occurred simultaneously, therefor, Mr Chairperson, I think this is a classical case where applicants have satisfactorily complied with all the recommendations of the act, and should be granted amnesty without any hesitation. Thank you.
MR GQUOMO: Thank you, Mr Chair. Due to the fact that the applicants have applied for an act for which they were not convicted and the - I am of the view that I am not - on instructions of my client not going to make any submission and abide by the decision of the Committee. Thank you.
MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir, no argument.
CHAIRPERSON: As I indicated at the commencement, we will examine the files, because it seems to me there may have been problems as we said at some stage during the discussion. There are two numbers on his application form and it may be that there were other enquiries made or something was done. And there's also the problem between the judgement in the court a quo and the judgement in the Appellate Division which we want to look at the papers about, so we'll take time. If we do discover anything that requires any further investigation or matters of that nature we will communicate with you so you can make any submissions you want to or take any further action.
MR NYOKA: Thank you, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: That concludes the hearing of the matters that are set down here and we will accordingly adjourn. I would thank the members of the audience for the patience they have shown when we have started late on occasions, there's been some singing perhaps, but as soon as we've come into the hall there has been perfect peace and quiet, and I would thank all of you.
MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, just on a lighter note, the singing must have been attributed to the fact that yesterday we were very morose at losing at the game in France, so we have to sing today.
HEARING ADJOURNS
