Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon everybody. I apologise for the late start in this matter but the delay was due to a lack of documentation or getting further documents pertaining to this matter.

Before we start I'd like to introduce the panel to you. On my right I have Dr Tsotsi, he's an attorney from Port Elizabeth. On my far right, Mr Ilan Lax who is an attorney from Pietermaritzburg and on my immediate right is Advocate Francis Bosman who is from the Cape. I am Selwyn Miller, a Judge in the Transkei Division of the High Court.

CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION PROCEDURES

The matter that we're going to hear first is the applications of Kwanele Msizi and Pakamile Cishe.

I'd request the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MR NTONGA: I am BB Ntonga from BB Ntonga, East London. I appear for the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ntonga.

MR GRIEBENOW: I am Alwyn Griebenow from the firm: Goldberg and de Villiers. I appear on behalf of Inspector Horn and Captain Neethling.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Griebenow.

MR VAN DER MERWE: My name is Francoise van der Merwe. I appear on behalf of the victims of the families, Gerber and de Wet.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS PATEL: I'm Rumela Patel, Leader of Evidence for the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Miss Patel.

I think we can then commence with this application. Mr Ntonga?

MR NTONGA: Mr Chairman, can the applicant be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: Which applicant are you calling first?

MR NTONGA: Mr Msizi.

MR MSIZI: No, I don't want to take any oath.

KWANELE MSIZI: (affirms and states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Ntonga?

MR NTONGA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Ntonga, just for the convenience of your client, he doesn't have to lean forward as these microphones are very sensitive. He can leave it there and just relax and talk normally, he will be heard quite well from there.

EXAMINATION BY MR NTONGA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Msizi, when were you born?

MR MSIZI: 27th December 1965, in Port Elizabeth.

MR NTONGA: Where did you reside before you were arrested and convicted?

MR MSIZI: I was staying at home.

MR NTONGA: Where is that, the address?

MR MSIZI: 29 Djana Street, Port Elizabeth. Zwide.

MR NTONGA: You are aware that you are making application to the Commission for amnesty and that you have to tell the Commission everything that you know about the incidents that led to your conviction, is that so?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR NTONGA: Let us start by asking you this question, when did you join PAC as a member?

MR MSIZI: I joined PAC in 1984.

MR NTONGA: Where was that?

MR MSIZI: I joined in Port Elizabeth.

MR NTONGA: And when were you recruited to the military wing of PAC?

MR MSIZI: I joined APLA early in 1990.

MR NTONGA: Having joined APLA early in 1990, who recruited you to start with, to join APLA?

MR MSIZI: Jabu Ndunge.

MR NTONGA: Having joined the APLA structure, tell the Commission what happened thereafter.

MR MSIZI: I went to Transkei.

MR NTONGA: With whom did you go to Transkei?

MR MSIZI: I was with Jabu Ndunge, Pakamile Cishe. There were many other soldiers from APLA.

MR NTONGA: Were you all from Port Elizabeth?

MR MSIZI: We were all from Port Elizabeth and some from Grahamstown.

MR NTONGA: Sorry, Mr Chairman, it's Utenhage.

INTERPRETER: Sorry, Utenhage.

MR NTONGA: Thank you.

And then where did you go in the Transkei?

MR MSIZI: We went to Sterkspruit.

MR NTONGA: To do what in Sterkspruit?

MR MSIZI: We went to train.

MR NTONGA: Where in Sterkspruit?

MR MSIZI: In the camps that were in Sterkspruit.

MR NTONGA: What did you train in and who trained you in these camps?

MR MSIZI: Xhonis Nonxeba and Jabu Ndunge were our commanders.

MR NTONGA: And what did they train you in?

MR MSIZI: They trained us on how to use the guns and the weapons.

MR NTONGA: Was there a variety of guns, weapons that you have been trained to use?

MR MSIZI: Please repeat your question, Sir.

MR NTONGA: Was there a variety of weapons in which you were trained?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR NTONGA: Were you the only lot that trained there in that camp or were there other people who came in to be trained also?

MR MSIZI: There were other people from other places as well. They were there already when we arrived.

MR NTONGA: For how long were you trained in this camp in Sterkspruit?

MR MSIZI: About six months.

MR NTONGA: After your training, what happened?

MR MSIZI: After the training the unit commander, Jabu Ndunge and the deputy commander Mongezi Takata, myself and Pakamile Cishe came to Port Elizabeth with ammunition and weapons.

MR NTONGA: Do you still remember what ammunition and weapons you were given from the camp?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I do remember.

MR NTONGA: What were they?

MR MSIZI: It was AK47's, Tokeroff and handgrenades, sticks and RG85.

MR NTONGA: How many AK47's?

MR MSIZI: About four AK57 as we were also in the number of four.

MR NTONGA: Were you also given ammunition for these AK47's?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR NTONGA: When you left camp in Sterkspruit, what were your specific instructions, what were you going to do in Port Elizabeth?

MR MSIZI: When we came to Port Elizabeth we had to fight the Boers known as whites, the riot squads that were killing people in the locations. So we came back to defend the people.

MR NTONGA: Will I be correct to say that your specific instructions or your specific target was the police patrolling ...[intervention]

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairman, I wonder, this has direct - excuse me, this has direct and relevant bearing of the political motive and I would appreciate it if my learned colleague him specifically on the political motive they intended to achieve.

CHAIRPERSON: You can ask questions but you're heard Mr van der Merwe leading questions.

MR NTONGA: Okay, Mr Chairman.

You said that you came to P.E. and there were four in this unit.

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR NTONGA: When you were in P.E., can you tell the Committee what was your first mission, what did you do?

MR MSIZI: In our first mission we killed policemen and an informer.

MR NTONGA: Okay. Start from the beginning and tell the Committee everything, where you met, what you were armed with and how you carried out the operation. To start with, who was involved in the unit?

MR MSIZI: In our unit we had Jabu Ndunge, Mongezi Takata, Kwanele Msizi, Pakamile Cishe.

MR NTONGA: And when was this first operation that you carried out?

MR MSIZI: It was November, 18 November 1990.

MR NTONGA: And how were you armed in this unit?

MR MSIZI: The four us, each and everyone had an AK47, spare magazines, handgrenades, about six of them.

MR NTONGA: And before going to this operation did you do something in order to facilitate the operation?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR NTONGA: Please tell the Committee.

MR MSIZI: Before we went to this mission to kill the policemen we made arrangements to go and steal cars in order for us to be mobile so we were stealing cars as well. And then after we stole that particular car, we were using it with our arms, go and look for the policemen or the targets and shoot them.

MR NTONGA: Before this operation did you do so?

MR MSIZI: Yes, we did that.

MR NTONGA: Do you still remember who went to steal the car and from where?

MR MSIZI: The one who went to steal the car was myself, Jabu Ndunge. Pakamile was left behind and Mongezi Takata as well.

MR NTONGA: Did you get a car?

MR MSIZI: Yes, we did.

MR NTONGA: Go on, what happened here? You've stolen a car, you are ready for the mission, tell the Committee what happened from that point.

MR MSIZI: We came back from stealing the car and we went to our place where we used to meet, take our guns

and hand grenades with the Magazines. We went to search for the policemen. We found them at night. We shot them.

MR NTONGA: Were you looking for particular policemen or any policemen you would meet in the location?

MR MSIZI: We were just looking for any policemen because they were the ones who were defending apartheid and they were the ones who were working for the past regime.

MR NTONGA: Where were you looking for these policemen?

MR MSIZI: We were patrolling in the locations, New Brighton. We searched right through Zakele, Zwide and we went to Makwaki. When we couldn't see any policemen we went to Algoa or in Louis le Grange whereby we can get them.

When we went out to find them at the stop street and we parked at the bus stop. We waited for them to turn because they were turning on the right and we waited there to shoot them.

They didn't turn where they were indicated to, they just went up straight across the railway line next to Dorangenza and we followed them, switched off the car lights. They went to Bertram. We followed them ...[intervention]

MR NTONGA: Is Bertram a street?

MR MSIZI: Yes, it is a straight. We went following them. They went straight next to a tavern known as Joe's Place. We went into Matitibe Street, we turned to the left and we reached Makanda Street, went down following them in order so that we can just come in front of their car. We waited there in Mahoman Street. They came and we shot them and they died.

MR NTONGA: How many people were in the vehicle?

MR MSIZI: They were three.

MR NTONGA: Okay. When you started shooting, did all four of you start shooting or were some shooting, some not shooting, what was the position?

MR MSIZI: During that time when we were shooting we don't listen or notice who is going to shoot first or who is supposed to follow because each and everyone has his own AK, so we were just shooting. I didn't notice who shot first or who followed.

MR NTONGA: But you yourself confirm that you shot at the vehicle with the three occupants.

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR NTONGA: You wouldn't know whether you hit somebody or not?

MR MSIZI: I know that I did hit somebody because the way that I was shooting I made it a point that I'm shooting to kill.

MR NTONGA: Having you shot at this vehicle, what happened thereafter?

MR MSIZI: After that we shot at them and the vehicle moved passing our car that we were driving into a fence. There was a school nearby so it went right straight into the fence and we get off the car following them, shooting at them. And then we went back to the car.

MR NTONGA: And from there, where did you drive to? From that spot.

MR MSIZI: We drove through Bertram. When we were passing this place, Joe's Place our unit commander, Jabu took out an AK47 pointing outside and he shot in the air. I asked him what he was doing and he said that he's just informing the masses that the cadres are here.

We drove and we left the car near a power station in kwaZakhele and we left it there and we went off back to the scrapyard. The following morning we bought a newspaper whereby we saw that they have found the lost car and they got the information about the people who were driving the car, shooting the policemen because they had the cartridges in the car.

MR NTONGA: Why did you place this vehicle near the power station, what was the purpose?

MR MSIZI: We left - we could have left this car anywhere where we saw that we were safe, wherever we decided to drop the car so that we can also survive. So we picked that place.

MR NTONGA: And then, when was your next operation?

MR MSIZI: We again on the 26th of December the same year 1990, we searched for the police. We went to the beach where there were a lot of police there. We arrived at the beach and there were parkings that you had to pay when you park there and the police guarded those parkings. The parking where the cars were not guarded you could park your car anywhere in those parkings.

We then parked the car on the side where we're supposed to pay. One police came to us and he said that we had to pay R12,00 in order to park the car there because those cars were guarded.

We then asked them that we were going to pay, who is this land that we were supposed to because they were not belonging here in Azania and they expected us to pay, even though they were not belonging here. We were provoking them so that they could come in numbers so that we can attack all of them.

MR NTONGA: Did you do anything there on that beach or not?

MR MSIZI: No, because a lot of people came and there were children involved. They came to watch what we were doing and we could see that people could die although we wanted only to kill the police. We then apologised and we left. We went back to Zwide.

In Zwide we found the police and they were chasing us. There were also other people who asked for a lift from the beach. They were chasing us and we ran away so that we can drop the people who asked for a lift.

We dropped these people and we left them and then we went out searching for the police. We found the police and then we shot at them.

MR NTONGA: Was this on the 26th of December 1990?

MR MSIZI: Yes, it was on the 26th of December 1990. I think only AK47 belonging to Jabu worked on that day. We had a problem with the bullets, we could shoot with our AK47's. We then threw handgrenades and it exploded and we left.

MR NTONGA: You say that only Jabu's AK47 worked and the other three could not work because of a problem with bullets. Who threw the grenade?

MR MSIZI: Jabu threw a handgrenade because his AK47 had stopped shooting.

MR NTONGA: Was anybody killed in this operation on the 26th of December?

MR MSIZI: No, nobody died, they were only injured. I was very worried that they did not die.

MR NTONGA: Where did you leave this gun? Did you abandon it at the scene or drop it somewhere else?

MR MSIZI: We left it next to them where we stopped.

MR NTONGA: And where was this place?

MR MSIZI: At Sikato Street in Zwide.

MR NTONGA: And how many were you, were you still the complete unit of four?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR NTONGA: Did you carry out any further operations where you fired at people, at the policemen apart from these two operations?

MR MSIZI: No, there were no other operations because after that we were arrested even though we wanted to continue shooting them.

MR NTONGA: Okay. In the indictment in the criminal court you were convicted of stealing six cars and you have only told the Committee about two cars, can you explain the other four cars?

MR MSIZI: The other cars were involved when we were searching for the police but we couldn't find them so we would decide to drop and go home to sleep.

MR NTONGA: Did you retain any of the six cars that you were charged with for stealing, either after the operation or when you could not find any targets?

MR MSIZI: No, we did not retain any cars. There was a car where Pakamile Cishe was arrested while he was from stealing it. He was with Mongezi Takata. They were arrested in that car. He was then released on bail of R1 500,00.

MR NTONGA: In your affidavit you say to the Committee that before you were recruited to the APLA structure you did have some previous convictions of car theft, confirmed.

MR MSIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NTONGA: And in your affidavit you also say that your commander was Jabu Ndunge, what rank did he have in the APLA structure?

MR MSIZI: I knew him in our unit as a field commander.

MR NTONGA: Field commander of the APLA structure?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR NTONGA: And when you undertook these operations you were under his command, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NTONGA: Do you know what happened to him?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I do know what happened to him. He was shot by the police and they killed him.

MR NTONGA: Do you know what happened to the Deputy Unit Commander, Takata?

MR MSIZI: Yes, they also killed him the same way they killed Jabu.

MR NTONGA: Can you tell the Committee why you were involved in these operations, APLA operations?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I can tell the Commission. The reason why I was involved in these operations was because of the iron hand of the past regime. It was frustrating and oppressing the black people. I took a decision to be trained how to use the gun so that I can face them as well in order for them to face one with guns as they are not facing people who are armless.

MR NTONGA: Are you saying to the Committee that you were only involved in the operations after you have trained, you have joined APLA and trained for six months in Sterkstroom and not before that?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR NTONGA: And at all times you were under a commander by the name of Ndunge, in both operations that you were involved in?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR NTONGA: Did you as a person receive any benefit from your operations that you have mentioned to the Committee?

MR MSIZI: No, not at all, no benefits because we were not soldiers who were employed just like the SADAF ones who were getting paid by killing people. We were just defending the people from the whites.

MR NTONGA: Chairman, bear with me.

In your operations, both of them, is it correct that only policemen were shot at or police vehicles were shot at, injuring some policemen and killing three of them?

MR MSIZI: Yes, it's true.

MR NTONGA: Do you know the third person who died in the first attack, was he a black man? Was he also a policeman or was he just there by bad luck, if can call it that way? The third man. The two were policemen but there was a third black man there.

MR MSIZI: This third person was an informer because as far as I know you cannot be in the front seat of the police vehicle being an ordinary person. Seemingly, once you are in that seat you are working for the police and he had a balaclava and a police jacket as well whilst we were shooting them with those police.

MR NTONGA: If the Committee can bear with me. That's the evidence, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTONGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ntonga.

Mr Griebenow, do you have any questions to ask this witness?

MR GRIEBENOW: Mr Chairman, yes, thank you. Before the proceedings started I was placed in possession of certain documentation which is quite a thick bundle with regard to this amnesty application and I have not had the opportunity to have a look at this documentation. I would request you at this stage an opportunity to have a look at this documentation because it might be of importance when cross-examining this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Griebenow, would it not be possible to do that during the lunch adjournment? We've arranged to take the lunch adjournment at half past one because we missed so much time this morning. I wouldn't like to miss more time.

MR GRIEBENOW: That's fine so. I and my colleague, Mr van der Merwe are prepared to work through the documentation during lunch break in order to continue when we start again after the lunch break.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairman, sorry to come in here like this. I think it's fair that my learned colleague, Mr Ntonga, has to be provided with this documentation. He hasn't worked through this with his client and we ourselves haven't had a look at it and I think it's fair if he is granted the opportunity to deal with it with his client before he concludes his evidence in chief. I would request that the Committee takes the adjournment now and we can continue after the lunch hour.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntonga, do you agree with what Mr van der Merwe says, that you would like to take a look at this bundle before concluding your examination in chief of your client?

MR GRIEBENOW: Yes, Mr Chairman because I didn't have any sight of that document. I don't know what is there. I don't know what to admit and what not to admit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR GRIEBENOW: I've had no instructions on that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think then in the circumstances we will take the adjournment now but we'd like to start then at 2 o'clock please. As I've said I've arranged with the caterers for lunch at half past one because we knew that we would be starting late and we didn't want to be too short before then, so you can do your work before you start eating.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

KWANELE MSIZI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Ntonga?

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, before I close my leading of the applicant, may I just ask about a few matters to clarify one or two matters?

The first one is this scrapyard. Can you tell me who used to stay or to be around the scrapyard that you talked about and where is the scrapyard?

MR MSIZI: The scrapyard is in kwaZakhele. The person who was staying there was Jabu and Mongezi.

MR NTONGA: Where did you personally and the other applicant?

MR MSIZI: Pakamile and myself were staying in ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Come again, I didn't get that?

MR MSIZI: We were staying in Motherwell.

MR NTONGA: Okay. Another point. In this bundle I see that you have submitted three applications, one is in Xhosa. Did you write that application in Xhosa yourself, submit it yourself to the Committee?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I wrote it myself.

MR NTONGA: And then the second one, who assisted you with the second application?

MR MSIZI: I was assisted by my lawyer, Mr Ntonga.

MR NTONGA: And the third one?

MR MSIZI: The third one was written by Michael Xlasheme.

MR NTONGA: In your first Xhosa application did you receive queries from the Truth and Reconciliation Committee that you must attend to?

MR MSIZI: No, I didn't ask any questions but the results came back as saying that that application was not fulfilled so I was then asked to write another one.

MR NTONGA: Is that when you were assisted by attorneys? Is it then that you consulted the attorneys to assist you?

MR MSIZI: Yes, that's why I asked my lawyers to assist me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntonga, while you're dealing with the question of the applications, I notice from the applicant's application he applies for amnesty in respect of murder and attempted on the 18th and 26th of November 1990 and Mr Cishe's application is written that he applies for the same but mentions car thefts but also only refers to those two dates. What is the position with regard to the application relating to the car thefts?

MR NTONGA: Mr Chairman, the cars that were used in the operations ...[intervention}

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] those two days.

MR NTONGA: Those two days, but as I explained in the affidavit and in the evidence in chief that some, there were some other occasions where cars were stolen but no targets were found. So that's why there are actually six car thefts instead of two only.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they applying in respect of six car thefts?

MR NTONGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the dates of the other car thefts is that between the 18th of November and the 26th of December?

MR NTONGA: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Excuse me Mr Chairman, for the help of the Committee, on page 24 of the bundle the exact dates of the car theft and the places where they were stolen is provided for the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Merwe. Page 24, Mr Ntonga. That's the reference to the various charges they faced. Yes, it seems to be between those two dates as you say.

MR NTONGA: As the Chairman pleases.

Mr Chairman, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I see it's just been pointed out to me, one is the 15th of November.

MR NTONGA: Mr Chairman, those are the points I wanted to place on record, of behalf of the applicant. That completes my leading of evidence.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTONGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ntonga.

Mr Griebenow, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GRIEBENOW: Thank you very much Chairperson. Firstly I would like to thank you for granting me the opportunity of going through the documents. I do have questions for this applicant.

Mr Msizi, in your evidence in chief you mentioned that you completed three amnesty applications, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR GRIEBENOW: If I understood your evidence correctly the first application you completed was an application in your own handwriting which was completed in Xhosa, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR GRIEBENOW: I accept that you are conversant with the information and the questions that were put to you in this form?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just repeat your question, Mr Griebenow.

Mr Msizi, my question to you is, are you conversant with the answers that you gave to the questions in this particular application form?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I was answering the questions.

MR GRIEBENOW: And do you confirm today that the answers that you gave in the first application form that you completed, do you confirm that it is correct?

MR MSIZI: There were mistakes in the first applications. They are the ones that pushed me to contact my lawyer.

MR GRIEBENOW: What kinds of mistakes were in the first application form?

MR MSIZI: The one that states we were doing this out of our own will, not under the circumstances or the rule of the unit commander. Can you please explain how you made this mistake?

MR MSIZI: I cannot clarify because I've said already that as I've made the application and answered the question, the answer the from the TRC said my evidence was not enough. So that's the reason I contacted my lawyer and he assisted me.

MR GRIEBENOW: Mr Msizi, let me make it simple. According to the first application that was completed in your own handwriting and in your own language you mention that you took your own initiative, acted on your own initiative and you never received any command to launch these operations.

MR MSIZI: Will you please repeat the question?

MR GRIEBENOW: Certainly. According to your first application which was completed in your own handwriting by yourself and which was completed in your own language you mention that you launched these operations on your own initiative. In other words you never received any command to that effect, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: No, it's not like that. We got the instructions from our commander as he was always with us each and every time we were doing the operations.

MR GRIEBENOW: Mr Msizi, I think you probably don't understand the question. I don't want to know what the real questions was, I would just like to know from you, is correct that in your first application form in your own language and in your own handwriting there you mention that you acted on your own initiative?

MR MSIZI: As I've clarified before, and I do understand your question but you don't want to answer my answer. I would like you to understand my answer. We were doing this under the instructions of our unit commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Griebenow, which paragraph are you referring to in the application? Is it 11(a) and (b).

MR GRIEBENOW: That is correct, Chairperson, it's 17(e).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue.

MR GRIEBENOW: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Msizi, I would like to read what you wrote in your language and in your own handwriting. I'm referring to paragraph 11(a) as it was translated from page 17(e) of the minutes that I have. I will first read the question to you:

"Were the acts, omissions or offences committed in the execution of an order of/or on behalf of/or with the approval of the organisation, institution, body, liberation movement, state department or security force concerned?"

Did you understand this question?

MR MSIZI: Please repeat your question Mr Griebenow.

MR GRIEBENOW: I see your legal representative gave you the minutes. Paragraph 11(a), the question there, did you understand it?

MR LAX: Mr Griebenow, maybe you should let him read the Xhosa version of that question which I'm sure he would understand. If he read us his answer in Xhosa and it was translated directly to us we'd hear it anyway and we would get his direct words himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 15.

MR GRIEBENOW: Mr Msizi, if you look at page 15 of the minutes, can you read out the answer as it is written there to the question of 11(a)?

MR MSIZI

"Was the act, omission or offence committed in the execution of an order of/or on behalf of/or with the approval of the organisation, the institution, the body, the liberation movement, state department or security force concerned."

MR GRIEBENOW: Can you read the answer that you gave there?

MR MSIZI: I acted on behalf of an organisation, political organisation.

MR GRIEBENOW: Please continue. Mr Msizi, can you read your full answer to us please?

MR MSIZI: Okay.

"I acted on behalf of a liberation movement the PAC, under its military wing APLA but I was not given an instruction, I did this because I was a liberation fighter under APLA."

MR GRIEBENOW: Very well, that was the first question that you answered to, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: That is correct.

MR GRIEBENOW: After this - or let me put it this way, this application you completed without the assistance of legal counsel, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: The application was not completed because I got an answer from the Truth Commission saying that my application form is not complete and that is why I consulted my lawyer to complete my application form. I would say it was complete if the TRC said my application form was complete, if the TRC didn't say my application form wasn't complete.

MR GRIEBENOW: Very well. All I'm trying to find out from you is: this application form and the answer that was dealt with was completed by you without the assistance of legal counsel, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: No, I was not assisted by a legal counsel.

MR GRIEBENOW: Very well. Now after this you completed another application form and you were assisted by legal counsel, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR GRIEBENOW: And in the second application form that was completed where you had assistance of legal counsel your answer to the same question differs from the answer that you gave in the initial application, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: The first application form - I won't be answering questions concerning the first application form because the TRC said that it was not complete. I then made another application form with my lawyer. So I think you should ask me questions about the second application form that was complete because I can see that you are going up and down now.

MR GRIEBENOW: Mr Msizi, is it correct that the answer the same question in the second application form differs greatly from the answer you gave to that question in the first application form?

MR MSIZI: Yes, that is correct, it is different. So you must then ask me questions about the second application form that was completed. The TRC accepted this application form and they said that it was complete. Now you are asking me about the application form that is not complete, please ask me about the application form that is complete so that I can answer all your questions.

MR GRIEBENOW: Mr Msizi, can you please tell us now, what is the correct position here, did you act on your own initiative or did you act under an order of cadre Jabu Ndunge?

MR MSIZI: I did this under Jabu's instructions.

MR GRIEBENOW: If that is the correct position, did you try to mislead the TRC by means of your answer in the first application form?

MR MSIZI: I didn't try to mislead the TRC at all.

DR TSOTSI: Mr van der Merwe, can I just - I'm sorry, Mr Griebenow, the translation of these things are not quite exactly as you put it. It's what I understand. I think we should try and get a correct translation of what the witness said, in the original, in the Xhosa. He says

"Because I was a liberation fighter I was fighting for liberation under APLA."

That (Xhosa) means under the auspices, under the organisation of APLA. It does not necessarily mean - I don't think the translation is quite correct here when it says:

"On own initiative"

He says (Xhosa). That means under the organisation or under the control or under the guidance, whatever you call it, of APLA.

MR GRIEBENOW: Dr Tsotsi, I appreciate your pointing out of this to me. In the translation that I have in front of me, the last sentence of the translation makes it clear that no order was issued.

DR TSOTSI: In 11(a), his own Xhosa version of the thing. I'm trying to see. The writing is not very good for me but there doesn't seem to be an indication to that no order was issued. Where does it say: "no order"? Can we get the translator again to translate the portions"?

CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if we could not perhaps give a copy of page 15 to the translator to translate directly from the page. Perhaps you can take my copy and then ask the interpreter now to translation what is written in the handwriting on 11(a), as accurately as possible please.

MR GRIEBENOW: If at the same time I can ask Chairperson that you allow paragraph 11(b)'s answer to also be interpreted for us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. If I can then ask the interpreter to translate from the written document, the hand-written answers to paragraphs 11(a) and 11(b) and then Mr Ntonga and Dr Tsotsi you can listen sharply and be critical of such interpretation.

INTERPRETER: Under paragraph 11(a) from Xhosa into English says

"PAC the liberation movement - I was a member of the PAC, the liberation movement under the military wing known as APLA but I didn't get any order. I did this because I was a member of the freedom fighter."

CHAIRPERSON: And 11(b), the hand-written answer to 11(b) as well please.

INTERPRETER

"There are no details because nobody told me that I should do this this way or how I should do this. I did this because I knew that my organisation, APLA was using this way to fight the government. So I took part even though I didn't get instructions. I did this act that I'm here to make an application for, that I'm here for."

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, you may proceed Mr Griebenow.

MR GRIEBENOW: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Msizi, from the translation it is confirmed to us. Now we'd like to know what is the correct version, did you receive instructions for these acts for which you're applying for amnesty or did you did not receive instructions?

MR MSIZI: I was given instructions.

MR GRIEBENOW: Now if you were given instructions why did you say that you did not receive any instructions?

MR MSIZI: That is why I'm saying I've said it before, the response from the TRC on my first application is not complete so that is why I re-applied with my lawyer so that is the one that the TRC took and it was complete.

MR GRIEBENOW: Mr Msizi, with all respect, you are not answering my question. I want to know from you, if you received instructions, why in your first application form did you say that you did not receive any instructions?

MR MSIZI: I'm saying my first application was not complete that is why I re-apply, make a second application. I think I'm answering this question a fourth time.

CHAIRPERSON: In which respect was your first application not complete?

MR MSIZI: Things that we said here in the first application form - there were things that we didn't say in the first application form that we mentioned in the second application form.

MR GRIEBENOW: Mr Msizi, I want to put it to you that it's quite obvious to me when we look at the different answers in your application forms that you initial version was that you received no instructions and only after you contacted your legal advisors did you realise or did you amend your application by saying that you did receive instructions from a specific organisation. What is your comment on that?

MR MSIZI: I'm saying that I did get an instruction. Listen to my answer. I did get an instruction from my unit, from our unit commander, Jabu.

MR GRIEBENOW: Mr Msizi, do you know Masiza Ngebele Ngateni?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you repeat that name please?

MR GRIEBENOW: Certainly, Chairperson. I'm referring to page 50 of the record and there we'll find the name in the third paragraph

"Masiza Ngebele Ngateni also known as Elliot"

MR MSIZI: No, I don't know him.

MR GRIEBENOW: That's a witness who testified in the Supreme Court against you and your co-applicant. Can you remember him now?

MR MSIZI: No, I don't remember that witness.

MR GRIEBENOW: If I understand your evidence correctly you stole six vehicles, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR GRIEBENOW: The first vehicle or the one vehicle was abandoned after the second attack on the police and the police then got the vehicle back, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: That is correct.

MR GRIEBENOW: Another one of the vehicles was involved in a collision at the time when your co-applicant, Mr Cishe was arrested, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Yes, that is correct, it is the car that he was in.

MR GRIEBENOW: Can you tell us what happened to the other four vehicles?

MR MSIZI: We would leave the cars or abandon them if we didn't get the police. If we didn't find the police we would leave the car somewhere in, we'd leave it there.

MR GRIEBENOW: But what actually happened to the other four vehicles?

MR MSIZI: What happened to these cars, we would leave them behind if we didn't find or get any police. That's what happened to the other cars.

CHAIRPERSON: After you'd left those cars behind would you go back to them later at any stage or just leave them for all time?

MR MSIZI: We'd leave the car there and we wouldn't go back to where we left it.

MR GRIEBENOW: The finding of the court in the case in which you were sentenced said that three of the four vehicles we are talking about now would have been taken to Elliot, the person to whom I referred to previously and there they would be taken apart and the parts would have been sold, what's your comment on that?

MR MSIZI: What I'm saying is we would leave the cars behind. The fact that the parts, certain parts of the cars were taken I don't know anything about that, I was not there.

MR GRIEBENOW: So do you deny this finding of the court, that three of the vehicles were taken apart and the parts sold, do you deny that?

MR MSIZI: I don't know anything about that. I don't know that.

MR GRIEBENOW: Do you also deny the finding of the court that the last vehicle we're talking about, that that vehicle was handed over to another person in order for him to sell it for you and for your co-applicant?

MR MSIZI: There's no such thing.

MR GRIEBENOW: To get back to your evidence with regards to the second attack on the police. The vehicle which you used in the second attack, where did you get that vehicle from?

MR MSIZI: We got it in town.

MR GRIEBENOW: Can you remember where in town?

MR MSIZI: I'm not staying in town, I'm just saying town. I can't specify where exactly in town. If it was in Zwide where I'm staying I would tell you where but because I'm not staying in town I'm unable to tell you exactly where.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msizi, when you say "town", do you mean the city centre?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR GRIEBENOW: After you stole this vehicle where did you go with this vehicle, where did you drive to?

MR MSIZI: We drove to our base in the scrapyard. We then took our weapons to the car and we went out to shoot the police.

MR GRIEBENOW: Did all of this happen on the same day?

MR MSIZI: It happened on the following day.

MR GRIEBENOW: So the first day you stole the vehicle and the day after that you took your weapons in order to go and find police people, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Please repeat your question.

MR GRIEBENOW: If I understand your evidence correctly, the vehicle was stolen on a certain day, the vehicle was then taken to the scrapyard and the next day this same vehicle was used to go and look for police officials, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: We stole this car and then after stealing it, I don't remember how many days passed but I do remember that we had this car in our possession. We then went out searching for the police. I can't say we took it this day and the following day we went out searching for the police, I've been in prison for a long time now.

MR GRIEBENOW: Very well I accept that. Can you tell us the day of the second attack, how did it happen that you decided that you are now going to look for police officials?

MR MSIZI: We took this decision because if you go out searching for the police it is not the same as stealing a car. If we are searching for the police we know that it's another operation or mission, other than stealing a car.

MR GRIEBENOW: Very well. Do you remember which weapons you took with you during the second attack?

MR MSIZI: We had AK47's. Each and every person had his own. The hand grenades were in the cubby-hole of the car. No-one was having a handgrenade in his hand.

INTERPRETER: Can you repeat the question please?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Griebenow, can you repeat the question please?

MR GRIEBENOW: Certainly, Chairperson.

Who drove the car?

MR MSIZI: Mongezi Takata was the driver.

MR GRIEBENOW: Very well. Where were you sitting in the car?

MR MSIZI: I was seated in the back seat next to the car on the right-hand side.

MR GRIEBENOW: What time did you leave your base in order to go and find police officials?

MR MSIZI: We don't even look at the time, we were just rushing to search for the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it after dark?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR GRIEBENOW: If I hear you correctly at this instance during the second attack on the police you found two police vehicles, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR GRIEBENOW: What was your physical part in this attack? Did you fire yourself, did you fire any gun yourself?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I did.

MR GRIEBENOW: And your co-applicant, Mr Cishe, did he fire at the police during this incident?

MR MSIZI: Everybody was shooting but the one that was really taking part was Jabu because we all had a problem with our guns as I've said before. That worried me that we didn't use our weapons.

MR GRIEBENOW: The gun which you had, could you fire any shots with it?

MR MSIZI: Yes, because we were trained.

MR GRIEBENOW: Mr Msizi, I'm not trying to be funny, I would just like to find out. You said that your firearm gave you problems and all I'm trying to find out is were you able to fire any shots in spite of the problems that firearm gave you?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I was shooting. The rifle was okay but the problem was in the bullets because later we noticed that the bullets were the problem and we tried to solve that problem.

MR GRIEBENOW: You co-applicant, Mr Cishe, was he able to fire any shots with his firearm?

MR MSIZI: I was not guarding Mr Cishe whilst I'm shooting. He had his own gun and he was also trained. If we are shooting I must do my own job and someone else must do his own job as well.

MR GRIEBENOW: So you don't know if his firearm was working?

MR MSIZI: Three of them were not working, mine, Cishe's and Mongezi Takata's. The one that was working was Jabu's and only a few bullets and it's whereby he threw a handgrenade to the police because of the problem that we were encountering.

MR GRIEBENOW: Do you know how many police officers were at these two vehicles when you shot at them?

MR MSIZI: I only saw four policemen. I don't know whether there were others but I only noticed four.

MR GRIEBENOW: Was there light enough for you to be able to see all the people who were standing around there?

MR MSIZI: Yes, there was a light. There was a light and I was also lighting at them whilst we were shooting at them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have a torch? What do you mean you were lighting at them?

MR MSIZI: No, I had no torch, they had torches, the policemen and I started with the one who had the torch. Unfortunately my AK didn't work.

MR GRIEBENOW: After you were taken into custody you mentioned to the arresting officers what your participation was in this incident, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: No, I didn't say anything, I couldn't.

MR GRIEBENOW: Why couldn't you?

MR GRIEBENOW: Because they were my enemies, so I was not working with them because if I was saying something it wouldn't be a right thing. The only thing I would have said to them was something not right.

MR GRIEBENOW: Is it your evidence that up to today when you came to testify, that you never told any police officer what your participation was in this incident?

MR MSIZI: Not even a single policeman I've told about my participation.

MR GRIEBENOW: You aware of the fact that in the court case against you there was a statement submitted which apparently was a statement that you made to the police?

MR MSIZI: The court was with the policemen. They were all working for the same regime. They were discussing things, saying things that were not right. As long as you are deeply - they were trying to involve you fully.

MR GRIEBENOW: Very well, Mr Msizi, I don't think you are answering the question. Do you deny that you made any statement to the police where you admitted your involvement?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I do deny that I made a statement. I even explained to the court about my confession statement, that I didn't make it. They were tricking me in their dirty tricks, for me to sign and yet you are signing for what you didn't say.

MR GRIEBENOW: So you confirm that you signed some statement?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I agreed in the court that I signed but

what I was signing is not what I said. There was also a policeman, Mr Makaleni. I still remember he stays in Utenhage. He was the translator. He said the opposite of what the investigator was saying and the court didn't take any note of that.

MR GRIEBENOW: Are you satisfied that the court found you guilty?

MR MSIZI: No, I'm not satisfied because that was not a court of law, it was there only for black people.

MR GRIEBENOW: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GRIEBENOW

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Griebenow. Mr van der Merwe, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Msizi, this court case where you were found guilty, are you satisfied that the facts or the charges to which you were found guilty were charges in which you were involved and that is why you apply for amnesty today?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And you answered to Mr Griebenow that you did make a statement to the police during the investigation of this matter, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: I didn't make a statement.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Very well, you said you signed a statement ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He said that he - he admitted that he signed a statement but the document that he signed, the contents of that statement didn't come from him. He was tricked into signing it, I think he mentioned.

MR VAN DER MERWE: As the Committee pleases, Mr Chairman. I apologise. Let me rephrase it.

You say that you signed a document but you did not tell the police anything that was in this document, is that correct?

MR NTONGA: Sorry, Mr Chairman. The applicant said that he was tricked into that making that document, singing and there was an interpreter, ...[indistinct] a policeman from Utenhage. Which means that he did say something and he ...[indistinct]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] the circumstances in which it was signed.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairman, this is where I'm heading to.

Mr Msizi, help us please. Tell us what happened with this document.

MR MSIZI: What happened is, I was taking from Louis le Grange in Port Elizabeth where I was in custody. They took me to Utenhage to the police station. When I arrived there the police that took me there remained outside.

We went inside the office to Izak du Plessis, who was a Major then and there was Constable Makaleni who was an interpreter. He was also a policeman and he was interpreting for Izak du Plessis.

I was asked questions about my assault, about the beatings that were done to me by the police of Port Elizabeth. They said that I had a right to lay charges. They told me to take off my clothes and they saw the marks on my body and they wrote down everything.

I was never asked why I arrested, why I was there. I was never asked such questions. They asked me questions about my assault and saying that they would take steps concerning that assault.

When I was signing it became clear that I signed a confession statement that I didn't make. When we were at the Supreme Court the interpreter that was interpreting there, Constable Makaleni said that in court I went there to report about my assault.

The fact that why I was arrested, I didn't say it there. They were surprised in court because Major du Plessis said he was reading my confession statement that he made me to sign and his interpreter said that I didn't say that but the court didn't take steps about that situation.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Msizi. So you say that the statement that Major du Plessis took from you has no facts that you told him, which you told him yourself?

MR LAX: Except insofar as it refers to his injuries.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: Except insofar as it refers to his injuries and how he acquired those.

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, the injuries in here is described as injuries that happened not due to the police. Everything is false in this statement.

MR LAX: Absolutely.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Msizi, you saw this document? I think your legal counsel did show you this document.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you now busy with the confession?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes, but I'll leave it at that. Excuse me, yes it is a confession, Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you going to submit it?

MR VAN DER MERWE: About vehicles thefts. But I'm not going to take it any further, I will leave it there.

ADV BOSMAN: I just want to know for record whether it is going in as an exhibit.

MR VAN DER MERWE: We can make it available. My learned colleague, Miss Patel is in possession of these documents but it's not going to take the matter any further. I don't think we have to burden the record. I am in the hands of the Committee. Mr Chairman, if you want us to hand it in it could be Exhibit A, ja.

CHAIRPERSON: If it's not going to take it any further we won't need it. I mean if you're going to use it in your argument or whatever then we'll need it.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I think at this stage maybe for safety's sake let's hand it in as Exhibit A. I will make the necessary arrangements that copies be made and given to the Committee in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Msizi, if we can return to your history as a member of the PAC. When did you complete school?

MR MSIZI: I don't remember when I completed school, I don't know.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Let me ask you in this manner. In 1984 when you joined the PAC, did you finish school or where you still in school?

MR MSIZI: I was not finished with school but when I joined PAC I'd already stopped going to school.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And if I understand you you say that you did not complete matric but you stopped schooling and you joined the PAC, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: How long were you done with school when you joined the PAC?

MR MSIZI: I stopped school when I was doing standard seven.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I mean the time period. You said you joined the PAC in '84, how long before then did you stop schooling?

MR MSIZI: When I joined the PAC in 1984 I was already not attending school. I don't remember when I stopped schooling.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I will accept it as such. Tell me, how old are you?

MR MSIZI: I was born in 1965 on the 27th of December.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So you will be 34 in December, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Right. The training which you received ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: 33.

MR VAN DER MERWE: 33, I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman, I was never good at maths.

The training which you received in 1990, was this the first training you underwent?

MR MSIZI: It was the first training that I underwent from the camps of APLA but we were training ourselves.

MR VAN DER MERWE: What do you mean by that?

MR MSIZI: What I mean is, I was training before joining APLA.

MR VAN DER MERWE: What was your training? What were you training before you joined APLA?

MR MSIZI: I was a boxer, I was training boxing.

MR VAN DER MERWE: With great respect, that has no relevance to any political activity, would you agree?

MR NTONGA: Mr Chairman, the question was very clear: "What were you training"?, and he was giving a reply to that. He was not ...[intervention]

MR LAX: With all due respect, Mr Ntonga, he was talking about his military training in APLA, he said: "I received other training before that where we were training ourselves". It's in that context that the answer was now that it was boxing. Maybe if you could explain to your client that if he would try and listen to the question and give the right answers we could all get finished here quicker.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Would you like me to repeat the question, Mr Msizi?

MR MSIZI: Yes, please repeat the question.

MR VAN DER MERWE: With pleasure. You said that your first official training with APLA was during 1990 but that you had other training beforehand, was that not military related?

MR MSIZI: No, it had no military effect.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you. So you only became militarily active after your training at Sterkspruit after joining APLA in 1990, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: That is correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Have you applied for amnesty for any other deeds during the struggle or is this your only application?

MR MSIZI: There are no other deeds that I did, I only did what I'm here for.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You did serve time in prison for motor vehicle theft during 1987, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: That is correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And if I look quickly, in April you were convicted in '87, in July and again in August, on three counts of motor vehicle theft, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: That is correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And these crimes of motor vehicle theft were not political, do you agree?

MR MSIZI: The incidents about stealing cars, I was just, I had no idea that I would be militarily trained at that time. I was just doing things for white people that were not right.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Could you elaborate on that for me please?

MR MSIZI: Because I could see in the townships that they were destroying people, they were killing people and I then thought what I should do to them because at that time the idea of joining APLA was not in my mind but I wanted to do something to them, whatever it was. So I was stealing cars so that they could be affected. When this person comes home the car would not be there.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Well let me take you back a little bit further in your crime career. In 1986 you were convicted of theft of cash, who did you steal that from?

MR MSIZI: At that time - I don't remember who I stole that money from. I don't remember.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So you can't even say to us whether it was a white person or a black person?

MR MSIZI: I don't remember. Those were the things that I did when I was still growing up, when I was still a child.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Ja, that was a year before you started stealing cars, so did you grow up in the year after you stealing cash till you became a motor vehicle thief?

MR MSIZI: Yes, that is correct because another years are not the same, they're different.

MR VAN DER MERWE: The people you stole these cars from, who were they?

MR MSIZI: I wouldn't know who they were because if you steal a car from a person you wouldn't go to that person and ask for a name.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So for all practical purposes you might have stolen these vehicles from some of your black friends?

MR MSIZI: No, I didn't steal these cars from black people.

MR VAN DER MERWE: How do you know, Sir?

MR MSIZI: Because I would wait for a white man to park a car and then I would take the car.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Would the Committee just bear with me for a moment.

Do you know the name of Victor Pama?

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that please?

MR VAN DER MERWE: V-I-C-T-O-R, and the surname

P-A-M-A.

MR MSIZI: Yes, I do know him.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Can you help us, who is this person?

MR MSIZI: Sabelo Pama. That was another name for him.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Let me help you. Was he the Secretary of Defence for APLA during the time that you operated in Port Elizabeth?

MR MSIZI: I don't know what he was but I knew that he was a member of APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know him to be one of the leaders in APLA?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And would they take notice of any APLA cadres that were killed in South Africa in skirmishes with the Security Forces? Let me rephrase that, was he inside the country?

MR MSIZI: I don't know where he was because I was not guarding him.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to be guarding somebody to know where he was, Mr Msizi. Do you know whether he was inside or outside the country?

MR MSIZI: Sometimes as a cadres who was working underground you would know that he, you would know that maybe a person is in Tanzania even though he is inside the country, or you would think that he is inside the country but you will find out that he's outside the country.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So you're answer is you don't know?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I don't know where he was.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Now if you gave us that answer first we would have a struggle. Do you know the person by the name of Ngezi, surname unknown? Did you know a person by the name of Nlungezi during this time of these operations?

MR MSIZI: No.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And did you know an Mr Edward Mdedechani?

MR MSIZI: No.

MR VAN DER MERWE: During your mission when you went out to shoot members of the South African Police, did they have to be of a specific race or were you going to shoot just any policeman?

MR MSIZI: We were shooting just any policeman. A police is a police and they're all doing the same job.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Ja, Mr Msizi, I will argue this at the end and the reason - let me first ask you, you did not like the police, you hated the police, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: It's not that I didn't like them but I didn't like their job.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Which policemen didn't you like? Which jobs that the policemen did didn't you like?

MR MSIZI: This is obvious because we grew up seeing what the police were doing. We grew up seeing that police were shooting people. Even the police that arrested me, they assaulted my father in front of me. My father has got a bullet in his body. He was shot by the police.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'll repeat the question again for your benefit, maybe you didn't hear it.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not an easy question to answer, Mr van der Merwe with respect, if you say which jobs of the police he didn't like, we might be here for days.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Let me rephrase the question, Mr Chairman. I beg your pardon.

Your problem with the police, was this on the fact that certain policemen were tasked to perform political duties? In other words they were tasked, as you would put it in your words, oppress the masses.

MR MSIZI: They were tasked to oppress the masses and they were also killing the people. They were doing whatever they wanted to do to the people.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Was this all the policemen that you ever came across or was this policemen or some of the sections of the police?

MR MSIZI: This was done by the police. Each and every police was doing whatever he wanted to do that was not right.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Msizi, I think if you want to be honest with this Commission you must admit that a lot of the police were committed to fighting just ordinary crime, even in the days when you were fighting the struggle. All of them weren't politically involved, or am I wrong?

MR MSIZI: Maybe if you would clarify your question that which crimes were they fighting against.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Common crime, like motor vehicle thefts, rape, robbery, murder, normal stuff which is not related to any political motive.

MR MSIZI: The police, even if they were tasked with maybe for example, if a certain group was tasked to look at rapes or such things but what they were doing what they were supposed to do. What they like was to assault people.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes, Mr Msizi. It's clear that you did not like the jobs the police did or any policemen, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: As I have said before that I didn't like the task of the police force.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I will argue at the end and I will tell you I will argue that your fight with the police was directly related to the fact that they curbed your crime spree and had nothing to do with politics. What do you have to say about that?

MR MSIZI: Will you please rephrase your question?

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'll do so with pleasure. I will argue at the end that your hatred for the police had nothing to do with any political motive but the fact that because of the police you had spent time in prison already and that you were in involved in all these crimes for personal gain and it had nothing to do with politics.

MR MSIZI: Firstly, it's not a crime to steal a car. You must know what crime is. To steal a car is not a crime.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Are you telling this Commission now that I can go out here and steal a car and then it won't be a crime?

MR NTONGA: Sorry, Mr Chairman. With due respect to the interpreter, the word used in Xhosa is totally different (Xhosa), that's violence.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Well maybe the interpreter can help us ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Instead of the word "violence" they used the word "crime"?

MR NTONGA: Yes. The applicant ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: In other words to steal a car is not violence.

MR NTONGA: Yes, that is what he's trying to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I think you can retract your question, I don't know if it's relevant now.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I will retract my question and just take it from there.

CHAIRPERSON: And I can tell you now you can't go out and steal a car, Mr van der Merwe.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Msizi, my interest is - what I'm saying is do you regard it as wrong to go and steal a car? What do you think about stealing a car? You've tried to express that, will you maybe clarify that for us?

MR MSIZI: What I'm thinking about stealing cars is to see that we would succeed in whatever we were supposed to do about a stolen car because if we did whatever we wanted to do with an unstolen car we wouldn't succeed.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Well let me ask you this. During 1987, what did you want to do with the stolen cars?

MR MSIZI: I've already explained about 1987, that I was just destroying all, I just wanted them to be affected. I just wanted to do something to them. Maybe a person would be angry, go to bed angry because his car is stolen.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Why did you want him to go to bed angry?

MR MSIZI: It's because of what they were doing. It's because of what whites were doing to black people. I've already explained before that I didn't think of joining or being militarily trained so I wanted to do something to them because they were also stealing cars and they would take by force black people's cars. The police would do that.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just come in here please, Mr van der Merwe.

Mr Msizi, those cars that you stole in 1987, what did you do with them?

MR MSIZI: We were just driving them in the township and then we would leave the car and we would go out and take another car and do the same.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you just abandon all of them?

MR MSIZI: Yes, because they would be found abandoned.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Would you abandon them because you knew the police would be starting to look for them after a while and that it might be dangerous to carry on driving a stolen car?

MR MSIZI: Yes, because we would be in danger if the police found these cars in our possession and that is why we would abandon them.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did you sell some of these cars or leave them to the "chop" shops where people could make money out of these cars?

MR MSIZI: No, we didn't sell any cars.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Now if we can turn to the murders of the three victims in this matter. Why did you apply for amnesty regarding these murders, Mr Msizi?

MR MSIZI: The reason why I made an amnesty application because of murdering these people is because we are under a new government now and there is this TRC and during the past regime there was no TRC. That is why I made this application form. Because this TRC was formulated so that we could come forward and make applications for what we did.

MR VAN DER MERWE: When did you steal the car that you used in this operation, can you remember, how long before the incident?

MR MSIZI: No, I don't remember.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You see according to page 24 of the record a vehicle was stolen on the 15th of November and the murders occurred on the 18th, was that the vehicle that you used for this operation?

MR MSIZI: I can't explain about these cars, about the dates, about which car was used during a certain operation so I can't say yes, this is this car.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Msizi, if I'm correct you only killed two policemen in your whole military career with APLA, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: That is correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So this incident must stand our it your mind.

MR MSIZI: Which incident?

MR VAN DER MERWE: The killing of the two policemen.

MR MSIZI: Yes, I do remember.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Right, no go back in your mind a bit and tell me how long before you shot at these policemen that night did you get hold of the vehicle which you used in this operation.

MR MSIZI: I can't remember when we got this car, I can't remember. Because I want you to be clear on this, stealing a car is not the same as killing someone.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Obviously not, but for this specific operation you had to get transport so I thought you might remember how long beforehand you obtained the transport. Was it on the same day?

MR MSIZI: Before an operation we have to obtain or get a car so that means we wouldn't get a car today and go for an operation the same day.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Correct. So you got this car a couple of days, or a day, two, three before the operation, would I be correct to say that, not he same day?

MR MSIZI: Yes, if you put it that way you would be correct because we wouldn't find a car that day and be on the operation that day. I'm not sure about how many days though.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Who was the driver of the vehicle?

MR MSIZI: In which operation are you talking about?

MR VAN DER MERWE: We are talking specifically about the operation where you murdered the two policemen.

MR MSIZI: I was the driver, as I've already said.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did you hide this vehicle anywhere specifically or where did you store the vehicle, from the time you stole it till the time that you used it in an operation?

MR MSIZI: This car - we would keep a car in a gap tap(?).

MR LAX: Sorry, just repeat the translation, I couldn't hear that. Your voice trailed off Miss Interpreter.

INTERPRETER: We would keep a car in a gap tap.

MR LAX: Sorry, what is a gap tap? If you could just explain for us.

MR MSIZI: In kwaZakhele location but I'm arrested now, I'm in jail so if you do have a chance to go down there you would see a lot of gap taps there.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Right, let me take it like this, describe to us what a gap tap is.

MR MSIZI: A gap tap, at the time of the oppressive government people did not have taps for water in their houses and there was a gap between the houses and there would be one tap and people would go there and fetch water in those taps. That is known as a gap tap.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So what you're telling us is this is a space between two houses that you could actually put a car in and cover it up and nobody will know that it's there?

MR MSIZI: I wouldn't say that nobody would notice a car but we would keep it there because people were not guarding cars.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Msizi, is it mere coincidence that all the vehicles that you stole were Cortinas?

MR MSIZI: No.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Why were they all cortinas?

MR MSIZI: They were not all Cortinas.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Okay, they were all Fords, let's do it like that.

MR MSIZI: They were not all Fords because the one we abandoned next to the power station was a Toyota. That was where the cartridges were found in our first operation, the one that was published in the newspaper. At the time of our arrest they didn't mention the car. They just mentioned any car instead of that car because they were unable to investigate, they only wanted to arrest you.

MR VAN DER MERWE: How did you steal this vehicles, with keys or how did you steal the vehicle, this Toyota that you used in the first operation?

MR MSIZI: We were using keys.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Where did you get the keys from?

MR MSIZI: There are a lot of keys. Even at home there are cars and there are keys. There are a lot of keys in the township.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes, but all the keys don't fit on all the cars. Where did you get keys that fitted the specific cars that you wanted to steal, cars belonging to white people?

MR MSIZI: We got them from the location.

MR VAN DER MERWE: From whom, Mr Msizi? It's an easy question, who gave you the keys?

MR MSIZI: We would try our means to get keys. You can ask for a key from a person in a polite way and that person would be unaware that we are going to steal a car and you would get that key. There were a lot of cars to the mechanics and we would find keys from those people.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Why I'm asking the question is, I think there must have been some people that were assisting you to steal cars and providing you with keys because I wouldn't give my keys to anyone who comes to me and asks me for a key for a car.

MR MSIZI: An old unused car, are you telling me that it is still a key for your car even though it is not used?

MR VAN DER MERWE: So you say nobody specifically provided you with keys?

MR MSIZI: We would find keys from ...[end of tape]

...[inaudible] asking for a key in order to steal a car, you would go to that person and ask politely for a key for an unused key(?) and you would say that your car key is broken so you can't open your car or you've locked your key inside and that person would give you his keys, the ones that he as not using.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Let's get closer to the incident. This Toyota, did you see the car being parked when you wanted to steal it?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I did.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Where was it parked?

MR MSIZI: In a parking area in town.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did you see the person who was driving it walk away from the vehicle?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I did.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did you try to steal any other vehicles that day or did you just try and steal this Toyota? Was this the only attempt to steal a vehicle on that day, this Toyota?

MR MSIZI: Yes, we stole that Toyota on that day because we wanted one car and if we found the car we would leave.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And who unlocked the car?

MR MSIZI: It was Mongezi.

MR VAN DER MERWE: How many keys did he have with him?

MR MSIZI: I can't remember how many keys.

MR VAN DER MERWE: One or more than one?

MR MSIZI: There were more than one. It was not only one key, there were more than one.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Right. When you followed this police vehicle, you were driving following this police vehicle, were you aware who the occupants of the vehicle was? Could you see their faces?

MR MSIZI: No, I couldn't see their faces. I didn't know who was in the car because I didn't know them. Even if I did notice who are there I wouldn't know whom they were, I just know that they were only police. I was just seeing a police.

MR VAN DER MERWE: This was a police van that you were following, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So from the back you couldn't see how many people were inside either? Following from behind you can't see how many people are in this van, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: We did notice how many people were there.

MR VAN DER MERWE: How did you see that?

MR MSIZI: The police vehicle has this back window where there is a door for if one is being taken inside and there inside there is another window where those who are seated in front be noticed.

If they are looking at their back to check if the people whom are supposed to be in the back are still there or anything that's supposed to be there is still there.

Or else if you want to get clarity, if you want to make sure you can go outside because we did come with a police van as well.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You wouldn't know if there were any passengers in the back of this van would you?

MR MSIZI: In the back of the vehicle we wouldn't know because if you are looking you are just looking straight on the front seat. If there is someone on the sides you wouldn't notice that person. But as far as I'm concerned we didn't notice anybody in the back of the van and that is why we were always following because we wanted to shoot them directly. Even if there was somebody in the back of the vehicle they wouldn't get hurt.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You wouldn't be able to see - or let me ask you this way. When you looked at the van through the back window, as you want us to believe, what did you see, who did you think was in the vehicle?

MR MSIZI: Policemen. The one who was driving and his colleagues. At the back of the van we didn't notice anything, we didn't see anything.

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, well what I want to know is what exactly did you see, not what your deductions were. What did you see when you looked at the vehicle?

MR MSIZI: I saw policemen.

MR VAN DER MERWE: How did you know they were policemen?

MR MSIZI: How come one can't know that they are not the police? Even you cannot be confused if the policeman is or not.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Msizi, it is a simple question, how did you know that the passenger in the front of the vehicle was a policeman?

MR MSIZI: You knew that it is a policeman because you can see and he's got the police cap on his head. You also knew that no-one else can drive the police vehicle who is not a police. Even you, if you are not a policeman you cannot drive that car.

MR VAN DER MERWE: We might have a look at a police van later and I want to see how we can see who sits in front in the driver's seat and in the passenger's seat but I'll leave it there.

Are you happy that the people in the police van were all dressed in uniform and had caps on?

MR MSIZI: The people who were in the car I saw them wearing police caps. I saw the driver wearing a police cap. I then realised or I then decided that they were all police.

MR VAN DER MERWE: What did these caps look like?

MR MSIZI: They are no police around here. If there was a police around here I would show you.

CHAIRPERSON: But was it the normal cap that policemen in uniform usually wear, not the peak cap like a baseball player?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Was it a hard flat top cap or what did the cap look like?

MR MSIZI: It is - those were the ones which look like the security people. They look like the caps that are being worn by the security people.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not like the caps that those policemen that are sitting over there are wearing?

MR MSIZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the one with the flat top?

MR MSIZI: No. ...[no English translation] the hard caps, flat. In front they have a nail image, something of that kind.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think it's the normal police cap with the round top and the badge in the front.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, maybe I can just ask, there is one member of the South African Police ...

It's not - Mr Msizi, if you can look at the cap that that member of the police is holding, it wasn't a cap like that?

MR MSIZI: It was hard, it was not like this one.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you very much.

MR MSIZI: There's the police wearing such a cap. The one who is nearer to the door about to enter.

LAUGHTER FROM AUDIENCE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think if you could just calm down please, let's just continue.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I think Mr Chairman, for the purposes of the Committee I can state that it is one of the official uniform policemen caps, the one with the flat top and the hard peak in the front, it can't fit into your pocket. Let me put it like that.

I want to put it to you Mr Msizi, that my instructions are that the policemen who are members of the riot unit did not wear caps like that but wore caps like the policeman just showed you in the front here. So you are lying when you say you saw who was in the front of this vehicle. And that will be proved by the video taken of these proceedings afterward, if the Committee deems it necessary. What is your answer to that?

MR MSIZI: Okay, right. I would like to ask one question to you if you can give me that opportunity.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Msizi, I said to you that what you are telling this Committee is not true, you did not see the policemen in the front, that is why you are describing the hats wrong. Now have you got any reaction thereto?

MR MSIZI: What I'm saying is yes, I did see them because I was there, you were not there.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Well it sounds to me that you weren't there because you saw the wrong cap, Mr Msizi. So what I'm trying to say to you is you simply made a deduction because the vehicle in front of you was moving there had to be policemen in it and you simply went about and ambushed this vehicle. That is what you did.

MR MSIZI: If I was not there why am I sentenced?

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr van der Merwe is putting to you is he is saying that you did not see a flat cap that day and that you are not correct in saying that you did. And he's putting it to you that you just saw a police van and then you just assumed, without seeing the people, that the people in that van must have been police. That's what he's putting to you. Now he wants to know what you say to what he is putting to you.

MR MSIZI: We didn't assume that there were police. I was them because we were following them from a distance, we were watching them.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You were following them from behind, is that right?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And the first time you saw this vehicle from the front was when - well, take me through it. When you eventually got to the vehicle and you decided this is the vehicle you're going to ambush, what did you do? How did you get in the front of the vehicle to be able to shoot at the vehicle or next to the side of the vehicle?

MR MSIZI: These policemen were at the stop sign standing there in Jolly Street facing Lohiso and indicating to their right-hand side to Koyana Street. We were coming through Koyana seeing them stopping at the stop sign and then we waited next to the curb and when they are turning so that we can shoot them. Instead of turning to the way they were indicating they just went up straight taking the left side and we followed them up until we met them and where we shot them in Mahoman Street.

MR VAN DER MERWE: What I want to know is how did you get to confront them, did you go around and wait for them to come to you? How did you get to the front where you could shoot them? You must understand Mr Msizi, none of the Committee members or myself were at the scene, we're asking you to help us to restructure so that we can understand how you did this.

MR MSIZI: Okay, I will try and explain. They went up Pondo Street. Following them, we were still behind them. They indicated to the right side to enter Bertram Street and we still followed. They went up Bertram Street, following still.

As they were driving up Bertram Street they were approaching a tavern known as Joe's Tavern. We turned to the right side in Matitibe Street and turned left in Makanda Street and we went down Makanda Street. We turned left again in Mahoman Street. We waited, we parked there because we knew that they were going to come the way we were in. That did exactly what we were thinking they were going to do, they came facing us. That is where we started shooting.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Who was in the car, who was outside the car, your car?

MR MSIZI: No-one was outside our vehicle, we were all inside the car. At first we were all inside the car when we started shooting. Afterwards when the vehicle of the police was driving to the fence of the school we got off the car to make it a point that we are killing them and then we left.

MR VAN DER MERWE: From which side of your car did the police vehicle approach, from the driver's side or from the passenger's side? Which side did the police vehicle approach, from the front or the back?

MR MSIZI: The police vehicle came from Bertram going to Mahoman.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I don't think you're understanding me, Mr Msizi. If your car was parked, did the police vehicle come from the side, did it come from the front, did it come from the back? Where did the police vehicle come from, if your car was parked and standing still waiting for them?

MR MSIZI: It came on the side.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Which side?

MR MSIZI: On the driver's side because the driver of the police vehicle, I was a driver, we were on the same side. I was also a driver in our car.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Right. Did he come from behind and was he going to drive past or did he come at a right-angle as he would drive into your vehicle or did he come from the front on the driver's side? You were parked in the street ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He said they were parked and the car came from the side, the right side so what I assume is they were here and the car was coming from their right to their left.

MR VAN DER MERWE: At a right-angle.

CHAIRPERSON: Probably it would have passed in front of them because they were waiting in the street expecting them to come past.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Msizi, you were parked and the police vehicle was going to drive straight past in front of you, going right past you, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: It was going to pass on our side, not in front of us.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'll leave it there. You were the driver, sitting at the driver's side, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Who was sitting in the font passenger's seat?

MR MSIZI: It was Jabu.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Behind you, behind the driver was your fellow applicant, Mr Cishe, is that right?

MR MSIZI: Behind me, because everyone has his own door, behind me was Cishe and Mongezi. I don't know which side was Cishe or Mongezi.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You've already told us that Cishe and Mongezi's weapons weren't working, is that right? ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't that the second operation? This is the first operation.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman.

Did all the weapons fire, were all the weapons firing on this first mission?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did you all of you fire from the car when the police approached?

MR MSIZI: We shot whilst we were in the car and then we got off the car, shot at them at a close range because we started shooting whilst we were still in the car. And the police vehicle lost control driving through the school fence and we got off the car, shoot them at a close range.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Who got out of the car to shoot at close range, all of you?

MR MSIZI: Yes, all of us.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did any of you approach the policemen that were shot?

CHAIRPERSON: They said they all got out of the car to go and shoot at close range so I assume they must have approached.

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, I mean approached in order to physically be able to touch them.

MR MSIZI: No, we just shot at them and we saw blood pouring out of the vehicle because there was a pool of blood. We were just passing that and then we went back to the car and drove off. Nobody opened their vehicle and touched them or anything like that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, it's my instructions that one of the policemen's wallet was stolen off his body, do you know anything about it?

MR MSIZI: No, I know nothing about that because I said we shot at them and we didn't open the vehicle, we got back to our car and drove off.

MR VAN DER MERWE: None of these police officers ever had a chance to fire at you, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: No-one shot back, had a chance to do that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did any of you remove any weapons from the two policemen?

MR MSIZI: As I've said we didn't open the police vehicle, we drove off. So that clearly simplifies or clarifies that we didn't open or touch anything.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I've heard you use the term Amabulu, what does that mean?

MR MSIZI: During the past regime Boers, Amabulu which means Boers, were calling us Kaffirs as blacks so we were also calling them Amabulu which means Boers.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Do you still refer to white people in those terms, Mr Msizi?

MR MSIZI: No, because they also don't call us the way they used to, although not all of them changed because some do still refer to us as Kaffirs so I'm just giving an advice to those who are still doing that to give it to an end.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Your personal belief, Mr Msizi, does this country belong to black people as well as white people or are you still of the opinion that Azania belongs to the black people only and that white people are only settlers here?

MR MSIZI: This land is for Africans. This country is for Africans, it's not for whites.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Have you made any attempts at all Mr Msizi, to approach the family of these policemen you murdered to express any regret or to try and apologise for your deeds of the past?

MR MSIZI: Which means it will be difficult for me to ask for an apology because we were in a struggle then. When someone apologises it is when that person did something that he hasn't given thought or recognisance, just did that thing. We were fighting, we knew what we were doing, we planned it.

As we were four, there was two of us in the front seat, Jabu and Mongezi were killed by the policemen. To show that their death - we came here to apologise, to make an application for the police that we killed. It surprises me that there are no police who made applications for the two cadres that they killed. That shows that to them the lives of the black people are not important to them.

MR VAN DER MERWE: This informer that was shot, you weren't aware of his identify until he was shot, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Yes, we were not aware. I became aware of who he was when I was arrested, when I heard who he was.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And you then found out that you actually did know him? Did you know him previously?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And you have previously talked to this informer, this Mr Masiza Ngebele Ngateni? I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: He's the person that gave evidence at the trial.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Ja, that's correct.

The informer in this matter, did you know him by name?

MR MSIZI: This informer I knew his nickname, I didn't know his name because when I was first told about him I couldn't recognise that name because I only knew his nickname, "last-born". Afterwards when they explained that it was Ntutuzeli Goyjana I realised that it was the person which I knew his nickname.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Do you know what these policemen were busy doing that night before you killed them?

MR MSIZI: No, I wouldn't know what they were doing but I knew that there was something bad that they were going to do.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Would it surprise you if I say to you that they had an informer in the car and they were investigating motor vehicle theft? Would you deny that that's the truth?

MR MSIZI: When a policeman is investigating something he does that because the government has appointed the police for that particular job. I don't know about the informer investigating.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So these policemen weren't busy oppressing anyone at that stage that night, Mr Msizi, they were simply doing their which was crime prevention when you killed them.

MR MSIZI: I dispute that because the informer had a balaclava and a police jacket on. If you hide your face what do you expect to do if you have a balaclava on?

MR VAN DER MERWE: The evidence of this person Elliot in the trial where you were convicted was that you did have financial gain from some of these vehicles that you stole, do you deny that?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I do deny that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Will the Committee just bear with me, Mr Chairman.

Mr Msizi, did you take some of the vehicles to this person Elliot's house to cover them up, to keep them after you've stolen the vehicles and before you could use them in operations?

MR MSIZI: No.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did you know about the fact that some of the vehicles that you were convicted for stealing was chopped up and transported away?

MR MSIZI: No, I didn't know that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You heard him give that evidence in our trial, didn't you?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I did hear him saying that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: If I may just take an instruction, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Just a last question, Mr Msizi. After this incident, the second incident that you described, when you had to attack on the four policemen where nobody was killed, did you plan any other operations?

MR MSIZI: No.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Are you sure?

MR MSIZI: Because I'm saying as we didn't go - we didn't stay long and then we were arrested because we always have plans to attack the police but we were arrested immediately afterwards.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So you're sure you didn't plan any other operations after this aborted attack on the policemen?

MR MSIZI: No, not at that present moment, we had no plans.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Right, would you care to explain to me why you found it necessary to steal another car after that attack?

MR MSIZI: After that attack we didn't steal any car.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes, you did Sir, you were convicted of that car, you stole in the 28th of December 1990 in Utenhage, and your attorney is assisting you there to show you were it is.

MR MSIZI: I didn't steal any car after that incident.

MR VAN DER MERWE: But you were convicted of the theft of this car, Mr Msizi, is that right?

MR MSIZI: Yes, it's like that. If I can try and explain this to you. You'll see a lot of things that are not valid. Everything that was said in the court is not true.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Ja, you also confirmed that you were convicted correctly and your attorney confirmed that you are applying for amnesty for the theft of all six motor vehicles, Sir. Do you have any reaction thereto?

MR MSIZI: What I can say about this theft of the cars, six of them, I've been convicted and sentenced which of those cars I don't know because I do mention the ones that I do know.

MR VAN DER MERWE: The fact of the matter is, Mr Msizi, just like everything else you are not telling this Commission the truth today, you are not sharing the truth with this Commission, because that car could only have been stolen for personal gains since you weren't planning any further operations. Do you have any reaction thereto?

MR MSIZI: Yes, there is something I would like to say about that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Proceed please.

MR MSIZI: Where did they find this car, did they find it from me?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Is that your reaction to this?

Is that all?

MR MSIZI: I didn't steal that car in Utenhage.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I have no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Patel, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: I do, thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Msizi, there's just a few points that I'd like you to clarify for me. On page 2nd of the application under Section 9, paragraph 4 you state that:

"On the second incident we were attacked by police at Zwide and we fought back."

Do you see that? Mr Msizi?

MR MSIZI: Yes, I do see that.

MS PATEL: Given your evidence today that the plan was for you to attack the police, would you car to comment on what you've said here? In other words, that you weren't defending yourself but that the plan was for you to attack.

MR MSIZI: Yes. We were there to attack the police.

MS PATEL: So what you've stated here is incorrect?

MR MSIZI: The one that says we were attacked by the police, it's not true. We were the ones who attacked the police.

Secondly, we spent a lot of time in jail. We are also from death row. A person who is in prison doesn't think exactly like a person who is outside.

CHAIRPERSON: This second attack when you attacked the police, did it turn out to be a fight, there was an exchange of gunfire from both sides?

MR MSIZI: Yes, they shot back. They shot back during the second incident.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Msizi, the policy that you abided by in terms of attacking the police, who had formulated that police and how were you informed of it?

MR MSIZI: I was informed by the unit commander, Jabu.

MS PATEL: And what exactly did he say to you when he explained it to you?

MR MSIZI: He gave us instructions to attack the police. Those were his instructions.

MS PATEL: Then just to go back to your training, you said that you were trained in the handling of various weapons, does that include explosives as well?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MS PATEL: So it would include the Chinese handgrenade that was used in the incident?

MR MSIZI: Yes, that is correct.

MS PATEL: Would you co-applicant also have been trained in that particular form of explosives?

MR MSIZI: Yes, he was also trained in that manner.

MS PATEL: Right. Just to go back to one last point that Mr van der Merwe has already touched on I believe and that's in regard to the evidence of Elliot. Do you say that you didn't know him at all?

MR MSIZI: I didn't know him at all. I didn't know him and he was bought by the police because what he was testifying about - if the TRC would give me a chance to say what he was giving evidence about, it would be very clear that he was bought by the police.

MS PATEL: Do you care to explain to us what you mean by that or why exactly you say that?

MR MSIZI: What I mean is, this Elliot says that I was with the cadres. I went to him in his house. We had AK47's with us. Again, this Elliot, a picture of him was taken in a field and he was asked in court and then he said it was himself and Sergeant Knox and he was asked what he was doing there and he then said that he went there to point out the bullets of the AK47 that were thrown there by Kwanele Msizi.

Again he said that he asked me when last I saw "last-born", the informer who was with the police. He then said he last saw him a day before, he said that. I then said to him: "We shot him together with the police and he's dead".

Again this person, the person whose car was stolen he said that he was from Bloemfontein and we stole his car, the one we used in our operation. He said that he was from Bloemfontein and his car was stolen at night. He also indicated a time but I don't remember the time. And this Elliot says that I arrived in his house during the day with this car and the AK47s. And the owner of the car said that his car was not stolen at that time, it was in Bloemfontein. He then argued with the owner of the car, that Elliot.

He then said that he was staying in le Grange, he was scared of going to the township ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think we needn't have to hear the whole of Elliot's evidence, Ms Patel, it's not very relevant here. I think we've got the message why Mr Msizi believes that he was, as he says, bought by the police but we needn't go into the whole detail of it.

MS PATEL: As it pleases you, Honourable Chairperson.

Can I just ask, Mr Kotjana's nickname, was it a common name, was it a name that people would generally have known him by?

MR MSIZI: Whose nickname?

MS PATEL: Mr Kotjana, the person who was killed, the informer. The person you say was the informer.

MR MSIZI: Okay. He was known by the name "last-born". A lot of people did not know his real name. I also knew him by his nickname.

MS PATEL: So it wouldn't have been unusual if Elliot had known this about him, it wouldn't have been an unusual thing. He would have known that he was called "last-born" and that is why he referred to him as such in his evidence at the trial?

MR MSIZI: Which name did Elliot use in court.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's clear from his answer that Elliot would have known him as "last-born", he was generally known as that.

MS PATEL: There's just one more aspect. Do you know whether Elliot was ever in prison more or less at the same time that you would have been in prison?

MR MSIZI: I didn't know Elliot at all and he insisted that he knew me, I was surprised. Even in court everybody was taken out and only this Elliot was left there. People were taken out of the court.

MS PATEL: Alright. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntonga, do you have any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NTONGA: Just one question.

You said to the Committee that your co-applicant was arrested in connection with a car and was granted bail of R1 500,00 which you paid. Can you tell you which car was he involved with when you paid for him?

MR MSIZI: Pakamile Cishe was convicted for a car theft in which an accident happened and he was arrested. His bail then - he was not granted any bail and then we tried to arrange a forced bail for him and it was

R1 500,00 and we did manage to get him out. ...[indistinct] also arrested about these policemen I was not even asked about this car that he was involved in, they just sentenced me. So I also want the TRC to be clear about that, about what was happening in that court room and to have an imagination of what was happening.

MR NTONGA: Do you know which car was involved in the arrest of Cishe?

MR MSIZI: They said it's a Ford Cortina.

MR NTONGA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's all.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTONGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Just to follow up on the - who arranged the bail for the co-applicant? You said "we", who are "we"?

MR MSIZI: That means we in our unit, myself, Jabu, Mongezi.

ADV BOSMAN: ...[inaudible] where did the money come from?

MR MSIZI: We arranged the money out of our own pockets, about R500,00 and we took it to his home because they were in need, they were in a shortage of some money. So his father went to the court and bailed him. We just gave him R500,00 to add to what he has.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did you get the money from?

MR MSIZI: We do have money in our homes as well. When I'm asking for money at home they would give me. Even now whilst I'm still in jail I ask for money and they do give it to me.

ADV BOSMAN: That money in particular, did it come from you relatives, your friends or where did it come from?

MR MSIZI: From relatives. Mine was from relatives, about them I don't know. I would just say it was their pocket money because they were taking it out of their own pockets.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: No, thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions to ask the witness.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

I just want to go back to the issue of the fact that you said you were attacked by the police in your first, in this form that forms the first part. This form was prepared with the assistance of your lawyer, is that correct?

MR MSIZI: Yes.

MR LAX: So that can't really be a mistake then?

MR MSIZI: Where exactly.

MR LAX: I beg your pardon?

MR MSIZI: Where exactly are you talking about the, which form are you talking about?

MR LAX: We're talking about the form prepared by your lawyer.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 2 of the record.

MR LAX: And the part where you say you were attacked by the police in the second incident. Now the question I put to you, just to refresh your memory, that isn't a mistake is it? It was prepared by your lawyer with your assistance and on your information and that's not a mistake, correct?

MR MSIZI: There is a mistake.

MR LAX: Where is the mistake?

MR MSIZI: The one that states that they were attacking us and then we fought back. That is a mistake and I tried to clarify it because I've said before if you are in jail you do make mistakes because there's a lot of things happening inside the prison and outside in the family.

MR LAX: I'm just checking one or two aspects, if you'll just bear with me a moment.

CHAIRPERSON: While Mr Lax is looking I just want to ask you something now, Mr Msizi. I'm reading from page 44 of the record. This is a statement, an addendum to your application and it described the second attack. I'm just going to read it to you and I want to ask whether what I read is correct or not. We're talking about the attack on the 26th of December. It says

"The unit ..."

That's you and your unit.

"... met two police vehicles, a Monza car and Mazda 626. The car was stopped and policemen armed with a sub-machine gun approached. The unit started shooting and a handgrenade was thrown at the cars."

Is that statement correct or incorrect?

MR MSIZI: It is correct.

MR LAX: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Msizi, the scrapyard you mentioned, I recall that you refer to as you returned to your base, this scrapyard, is that right?

MR MSIZI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: How did it come about that the scrapyard was your base?

MR MSIZI: This means Jabu and Mongezi were staying there and that's where we used to gather if we were planning any operation.

ADV BOSMAN: For how long had Jabu and his colleague been staying at this scrapyard, do you know?

MR MSIZI: No, I cannot remember. I cannot remember for how long they were staying there.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know why they chose the scrapyard as a base?

MR MSIZI: No, I won't know exactly but if I can imagine correctly it was the only safe place whereby we can keep our arms. It was a separate place, not inside the location but outside the outskirts of the location. Even if police were searching they wouldn't even consider to go to the scrapyard.

ADV BOSMAN: How long had you known Jabu before this incident?

MR MSIZI: I've known Jabu I can say for almost a year and a couple of weeks.

ADV BOSMAN: Had he been staying at the scrapyard when you got to know him?

MR MSIZI: I've noticed that he was staying in the scrapyard when we came back from the camps. Before we went there I didn't know where he was staying.

ADV BOSMAN: Then this person, "last-born", were you on good terms with him, were you sort of friendly with each other?

MR MSIZI: We were not friends but we were talking to each other.

ADV BOSMAN: Had he ever informed on you or people you know of?

MR MSIZI: I wouldn't know if he had informed on me or about the people that I know because he was doing his own mission at night.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntonga, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel?

MR NTONGA: None, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR NTONGA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Griebenow, any questions arising out of questions put by the panel?

MR NTONGA: No questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR GRIEBENOW

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Patel?

MS PATEL: No, thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Msizi, that brings your evidence to an end. I see now it's also quite late. We'll adjourn now for the rest of the day. You may stand down.

We'll proceed tomorrow at what time? Half past nine? Would half past nine be convenient? Mr Ntonga, half past nine? Thank you.

Sorry, we've now come to the end of today's sitting and we'll now adjourn until tomorrow in this hall and we'll start at half past nine in the morning with most likely the evidence of Mr Cishe, thank you. We'll adjourn now.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS