Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are we in a position to proceed now with your second application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. Chairperson, I'm ready to proceed but I would like to take direction from the Committee which matter will we start with, is the one Kirkwood or Grahamstown?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, you are leading evidence on behalf of - you are assisting your clients to lead evidence to assist the Committee, so I think you will have to give us an indication of how you want to conduct the proceedings. We are completely at your hands.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, the reason I'm asking is that there's the other one, they are involved, there are two, another one. The other one is only one, so should we take them all simultaneously, the two matters?

CHAIRPERSON: I think for purposes of convenience, you may start with a matter where the applicant is I think Mr Wanga, he is involved in a matter that does not involve Mr Dingane, then we proceed with the one in which they are jointly involved which is the Kirkwood matter if I remember well?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members. May Mr Wanga be sworn in, Mr Chairperson?

B S WANGA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, is it correct that you originally stay at 138 Stocker Street, New Brighton?

MR WANGA: Correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And is it also correct that you were born on the 9th March 1967?

MR WANGA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I also correct that you are currently in prison, serving 24 years imprisonment?

MR WANGA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, before we proceed any further regarding the matter that happened in Grahamstown in 1985, can you for the benefit of this Committee, tell the Committee which organisation do you belong?

MR WANGA: PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join PAC?

MR WANGA: It was early '80's, I think 1982.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How did you join PAC?

MR WANGA: The person who recruited me passed away, Sipho Mkumkulu. He is the one who recruited me to join the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The reason I'm asking you is that PAC at the time was banned, that's why I'm asking how did you join PAC?

MR WANGA: There were organisations that were under PAC like AZANU.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you repeat that answer?

MR WANGA: What I'm saying is that I joined PAC because there were organisations which were working with the PAC like AZANU, they were preaching the same politics about the land.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, Mr Wanga can you tell the Committee is there anything you know what - what connection do you have with the AZAPO or BCMA?

MR WANGA: As I've already said, that the reason that there was AZAPO, they were preaching the matter of the land and at the time the PAC was banned inside the country. They were preaching the same matter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you trying to tell this Committee that at the time of this incident in 1985 you were a member of AZAPO?

MR WANGA: I was not a member of AZAPO, I belonged to the PAC, we were doing PAC's job although the PAC was not inside the country.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, can you finally clarify this point, what connection did you have with AZAPO?

MR WANGA: As I've already said, what AZAPO was saying or what AZAPO was all about, was the struggle of the people's land and the Pan Africanist Congress was also concerned about that matter, that is why I'm saying that when I was clarifying this, I used AZAPO names in my form because the PAC have distanced itself about the TRC matters.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Mr Mbandazayo?

Mr Wanga, I still do not understand your responses to questions posed by your legal representatives. You have completed three different application forms. In respect of the two applications you completed, you stated that you were a member of BCM. What does that stand for?

MR WANGA: BCM? Black Convention Movement.

CHAIRPERSON: And how is it related to AZAPO?

MR WANGA: What BCM was doing was the same as what AZAPO was doing.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the third application you indicated that you were a member of the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania. Why did you have to state two different liberation movements and that is what your legal representative is trying to get from you, he needs you to explain that to the Committee because it is important for us to know why you sought to put two different liberation movements in respect of an application which deals with the same act which you purported to act on behalf of a particular organisation?

MR WANGA: I made a mistake, I knew that I made an application under the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying you made a mistake, what was the nature of the mistake you made when you put in two different liberation movements. We need to get that clarification, it is very important to us.

MR WANGA: I've already stated that the reason that I made the application and I wrote AZAPO, AZAPO was working together with the PAC because at the time that I was making the application the PAC had distanced itself from the TRC. Since the AZAPO was preaching or was talking the same language as the PAC so I decided to write the AZAPO name although I knew that I was a member of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say there the reason why you inserted the name of AZAPO in your application because the PAC was distancing itself from the TRC, what do you mean? Are you saying the PAC had advised it's members not to apply to the TRC, is that what you're saying and that's why you inserted AZAPO instead of the PAC?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get this information that the PAC had advised it's members not to apply to the TRC?

MR WANGA: When all this was happening we were in prison. No we had no connections with anybody when this process started.

CHAIRPERSON: But how did you know that the PAC had discouraged it's members from applying for amnesty to the TRC?

MR WANGA: Everything that was happening here in South Africa at that time, it was publicised. As a result if you were a person who was concerned or interested in such matters you would know what was required and what was not required.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware that the first application you made you didn't even put the name of AZAPO, you put BCM?

MR WANGA: Yes I know.

CHAIRPERSON: And the same thing happened a few months thereafter when you made your second application. Did someone tell you that the PAC had relented in it's stance against advising people to approach the TRC for applying for amnesty?

MR WANGA: As I've already said, the PAC said this in public that it was against the TRC. I've already indicated that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you then if you knew that the PAC was opposed to people applying for amnesty to the TRC, why did you then on the 20th September 1997 submit an application in which you stated that you were a member of the Pan Africanist Congress?

MR WANGA: The PAC at that time had already agreed for us to make application forms because the Operational Director had confirmed or stated that the members were allowed to make applications to the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you approached personally and given that directive by an official of the PAC?

MR WANGA: Leaders of PAC did visit us in St Albans but I don't remember when but they went there a lot of times.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they personally visit and advise you against applying for amnesty?

MR WANGA: Can you please repeat your question ma'am?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you personally visited by any member of the PAC and advised against applying for amnesty?

MR WANGA: Nobody came to me but the leaders of the PAC that came, they told us the reasons why they were now saying that we should make the applications to the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, you may proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I'm indebted to the Members of the Committee.

Mr Wanga, can you still remember the events of 1985 in Grahamstown, what took place in 1985 in Grahamstown?

Sorry Chairperson, in fact I was - I started with the wrong one, I started with the Kirkwood, I'm supposed to proceed with Kirkwood not Grahamstown so I was told that I started with Grahamstown.

Mr Wanga, can you tell the Committee about the events in Kirkwood on the 28th November 1988. Do you still remember that date?

MR WANGA: Yes I still remember that date.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee who gave you an instruction to go to Mr Claassens farm, if I'm not mistaken, in Kirkwood?

MR WANGA: Our leader gave us the instruction.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, we want the name of the person who gave you an order to go to that farm and the actual instruction he gave you and tell the Committee how many were you when you went there?

MR WANGA: It was myself together with a gentleman next to me and two others but one has passed away. The person who gave us that instruction was Jabu Mdunge who was our commander.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You have not yet told the Committee about the names, the names of the person involved, the person who died and the other one. You have not yet told the Committee.

MR WANGA: The gentleman next to me was Aaron Dingane and it was myself and Zalisele Memani and Dumele Mashuma and the deceased is Vuyisile Andries.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where are the other people who were involved in this matter with the exception of the one who passed away?

MR WANGA: They were released.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what was the nature of the instruction given by Mdunge, who was actually given the instructions? Gave the instruction to all of you as a group or he gave the instruction to an individual, to yourself and where did he give you this instruction?

MR WANGA: At the time we made a decision. There was a house in Vierplaas that we used to use. We would go and meet in that house when we were planning operations in the farms. He then met with Aaron Dingane and the rest of us but it took us some days before we met him. We used to go there three times to meet that place, three times to make sure that we were going to do as he gave us the instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't get that one. Did you used to meet three times a day or three times a week?

MR WANGA: At various times, different times, we had times that we used to meet because we're not all staying in Vierplaas but we used to meet in Vierplaas when we had meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether it was properly translated, just a few seconds ago you had said something about having met at this particular house about three times, now I didn't get whether it was three times a day or three times a week?

MR WANGA: I said we met three times before we went to this operation. I didn't say three times a day, I just said three times.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga can you tell the Committee about Mdunge, Jabu Mdunge, where was he from and who was he?

MR WANGA: We knew Jabu Mdunge as our commander. He was the one who was giving us instructions concerning the operation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know where he was coming from?

MR WANGA: Not exactly but we knew that he was a South African, he was also a member of the PAC but I don't know whether he was from Durban or Johannesburg.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now where is Jabu Mdunge now?

MR WANGA: I think he died. When we were arrested he was still alive but we heard that he died in 1990 or 1991.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now tell the Committee who gave Jabu Mdunge information about the farm as you indicated he was not around from here so definitely he did not know anything about the farm in Kirkwood?

MR WANGA: The deceased Vuyisile Andries, he was staying in Kirkwood and I also had friends in Kirkwood. We used to use Vuyisile to get information concerning the farms and we would visit Vuyisile Andries in order to inspect or to look at that place and then we'd go back to Jabu and give him a report. They would then take steps and visit Vuyisile Andries to see for himself. He would then agree or give us instructions to continue with the operation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what was the nature of the instruction given to you by Jabu Mdunge, what did he tell you to do in the farm, to go and do?

MR WANGA: As we all knew here in South Africa what kind of life the Black people were living here in South Africa, we didn't have weapons to fight against whites, our aim was to wage Black people's struggle.

ADV MOTATA: If I may Mr Mbandazayo, but I thought your legal representative said what did Jabu Mdunge tell you to do and you are answering that we all know in South Africa Blacks didn't have arms but you are not answering what your legal representative wants from you?

MR WANGA: The instructions he gave us was to take weapons from the Whites because the White people were the military zone. It is where we can get weapons by going to the Whites and taking the weapons from them. We would be able to defend or protect ourselves in the struggle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So what you are telling the Committee is that the instruction was that "go to the farm and come back with arms" - those were the instructions from Jabu Mdunge?

MR WANGA: Also the money, if we could find money we used to take it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, in your application form you were asked who gave you orders for this particular offence, you said orders from the Azanian People's Liberation Army?

CHAIRPERSON: On which page are you referring to Mr Mbandazayo because we have a series of Mr Wanga's applications before us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Chairperson, I was looking at Dingane's one, it was not Mr Wanga's. It seems as if it ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think if I may assist on page 47 he does refer to instructions having been given by Comrade Jabu Mdunge of Tembisa though I would want to know why he has not made such reference in respect of the two previous applications he had made?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, in fact it's what - if he can answer your question I would allow him to answer the Chairperson's question because that's what I was driving at, I was looking for this.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, you are aware that you have made three applications? Do you have copies thereof in front of you? Now in the application which you made, the first application which is dated the 29th May 1996, you did not indicate that you committed this offence as a result of an order which emanated from Comrade Jabu Mdunge nor did you state that in your second application which is on page 36. You however when you applied for the third time which application appears on page 43, only then indicated that the order came from Comrade Mdunge. We would want to know why you omitted to say that in your two other applications?

Are you now in a position to respond? You'd better respond through your mike so that your response can be repeated by our translator so that we can also get the benefit of your response?

MR WANGA: I am surprised to see this here now, I thought that I had written it here as it is in page 36. I'm not aware that I didn't feel or write in here.

CHAIRPERSON: Who completed the application, your first application? Whose handwriting is that, the one which is on page 33? Just check the handwriting.

MR WANGA: This is my handwriting.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how can you be surprised that you did not include information when you yourself completed the application?

MR WANGA: We would get the application forms from the prison warders so I didn't realise that there are things that I didn't write in here. That is why I explained it in page 36. I didn't know that in the other forms there's something that I didn't clarify or write.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you have to complete three different applications, was it because of the fact that you became aware that you omitted certain information?

MR WANGA: No I didn't notice that I made such a mistake, that I didn't complete the whole form, I was not aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: But are you aware that you in fact completed the whole form, you wrote "N/A" what did you mean when you said "N/A". On page 35 you were specifically asked whether the acts in respect of which amnesty is being sought was committed in the execution of an order of or on behalf of or with the approval of the organisation, institution, body, liberation movement and your response is "N/A" - not applicable. You responded to a question and your response indicated that it was not applicable. What do you mean when you say you did not know what you were doing?

MR WANGA: I cannot explain it in any other way except the way that I've already explained. I didn't realise that I didn't fully complete the application form.

CHAIRPERSON: And neither did you fully realise that you had not done so on the 13th December 1996 when you completed your second application?

MR WANGA: There were applications that we were assisted by the police in prison and there were applications that we filled after we have consulted with our leaders so I'm not sure about all this.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, you may proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

Now Mr Wanga, just on that point of going to this farm, Mr Claassens farm, who was the commander of your unit?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, would you please just concentrate on the questions being posed by your legal representative without seeking assistance from Mr Dingane?

MR WANGA: Can you please repeat your question?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who was the commander of your unit when you went to Mr Claassen's farm?

MR WANGA: It was Aaron Dingane.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How many were you?

MR WANGA: It was myself, Aaron, Memani, Mashula and Andries.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now were you always together in that unit?

MR WANGA: Yes, we were always together as a unit.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were they also members of the PAC?

MR WANGA: We're not able to tell them exactly what to do but ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No Mr Wanga, listen to the question. Were the other people who were in the same unit as yourself also members of the PAC?

MR WANGA: Yes they were members of the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. And also that they were also members of your unit?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And they were also aware of the activities of the unit?

MR WANGA: Yes, they were aware.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now when Jabu Mdunge gave you an order to go to this farm, what did he say that - did he say that you were doing this as members of the PAC or you were doing it as supporters of PAC or members of APLA?

MR WANGA: All such operations we were doing under APLA.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, I'll take it then that if you were doing it as members of APLA your group was composed of a unit and it's commander, as you indicated, was Aaron Dingane, what were the positions of the other members of the unit, within the unit itself?

MR WANGA: As I've already said he was the unit commander. There was a logistic officer and there were additional forces. The people were guiding us in the job and the people who were securing those who were doing the job because we wouldn't go there and do the same job, we wouldn't all take weapons. There were people who were supposed to secure us to look out for the enemy.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga ...[intervention]

ADV MOTATA: May I Mr Mbandazayo just come in here?

Mr Wanga, just assist us, we know for instance that there is Aaron Dingane who was the commander of your unit, your leader of your unit. Tell us in respective of Mashula, Memani, what positions they had or were they just foot soldiers. Don't tell use about vague things that there would be people who'd do x,y,z. We want to know about members of your unit.

MR WANGA: Mashula was a soldier.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, who was the - let me lead you then tell me, who was the political commissar of the unit?

MR WANGA: When we were going to the operation?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, you've already told the Committee you were always together as a unit, you gave the Committee the names of the unit, now I'm asking then who was the political commissar of that unit? You've already told the Committee that there was a commander Aaron Dingane, now who was the political commissar?

MR WANGA: Memani was assisting Aaron.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, just answer a simple question. Who was the political commissar in your unit? We don't want to know who was assisting Mr Dingane. At least your counsel has not put that question to you.

MR WANGA: It was Memani, a political commissar.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Chairperson. Who was the logistics officer of your unit?

MR WANGA: It was Mashula.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, at the time of this incident I take it that since you were with this unit you were aware of what was happening politically at the time and you are aware of the leaders of the PAC at the time you were involved in this. Will you be able to throw some light that since you were a unit which belonged to APLA did you know who was a commander of APLA at the time?

MR WANGA: It was Sabelo Palma and the commissar of APLA was Romero Daniels.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, who was the Director of Operations then?

MR WANGA: It was Letslape Mphalele.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And do you know who was the President of the PAC?

MR WANGA: At the time it was Clarence Makwetu and his deputy was Dugang Musaneki.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, start putting words in your mouth, we are talking about the dates when this incident happened which was 1988. Are you sure about what you are telling the Committee?

MR WANGA: Yes I am sure.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Mr Mbandazo? If I may? When was your unit established?

MR WANGA: Late in 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: And when it was established in late 1987, did it comprise the same members that you have just articulated in your evidence?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, let's go now to the farm. What happened when you arrived at the farm, how did you go to the farm, what mode of transport did you use? How were you armed?

MR WANGA: There was a car that we used, a Corolla, a white Corolla. We arrived there on a Saturday, Saturday morning and we knew that we were going to do an operation in the afternoon.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, how were you armed when you went there? How was yourself armed, Aaron, all the members of the unit, what weapons did you have with you, let me put it that way?

MR WANGA: We were armed with a shotgun, also had a pistol, Aaron was carrying a gun, he was leading us as a commander. We went in there, the three of us went in and then the others followed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, tell the Committee what happened?

MR WANGA: When we got there Mr John was inside the shop together with a friend, I don't know whether it was a person who was assisting him but when we used to go to that place, that person would be there with Mr John, but before we went inside to do the job or the operation a car, a Mazda, went out of that place. The driver was a woman, we thought that it was his wife. We then went inside the shop. We took him out of the shop and we took him inside the house. We wanted weapons and we took the weapons and also took some money.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee how did you take the weapons, did you point firearms, did you assault the people at the farm? What actually took place? All of us we were not there, you were the people who were there, we want to know - everybody wants the picture of what actually took place there.

MR WANGA: Mr Claassens was pointed with a gun together with his friend. His friend tried - he gave us some trouble. We found out that he was trained in karate. We then took him to the other side of the store and we put bags and some heavy stuff in that storeroom. We were then busy with Mr Claassens. We left two of us inside the shop. We took the owner of the house, he was pleading with us not to kill him. We told him that we were not going to kill him but if he was operating with what we were looking for things would be easy for him but if he was giving us problems we were going to take a decision in that place and at that time. Mr Claassens was willing to take us inside the house. We went inside the house and he told us about the weapons that he had, we found a 9 mm. He then led us to other rooms and then we found money. We went back to the shop after we were finished the job inside the house. The shop was in the same premises but not - it was next to the house. After that we had a problem with transport as I've already indicated that we saw a car going out of that house when we were going in because the car took us there, just dropped us there and then it left.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Then how did you leave the place and what did you manage to get in the place, how many firearms, how much money did you get and what else did you get?

MR WANGA: We took a box with money and it was locked at the time and we didn't have a key for that box. We also found a shotgun. We searched in that house thoroughly but we couldn't find any other weapons. He then opened a safe and we found out that he did not have any other weapons. We then decided to take the box of money and the shotgun with us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How did you leave the place, what mode of transport did you use?

MR WANGA: We didn't use a car to leave that place. We took a road that led us to a place where we can get a public transport because we couldn't use the same car that took us there, that was our way of operating.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you reach your destination?

MR WANGA: Which destination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: After the whole incident where were you going to go to?

MR WANGA: We went to Kirkwood and then from the township we'd use a public transport to come back to Port Elizabeth in Vierplaas where we would give a report to the unit commander and hand over what we found there. We would give all those to Jabu, our commander.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee what happened there after the incident. Did you manage to go to Jabu Mdunge and hand over everything?

MR WANGA: Yes it is obvious because everything that we would do, we would go back to him and report even if we found weapons we would take them back to Jabu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, are you saying that whenever you conducted an operation of this nature you would go back to Mr Mdunge to hand over whatever you would have taken in the process of your operation? Is that that should mean when you say it's obvious?

MR WANGA: Yes it is obvious because what we were doing we were doing according to his instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now I take it that when you arrived at his place you counted the money. How much was it?

MR WANGA: I don't remember the exact amount but I think it was between R7000 or R12000 but I don't remember clearly because this happened a long time ago.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did Jabu Mdunge give you any share in the amount?

MR WANGA: No, we knew that we were not the only ones who were doing such operations. We knew that in other places there are cadres who needed support and they wanted weapons and money and some of those cadres would sleep in places of operations so they would need money, food, but we didn't get anything for our own needs.

ADV MOTATA: Let's interrupt you. The question is simple and short. Did Mr Mdunge give you something out of the amount between R7000 and R12000, did he give you something out of that? That's what the question wants.

MR WANGA: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

Now Mr Wanga, I'm looking at your file and that before this incident it seems that you were not a stranger with being in conflict with the law and you have been out - in and out of prison, is that correct?

MR WANGA: I was still at school at that time when I was arrested concerning dagga, I was not in and out of prison. That was the first time that I was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I hate doing this but for the sake of completing what you've already obtained from your client. Mr Wanga you say that the amount of between R7000 to R12000 was given to Mr Mdunge. Did you give that money to Mr Mdunge as a unit that had conducted that operation? Were you all there when you presented the money to Mr Mdunge after the operation?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that Mr Mdunge did not give you anything from the proceeds, nothing was given to your unit? That's correct?

MR WANGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you know what happened to the money? Do you know how Mr Mdunge used the money?

MR WANGA: No we don't know how he used the money but as I've already said we knew that there were other units in other places that needed support, that needed food, so we were not aware or we didn't know whether he did or not but we knew there were people who were needing support.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. Thank you. I just wanted to get clarity on that issue Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I'm just finishing. How long were you arrested after this incident?

MR WANGA: This happened in 1988 on the 28th November. I think on the 9th January we were then arrested.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is January 1989?

MR WANGA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And were you granted bail?

MR WANGA: No I was not granted bail.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, can you then tell the Committee the reason why should they grant you amnesty for this offence?

MR WANGA: It is because everything we did we did it because of the political situation here in South Africa under the oppression of the White people.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, that's all.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Mbandazayo.

Ms Patel, I see that it's almost time for us to break for lunch. Shall we take about forty minutes lunch and probably come back at - is that okay if we take thirty minutes lunch, maybe we should make enquiries from the people who are doing a very difficult job of being our translators, that will be in order for us to take thirty minutes?

INTERPRETER: Yes it's okay.

MS PATEL: Thank you for your indulgence. Well shall we take a thirty minutes adjournment for lunch?

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, is Mr Wanga still proceeding with his testimony?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thanks Chairperson, we have concluded our evidence in chief on the incident of Kirkwood.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga you are still under oath, may I remind you? Ms Patel, do you have any questions to pose to Mr Wanga?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Wanga, was Mr Dingane the commander of your unit from it's inception in 1987?

B S WANGA: (s.u.o.)

MS PATEL: And was he involved in all your operations that you undertook during the time from '87 to '88/'89?

MR WANGA: Yes.

MS PATEL: Okay and would all those operations have been authorised by Jabu Mdunge?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Would Mr Mdunge personally have authorised those operations in your presence?

MR WANGA: Yes.

MS PATEL: Well I find that rather curious because Mr Dingane at nowhere in his application does he mention that he was authorised by Mr Mdunge. Can you offer an explanation for this?

MR WANGA: All I know that we got the authority from Jabu Mdunge.

MS PATEL: Okay and you've also stated that Mr Dingane was present when you went and reported to Mr Mdunge after the completion of this operation and where the money was handed over to Mr Mdunge?

MR WANGA: Yes he was present.

MS PATEL: Besides you not receiving any money from that operation, did anybody else in your unit receive money from that operation?

MR WANGA: I do not know as to whether there was someone who got money out of that operation.

MS PATEL: But you operated together as the unit, how would you not know? You said that you were all together when you reported to Mr Mdunge and that the money was handed to him?

MR WANGA: I don't know if anybody was given money but all I know is that we would hand over whatever we had, money or something else, we would hand it over to Mr Mdunge, then there's nothing else I can say.

MS PATEL: Ms Patel I thought the applicant was quite explicit in his evidence in chief when I questioned him on this that none of them received anything from Mr Mdunge as a result of the operation conducted at Kirkwood?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Then if I can refer you to page 5 of the bundle, Mr Dingane's application, at 10 (d). He explains that:

"With the R7000's that was robbed we were able to fund our unit"

Now why does Mr Dingane say that the money was used to fund the unit and you say that the money was handed over to Mr Mdunge?

MR WANGA: All I knew was that the money was to be handed over to Jabu Mdunge, I don't know what he did with the money afterwards.

MS PATEL: Are you saying there's a possibility that it would have been handed over to Mr Dingane the commander of your unit without your knowing?

MR WANGA: I don't have knowledge of anyone who was given the money. All I know is that whenever we have - after completing each and every operation we would hand over the money to Jabu Mdune.

MS PATEL: Okay. You were convicted for various other offences, not so?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: In fact, according to the information at our disposal, the very day before this incident had - this operation was taken out, you were convicted for also housebreaking, theft matter also at a farm in the Kirkwood area in which a television and clothing was stolen, is that correct? You were sentenced to five years for that matter.

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Was this also carried out with Mr Dingane's approval?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay and how many of you were involved in that matter?

MR WANGA: Three of us.

MS PATEL: And who were these three persons?

MR WANGA: It was myself, Dingane and Vuyisile Andries.

MS PATEL: Okay and what did you do with the T.V. and clothing?

MR WANGA: Everything of value would be handed over to the unit commander, Jabu Mdunge.

MS PATEL: Okay, but you haven't applied for amnesty for this incident?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Well why not? The question is very simple, sir. Why not? Why haven't you applied for amnesty for this incident?

MR WANGA: I think there was a mistake, maybe it's among the forms that were not mentioned. I think I did mention it in the other forms, maybe it only appears in the other forms that were not mentioned here.

MS PATEL: No, I can assure you that this incident is not mentioned in your application forms. In fact you didn't even mention it in your evidence in chief? Can you explain or do you not have a response?

MR WANGA: I am applying for amnesty including all these incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is have you applied, have you completed an application form for those acts and if so, when because we have three applications before us and none of those applications has any bearing on the other acts that you have been questioned about.

MR WANGA: I'm not in a position to say why but all the applications that I have forwarded, all those applications are supposed to be here. It is a surprise to me to find out that there are incidents that are said not to be appearing in my application.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Wanga, are you suggesting that you submitted more than three application forms for amnesty other than the three we have here, there could be more applications we're having?

MR WANGA: No that is not what I'm trying to say.

ADV MOTATA: Then the question is why didn't you apply for amnesty for this incident you have just told us about the day before the Kirkwood farm because it also occurred in Kirkwood, why did you not apply for amnesty, I think that's what Ms Patel is looking for. Am I right Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: That is correct.

MR WANGA: I think that is my mistake if I did not mention that, if I did not ask for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you assisted in completing any of the applications that you submitted to the TRC, were you assisted by anyone at any stage in completing those apart from the one that you already testified that you completed on your own?

MR WANGA: There's nothing else, there was no one helping.

CHAIRPERSON: Who typed the application that appears on page 36?

MR WANGA: These are the applications that are submitted.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you see the application I'm referring to on page 36 and is that your signature that appears on page 41?

MR WANGA: Yes that is my signature.

MS PATEL: Who completed that application for you, it's obviously typed, did you type it yourself?

MR WANGA: We did not have any typing facility. Maybe it was typed somewhere else.

CHAIRPERSON: Who assisted you, how did you sign it, don't you know who assisted you, who came in with a typed application form which was signed? You don't recall?

MR WANGA: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Who assisted you in completing the application that appears on page 43?

MR WANGA: Our leaders assisted me.

CHAIRPERSON: Your leaders where, which leaders are you referring to?

MR WANGA: It was Mr Ntonga. Among the first people who came to visit us was Mr Ntonga.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is he a member of the PAC?

MR WANGA: Yes he is.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and you explained to him the acts in respect of which amnesty was being sought?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What standard have you passed Mr Wanga?

MR WANGA: I went up to Standard 9.

CHAIRPERSON: Standard 9. You were able to see that in respect of your last application the acts that were identified were robbery, possession of firearms and escape and the dates that were given in respect of those acts were the 28th November 1988 and the 15th October 1989 respectively and the places identified in your application was Kirkwood near Port Elizabeth? You saw that?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't question why they had omitted to include the other acts in respect of which you also wanted amnesty for?

MR WANGA: I did not notice.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson and Honourable members of the Committee, just for the record just on this aspect of Mr Ntonga, I want to clarify the one Mr Ntonga assisted him on is the one which is typed, I happened ascertaining from East London, Tanzani and he was assisted to commissioned him by Mr Holo who is also an attorney so that's the one he was assisted in, it's the one which has died. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, we are aware of that, thank you very much. Ms Patel you may proceed with your cross-examination.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Wanga, are there any other incidents that you feel have been omitted from your application?

MR WANGA: No.

MS PATEL: No, alright. Well let me take you to your conviction for the incident that occurred in Kirkwood as well on the 12th December in 1989. It's again a robbery on a farm in which you were convicted for housebreaking with the intention to rob and robbery plus possession of a firearm plus rape?

MR WANGA: There was nothing like that, I know about housebreaking but there was no rape, we are not the type of people who would be involved in such acts.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just interpose again so that your rights may be protected as an applicant under our Act for Amnesty? It was never your intention to seek amnesty for housebreaking, for the incident that Ms Patel has referred to, this is more an incident which you say you thought was included in your amnesty application but alas, it has not been included and you are not aware of that. This is not one of those incidents? I'm simply making enquiries in order to try and protect your rights.

MR WANGA: All of the acts that I've been involved in I'm applying amnesty for all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you also ...[indistinct] under the belief that you had applied for amnesty in respect of the rape incident that Ms Patel is referring to?

MR WANGA: There was no rape incident though that is mentioned by the investigators in the court but I couldn't even respond to those allegations because I know very well that we were not involved in such things, I couldn't respond to that in court.

CHAIRPERSON: You've not been convicted for rape?

MR WANGA: That was mentioned and I told them that was not part of my job, that was not part of our operations so I couldn't respond to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Please just listen to my simple question. Have you been convicted for rape, yes or no?

MR WANGA: We only heard that in court. We did not do anything of that nature.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, are you serving any sentence for rape because if you are and you have not applied for amnesty then you are not obliged to respond to Ms Patel's question. Have you been convicted for rape? If you have, you do not have to respond to Ms Patel's question because you have not applied for amnesty. Ms Patel, I think you may proceed to another aspect of your cross-examination.

MS PATEL: If I may can I just - has the applicant said that he is not applying for any other offence related to the incident that I have raised or is it just the aspect of rape?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is quite clear that the applicant does not wish to respond to whether he has been convicted or not for rape and from what he has previously said it is quite clear that rape is not one of the incidents, that he is mistaken, he thought he had applied for.

MS PATEL: Do you deny then that you were convicted with housebreaking with intent to rob and robbery for an incident also at Kirkwood on the 5th December 1989. Do you deny that?

MR WANGA: No I do not deny that.

MS PATEL: Is it an incident for which you omitted to apply for amnesty or not?

MR WANGA: Yes, this is the incident that does not feature in my application.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean when you say doesn't feature in your application, was it your intention to apply for amnesty in respect of that incident?

MR WANGA: All the things that I've done I have applied for amnesty for all the things that I've done.

CHAIRPERSON: We would appreciate Mr Wanga if you could keep your responses short and to the point, we really do not have the time unfortunately as a Committee, we have a very short lifespan so if you are asked a question please try and keep your responses to what you've been asked for. Is this an incident which you wanted to apply for amnesty and you omitted mistakenly to do so?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Is this also an incident that Mr Dingane had authorised?

MR WANGA: He was already in prison at the time and I escaped.

MS PATEL: So who authorised this incident?

MR WANGA: It was Jabu who was present at the time, Jabu Mdunge.

MS PATEL: And what was his instructions to you?

MR WANGA: Our job was to go and get arms and money to all the places he used to send us.

MS PATEL: So did he choose this specific target, Mr Mdunge, did he choose this specific target?

MR WANGA: We've been there before and Vuyisile Andries was among the people that I used to work with us, he was residing at Kirkwood. We wouldn't go to a place that we didn't know.

MS PATEL: So who was all involved in this operation with you that took place in December of '89?

MR WANGA: It was myself, Andries, Nimrod.

MS PATEL: And who else?

MR WANGA: Only three of us.

MS PATEL: And who was all convicted for it, were you the only person convicted for this offence?

MR WANGA: I was the only one who was convicted, who was caught.

MS PATEL: And do you deny that anybody was raped during that time?

MR WANGA: There was no rape incident there in our job. We only heard about that in court, they said that happened in that house. I told them in court that I won't respond because that did not take place but they insisted that someone was raped.

ADV MOTATA: If I may just interpose here? Mr Wanga are you aware that the harshest sentence for that incident was the rape one because the others you merely got five years, nine months and ten years for rape and you didn't want to respond to that in court? Would I be right?

MR WANGA: I was already serving a sentence, I couldn't consider that sentence because I couldn't respond to that, I told them that I'm not going to respond to such allegations because I did not do that, they can do whatever they like, I was just not prepared to respond to those allegations and I am sure that nothing like that took place in that scene.

ADV MOTATA: Say Mr Wanga we were to decide - let's take it hypothetically that we would decide to give you amnesty. In your own words you say we must ignore the rape one because you are convicted for that one, that we mustn't touch it because it never happened and you were not interested even if it was mentioned in court?

MR WANGA: That is what I told them in court that during our operation that did not happen but just because they wanted to oppress us or suppress us because the investigator who was responsible for that told me that if I do not bring the other people or release the other people's names who were there with me he was going to make sure that I will not escape conviction, he was going to try by all means to incriminate me.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Ms Patel, you may proceed.

MS PATEL: And to whom did you hand the stuff that you had stolen from that incident?

MR WANGA: Everything we had we would hand it over to the overall commander, Jabu Mdunge. I've been stressing out on that point.

MS PATEL: And given that Mr Dingane was in prison at the time, who was your immediate commander at that stage?

MR WANGA: It was Nimrod who was with me, the one who was never arrested for the incident.

MS PATEL: Was Nimrod a part of your unit from the time that it was established?

MR WANGA: Nimrod was still new in the unit.

MS PATEL: And yet he was made the commander even though he was new in the unit after Mr Dingane was imprisoned?

MR WANGA: We knew that he some experience, he was used to be involved in some operations. Even in Queenstown he's been there but we did not know anything about him but the only person who knew about his presence was Jabu Mdunge, he had more knowledge, he had experience about such operations.

MS PATEL: Were you ever trained Mr Wanga?

MR WANGA: Yes but not that much, not much, not as extensive.

MS PATEL: Where were you trained and when?

MR WANGA: I can't remember, maybe the year was '86 or '87 but it was early in the year.

MS PATEL: And by whom?

MR WANGA: We used to call him Madad the instructor, his codename was Madad.

MS PATEL: And what was your codename?

MR WANGA: They used to call me Bee.

MS PATEL: How many people were present where you were training?

MR WANGA: A number of people.

MS PATEL: How many people, give me an estimate if you can't remember exactly?

MR WANGA: About twenty of us.

MS PATEL: And where did this training take place?

MR WANGA: We were using Butterworth in the former Transkei.

MS PATEL: Okay, was Mr Dingane with you on this training?

MR WANGA: We only met Mr Dingane in the house that we use as our meeting place in our struggle, meetings concerning our organisation.

MS PATEL: When?

MR WANGA: That was late 1987.

MS PATEL: Are you saying late 1987? But in your evidence in chief you had stated that your unit had started early in 1987 and that Mr Dingane was in fact the commander of your unit from that time? Would you care to explain? Sorry could you repeat the translation please?

INTERPRETER: No response yet.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry, was there a response?

MR WANGA: What I said about him in 1987, I said the unit was formed in 1987 and training took place early '86 and '87, I didn't say anything like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, I think in his evidence in chief he did say the unit came into existence late '87.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry Honourable Chairperson, if you could just grant me moment to double check my notes?

CHAIRPERSON: With pleasure Ms Patel.

ADV MOTATA: The ...[inaudible] in 1987, that's when the unit was started.

MS PATEL: I'll leave it at that thanks.

What type of training did you receive?

MR WANGA: We were trained to handle firearms and how to face a target and ...[indistinct] and how to handle a firearm and how to dismantle a firearm.

MS PATEL: And how long did this training last?

MR WANGA: About three to four months.

MS PATEL: So then you would have received at least a minimum of political training as well, not so, in terms of the aims and the objectives of the organisation policies?

MR WANGA: Yes we would grasp such things sometimes.

MS PATEL: Sorry, who did you say was the president of the organisation during 1988?

MR WANGA: It was Makwetu.

MS PATEL: I put it to you that that is incorrect and that if you had received the political training that you say you did at the very least you would have known that, that that is incorrect?

MR WANGA: ...[inaudible]

MS PATEL: For the record there's no response.

CHAIRPERSON: If you put it ...[intervention]

MR WANGA: It was Makwetu after the death of ...[indistinct] Motopeng.

CHAIRPERSON: I was going to say Ms Patel, if you say he's correct - he's incorrect, what then was the correct version and he's just corrected again himself by saying to us Mr Motopeng. In fact it was Mr Motopeng not in 1988, that is what Ms Patel is saying, that it was not Mr Makwetu who was the president of the PAC, it was Mr Motopeng.

MS PATEL: Just a few more final points.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you want to traverse on the issue of the Deputy President of the Organisation? He's also referred to Advocate Musaneke, as having been the Deputy President of the organisation then?

MS PATEL: Where did you get that information from regarding the leadership of the PAC at the time because it is incorrect?

MR WANGA: The person who was responsible for our political orientation told us so.

MS PATEL: And who would this person have been?

MR WANGA: The person who was educating us politically was ...[indistinct] Dunga who was our overall commander.

MS PATEL: Surely he wouldn't have given you the incorrect information to something as basic as who was in charge?

MR WANGA: What do you want to say because I'm telling you maybe you know someone else, who was it?

ADV MOTATA: Mr Wanga, are you conscious that in 1988 the Pan Africanist Congress was banned?

MR WANGA: All the organisations were banned.

ADV MOTATA: And Mr Musaneke was Advocate in South Africa, not outside the country, are you conscious of that as well?

MR WANGA: Yes I know that.

ADV MOTATA: That it is a fact known by everybody that he was not even Deputy to Motopeng who was the President of the PAC then, we are conscious of that, isn't that so? That's general knowledge that everybody knows. Actually if you are a Pan Africanist Congress member you would know that basic information?

MR WANGA: I did not say he was Motopeng's deputy but I mentioned Motopeng, I just said Dugang Musaneke was Makwetu's deputy, I did not say he was Motopeng's deputy but I said he was Makwetu's deputy. I said there was first Motopeng and the second one was Makwetu and his deputy was Musaneke.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not what you say in your evidence in chief Mr Wanga, please don't waste our time. In your evidence in chief when you were questioned about the leadership of the PAC you were quite firm in your response that Mr Makwetu was in 1988 the President of the PAC and that Advocate Musaneke was his deputy, that was your evidence in chief?

MR WANGA: Maybe I made a mistake about the years but Mr Makwetu's deputy president was Mr Musaneke.

CHAIRPERSON: How long had you known Mr Mdunge before you went into training?

MR WANGA: I had known him for quite a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: And did your knowledge include his political activism?

MR WANGA: No I didn't know him that much, his political activism but I knew that he was in the forefront of the organisation as a leader.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you know him to be in the forefront of the leader and of which organisation?

MR WANGA: I have known him from the PAC and the person who introduced me to him is a person who recruited me to the PAC, that is the late Sipong Kukulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Who gave you the training, is it Mr Mdunge still in late - in 1986?

MR WANGA: I said the person who trained us was Mdake, our instructor, the person who was giving us training.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was Mr Mdunge then?

MR WANGA: Mr Mdunge, when we came here we got instructions as to where we were going to meet Mr Mdunge and we did meet him. There were certain places where we would meet him and he wasn't residing there but we would know when to meet him and where. We did not know exactly where he was residing at the time but we knew we would get instructions as to where and when to meet him.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did he tell you that Mr Makwetu and Advocate Musaneke were both president and deputy of the PAC in 1988, when did he ever tell you that?

MR WANGA: During the political educational programmes.

CHAIRPERSON: And where were those programmes, during your training? This is what I'm trying to ascertain. Was that during your training or was it when you were in your unit?

MR WANGA: We would do things together with the unit and Jabu Mdunge would be present. We were not at the training base when we were with Jabu Mdunge.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were told about the leadership, the top leadership of the PAC by Mr Mdunge late in 1987 because that's when your unit came into being?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Come again?

MR WANGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. You've mentioned the names of three other people besides Mr Dingane who were members of your unit. You've mentioned Memani, you've mentioned Mr Dingane, you've mentioned Dumele, Kwashula and you mentioned Vuyisile Andries, is that correct?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Is there nobody else besides that? I'm speaking specifically now of the incident that occurred on the 27th November 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that known as the Kirkwood incident?

MS PATEL: Ja, where the victim is Mr Claassen.

MR WANGA: There were two other members that I forgot to mention their names. That is Lulamele.

MS PATEL: And who else?

MR WANGA: And Mkolisi.

MS PATEL: Okay and did you always know them by these names?

MR WANGA: Yes we were using those names.

MS PATEL: Well that's unusual. Did you not use codenames in your unit? It's a standard practice with PAC units where codenames were used?

MR WANGA: Yes we were using codenames but those were the names.

MS PATEL: Did they say - did you always refer to each other by their first names, by each others first names and not the codenames?

MR WANGA: We were using codenames during our training and during the operations.

MS PATEL: No, I'm speaking specifically when you were in your unit?

MR WANGA: We were using codenames.

MS PATEL: Fine, give me the codenames please?

MR WANGA: Lulamele's codename was Triple X, Mkolisi was K, that's all.

MS PATEL: And the rest?

MR WANGA: Salisele was Triple B.

MS PATEL: And the rest?

MR WANGA: Dubele was Jonga, Aaron was Kapa.

MS PATEL: And who else? And Vuyisile?

MR WANGA: Vuyisile was Hamba.

MS PATEL: And your codename?

MR WANGA: My codename was Mr B.

MS PATEL: Are you sure that only money was taken, money and a firearm was taken from Mr Claassen, nothing else?

MR WANGA: We went there for money and firearms, there's nothing else that we took from that place.

MS PATEL: Well there was a radio that was also taken.

MR WANGA: We did not say that, I can't even remember seeing a radio there because we weren't there all of us and we had no radio.

MS PATEL: Well I put it to you that a radio was also taken during that incident? If I can refer for the purposes of the record it's 1986?

MR WANGA: I did not say that.

MS PATEL: You were saying that you took public transport after this incident. How far away is the nearest public transport from Mr Claassen's farm?

MR WANGA: It's quite a distance but I cannot estimate but it's quite far because we lived there and we went to Vuyisile Andries in the township, that is where we got public transport, it was a distance from the farm, a long distance.

MS PATEL: And can you recall what kind of weapon you'd taken from the farm, from Mr Claassens?

MR WANGA: We got a shotgun.

MS PATEL: A shotgun?

MR WANGA: Yes.

MS PATEL: And who carried the shotgun?

MR WANGA: It was in Memani's position.

MS PATEL: And how big is the shotgun?

MR WANGA: I think it was 9 or something.

MS PATEL: 9 or centimetres.

MR WANGA: A 9 mm pistol.

MS PATEL: Okay so it wasn't a shotgun it was a pistol, which is it?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the difference? Do you know the difference between a 9 mm pistol and a shotgun?

MR WANGA: It was a 9 mm pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you have said earlier on you found a shotgun and Ms Patel wanted to know what kind of a shotgun, then you said it was a 9 mm pistol, that's why I wanted to find out if your knew the difference between a shotgun and a pistol.

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So what kind of a shotgun did you find?

MR WANGA: It was black in colour.

MS PATEL: Is that all you're able to say about the weapon that you found, that it was black in colour?

MR WANGA: It was a black shotgun.

MS PATEL: I put it to you Mr Wanga that if you had received the kind of training that you say you did you would at the very least have been able to explain the distinction between the different types of weapons and you wouldn't have made the mistake between a shotgun and a pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to respond to that Mr Wanga?

MR WANGA: I don't know how to put this now because I've told you that it was a 9 mm pistol. I don't what is it that you want me to clarify or maybe you want me to turn the statement around?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga I must warn you again, I want you to confine your responses to questions posed to you. We are trying to gather information that will enable us to decide your application, I think it is in your best interest to try and provide that information. Ms Patel is doing her duty to put questions to you. If you are unable to respond to the question please give an indication to you that you are unable to respond further or to say anything to the contrary. We don't want you to be sarcastic. This is a very important and solemn process, we do not provide space for sarcasm. Proceed Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Just to take you back to the incident itself at Mr Claassen's farm, was Mr Dingane the only person who was armed before you went there?

MR WANGA: Even Mr Memani was armed.

MS PATEL: Were you one of the people who took Mr Claassen into the house?

MR WANGA: We were left with his friend who was in the shop and the others went inside the house with Mr Claassen.

MS PATEL: So you don't have any knowledge of what took place in the house?

MR WANGA: We knew when they went out of the house they told us when after they've been to the house.

MS PATEL: Okay and Mr Oelofse, that's the person who was assisting Mr Claassen or who happened to be in the shop at the time, what exactly was done to him?

MR WANGA: Mr Oelofse tried to resist but we overpowered him using the spade that we found inside the shop.

MS PATEL: A spade, you never mentioned a spade beforehand, can you please explain, elaborate on that?

MR WANGA: What is it that you want me to mention about the spade?

MS PATEL: What did you do with it?

MR WANGA: That is the weapon that we used to overpower Mr Oelofse in the shop because he was resisting, he gave us problems.

MS PATEL: How many of you were with Mr Oelofse at that time?

MR WANGA: Three or four of us but I cannot remember because we're very busy.

MS PATEL: Okay, according to the record of the trial it says that there were five of you were present with him at that time but you denied that.

MR WANGA: I cannot say exactly because there were children that we found in the shop and we put them together with Mr Oelofse. The children went there to buy, maybe one of them was counted as the fifth one.

MS PATEL: Now which children are these?

MR WANGA: I do not know them but those were people that we found in the shop as we were busy with our operation. They were inside, they were already inside the shop when they came in.

MS PATEL: Do you know how many children there were?

MR WANGA: Two of them.

MS PATEL: And they stayed in the shop whilst you were busy robbing Mr Claassen?

MR WANGA: We combined with Mr Oelofse and we locked them in the same place where Mr Oelofse was locked in.

MS PATEL: Did you cover them with bags of meal as well?

MR WANGA: No we did not cover them we just tied them lightly, we just tied their hands lightly and we left them.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel where is this leading us?

MS PATEL: It goes to the question of this witness's credibility Honourable Chairperson, to the extent that he adds on to simple questions that he knows he is not in a position to respond to because he knows that he is lying.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it leading us to absence of full disclosure?

MS PATEL: Absolutely Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I wish you could be a little faster at reaching that destination.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

You see Mr Wanga there is no mention at the trial of any other children being found with Mr Oelofse and if they were tied up or left in the room with Mr Oelofse they would have been found and you would certainly have been charged for that. I put it to you that you are lying Mr Wanga.

MR WANGA: After I had left them in the shop we don't know what happened, it might have been that the people who came in there did not find any children but we don't know after we left the place what actually happened but we left them in that condition therefore I cannot say that happened or that happened, I cannot say anything that took place after we had left the place.

MS PATEL: Not even Mr Claassen mentioned that there were other children present.

MR WANGA: I cannot respond to that whether he did mention or not.

MS PATEL: You were at the trial, you heard what Mr Claassen had said, what evidence was led?

MR WANGA: Are you talking about the incident that took place in Mr Claassen's house? I heard what she said.

MS PATEL: Sorry, if you would bear with me for a moment Honourable Chairperson? Just one final thing. You stated that your motivation was to protect the community within which you lived, is that correct?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: How did what you did achieve that objective?

MR WANGA: Today we are in the new South Africa, it is that was brought about by the contribution of the liberation struggle.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Wanga, the weaponry which you got from these farms did you use it in any fighting that brought about the present democracy, did you fight any white people, security police for instance, police with that weaponry?

MR WANGA: We would get them from the white people and we would use them against them.

ADV MOTATA: Just name one operation other than the dispossession where you used these arms against the enemy?

MR WANGA: We would take the arms and would hand them over to Jabu Mdunge and then Jabu Mdunge knew where he was taking the arms to. We would have our own arms at our respective places where we would work. After we had handed over the weapons to Mr Mdunge, we wouldn't be part of that afterwards. He is the one who knew where he was taking the arms to.

ADV MOTATA: What was the purpose of training you early 1987? What were you trained as? APLA members or just trained to handle firearms, you spoke of tactics, you spoke of dismantling firearms, what was the training aimed at, what were you going to become thereafter after you had been trained for those four months?

MR WANGA: We knew that the whites were declaring war, we knew that whites declared war against black people. Every time we were ready we were training, we were preparing ourselves to anything that would happen because most of the whites were on missions killing people. We were getting training so we can do the same thing as they were doing.

ADV MOTATA: That is PAC policy in other words that we train everybody to get ready but in the process you were to disarm farmers of their weaponry. Are we following you to say that?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: And that not being trained to be part of the cadres of the PAC namely the liberation army APLA, for instance you were not trained for that?

MR WANGA: We were trained for that purpose because we knew that some of us would be deployed outside but unfortunately that did not happen but we knew we were going because we told that that was not the only training, we would get another training, we would acquire other training outside the country.

MR WANGA: Because I want you to assist us, Mr Wanga, I've listened to you for half a day and all I could get from you was that you would rob these farmers, their weaponry and all that weaponry gave to Mdunge, even the money. You retained nothing, that's what I've been hearing the whole day, am I wrong or I did not listen to you attentively?

MR WANGA: As I'm saying, we were not getting anything, we were not expecting any compensation. We knew that we were contradicting in a way and pushing forward the black liberation. We were not expecting compensation.

ADV MOTATA: And you didn't ask Mdunge where you're taking these arms to, because he's in your party, you never asked. You just give it to him, even the money, you never asked because it would appear strange, let's be honest to you, that you never kept these arms. Let's ask you a simple question then. Who gave you the arms which Memani and Dingane had when you went to that farmer? Where did you get those guns from?

MR WANGA: We got those arms from Jabu Mdunge. He told us that we only need firearms because the same operations were being done in the whole South Africa. We knew that we were not the only cadres, APLA cadres and we didn't want to know more than what he was telling us because we knew that there were other cadres who were also in the same mission somewhere else and we wouldn't want to go beyond that we take whatever he was telling us.

ADV MOTATA: What was your unit called?

MR WANGA: Our unit was called Assault Unit.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, you must proceed, I'm sorry about that.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel. Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Just one question Chairperson that emanates from the answer given to my last enquiry. I would give you a background to this, Mr Wanga, in all fairness. We have listened to a number of PAC applications and people who were taking from other people, they used to call them repossession unit, do you follow that? They would have names but they would basically be repossessing and people who were in assault units would fight the struggle. Now I want to understand you, that because you were an assault unit how did you get entangled or were there specific orders that you must repossess in the process?

MR WANGA: It is exactly as I'm saying, it's because we were not doing anything for ourselves, we would get instructions from the people who was our leader. Now I see in the three applications that you say you were charged for armed robbery, possession of illegal ammunition and firearms, escape and what you say what sentence you got for that you said 24 years six months. Is that referring to the Johan Claassen, Kirkwood story, or does that include several other offences or which you committed?

MR WANGA: All of the offences that I was involved in, the escape, the sentence was six - eight months, six months, I cannot remember but all those years combined they make that number of years.

ADV MOTATA: Robbery, let's start, Kirkwood, what did you get, we are talking now of the ...[indistinct]

MR WANGA: The sentence was seven years.

ADV MOTATA: Escape nine months?

MR WANGA: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: And what was ammunition, possession of illegal arms and ammunition, what did you get?

MR WANGA: I think it was five years.

ADV MOTATA: So we are roughly in the region of fifteen, are you saying the others as well?

MR WANGA: And the one that I refused to respond to in court, the rape case, I was not even interested in the length of the sentence but I heard that when I was in prison, that my sentence was twenty four years and six months and I didn't know what was the sentence of this alleged rape because I even had a quarrel with the police who was in charge of that case.

ADV MOTATA: That you have just said to me the Claassens story for that incident you got nine years and you suddenly say you thought you were told you were doing twenty four years, that cannot be true. Then you said to me when I was asking you and we want please, honesty, we want to understand these things. We're not asking you anything for the fun of asking you anything otherwise I would keep quiet and we want you to be absolutely honest with us because your first answer you said the totality of the sentence in other words was twenty four years six months and you say the other one which you never agreed to which is the rape one, but you fought with the police when they told you eventually it's twenty four years six months. It cannot be? And I took you slowly patiently through what happened because once we leave the Claassens we say now you've got approximately 15 years. Was I not correct? Please we implore you because this is a serious process we don't ask questions like the chairperson has said for the fun of it, otherwise we'd do better matters if we had here for fun and be, you to assist us, we don't know anything. Like your counsel said earlier, none of us here knew what happened there and this we listened attentively. Let's take it then, I would tell you that for the rape was ten years and I asked you earlier, if we were to give you amnesty, we should forget the rape and not give you amnesty for rape, would that still be the position as you see it there right now?

MR WANGA: ....[inaudible]

ADV MOTATA: No, no, you said you are applying for amnesty for other things you haven't mentioned in your applications, do you recall saying that?

MR WANGA: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: Then I'm asking you and I asked you before that look and these are the words I used, let's take your hypothetical situation and say we grant you amnesty, should we grant you amnesty for rape as well? Those were my words and I asked you for the last time because you say you know nothing of rape and you refused to participate when rape was spoken of in court. Now I say you are giving me the last opportunity. Should we in considering your application forget about the rape and say you are not applying for amnesty for rape?

MR WANGA: That is bad because I cannot except that, because I did not accept that even in court though I was forced and I was sentenced for that. I cannot ask or apply for amnesty for such a matter because it's not part of the things that we were taught to do and it's not even something that I did.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to put to Mr Wanga.

ADV BOSMAN: Just a few, thank you Chairperson.

Mr Wanga, would it be correct to say that these operations were planned beforehand by the unit?

ADV MOTATA: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you know that you would get firearms and money at these various places? Who provided the information?

MR WANGA: I did clarify this, one of the members Vuyisile Andries who was a resident there and we would meet there and he would visit us and before going for an operation we would contact him and he would identify a target and describe them to us and we would go there and look for ourselves.

ADV BOSMAN: So he did the reconnaissance, Andries, did the reconnaissance for you?

MR WANGA: Yes, exactly.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you employed at this time when you conducted the operations, were you employed elsewhere? Did you do any work?

MR WANGA: No I was unemployed.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you subsist, where did you get money from for your day to day subsistence?

MR WANGA: I used to work but during these operations I was no longer working.

ADV BOSMAN: No but the question is if you were not working during the operations and all the money was handed to Jabu, how did you exist?

MR WANGA: There are many means of survival in the township, you even sit in front of the wall and sell some apples, you don't have to go and work or do something bad.

ADV BOSMAN: No, what I'm getting at is why if you did not work did Jabu not give you any money for food and for lodgings whatever? I find that strange that you didn't say to him look I've got no job, I go on these operations, I need money for food. This is what I find peculiar. Can you respond to that?

MR WANGA: At our meeting places with Jabu we would stay there for the whole day and we would get something to eat, we had our own places where we wished to stay and we would only go there to those places for a meeting. It was not difficult for us to get money, it was not a question for us when to get money or whom are we staying with that would determine whether we do it or not or get clothing or not.

ADV BOSMAN: And then if you had planned these operations properly what did you plan in regard to transport there and back?

MR WANGA: Transport would be used to get us quicker - to get us to our destination quicker and from that particular place, that particular destination we would use transport from that place to wherever.

ADV BOSMAN: But you did not have transport back, what were your plans, where would you get the transport? You told us that the farm was quite away from public transport, you did not have transport, you had done reconnaissance, so what were your plans for transport back?

MR WANGA: Just before the day of the operation we would use public transport to visit the place and we wouldn't go straight to the job but we would go to the contact person who was responsible for reconnaissance and the person who would take us there to reconnoitre the place and we come back using public transport, that on the day of the operation there would be special transport that would take us from wherever, to take us there to the place and the transport would go back and leave us there at the scene.

ADV BOSMAN: But what I don't understand, then I'll leave it, if you did not have transport to go back, you said that you were far away, quite a distance were your words from public transport, so did you initially plan to get public transport which was a distance away?

MR WANGA: We knew that from the scene, there would be no car that would be waiting for us in that situation, we knew that we would use other ways from that scene after completing the mission. We would go to our next destination, we would go there with transport, go to that place and come back with other means without using the same transport that we used as we were going there.

ADV BOSMAN: What is the risky part of the operation when you've got arms with you, you've got other articles with you, you've got stolen money with you, that is the risky part and you had no plans for particular transport, is that correct?

MR WANGA: We knew that anything that you would meet with on the way we were ready to attack if the condition conveyed us to do so. The person who was in our company, we knew that he knew that he knew that route so well and we knew that he will take a certain route, we were not just working just randomly because we were careful, we didn't want to take a risk.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, you've referred to Vuyisile Andries, that's the person who was doing the reconnaissance for your unit, is that so?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a farm worker for the Claassens?

MR WANGA: He was working for a building contractor that was working around in those farms in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: So was he a resident in the Kirkwood area?

MR WANGA: Yes he was.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he not providing information and not in fact reconnoitring operations? I'm getting more confused as you give your evidence because I thought he was merely providing you with information and not in fact during the reconnaissance?

MR WANGA: He was giving us information about the place that he had already reconnoitred and he would go there and inspect the place in his presence to confirm the details that he had told us and to avoid certain things that he had given us warning about and we would confirm that ourselves as he was giving us information.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would reconnoitre the place before the unit actually agreed whether the operation had to be conducted on a particular target that he had thought of, is that your evidence.

MR WANGA: What used to happen was this, he would come with us with a suggestion, told us about the place and the commander would go there and check the place and the commander would come back and tell us about the decisions that would be taken thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you said something contrary to what you are just saying now and normally in any operation of this nature, a person can't reconnoitre on his own unless permission has been given by the commander, otherwise what role would be the commander be playing in a unit if people were allowed to reconnoitre on their own without authorisation from the commander. Now that being so, can you explain to me what role exactly was planned by Dingane as the commander of the unit?

MR WANGA: Dingane was the main person who was giving us guidance, if he arrived at a place he would instruct us, tell each of us what to do and each and everyone of us knew the role within a very short space of time, we would know what to do.

CHAIRPERSON: You have founded your application on the basis that you were acting on the orders of Jabu Mdunge who was the overall commander of your unit. When were these orders given by Mdunge to your unit on which you acted upon?

MR WANGA: During our meeting times we would be there all of us as the unit. He would then issue such instructions, but we knew that there was a subordinate, his subordinate like Aaron. If we go to that particular operation and then his subordinate would be our leader during the operation. So that was said in our presence, he would mention that in our presence.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, please just try and understand my question, to your knowledge when did Mdunge first give you orders to conduct the operations that you subsequently conducted on the strength of those orders? Give us the year, I want to know the period in which orders were given by Mdunge for you to carry out these operations?

MR WANGA: First of all it was in 1988, it was the first time for us to go out and do such an operation, it was our first operation and we knew that he had a certain programme and we would hear of certain issues from our unit commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when his orders were given by Mdunge?

MR WANGA: We would all be there but we would be there when we knew that we would go out with the unit commander, we will then all be there.

CHAIRPERSON: What were the contents of the order, if you could be specific?

MR WANGA: As we were going out for operations, we knew what was required from us, what we were supposed to do.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't understand my question, I want to find out from you what the contents of Mdunge's order was to you as a unit? You were given these orders in 1988, you state. What were the contents of the orders given to you by Mr Mdunge?

MR WANGA: We used to go there to get weapons and money. You probably do not understand, I'm trying to make myself as simple as simplicity can be. Your application is founded on the basis that you were ordered by Mdunge to rob the farmers.

CHAIRPERSON: What I want to know is, what were the contents of the order, what exactly did Mdunge say to your unit because you say you, as Mr Wanga, was also there when the order was first given by Mdunge in 1988. What exactly did he say that gave you the view that you were now being ordered to go out and rob and do all the acts in respect of which you are now seeking amnesty?

MR WANGA: He said that we must know that whatever we were there to do, we're not doing it for our own benefit, we're doing it for the people of South Africa and when we finished with the operation, we would then meet with the unit commander and report back and he told us that whatever we found in the area, we would hand it over to him and give him a full report about what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you to indiscriminately go and rob whoever that you had identified as a target?

MR WANGA: We wouldn't go there by ourselves, we would meet with him and he would tell us about a target where we had to go for an operation, we wouldn't just go to a certain place or wouldn't go to him and say we wanted to rob a certain place. He would give us instruction to go to a particular target.

CHAIRPERSON: It that's your evidence then Mr Wanga, why were you told by Andries to rob the Claassen's farm, your evidence has not suggested in any way that this operation had the blessings of Mdunge, that Mdunge was the one who identified this target. Your evidence is based on the fact that it's Andries who identified the target, did the reconnaissance. How do you reconcile those two versions that you are putting to us?

MR WANGA: Maybe you are making a mistake because what we did, we did it under the instructions of Jabu Mdunge and we knew that there would be a contact person in that area. Andries wouldn't come to us and report to us, we would go to him following Jabu Mdunge's instructions. If it was necessary for us to go there before the operation, Jabu would give us permission to go there and he would be aware of what was going to happen..

CHAIRPERSON: So Jabu would approve of the operation before you went ahead to carry it out, that's your evidence?

MR WANGA: What I'm saying is ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just say yes or no. Just say yes or no, do I understand you correctly if you say any operation that you would want to carry out would be approved before you carried out by Jabu?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's try and keep to the point, we don't have time and these orders came into being in 1998 to your knowledge? When in 1988? Early 1988, mid 1988, late 1988?

MR WANGA: It was early in October or mid October.

CHAIRPERSON: Before October 1988 did your unit carry out any operations as a unit? Now that's before you got orders from Jabu Mdunge?

MR WANGA: I can't say what others were doing before, but what I know is the operation that I was involved in, in 1988, on the 28th November, it was our first operation together. I don't know before what they were doing in the places they were trained in.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mdunge - I'm sorry Mr Wanga, we take it that you are being honest with this Committee, you will recall what in your evidence in chief and throughout your evidence thereafter you have stated that your unit came into existence late 1987. Are you saying that as a unit you operated independently? Your evidence was that your unit came into existence in late 1987 and that you operated as a unit, it has never changed structurally because this is the question that I put to you during your evidence in chief? So how would you not know what your unit was doing? Are you saying that you had no discipline, each member was doing anything that it wanted to do without the blessing of both Mr Mdunge and your commander Mr Dingane, is that what you're saying?

MR WANGA: No we wouldn't do anything we wanted when we were involved in the armed struggle. We wouldn't do what was against the constitution of the cadres. Something like that wouldn't happen, you wouldn't do what you were not given instructions to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were there any operations that your unit were involved in prior to October 1988 since you came into existence late 1987? I'm waiting for your response?

MR WANGA: Our operation happened on the 28th November 1988. There were no other operations that we did together at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: And if that is so, how did you know how did you

know how you would be able to conduct any operation? Where would you get arms and such logistical requirements about the car that would take you to the place that had been targeted for this kind of operation? Can you give us details about that taking into account that you are saying this was your first operation?

MR WANGA: When we would meet, we would be educated about such matters, we would be told how to do certain things. There were guidelines that we were given on how to conduct such operations.

CHAIRPERSON: Now from late '87 to October 1988 what exactly did your operation do to advance the struggle which was being waged by your organisation which you say was the military ring of the PAC?

MR WANGA: We would have meetings all around Port Elizabeth in the places that we were involved in.

CHAIRPERSON: What meetings?

MR WANGA: We would tell people that we were members in such and such a manner but we would follow the constitution of the policy of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all your unit did from late '87 to October 1988 when it was formed with a view of being an assault unit, you never conducted any kind of operation to advance the broad military objectives of the armed wing of the PAC? You did nothing except to attend meetings advising people that you were PAC members?

MR WANGA: There were no other duties that we did except for the ...[indistinct] the time of the operation in November.

CHAIRPERSON: Really? How did you sustain yourself as a unit to do that kind - I suppose it involved extensive travelling? How did you sustain yourself as a unit from July, from late '87 to October 1988?

MR WANGA: We were able to sustain ourselves as a unit because if you are a person who was politicised and a person who was aware of what we do at a certain time, we would get instructions and we would wait for instructions about when to work because we were working for the people of this country.

We knew that we wouldn't do just anything because we were given orders or instructions to wait for an order for us to work. That didn't bother us that we waited or we did nothing because we knew about our programme.

CHAIRPERSON: You have not responded to my simple question of how you survived as a unit between that period, where did you get your sustenance. You've had not conducted a simple operation that would have in fact enabled you to sustain yourself as a unit. We have had countless applications where people were involved in all kinds of operations for the liberation movement and none has ever said they were able to exist in a vacuum. You've got to be able to get some kind of sustenance from somewhere. Where did you get yours from?

MR WANGA: We would go and visit each other and we would know that at certain times we were supposed to meet so and so and that was not difficult for us, we knew that on a certain day when a particular day would meet and we'd discuss things and then we would part after that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think I will leave that Mr Wanga, I still do not understand how your unit was able to sustain itself. Now you've mentioned when you were cross-examined that you had forgotten to mention two names of members of your unit and that's Lamela and Kolisi, do you recall saying that?

MR WANGA: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: How could you forget members of your unit, this was a very small unit, can you explain how you come prepared for these hearings and you forget just two names when you are a unit consisting of only five members?

MR WANGA: This happened a long time ago. I knew that I would appear before the Amnesty Committee a week before and we have separated with these people a long time ago, some of them had passed away.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and that would have been the reason for you to sit down and find out or inform yourself or remind yourself about such important details. I mean this is not something that you can easily forget. Did you know these people by their first names or by their codenames?

MR WANGA: As I've already said I knew their codenames, I also knew their first names because the day they were released in prison, their names were used, I remembered their names there and it is possible for me to forget them because where we are, the place that we are staying in right now is disturbing us in our minds.

CHAIRPERSON: But these are the people who were your comrades for almost a year, for more than a year, you worked together closely as a unit, as an assault unit of APLA?

Mr Mbandazayo, do you propose to call further witnesses in support of Mr Wanga's version at least of the application or you'd want to have Mr Dingane leading his evidence in chief and being questioned before you can call further witnesses. How do you propose to run your application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. Chairperson I have no intention, there's no a witness which has been provided for me to support their application after they have given evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: In which event then I think we have to proceed with the testimony of Mr Dingane who is in the same application.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we proceed Mr Mbandazayo, let me just make enquiries which maybe members of the translation services would like to have a break of about two minutes because I know it can be pretty hot in those booths or if they are okay and we can proceed?

INTERPRETER: We can proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED