CHAIRPERSON: In terms of the arrangement amongst yourselves, who would be next?
MR JANSEN: Applicant Ras, Mr Chairman. We are ready to proceed, it is just a question of seating arrangements again. If we can take a very quick adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will adjourn for a few minutes.
MR JANSEN: Yes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
MARTHINUS DAWID RAS: (Duly sworn, states).
EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN
Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Ras, you are currently 35 years old, correct?
MR RAS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR JANSEN: In the course of last year you were convicted in the Motherwell trial for the murder of the four deceased, and that is what this application is concerned with.
MR RAS: Correct.
MR JANSEN: Ten years of imprisonment were imposed on you?
MR RAS: Correct.
MR JANSEN: Did you testify during that trial?
MR RAS: No, I didn't.
MR JANSEN: The two warrant-officers of Vlakplaas who were involved in the matter with you, Mr Snyman and Mr Vermeulen, they were State witnesses in that case, correct?
MR RAS: Yes.
MR JANSEN: Were you approached by the Attorney-General before the trial regarding possible testimony in this case?
MR RAS: Yes, just after my arrest before the trial, I was approached by the investigating officers to testify in the case.
MR JANSEN: Were you offered Section 204 indemnity?
MR RAS: Yes.
MR JANSEN: Did you accept it?
MR RAS: No.
MR JANSEN: We can come back to that, but just to get a little bit of background. You matriculated in 1977 and you went to the police immediately afterwards?
MR RAS: Correct.
MR JANSEN: After your basic training you also did a counter-insurgency course?
MR RAS: Correct.
MR JANSEN: After you were a member of the uniform branch in the South African Police for about two years, then in July 1982, you were transferred to the Koevoet Unit in the then South West Africa?
MR RAS: Correct.
MR JANSEN: You were stationed at Koevoet until September 1984?
MR RAS: Correct.
MR JANSEN: Koevoet was part of the South African Security Police, is that correct?
MR RAS: Yes.
MR JANSEN: The nature of Koevoet activities, can be fairly described as military activities rather than ordinary police activities?
MR RAS: Correct.
MR JANSEN: To put it bluntly, Koevoet's purpose was to kill Swapo fighters or freedom fighters?
MR RAS: To arrest and to kill them, yes.
MR JANSEN: When you joined Koevoet you were 20 years old?
MR RAS: Correct.
MR JANSEN: Did Koevoet act strictly within the borders of the then South West Africa?
MR RAS: No, we also operated across the border into Angola.
MR JANSEN: Did this happen frequently that you went across the border?
MR RAS: Yes.
MR JANSEN: Was it a shock to the system for you to learn that the security police had been involved in cross-border operations?
MR RAS: No, it wasn't.
MR JANSEN: How did it come about that after September 1994 you were transferred to the so-called Vlakplaas, Unit C1 of the security headquarters?
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: And you were stationed there until Vlakplaas was disbanded. I think it was 1992 or 1993?
MR RAS: Yes, it was, if I remember correctly, until 1992.
MR JANSEN: When you were transferred to Vlakplaas, what rank did you have at the time?
MR RAS: I was a sergeant.
MR JANSEN: In 1989 during the Motherwell incident, what was your rank then?
MR RAS: I was a warrant-officer.
MR JANSEN: How did it come about that you ended up at Vlakplaas?
MR RAS: My father was a member of the security police and as a result of his connection with Jack Cronjé, he told me that he could help me to get a job at Vlakplaas under Jack Cronjé, which would mean that instead of working against Swapo we would work against the ANC/SACP Alliance members, and that we would act against them.
MR JANSEN: Your grandfather was also a member of the South African Police, is that correct?
MR RAS: Yes.
MR JANSEN: Your own interest lay in security police work?
MR RAS: Yes, that is where my father also did most of his career, he was also a member of the security police.
MR JANSEN: I am assuming that you also saw your work in the police as a career? In other words, it was something in which you would have started as a young man and the idea was that you would remain a policeman until the day of your retirement?
MR RAS: I would very much have liked to have done that.
MR JANSEN: You knew when you arrived at Unit C1, when you arrived, how did you know that you would be involved in the struggle against the ANC/PAC and other liberation organisations?
MR RAS: That is correct, Chairman.
MR JANSEN: What was your impression of the nature of those organisations and their struggle against the then South African government?
MR RAS: The struggle which the ANC waged against the South African government, was an intense battle, no rules applied, and I was convinced that I should fight it with everything in my power.
MR JANSEN: Now people in your position also received certain training and briefing sessions to inform you about the nature of the ANC, the nature of the struggle?
MR RAS: Yes.
MR JANSEN: When you arrived at Vlakplaas, did you immediately become involved in covert operations?
MR RAS: No, I didn't.
MR JANSEN: When did you become involved in covert operations?
MR RAS: Mr Chairman, if I remember correctly it was in 1986.
MR JANSEN: And how did that come about?
MR RAS: It was a case of ... (intervention).
MR JANSEN: Let me put it to you this way. Who was the commanding officer of Vlakplaas at that time?
MR RAS: It was Col De Kock.
MR JANSEN: Did he approach you and ask you to become part of a covert operation?
MR RAS: If I remember correctly, this happened after a certain incident in which I had been involved, with other members of the security branch, and which I will also apply for amnesty at a later stage and Col De Kock wrote on my SAP5 that I would be used for covert operations.
MR JANSEN: Would somebody in your situation regard it as part of his duties to become part of covert operations, if he was deemed fit to take part in such operations?
MR RAS: Yes.
MR JANSEN: Before you became directly involved in covert operations, you must have been aware of such covert operations?
MR RAS: That's correct.
MR JANSEN: Is it then correct to say that it was a logical progression in your career as security policeman?
MR RAS: No, I wouldn't say it was a logical step, I think it depended on the individual. For me it was a step forward, Mr Chairperson.
MR JANSEN: At the stage of the Motherwell incident, you had been involved in covert operations for more than three years. Is that correct?
MR RAS: Yes.
MR JANSEN: Could you explain to us how the line of command operated at Vlakplaas?
MR RAS: At Vlakplaas we worked primarily with former PAC and ANC members. There was a group leader and the size of the group could have varied between two and five, and this leader then reported directly to the commanding officer of C1 and he then reported to the head of C. My first commanding officer was Jack Cronjé. Eugene de Kock took over from him. The first head of C was Brig Schoon, after which Nick van Rensburg took over and then Krappies Engelbrecht.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Jansen, does this background appear from his application?
MR JANSEN: Mr Chairperson, parts of this background do appear in the application. I was trying to place the matter in better context by getting the applicant to explain the line of command. I don't think that is dealt with properly in the application.
ADV DE JAGER: Could you perhaps just link this with Motherwell so that we can get to this incident, because it seems to me that we are wasting time on matters that have already been confirmed in his application, and it is largely irrelevant.
MR JANSEN: Chairperson, I am acutely aware of the fact that I must keep my application as brief as possible. However, we are still constantly dealing with orders, when is an order an order and justification for orders.
INTERPRETER: The speaker is inaudible - his microphone is not on.
ADV DE JAGER: If it was a legal order it wasn't necessary for him to apply for amnesty.
MR JANSEN: I am aware of that. If I may continue?
Mr Ras, you must have realised that covert operations were very often illegal operations or involved illegal operations?
MR RAS: It was illegal in the sense that it was in contravention of legal principles, but it was in the national interest. We were fighting the ANC who did not play according to any rules and not within the law.
MR JANSEN: Were there any written rules for covert operations, when they were justified, et cetera?
MR RAS: No, there weren't.
MR JANSEN: Did anybody ever approach you and say to you when you started there look, you are now involved in covert operations and the rules are X, Y and Z?
MR RAS: No.
MR JANSEN: You would agree that although you were acting in a grey area with covert operations, there must have been certain clear lines that had to be drawn? You could for instance, not enrich yourself by means of covert operations or you could not engage in personal vendettas?
MR RAS: Chairperson, what we did, had to be in the national interest. Even if it wasn't strictly speaking according to law legal.
MR JANSEN: No, my question is, how were these rules conveyed to you or did you just pick them up as you went along?
MR RAS: I was part of a system.
CHAIRPERSON: You must now get to Motherwell.
MR JANSEN: Yes, I am with Motherwell. When you were approached - when did you for the first time become aware that you would be involved in this incident in December 1989, in Port Elizabeth?
MR RAS: Well, it was early one morning I went to head office. Col De Kock arrived there. He told me to walk along with me to the commanding officer, who was at that stage, Nick van Rensburg. He didn't tell me what it was about. He only told me that we would be needed in Port Elizabeth and they would explain more fully later on.
MR JANSEN: Did you go to Vlakplaas in terms of Mr De Kock's instructions?
MR RAS: That is correct, that is after we had been with Brig Van Rensburg.
MR JANSEN: And I think it is common cause that you, Mr Snyman and Mr Vermeulen were told at Vlakplaas to prepare for this operation in Port Elizabeth?
MR RAS: That is correct. If I recall correctly, I had already, was already waiting for Mr De Kock on the farm at that stage?
MR JANSEN: Can you recall what Mr De Kock told you about this operation?
MR RAS: All that I can remember is that he told me that there were some problems with members of the force who wanted to defect to the ANC and that there was money involved, which these people had stolen, and that they were threatening to defect to the ANC. There was also mention of the fact that people have been involved in the Goniwe incident.
MR JANSEN: The fact that you took part in this operation, was that purely as a result of the instructions given to you by Mr De Kock?
MR RAS: Correct.
MR JANSEN: Did you understood what he said to amount to an order?
MR RAS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen, can I just interrupt you there. I don't understand the statement the witness made a few minutes ago. Did you say that mention of money was made and that those people threatened to go over to the ANC?
MR RAS: Chairperson, if I remember correctly, what was mentioned to us, was that there were members in Port Elizabeth working for the security branch who were involved in money that had been stolen and that these people were threatening to co-operate with the ANC or that they would go over to the ANC. It wasn't discussed and explained to us in detail, but it was told to us that Mr Nieuwoudt would at a later stage give us more details about this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am just trying to distinguish between two possible versions which we have thus far had, about these people. The one version was that they had in fact already gone over to the ANC in the sense that they were already - they had already been recruited.
MR RAS: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Now what you are saying and now what I have just asked you again, seems to be that they threatened, at that stage they were still threatening to go over to the ANC?
MR RAS: Mr Chairperson ...
CHAIRPERSON: Do you see the difference between these two versions?
MR RAS: Yes, I realise the difference, yes. The question was put to me what did Mr De Kock tell me at that stage. What I can recall is that they were threatening to do so. When we came down to Port Elizabeth I drove with Mr Nieuwoudt and he described the matter in more detail to me, but that's not what Mr De Kock told me at the farm.
MR JANSEN: You are also aware of several other differences in your factual version of the operation as compared to the versions given by some of the other people involved in this matter?
MR RAS: That is correct, there are differences, and the only reason for these differences in my view, is as a result of the lapse of time.
MR JANSEN: The issuing of the Makorov pistols, what was the reason for that? Please tell the Committee.
MR RAS: Mr Chairperson, our main task in Port Elizabeth would be, we already knew that people from the technical division would be there and we had to assist them. They told us and I knew already at that stage that an explosive device would be used and then they told me should problems be experienced, we should assist these people with plan B and eliminate them.
MR JANSEN: You were also told that the operation would take place the next day, is that correct?
MR RAS: Yes, Mr Chairman.
MR JANSEN: Did they explain to you the operation was very urgent of nature?
MR RAS: Yes, that is correct.
MR JANSEN: Regarding the identification of the targets at Motherwell as the consideration with the elimination, was that the only way? Would it be in any way your function to attend to this matter?
MR RAS: As I have already said, we just assisted. That planning and work had already been done by Mr Nieuwoudt. Because of the fact that I went to Brig Van Rensburg the morning, he knew that I was going to Port Elizabeth and Col De Kock ordered me to go there, and therefore, I believed that at that stage all the necessary research had been done.
MR JANSEN: In the years, during the years you were involved in covert operations, did you ever get the impression that your colleagues did not do proper research before they approached you for assistance.
MR RAS: I have never been involved in any operation where the ultimate last decision was only to eliminate people.
MR JANSEN: In other words you relied on your trust you had in your colleagues?
MR RAS: Correct.
MR JANSEN: What did Nieuwoudt tell you during your journey to Port Elizabeth in the car?
MR RAS: It happened a long time ago and I can't remember everything. What I can recollect is that it was just after Dirk Coetzee had run away. He posed a threat for us at that stage. He mentioned the threat which these people who worked at Port Elizabeth posed for them as a branch and for the country, and he mentioned then that those people have already defected to the ANC and conveyed intelligence to them. And he said at that stage they were on the point of being arrested for fraud.
MR JANSEN: Do you know to how many people he referred?
MR RAS: Mr Chairman, I can't say specifically, I think he referred to three people involved in the Goniwe incident, and he mentioned two other people who were on the point of being charged. He never told me directly how many people had defected to the ANC or were involved in this operation.
MR JANSEN: Under whose command were you in the Eastern Cape?
MR RAS: I was under Col Nieuwoudt.
MR JANSEN: You were also present when they prepared the motorcar?
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: Later that evening you went with the Vlakplaas members to the point indicated by Nieuwoudt?
MR RAS: Is that where the vehicle was prepared?
MR JANSEN: No, where Mr Nieuwoudt told you to gather for the purposes of this operation at the Motherwell crossing.
MR RAS: Mr Chairman, I don't completely understand the question.
ADV DE JAGER: Did you go that evening to the place where the bomb exploded?
MR RAS: We went there that afternoon and that evening we went there again by ourselves.
MR JANSEN: I have skipped the activities of the whole day, forget about everything, apart from the visit that afternoon and later that evening, you went again to the place where the bomb would explode?
MR RAS: Correct.
MR JANSEN: What was your role there?
MR RAS: Mr Snyman and I, our tasks, if you could call it like that, were should the bomb not explode, to shoot the people when they returned.
MR JANSEN: You also were involved in the arming of this explosive device?
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR JANSEN: When the bomb detonated, what did you do?
MR RAS: Mr Snyman and I ran to the scene. I saw immediately there was no chance that there were any survivors. I took the transmitter from Nieuwoudt and we got in the vehicle with Mr Lotz, who took us back to our own vehicle.
MR JANSEN: Did you gain financially from this operation?
MR RAS: No, not at all.
MR JANSEN: Did you act because of personal spite against these victims?
MR RAS: No.
MR JANSEN: Did you regard that which you did, as part of your usual covert duties?
MR RAS: Mr Chairman, those were not ordinary duties, it was very difficult, because they were colleagues of ours.
MR JANSEN: Did you regard it as duties that you had to fulfil?
MR RAS: I regarded that as in the interests of the country.
MR JANSEN: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?
MR HUGO: I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS
Thank you, Mr Chairman, Booyens on behalf of Nieuwoudt and others. Mr Ras, I just want to clear up something on page 272 of your application. It appears to me as if when you and Mr De Kock, according to your version, went to Genl Van Rensburg, De Kock has already decided that three of you would go to Port Elizabeth. It was not a question that the operation could be put on hold?
MR RAS: Chairperson, I can't say what De Kock thought at that stage. He said I had to accompany him to Van Rensburg's office. In that office before anything else was said, he said that he was sending me, Snyman and Vermeulen to Port Elizabeth. Brig Van Rensburg wished us luck and then I left the office. He remained behind in the office.
MR HUGO: I understand that, but it seems to me that he had already chosen his team and the destination had been determined?
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR HUGO: You listened to Van Rensburg's evidence that he was not in his office that day. Can you perhaps think that could have happened at a different stage, that you met Van Rensburg with De Kock?
MR RAS: No, there were other incidents for which I am applying for amnesty, which were not discussed with Van Rensburg. It was discussed with De Kock who told me that Van Rensburg approved those. But for those cases I was not in his office personally, but for this incident I was personally in his office.
MR BOOYENS: The fact that De Kock mentioned to you that there were people who threatened to defect to the ANC, did he tell you that at Vlakplaas?
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Do you remember where Nieuwoudt was at that stage?
MR RAS: He was on the farm.
MR BOOYENS: Was he with you or were you alone with De Kock or can't you remember?
MR RAS: I can't remember, it happened too long ago.
MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY
Thank you, Mr Chairman. On behalf of Mr Snyman, just one question. Mr Ras, can you remember that during the journey from Vlakplaas to Port Elizabeth, you travelled in two vehicles, and at a certain stage passengers were switched and at a certain stage Mr Nieuwoudt also travelled with Mr Snyman?
MR RAS: Yes, I can remember something like that.
MR LAMEY: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Cornelius on behalf of the seventh applicant, Vermeulen, I have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?
MR KEMP: Mr Chairman, we have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ford?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FORD
Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Ras, it may be unnecessary, but just to clarify it. You are absolutely certain that you and Mr De Kock went to the office of Mr Van Rensburg that morning?
MR RAS: I am hundred per cent sure.
MR FORD: Which should mean that as far as you are concerned, that Mr Van Rensburg's evidence to the contrary is not true?
MR RAS: It could have been that he had forgotten, but I was definitely in his office that morning.
MR FORD: And you also told the Committee that on the way down you travelled together with Mr Nieuwoudt, is that right?
MR RAS: That is correct.
MR FORD: And from the evidence you have given he discussed in some detail with you the money which had allegedly been taken by these members who were to be killed and the fraud involved?
MR RAS: That was mentioned to me, yes.
MR FORD: But he appeared to be aware of the circumstances under which this had occurred?
MR RAS: Chairperson, I can't say specifically whether he knew. I know from my own experience of knowledge that I had and of my own involvement, that money was intercepted from certain organisations and was taken by the State and put in a secret fund. I don't know whether he mentioned to me specifically that they were involved, but he did refer to the fact that two people were involved and on the point of being charged for fraud.
MR FORD: You mention only two persons?
MR RAS: As far as I can remember, I have gone through nine months of a trial and the facts which were made known there, and I can just repeat that he mentioned two people who were charged for fraud, and the other two were involved in the Goniwe incident.
MR FORD: Just coming back to your application itself at page 258, Mr Ras - can you go to 258? In the middle of the page
"Eugene de Kock told us that there were Black members possibly members of the forces who were threatening to defect to the ANC, and would make known information regarding the Goniwe incident, and other incidents." He also said that these members were involved in theft of money."
Is that your clear recollection of what was conveyed to you by Mr De Kock at that stage.
MR RAS: That's correct.
MR FORD: There was no suggestion in what he told you that the members in question had already been recruited by the ANC?
MR RAS: That's ...
MR FORD: That they were threatening.
MR RAS: That is what I also gave evidence about. As far as I can remember, that is what De Kock told me that day.
MR FORD: Just give me a moment, Mr Chairman. I have no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORD
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?
MR BRINK: No questions, thank you, Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK
CHAIRPERSON: As far as you can remember, Col De Kock did not make any mention of an Askari?
MR RAS: Mr Chairman, he could have mentioned it. I don't want to say at this stage he did or he did not. I think he did mention an Askari. But he also referred to members of the security branch in Port Elizabeth.
CHAIRPERSON: Don't you think the word Askari had been mentioned, and taking into account the fact that you were working with Askaris at Vlakplaas, you would be able to remember that?
MR RAS: Mr Chairman, this all happened eight years ago. It could have been said. If I remember correctly, he might have mentioned an Askari being involved.
CHAIRPERSON: Did Nieuwoudt ever mention Askari or Askaris to you?
MR RAS: Mr Chairman, yes, Nieuwoudt did mention Askaris.
CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me?
MR RAS: Yes, Mr Chairman, Mr Nieuwoudt did mention an Askari.
CHAIRPERSON: I noticed that you thought for some time to think and apparently think very hard.
MR RAS: Mr Chairman, it is the only chance that I have. I have already been sentenced to 10 years imprisonment, and at this stage is my last chance to disclose everything I know.
CHAIRPERSON: What I am saying to you is that such a recollection does not seem to have come quite readily.
MR RAS: Mr Chairman, as far as I know, an Askari being involved was mentioned, and reference was made to policemen being involved.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he make any mention of an Askari or do you make any reference to Askari or Askaris as possible victims in your papers? I didn't come across one. It is maybe that I, you know, I was looking through your papers very quickly and I must definitely emphasise that I might be wrong.
MR RAS: Mr Chairman, I did not look at the documentation. I was thinking, trying hard to remember what happened at that stage. At a stage it was mentioned to us that Askaris were involved.
CHAIRPERSON: Can any of the counsel tell me whether in this witness' statement is mention being made of the fact that an Askari or Askaris were supposed to be some of the victims?
MR JANSEN: No, Mr Chairman, there is no reference to an Askari. Mr Chairman, there may be a reference, however oblique it might be at page 258, I am not the draughtsman of this, but he says
"Black members were possibly members of the force."
At page 258 in that third paragraph. So ...
CHAIRPERSON: I can assure you that when Vlakplaas people talk about an Askari, they don't use any other words, except the word Askari.
You see, Mr Ras, I would have thought that if mention was made of an Askari as a possible person to be killed, yes, you might not be able to remember that now standing in front of us, but certainly, when you drew up the papers, you would be able to remember that.
MR RAS: Yes, Mr Chairman, that is what I have said previously. As far as I can remember it was discussed, Askari was mentioned, and reference was also made to two policemen. I only know that reference was made to one Askari and two policemen.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you want to re-examine, Mr Jansen?
MR JANSEN: I have no questions in re-examination, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN
CHAIRPERSON: You are excused, Mr Ras, thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: I think this is a convenient stage to adjourn until tomorrow half-past nine.
HEARING ADJOURNS
