ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mohlaba.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair. May I now call the first applicant, being Francis Pitsi.
FRANCIS PITSI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mohlaba.
EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair. Mr Pitsi, you are the applicant in this matter. Having gone through your application form, I have noted that it was not attested before a Commissioner of Oaths. Can you confirm whether this is in fact the application form which you have filed with the relevant Committee of the TRC and whether you confirm the contents of this application form as the truth and binding on your conscience?
MR PITSI: Yes, that is the true copy of the application I made.
ADV DE JAGER: Was your original application attested? Was it signed by a Commissioner of Oaths?
MR PITSI: Yes, it was signed by the Commissioner of Oaths, unfortunately I wasn't ready to submit it to my lawyer (indistinct).
ADV DE JAGER: But then this one isn't a copy of the original? Mr Mohlaba, I don't want to discuss it with your client at this stage, but perhaps you could make sure whether he in fact filed another one, an original one that was properly attested or not.
If it wasn't attested, could you kindly apply your mind to addressing us at the end of the evidence as to whether this would in fact be an application in terms of the Act?
MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair. If I may indicate to the Chair, I have taken the point up with my client before, and he is of the opinion that the original copy which was filed, he is not certain whether it was attested, he believes that it is attested, but he brought to my attention that he had a copy of the application form which he had before he took it for attestation. He cannot, he is not certain whether the original one was attested or not.
If it transpires that the original one was not attested, which we may have to establish, then one may then address the Committee and at this stage I would want to ask the Chair to condone the non-compliance in this regard, as the applicant has in the event that it is established subsequently, that there was no substantial compliance, in so far as it relates to attestation, that having got the applicant here to confirm that he is the signatory to the form and that the contents of this form, is correct to condone the non-compliance.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think Mr Mohlaba, the applicant can proceed with his evidence and as Mr De Jager said, we will hear submissions on this aspect, but in the meantime we will just proceed with it.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair. Mr Pitsi, you were born during 1964, can you tell the Committee where were you born?
MR PITSI: I was born in (indistinct) in the Winterveldt and then I was brought up in Atteridgeville.
MR MOHLABA: You are applying for amnesty for certain offences, it is not very clear on your application form, which offences in particular, you are applying amnesty for, in particular paragraph 9 of your application form.
Can you briefly explain to the Committee which acts or omission are you applying amnesty for?
MR PITSI: To start with, I am applying for the murder of the three policemen in Atteridgeville and the attempted murder of Maleka and a guy that I can't remember his name at the moment.
CHAIRPERSON: Where did that Maleka incident take place?
MR PITSI: Come again?
CHAIRPERSON: The Maleka, the attempted murder of Maleka, where was that?
MR PITSI: Number 3 Mariana Street.
CHAIRPERSON: Was that also the other attempted murder that you apply for, also at the same address?
MR PITSI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You apply for the murder of the three policemen at Mariana Street, together with the attempted murders that were there?
MR PITSI: Yes.
MR MOHLABA: Can you proceed, any other offence?
MR PITSI: I am applying for the Juicy Lucy explosion and the Proes explosion as well.
MR MOHLABA: During the evidence of your co-applicant, Mr Toka, it emerged that he including yourself, escaped from lawful custody. Is it your desire to also apply for amnesty in respect of that offence?
MR PITSI: That will be my desire to apply for that as well.
MR MOHLABA: Would you want to request an amendment to your application form, to include that incident in particular?
MR PITSI: Yes.
MR MOHLABA: I submit Chair, there is no prejudice suffered by anyone.
ADV DE JAGER: No, that is not a question of prejudice. It is a question of putting up in a complete new offence.
CHAIRPERSON: I think on this question, we will also deal with later, Mr Mohlaba, because the Act states that you've got three criteria to comply with basically, and one is the political objective, two is the full disclosure of all relevant facts and three is whether the application complies with the requirements of the Act, and that third one, I think it is actually the first one as it appears in the Section, is the technical one, whether an application has been submitted before the cut off date, etc, etc, and whether it is in the time, etc.
So once again, with this, you can lead the evidence and then we will deal with the matter when it comes to argument stage and we will deal with any applications to amend or for condemnation at that stage I think.
MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair. Mr Pitsi, the reason why you are applying for amnesty in respect of the offences which you have mentioned, is that these offences were committed with a political objective, is that your case?
MR PITSI: It is true.
MR MOHLABA: Did you belong to any political organisation during the commission of these offences and if so, tell us the name of the organisation?
MR PITSI: Yes, I did belong to an organisation, which was the African National Congress.
MR MOHLABA: Can you take the Committee or explain to the Committee when you joined the African National Congress, how you came to join it and the various role which you were playing there?
MR PITSI: I joined the, I was a member of the Destabilising Committee of Atteridgeville, whereby we used to deter the police from carrying their operation on our people in Atteridgeville.
Thereafter I realised that it was not enough. In 1988, then I joined the African National Congress.
I was basically recruited inside the country, and then I received my military training inside the country.
MR MOHLABA: You received your military training as a soldier of MK, of the military wing of the African National Congress, is that correct?
MR PITSI: Yes, that is true.
MR MOHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee in full details how and when you were recruited and the nature of the training which you received?
MR PITSI: Maybe it is because of my activities that I had, I was spotted by Mishack Odirele Maponya, whose pseudonym was Mensday. He did send Ernest Ramadite to my place to invite me for a meeting, and there it is when we decided, I decided that I would join the ANC after having a lengthy discussion with Mensday Maponya.
MR MOHLABA: Take us through the nature of training which you underwent.
MR PITSI: Being versatile to different places in South Africa, we did agree that the training will assume on the date that I can't remember at the moment, and there between me, Ernest Ramadite, George Mathe and Mensday, we went somewhere towards Mafikeng where we received training of AK47's, hand grenade and limpet mines.
The hand grenade and the AK47, it was practical lessons that we had.
MR MOHLABA: Can you take the Committee through this incident where three police officers were shot and killed with clear details of how this operation was carried out, how was it planned and who was involved in this operation?
MR PITSI: After we received our military training inside the country, we sat down with Odirele Mishack Maponya and we were given a task to identify a target of which we did, and we went back to him. Then after a period, actually he gave us the task to surveil the place for a certain period. I don't know what transpired thereafter.
After a certain period of a week or so, he came back to us and the permission was granted and ammunition and weapons were given. The operation that we targeted, it was 3 Mariana Street, where this notorious policemen used to frequent.
On the said day, we went to Mariana, being the three of us, me myself, Ernest Ramadite and George Mathe. On our arrival there, the position was not suitable for us to carry out the operation, we had to part because behind, firstly we did identify the policemen and behind them, you know, it was towards the house, if we carried the operation from that angle, we were definitely going to injure people who were inside the house then.
We decided to pass and come from the other angle, because the other angle, it gave us more opportunity and more chance of not hitting the civilians which were drinking, sitting and drinking there.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you just give us any idea of the numbers of people there? We know there were your three victims, your three targets, were there 50, 60, 100 other people or 6 or 5, more or less?
MR PITSI: I am saying this under correction, it could have been 10 to 12 people, scattered in clusters in the yard.
On that operation, we had an AK47, we had a Macarov pistol and we had a grenade, but I took the decision that the grenade shouldn't be used because of the nature of the seating which was in the yard.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you in charge of the three of you?
MR PITSI: I was the Commander.
CHAIRPERSON: Of the three of you that you mentioned there?
MR PITSI: It is true, I was the Commander of the Unit.
CHAIRPERSON: Continue please.
MR PITSI: Thereafter, after agreeing what to be used, then we went for the second time, coming from a different angle and we shot the policemen.
CHAIRPERSON: What sort of range?
MR PITSI: That was a very close range, it was about four to five meters. We went close, very close to the victims.
MR MOHLABA: And they were shot by - who was handling the firearm?
MR PITSI: I was handling the AK47.
MR MOHLABA: And can you remember how many shots were fired in total?
MR PITSI: It has been a long time, I can't remember very clearly, but I think ...
CHAIRPERSON: Did you have it on automatic mode?
MR PITSI: It was on automatic, but it was controlled timeously. I think if I am not mistaken, we were left with four rounds or three rounds in our magazine.
CHAIRPERSON: Out of 15 or 36 or what?
MR PITSI: Out of 30, no, 20.
CHAIRPERSON: So you shot plus minus 15 or 16 rounds.
MR PITSI: Exactly, under correction.
MR MOHLABA: Why shooting, you were aiming at the three police officers?
MR PITSI: Yes, actually when we passed, there were four seated, but when we came back, there were only three and then we didn't want to abort the mission, because it was a suitable time that we could have carried the mission successfully without injuring any person around the place.
ADV DE JAGER: Were there in fact four people that you targeted?
MR PITSI: Yes.
ADV DE JAGER: What was the name of the fourth one?
MR PITSI: That was David, I can't remember the surname, but his first name is David.
ADV DE JAGER: And did you have permission to kill him too?
MR PITSI: He was amongst the, he was one of the people who was amongst the list.
CHAIRPERSON: We have heard evidence, not evidence, but we have heard that it will be put that there were two other people that were injured there. The owner of the house and another lady.
MR PITSI: No, it wasn't a lady, it was a man.
CHAIRPERSON: A man?
MR PITSI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And it was said by Ms Mtanga in her questioning, that it will be put that, the lady will say that she was actually shot at. The first shots were directed at her?
MR PITSI: Should I contribute on that one?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what is your comment?
MR PITSI: It is practically impossible because from the angle that I came at, you know, the door, the dining room door was slightly behind me and then the kitchen door, we couldn't see the kitchen door.
If she says we aimed at her, that is absolutely wrong, that is not true.
MR MOHLABA: Is there a possibility that she may have been struck by one of the bullets, one or more of the bullets?
MR PITSI: The possibility is there because you know when you shoot, bullets ricochet and she might have been hit by a stray bullet.
The way we have placed ourselves, we didn't want to effect the other people, there was a wall in front, diagonal front, opposite.
CHAIRPERSON: Who had the Macarov?
MR PITSI: George Mathe had the Macarov.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he fire?
MR PITSI: I am not very clear. He will be here to contribute on that one.
MR MOHLABA: Can you continue and explain what happened after you shot them?
MR PITSI: After we shot them, we had to retreat because I sustained, well that comes back to the question that the Chairman has asked, if George fired, yes, I remember he did fire one, because I sustained a bullet wound in my right hand side.
Then thereafter we retreated from Mariana Street to Manaka Street. There it is when we met, the first person that we met, it was Mensday the Overall Commander, he came to check and see if everybody was okay and everything has been successful.
CHAIRPERSON: What time of the day did this take place, or night, Mr Pitsi?
MR PITSI: I can't remember.
CHAIRPERSON: Approximately, was it late or in the evening?
MR PITSI: Late, late in the evening, around seven, eight o'clock.
MR MOHLABA: For record purposes, the three police officers that we are talking about, it is Barney Mope, Andrew Mphahlele and Nelson Phenyane?
MR PITSI: That is right, exactly.
MR MOHLABA: You have indicated to the Committee that these three people with the fourth person, were identified as suitable targets to be attacked.
Can you explain fully how or when you decided to carry out this mission, who sanctioned it and so forth?
MR PITSI: Yes, after discussing this issue with Mensday, because it was very clear, those were very notorious in Atteridgeville in several incidents, were seen at the scene of destabilisation of Atteridgeville and it was decided at the end of the day that they must be eliminated, because they are causing terror in Atteridgeville and the surrounding cities around Atteridgeville.
MR MOHLABA: You indicated that you at the time of this incident, you were staying at Atteridgeville yourself. Did you know these victims individually and that is having interacted with them previously?
MR PITSI: No, actually I never socialised much with policemen. The only person that I think I know, was Barney Mope. The others, you know, I learnt about them as the complaints took place in Atteridgeville.
CHAIRPERSON: How did you know Mope? Did you know him personally?
MR PITSI: Not personally, you know, he didn't stay very far from my place, that is how I know him.
MR MOHLABA: Was there anyone of you, that is yourself and the other two comrades of you, who had a personal vendetta or a score to settle with one of the deceased according to your knowledge?
MR PITSI: Not anything that I know of, no.
MR MOHLABA: So it is your case that the killing of these officers was in furtherance of a political objective as opposed to settling personal scores or achieving pure personal gains?
MR PITSI: No, it was not for achieving personal gain or settling scores, but it was the furtherance of the beliefs, the aims and objectives of the African National Congress, to target the policemen who were notorious, who were terrorising our locations.
MR MOHLABA: You have told the Committee already that after the operation, you met with one of your Commanders?
MR PITSI: Yes.
MR MOHLABA: Can you explain whether the operation was discussed with that Commander and did you discuss it with any other person, other than him?
MR PITSI: No. The operation was discussed between the four of us and later, Rodney Toka joined us and we left everything with George Mathe and Ernest Ramadite as a Commander. We proceeded to Mamelodi where I had to travel to Botswana to remove my bullet.
MR MOHLABA: You mentioned that you sustained a gun shot. If I heard you correctly, was this shot discharged from the Macarov pistol which one of your comrades had?
MR PITSI: Yes.
MR MOHLABA: So you were accidentally shot by him, is that correct?
MR PITSI: That is true.
MR MOHLABA: When did you become aware that other than the three police officers, some one or more persons were injured in this attack?
MR PITSI: The first time we became aware of it, it was during our trial that besides the three policemen, other two people got hurt that time.
MR MOHLABA: The people who were hurt according to what you have said, that you moved very close to the three deceased people before firing on them, the other two people who were hurt, were clearly not the intended target, is that correct?
MR PITSI: No, those were not the intended targets.
MR MOHLABA: With regard to this specific attack and the killing of these three officers, do you have anything to add?
MR PITSI: Yes.
MR MOHLABA: You can go ahead.
MR PITSI: Being the Commander of the Ernest Ramadite and George Mathe, I ordered from the top structure down to me, I gave them the order to go and place the limpet mine at Juicy Lucy, termed Juicy Lucy and the other one was supposed to perpetrate the presence of the African National Congress in the country.
The onus laid on George Mathe to place it where he wants to.
MR MOHLABA: Okay, we will move over to the other incidents. I want to confine you now to this incident where the three police officers were killed. I want to find out from you whether, is there anything that you want to add other than what you have already told the Committee, with regard to that aspect?
MR PITSI: No.
MR MOHLABA: May we now move over to the incident of the so-called Juicy Lucy bombing. Can you explain to the Committee the role you have played there and the level of involvement, your level of involvement?
MR PITSI: Because of the injuries that I had, I couldn't participate myself on that operation, but I had to rely on my trustworthy comrades, that took the operation up themselves.
Ernest Ramadite who is not present today, took the Juicy Lucy operation and George Mathe took the Proes operation, placed the limpet mine under the Renault car.
MR MOHLABA: Let's first confine ourselves to the so-called Juicy Lucy blast. Can you tell the Committee how was that planned and did you sit and talk about it before it was carried out, or a device was only given to the operatives to go out and identify a target and carry out the bombing. Can you just explain what happened?
MR PITSI: Yes, actually it was discussed, we discussed that issue thoroughly and then it was decided that it should be taken up there because of the military personnel which was there, and some I can't remember very well, because Ernest Ramadite is the one who came with the, actually who can explain it better because he was the Commissar, and he knew all the offices which were situated around that area, between the corner of Vermeulen and Andries Street.
Then that is why he took it upon himself that he will place the limpet mine there.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it Ramadite who actually placed the limpet mine?
MR PITSI: Yes, the super limpet mine, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: He himself? Was he alone?
MR PITSI: Yes, he was alone.
MR MOHLABA: Can you explain the relationship in so far as it relates to chains of command between yourself, Ramadite and the other co-applicants, that is Mathe?
MR PITSI: The relationship was a sound one. There was a coordination and everything that we did, we discussed it before no one would have moved out of the group and go and decide to do his own operation without consulting with us.
I think the relationship and the communication was very sound between the three of us, coupled with the commanding structure that was Odirele Mensday Mishack Maponya.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you yourself do any surveillance at that corner of Andries and Vermeulen Street where the limpet mine was ultimately placed, you yourself, personally?
MR PITSI: No, I didn't do that, I relied on his expertise to inform me, because I couldn't go out, I was injured myself.
MR MOHLABA: The way you operated generally, who was giving orders to the others? Were you heading that Unit or rather to start here, did you and Ramadite belong to the same Unit?
MR PITSI: Yes.
MR MOHLABA: And who was heading the Unit?
MR PITSI: I was heading the Unit.
MR MOHLABA: So after you were injured?
MR PITSI: Ramadite took over and let me clarify one thing here, after my injury, we had to bring one in, to recruit one person, and that was Johannes Maleka.
MR MOHLABA: So then your Unit grew from three members to four members, is that correct?
MR PITSI: Yes.
MR MOHLABA: And Ernest was one of, was also commanding?
MR PITSI: Yes, during my absence he took over the command post.
CHAIRPERSON: Did Johannes Maleka have anything to do with this bomb at or near Juicy Lucy?
MR PITSI: No.
CHAIRPERSON: So was he recruited later then or what?
MR PITSI: He was recruited later, after the bomb blast.
MR MOHLABA: Do you know who supplied the hardware to Ramadite for the blast at Juicy Lucy?
MR PITSI: I received, if I am not mistaken, I received the mines from Odirele Mishack Mensday Maponya, provided Ramadite with one and Mathe with one.
CHAIRPERSON: Was Maponya still alive at that stage?
MR PITSI: Excuse me, I think I am mixing issues here.
CHAIRPERSON: This took place in May?
MR PITSI: In May, no, no, no, it wasn't Mishack, it was if I am not, it was Makobe, Toka's Commissar.
MR MOHLABA: Can you explain the level of interaction between yourself and Mr Toka, was he senior to you in terms of giving orders? Did you get orders from him or would you be giving orders to him, would you just explain the sequence there?
MR PITSI: Yes, taking the command structure into consideration, he was my senior because he fell in the command structure, so I was receiving orders from him, from above. He will get orders from above and then direct them straight to the Unit.
MR MOHLABA: Normally when this target gets identified, would you normally go to Mr Toka and explain to him that there is this target which has been identified by our Unit and seek his approval, or can you explain what was happening?
MR PITSI: Yes, actually we would first discuss it amongst ourselves and then we will make an appointment with Toka and then we will iron all the pros and cons out for the operations.
MR MOHLABA: So the operation will normally be carried after he came to you and ...
MR PITSI: Give us the go ahead, yes.
MR MOHLABA: When did you learn of this blast, the so-called Juicy Lucy blast, was it on the day of the incident or was it some days thereafter?
MR PITSI: It was - I learnt about it the following day.
MR MOHLABA: And how did you learn about that, was it through the press release, reports, or your operatives came back to you and briefed you about the whole operation?
MR PITSI: Yes, first of all, I learnt it from the newspapers and thereafter, I couldn't because my condition was terrible that day, I didn't have the opportunity to meet with them, but I think under correction, they met with Mr Toka.
MR MOHLABA: When did you become aware of the victims, that there were civilians that were injured in that attack?
MR PITSI: During the process of the trial, that is when I learnt that there were victims effected there.
CHAIRPERSON: Would you not have read that in the newspaper? Didn't you say you learnt about the blast in the newspaper?
MR PITSI: The newspaper yes, in the newspaper.
CHAIRPERSON: I think the newspaper normally would focus in on the point that people were injured, rather than just talking about a blast and making no mention of injuries.
MR PITSI: Yes, but they didn't put it straight that they were all civilians or all army people.
I mean the absolute knowledge of it that they were all civilians ...
CHAIRPERSON: The identity of the victims you only learnt in the trial, are you saying?
MR PITSI: Yes, yes.
MR MOHLABA: We have already heard that you together with your co-applicants were arrested for this incident and can you tell the Committee whether you were sentenced and served a prison term in respect of this offence in particular?
MR PITSI: Yes, we were arrested on the 13th of June 1988, and the trial was running. During the process, we escaped from prison, from Modabi prison.
MR MOHLABA: And after escaping from prison, you went into exile, is that correct?
MR PITSI: Yes, yes.
MR MOHLABA: Indemnity for these offences, was ultimately granted, is that correct?
MR PITSI: Yes, if I am not mistaken, it was granted in 1995.
MR MOHLABA: Was there also indemnity granted for the murder? Wasn't the indemnity only granted for non gross violations, I am not sure, I am asking you whether you perhaps know?
MR PITSI: It doesn't state very clearly that you were indemnified for such ...
CHAIRPERSON: Specific things, because I think there was a sort of general indemnity granted for all the people who were returning in respect of leaving the country unlawfully and receiving military training and that sort of thing, and when that indemnity was granted, you saw the government gazettes and there were just lists of names with no specific mention of any particular incident next to their names.
MR PITSI: But actually we did sought special indemnity whilst we were in Lusaka.
CHAIRPERSON: For these specific acts, yes?
MR PITSI: For these specific acts.
CHAIRPERSON: Although the indemnity you got, isn't specific on it, it doesn't specifically mention it, you assumed that you got indemnity?
MR PITSI: Exactly Your Honour.
MR MOHLABA: For record purposes, what is your occupation now Mr Pitsi?
MR PITSI: I am a Fly Sergeant in the South African Air Force.
MR MOHLABA: Mr Chairman, I note that it is half past four now.
CHAIRPERSON: I think, would this be a convenient time to adjourn for the day and if you think of anything else you want to lead in chief, you can do so tomorrow morning, otherwise we will commence with questions by the other legal representatives.
Would it be possible to commence tomorrow morning at nine o'clock? I don't want everyone to say yes, and then we get here and then we start at half past nine or quarter to ten or eleven or whatever. Will it be safer to say half past nine?
MR PITSI: Excuse me?
CHAIRPERSON: Would everybody be ready to start at half past nine?
MR PITSI: I think I will be ready Your Honour.
CHAIRPERSON: No well, it must be ready at half past nine.
MR PITSI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Because we have been delayed enough. Would nine o'clock be possible?
MR PITSI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Is nine o'clock possible? If it is suitable to people, we will start at nine o'clock, if it is not suitable, we will start at half past nine.
Is nine o'clock suitable? All right, then thank you, if we can please ensure that we start at nine o'clock tomorrow morning, at this venue. We will then adjourn this matter until tomorrow, that is the 27th, at nine o'clock in the morning, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
