Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

MR JOUBERT: Phuti Benny Mokgonyana - M-o-k-g-o-n-y-a-n-a.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokgonyana, in which language would you prefer to testify in? Can you push the button?

MR MOKGONYANA: I would prefer to speak English.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

PHUTI BERNARD MOKGONYANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Joubert?

EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT: Thank you Mr Chairman, before I'm leading Mr Mokgonyana's evidence, I want to put on record that I'm calling Mr Mokgonyana as a witness, he is not as an applicant before this Commission, to come and testify due to

the fact that he was implicated this morning on the attack of the Kulele's house and this is solely calling this witness to come and clarify in front of the Commission what was his involvement especially in that attack.

Mr Mokgonyana, you at present, where do you live at present?

MR MOKGONYANA: I live in Acacia.

MR JOUBERT: And your occupation presently?

MR MOKGONYANA: I'm actually the senior officer at the Medical Council.

MR JOUBERT: Mr Mokgonyana, you know what this week was all about in the amnesty application where certain applicants applied to appear in front of the Commission to hear evidence of attacks that took place in the early years '88 and this is why the Commission sits this week and can I ask you, are you aware of the facts that were presented or not presented of the Kulele attack and what happened there and if not, I will briefly inform you exactly what was the events that took place during that attack?

MR MOKGONYANA: I would like you to brief me, okay.

MR JOUBERT: In '88 there was an attack 10th May of '88 ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Could we just find out, do you know a person with the name of Kulele?

MR MOKGONYANA: Yes, yes definitely I know him.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know of any attack on his house?

MR MOKGONYANA: Yes definitely I know.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you perhaps tell us what you know about the attack?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well actually I read in the paper that there was an attack on the Kulele house, I read it. Actually the story appeared in the Sowetan, actually if my memory serves me well.

CHAIRPERSON: And would this have been during 1988?

MR MOKGONYANA: Yes definitely it was during 1988.

ADV SANDI: When you read it in the newspaper did this come as news to you, was it something new?

MR MOKGONYANA: Actually it came as a shock to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Joubert?

MR JOUBERT: Mr Mokgonyana, can I put it this way to you, can I ask you what was your - was there any involvement in the planning, executing, logistic support in the attack on the Kulele's house?

MR MOKGONYANA: I was never involved in the planning or that attack on the Kulele house, I was absolutely never involved.

MR JOUBERT: So what you're saying Mr Mokgonyana that you didn't know at the time of the attack, you didn't know there was going to be an attack on the Kulele's house, you found it out in the Sowetan and you were not at all, you were not aware of any such attack and at all involved in such attack?

MR MOKGONYANA: It is true, I was never actually that thing, aware of any impending attack on the house.

MR JOUBERT: Mr Mokgonyana, did you know Mr Nkosi at all?

CHAIRPERSON: Joseph Nkosi.

MR MOKGONYANA: I know him yes.

MR JOUBERT: And can you state that Mr Nkosi was in any way -assisted this attack in any manner?

MR MOKGONYANA: I don't have any clues or leads whether actually Mr Nkosi was actually that thing involved in the attack.

MR JOUBERT: And can I put it to you that Mr Nkosi at any stage hand you over to Mr Toka to do some work or to be an operative and to execute some attacks?

MR MOKGONYANA: Now actually, I mean the fact that I got involved with Mr Toka was the fact that I supplied transport to Mr Nkosi.

MR JOUBERT: So at no stage Mr Nkosi, Joseph Nkosi, took you to Mr Toka and said "Mr Toka, here's Benny, he is ready to continue with the struggle, he's been trained and he can continue now with the struggle. If there is certain things that he can go and do and execute"? Sorry, "I have trained him and he is now a soldier to commit certain activities for the cell or for the ANC" at that stage?

MR MOKGONYANA: Actually I would say, I mean the first time I met Mr Toka was in Kagiso, I mean Krugersdorp. It was the day that I have actually transported Mr Nkosi and Mr Gutrim Ncube and Toka actually himself, the two that ...[indistinct]

MR JOUBERT: Can I ask you were you in any way trained in weapon handling or handling in explosives?

MR MOKGONYANA: Actually we never - I mean got involved with - I mean that ammunition or weapons actually in the presence of Mr Toka.

MR JOUBERT: Mr Mokgonyana, and lastly can you tell the Commission that you know or who did execute the attack on the Kulele's house or who was involved?

MR MOKGONYANA: I don't have any idea really.

MR JOUBERT: And is it correct if I'm saying that you were charged, you stood trial and you were acquitted on all charges?

MR MOKGONYANA: It's true, yes, it's true.

MR JOUBERT: No further questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Joubert. Mr Mohlaba, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MOHLABA: No thanks, I've got no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molefe, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MOLEFE: Just one or two questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOLEFE: Mr Mokgonyana, Mr Nkosi has already testified to this Committee that he recruited you and that the part of what he was doing, that it was logistics, providing transport for various reasons, is it correct that he recruited you and you also provided transport sometimes?

CHAIRPERSON: When you say recruited, recruited into what? ANC or MK or both?

MR MOLEFE: Into MK?

MR MOKGONYANA: Actually I was a member of the African National Congress, I joined it in 1981.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but the question was did Mr Nkosi recruit you to assist with MK? With uMkhonto weSizwe, the military wing of the African National Congress?

MR MOKGONYANA: Actually I would say it's - I knew after actually we have actually transported the arms that actually some of, I mean that the people that were linked to Mr Nkosi were actually members of the MK but I was never actually that thing involved in subversive - I mean that activities, I mean I never took part in any armed action but I was actually sympathetic towards the cause of the ANC.

MR MOLEFE: So is it correct that whenever you transported these people it was per request from Mr Nkosi?

MR MOKGONYANA: Okay could you repeat yourself?

MR MOLEFE: Is it correct that usually when you transported these people it was per request from Mr Nkosi?

MR MOKGONYANA: Yes it's true.

MR MOLEFE: Do you remember a gentleman by the name of Webster?

MR MOKGONYANA: Yes, I know him, Webster. I've met with him before.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what his name was besides Webster?

MR MOKGONYANA: No. No.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay Mr Molefe, continue?

MR MOLEFE: Thank you. And did you - when did you meet Webster, under what circumstances did you meet Webster?

MR MOKGONYANA: The first time when I met Webster actually, actually if my memory serves me well we actually went out on an outing, you know it was just ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Social?

MR MOKGONYANA: I mean outing, pleasure outing that we went out for.

MR MOLEFE: And in your company was he or were you, when you met Webster?

MR MOKGONYANA: Excuse me?

MR MOLEFE: In whose company was Mr Webster?

MR MOKGONYANA: He was with Mr Nkosi.

MR MOLEFE: Any other person?

MR MOKGONYANA: No we were actually only - if I remember when we left Mamelodi we went to Atteridgeville and actually we also went to Sashengube and I was also with my girlfriend there, it was also my girlfriend involved.

MR MOLEFE: Did you ever meet with Webster in the presence of Mr Toka?

MR MOKGONYANA: No I don't recall really.

MR MOLEFE: But could it have happened?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well actually as I've been declared actually those encounters I had with Toka was in, I mean Krugersdorp. That was the first encounter I mean that I had with Toka.

CHAIRPERSON: But would you say is it possible that you met Webster in the company of or together with Mr Toka?

MR MOKGONYANA: No I don't think it actually did I mean happen.

MR MOLEFE: Earlier on you had said that you were a member of the ANC?

MR MOKGONYANA: Yes I joined it in 1981 in Botswana.

MR MOLEFE: And were you trained at any stage whatsoever in the use of arms?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well actually I mean during that time actually I was involved in I mean that thing, the distribution of literature.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you trained in the use of firearms such as AK47's and pistols and maybe even hand grenades?

MR MOKGONYANA: I mean when I joined it I was never really trained really at all, I mean by that time I actually had never undergone a crash course I mean during that time.

MR MOLEFE: Okay although it is not a subject matter of this application, you know just to take things chronologically, it is so that you once, you served time at one stage for the activities of the African National Congress. At one stage you were sentenced?

MR MOKGONYANA: Ja.

MR MOLEFE: That is before this Kulele incident?

MR MOKGONYANA: Ja I was sentenced in 1982.

MR MOLEFE: Right. Now Tiger, that is Joseph Nkosi?

MR MOKGONYANA: Ja.

MR MOLEFE: Says that at one stage he did train you, he did give you some crash course, I mean crash course training in the use of pistols, makarof and hand grenade?

MR MOKGONYANA: No actually, I mean taught me how to use the pistol, I mean I knew how to use the pistol before.

MR MOLEFE: But did he ...[intervention]

MR MOKGONYANA: I mean this crash course that I had was in I think during 1986 but Tiger didn't I mean train me in the use of that and the pistol or whatever.

CHAIRPERSON: And the hand grenade and the AK47?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well actually the hand grenade I know how actually it worked even if I didn't actually use it physically.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is very simple, did Mr Nkosi ever train you in the use of firearms, AK47's, pistols and in the use of hand grenades?

MR MOKGONYANA: No. No.

ADV DE JAGER: Who trained you?

MR MOKGONYANA: Actually the person who trained me was Mr Joseph Ntoli.

ADV DE JAGER: And that was in 1986?

MR MOKGONYANA: Ja during 1986.

ADV SANDI: Where was this training?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well it, I mean took place in Mamelodi.

ADV SANDI: How long did it take?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well roughly a week or two, I'm not so sure which one.

MR MOLEFE: And Mr Nkosi was not aware that you were trained when you were assisting him to transport people in 1988?

MR MOKGONYANA: He knew that I was that thing, I mean that thing, activist, I was involved. I mean due to that fact that he knew that I was actually that thing involved, in that struggle but you know, he had that trust in me, that's why he approached me, I mean for transport.

MR MOLEFE: Now as an activist living in Mamelodi during that time and as a member of the African National Congress and as a member of uMkhonto weSizwe, I take it you're a member of uMkhonto weSizwe, is that correct?

MR MOKGONYANA: Ja, that's correct.

MR MOLEFE: What were your views in as far as policemen were concerned?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well we, I mean that thing perceived the policemen as actual depressive machinery you know during that time and I mean millions, even including myself, you know my family were actually victims and you know.

MR JOUBERT: Excuse me Mr Chairman, I must object to this question, Mr Mokgonyana is only testifying especially in terms of the Kulele incident and he's not really an applicant in front of this Commission and I object against the situation what was his views towards the government and the police at that stage. He's not an applicant to this Commission at the present moment.

MR MOLEFE: I do not in anyway whatsoever, you know, labour any interpretation that Mr Mokgonyana is an applicant. We are all well aware that he's not an applicant but there are certain statements that had been made which in one way or another involve him not necessarily, not all the statements in actual fact link him to the commission of an offence but some of them may have led at a later stage to a commission of an offence.

CHAIRPERSON: You can proceed Mr Molefe but don't let's dwell on too much time on the opinions of the witness.

MR MOLEFE: You see, Mr Nkosi testified that there were discussions that were held within MK structures that there has been a call to isolate a policeman and that policemen have to be attacked and policemen must be - those policemen that have to be attacked have to be identified. Were there such discussions?

MR MOKGONYANA: I mean you mean between me and Mr Nkosi or I mean generally in the township? Are you actually referring to - that the general discussion in the township or what?

MR MOLEFE: Maybe let's start it as generally, is it so?

MR MOKGONYANA: Ja, there was talk in the township ja, about you know, actually isolating the policemen and women.

MR MOLEFE: Ja and Mr Nkosi went further to say that during some of the discussion that - in which you were present, such discussions were held that some, I mean policemen have to be attacked have to be identified and so forth and responding to the ANC call to isolate and attack policemen?

MR MOKGONYANA: Actually what actually I would say actually during the period that I was involved with Mr Nkosi, I would say that we never actually carried out, any - or myself, carried out any armed attack in his presence you know because I remember when we met, you know within a month or two and you know he was - I mean that thing, arrested actually, but we never actually discussed any armed attack on any person, we never did at that stage.

MR MOLEFE: Ja well Mr Nkosi himself has also said that he was not present when an attack, I mean took place where you ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Molefe if you'll press your button please?

MR MOLEFE: Mr Nkosi also said that he was not present or no attack took place in his presence where you could have allegedly been involved in, he never witnessed anything like that?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well that's his - I mean that's his opinion and I've haven't even seen him in any attack.

MR MOLEFE: Okay.

ADV DE JAGER: But there was evidence by Mr Toka that you were instructed, you and Mr Nkosi to go and throw a hand grenade at Mr Kulele's house?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well that's not true. Toka, we never had any discussion about the Kulele affair.

ADV DE JAGER: And Mr Nkosi says he was also present when you were ordered to go and throw that hand grenade and that months later you told him that you threw the hand grenade but it was an unfortunate situation.

MR MOKGONYANA: That's not true, I never had any discussion with Mr Toka about any armed attack on any person, absolutely.

The first encounter and the last encounter I had with Toka was in Krugersdorp and you know the atmosphere didn't allow us to discuss such things you know.

ADV DE JAGER: And Mr Nkosi said that he was your commander?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well actually it would say it's - Nkosi was actually my comrade and we never, you know, I mean during that period we never discussed anything, even if that would have been, that thing a possibility at some stage, you know to get that thing involved but during that period we never had any discussions about attacking any person, I didn't have any weapon with me, on me, I didn't have any grenade, I didn't have any ammunition so I couldn't have carried out any attack at that point in time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molefe?

MR MOLEFE: Thank you Mr Chair.

You have testified that you had met a gentleman by the name of Webster or - what happened to him?

MR MOKGONYANA: Webster, during our trial we learnt that he was killed, that was just through the, you know, the grapevine but I don't have facts, you know, to confirm that but that's what came to our ears during our trial in Delmas.

MR MOLEFE: Did he testify in your trial?

MR MOKGONYANA: Webster yes, I think he did testify, ja. He did testify and - ja he did testify.

MR MOLEFE: That's all Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLEFE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Molefe. Mr Mokone, do you have any questions?

MR MOKONE: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Monyane, do you have any questions?

MS MONYANE: None Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dreyer do you have any questions?

MR DREYER: No questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes Mr Chairperson thank you.

Mr Mokgonyana, you have just testified that you believe that Mr or Webster did testify at your trial?

MR MOKGONYANA: No he did in fact testify, it's a fact ja.

MS MTANGA: Can you remember what was the essence of his testimony?

MR MOKGONYANA: Some years back - let me see. Just it's difficult to say but all in all I think maybe he was, if my memory serves me well, you know, he was you know, trying to prove maybe the case of the state that you know, the accused were actually members of the ANC and were trained and you know they were part of it's you know, unit, you know, cells but I don't - I remember faintly what he said, ja, during the trial.

MS MTANGA: Do you recall if he testified against you or in your favour?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well actually the case of the state against myself and Mr Nkosi was the Kulele incident, we were linked with the Kulele incident actually and he could have testified to the fact that I and Mr Nkosi were actually that thing involved, in the attack.

MS MTANGA: I agree with you with what you have just said now. In the judgement it is said that Webster testified that you and Mr Nkosi were involved in the attack on the Kulele house. What I would like to ask you now, there's evidence from Mr Toka, from Mr Nkosi and there was evidence by Webster that you were involved in the attack at the Kulele house. Do you still deny that you were never involved even despite these three people that are implicating you in the incident?

MR MOKGONYANA: No I was never involved and I mean to some extent, Kulele, we grew together, Mr Kulele, we grew together and we are actually I mean indirectly related, you know, to some extent to Kulele. I couldn't have attacked his house.

MS MTANGA: Okay as an MK member to which units were you attached?

MR MOKGONYANA: Actually I worked with Mr Astoli and the other gentleman by the name of Don.

MS MTANGA: Okay, if you work in a particular unit can you still work with other units because Toka and Nkosi belonged to two different units, how come you worked at some point with Nkosi and Toka as in accordance with evidence you've just led with ...[intervention]

MR MOKGONYANA: No, Nkosi, you know I became involved with him for a brief time and it was the fact that I had transport and you know, as I've said you know, I come from a family of I mean that thing, activists and he was aware that actually I was aligned to the ANC and I was an activist and he approached me solely on the basis of having to actually - approached me solely on the basis of transport and that's where actually the discussion took place, it never involved any attack at that stage. Maybe he could have come up with it you know at some point but the discussion I had with him was solely based on transport.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Mtanga, can I ask Mr Mokgonyana how did Mr Nkosi address you?

MR MOKGONYANA: Me? He addressed me as Peto.

ADV SANDI: How did you address him?

MR MOKGONYANA: Tiger.

ADV SANDI: And Mr Toka, how did you address him?

MR MOKGONYANA: Toka was called when I was introduced to him he was called Aduza.

ADV SANDI: So all of you were using codenames?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well it's true.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Sorry Ms Mtanga, carry on.

MS MTANGA: As a trained member were you trained because you said you received a crash course in handling of weapons, as a trained MK member, what activities were you involved in exactly?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well I was never actually in carrying - I even actually despite the fact that I received training, but I was never involved in any attack.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mokgonyana, I'm just going to ask you for your opinion. At the time of the attacks in 1988 it's been given here as evidence that there was turmoil in Mamelodi, Atteridgeville, there were soldiers in the township and comrades were like operating and involved in a lot of activities and you were a trained MK member and you were still not involved in any activities in the township, is that your evidence?

MR MOKGONYANA: Well I mean as I've said, I mean during that period I remember you know when I was trained, you know there was a problem with actually getting the arms into the country. You know there was a lull actually, I mean at that time you know, there weren't any armed attacks actually in the township because you know of the shortage of arms and ammunition.

MS MTANGA: During which time? When exactly?

MR MOKGONYANA: I mean during '85, actually I remember during the time I was trained, you know, we actually didn't have any arms and ammunition at our disposal during that time.

MS MTANGA: In which year did you have contact with Mr Nkosi and Mr Toka?

MR MOKGONYANA: Mr Nkosi, I've known him before but actually with regard to I mean this issue, we met in 1988 but I've known him before, Mr Nkosi actually.

MS MTANGA: But then you have testified that your involvement in the activities of Mr Nkosi and Mr Toka was to transport weapons for them but there were weapons, that was in 1988 and you were a trained MK member and you still didn't get involved in any activities?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he hasn't been involved, Mr Mtanga. Now you can use that for argument, the probabilities, but if we keep asking, we know he wasn't involved.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that's the end of my questioning.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Joubert do you have any re-examination?

MR JOUBERT: No further questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Jager, do you have any questions for this witness?

ADV DE JAGER: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi?

ADV SANDI: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokgonyana, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

MR MOKGONYANA: Thanks

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: What is your name please?

MRS MALEKA: Tickey.

CHAIRPERSON: And your surname?

MRS MALEKA: Maleka.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Mrs or Ms?

MRS MALEKA: Mrs.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Maleka, in what language would you like to talk?

MRS MALEKA: Tswana.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Maleka, you just want to say something, you don't want to give evidence under oath, you just want to make a statement?

MRS MALEKA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, proceed? Sorry we're just waiting for the man who interprets into Tswana. Yes just for the interpreter's information, this is Mrs Tickey Maleka who is going to be making a statement, so she's not giving evidence. She just wants to say something to us. Please proceed Mrs Maleka. You can start.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, I think he is signalling that you should - they'll help you to switch to number three there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thanks, if you could now proceed Mrs Maleka?

MRS MALEKA: I, Tickey Maleka, I'm staying in Atteridgeville. My address is 60 Marion. That is where the three policemen were killed. I listened to the applications of the applicant applying for amnesty. I understand as a person that I'll be able to do something to a person and ask for forgiveness. I am of the opinion that if somebody asks for forgiveness you must tell the truth, the whole truth. In all the applications and the testimony I've heard I was not satisfied with one applicant, that is Francis Pitsi. I'm not satisfied with his evidence that what he told this Commission, he was not telling the truth.

Firstly I would say when these people came to my place I was entering at my front door, I saw them, then I was surprised by their movements with brown overalls and they were behaving not normally, as if they were hiding themselves. My opinion I was thinking of the liquor squads because we were not allowed to sell liquor. I tried to observe their movements. They stopped at a certain corner. They were seeing that I was looking at them, then they started to shoot, that is why I was saying they started shooting me before they started shooting the police because I'm the first person who saw them and those who were drinking did not see them.

Secondly is that Francis, when he was saying that these policemen were three, there were four policemen including David Madaiwu was present among the police. To say that they went in a certain direction and came back, I did not see them, but when they started shooting, David was there.

The other aspect is that when they left after they finished the operation, they went to George Mathe at Minaka Street, they passed a certain place first before they went to George Mathe where they threw those overalls they were wearing and Francis was injured. They washed his blood and went to another house where in that house where they entered and left their overalls, a certain man came to my house and told me that those boys who came to shoot here, they left their overalls and they washed the blood in my yard.

The other issue is that when he was saying Mr Phenyane, Mr Phenyane was not a usual customer at my place, those people who used to come to my place is David and another one called Les and Freeman and Mope and Mphahlele. Mr Phenyane was not a usual customer. On that day when he - for the first time when he came to my place was the day when he was shot. I just wanted to clear off my chest by saying they were not telling the truth. That is my testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Maleka. Sorry, the lady next to you, does she also wish to make a statement?

MS MTANGA: No she's ...[indistinct]

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, yes thank you, as you said this wasn't evidence, she was merely making a statement here, she hasn't been sworn in. Thank you, you may stand down Mrs Maleka.

MS MTANGA: Another person wishes to say something is Mr Mgwane who was also a victim in this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes? And in which language would you like to make your statement?

MR MGWANE: I will use Tswana.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you just want to make a statement to the Commission?

MR MGWANE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What's your full name please?

MR MGWANE: Alanius Mgwane.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mgwane?

MR MGWANE: I am not living freely like before I was shot. After I was shot I was one of the shop stewards at work. After I was shot the whole of the Atteridgeville community labelled or informed the other people that they've shot the target and together with their informer. I learnt of this after three months after being shot and after I came out of the hospital and at work it happened that the union voted me out because they labelled me an informer because I would inform them to their employers.

Before I was shot I was elected a member of the street committee because of supporting ANC. I am a neighbour of Mrs Maleka at the time, I was drinking alcohol. I used to go there because it was near my place. Unfortunately on that day when we were shot I heard many stories, even now. I'm known as an informer. I am requesting that these people who have attacked me together with others and those who are members of the committee of the shop stewards, I am requesting these people they must try to go back to the community. Even at the time when I was a member of the street community, my head is called Ghost Town, I was informed that I can no longer be a member of the street committee whilst I'm always in the company of the police. What I'm trying to say is that with the injuries I have sustained, as I understand that these people are applying for amnesty and that they were saying they were not directing their bullets at me. We know that in our culture if somebody can label me an informer everybody will just believe that I'm an informer without the proof that I'm one. I believe that I was labelling people because I was shot with the police. I remember after hospital when George was arrested, I don't remember when but I think it's George, they brought him to my place and said "do you know this person?" then I said to the police I don't know this person I've seen him for the first time. I was told by the police that they are responsible for my injuries. Even at the time I was caught I was not able to identify them, the only one whom I can identify was the one who was brought at my place. I don't know as to whether it will be possible that these people who have done this because there is rumour among those people, relatives of those who were killed. I'm requested to come forward because people think that we know that other people were killed because of the information I supplied to the police. That is why I came forward to declare that I did not know anything, I was just a normal person drinking my beer. That is the end of my testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you perhaps I don't know what to suggest other than you perhaps meet with the legal representatives of the applicants who are involved in that incident with a view to maybe speaking to the applicants if you want to. Yes and then of course we know all of us that have been hearing the evidence in this matter that there was nothing whatsoever in the evidence to suggest that you were an informer at all. It only came through from the evidence, all that came through from the evidence was that you were an innocent victim of that incident. Thank you, you may stand down.

MR MOLEFE: Just to add on that in the ...[indistinct] the applicants have requested to meet with the victims and if possible that they will meet with some of them this afternoon. I understand that some of the victims are not as yet ready to meet them but those who are would appreciate meeting with them this afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Molefe, I appreciate that, I've been involved in various hearings where such has happened and my experience is that it's usually been a beneficiary exercise. Mr Joubert?

MR JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, it seems as though he's just outside, while they're looking for him may I just at this juncture, as requested by the Commission just hand up a hand drawn drawing of the vicinity of Juicy Lucy area together with a key there to which I have prepared. I do not profess to be an artist but this is just something which I tried to make it clearer as well as the request in respect of the particulars of the victims I represent. If I may just hand that up?

CHAIRPERSON: Have your colleagues seen the plan, the drawing?

MR JOUBERT: No Mr Chairman, I don't know, if there's any one of them that wish to do so, I'm more than ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if they could see it, just send it down the table and see if they agree rather than there being any objection raised at a later stage?

MR JOUBERT: Mr Chairman I suppose in that case they will probably have to deal with that together with their particular applicants otherwise it's going to be of no - but in the meantime can I at least hand up the particulars of the victims?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Joubert are you ready?

MR JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, I've asked if the Commission will just excuse me, I've asked Advocate Dreyer to stand in for me for a moment, unfortunately I must take Mr Menyani, he's got a doctor's appointment this afternoon. I've promised him the moment he's finished I will take him back so if the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But what is the position with Mr Kulele or Mrs Kulele or whoever?

MR JOUBERT: The instructions are they want to lead evidence, testify in front of the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: They just want to make a statement?

MR JOUBERT: They want to make a statement yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So who is it then Mr Dreyer? Do you know about it?

MR DREYER: Yes Mr Chairman, I've been furnished with the necessary opportunity to assist in the leading of the evidence if the Commission is prepared to accept it on that basis, I'm prepared to do so instead of Mr Joubert.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Joubert. Mr Dreyer?

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, the first person would then be Mr Kulele himself.

CHAIRPERSON: This is just going to be making a statement?

MR DREYER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kulele, what language do you want to make your statement in, what language do you want to use?

MR KULELE: I'll use Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. What's your full name please?

LUCKY MANETTE KULELE: Lucky Manette Kulele.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry what was the second name?

MR KULELE: M -a-n-t-t-e.

CHAIRPERSON: Kulele?

MR KULELE: K-u-l-e-l-e.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dreyer, are you going to lead him or is he just going to make a statement?

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman I've been requested to just lead the evidence by means of a few questions so I think just to facilitate the leading of evidence I will do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.

MR DREYER: Mr Kulele, could you just for the benefit of the Commission state your particulars, your current occupation?

MR KULELE: I'm still a policeman in the South African Police Services. I am stationed at National Logistics as a G.P. clerk, I'm a sergeant.

MR DREYER: During 1998 and on particularly on the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: '88.

MR DREYER: Thank you Mr Chairman. During 1988 and more particularly on the 10th May 1988 were you a member of the South African Police and if so where were you stationed then?

MR KULELE: Silverton Police Station.

MR DREYER: In which division or branch of the South African Police?

MR KULELE: Could you repeat your question Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: In which division or branch of the police was he involved in at Silverton?

MR KULELE: I was at the uniformed branch at Silverton.

MR DREYER: Did any of your duties as such in the capacity that you served at that stage entail anything involving security branch or the work conducted normally by the security branch of the South African Police Force?

MR KULELE: No, I was not involved with the work of the security branch.

MR DREYER: On the 10th May 1988 you were resident at 855 Mamelodi Gardens, is that correct?

MR KULELE: That is correct.

MR DREYER: On that particular day between the hours of 6 o'clock and 6 of the next morning you were on duty, is that correct?

MR KULELE: Yes I was at work.

CHAIRPERSON: At six in the - was that night duty or day duty.

MR DREYER: 18.00 hours in the evening till 6 the next morning, Mr Chairman. Is that correct?

MR KULELE: That is correct.

MR DREYER: A certain incident happened at your house during your absence on duty, is that correct?

MR KULELE: That is correct.

MR DREYER: What do you know about the incident, how did it come to your knowledge, can you briefly explain to the Commission?

MR KULELE: I will explain in this way that on that particular day I left home around 5 p.m., I went to work, I was doing night duty. At dawn, if I'm not mistaken, around 1, past 1 in the morning I was taken by the police van, I was taken to Mamelodi. It was running fast. I enquired about the speed of the car, they did not explain but I could feel that there is something which has happened at home. When we were approaching the entrance in my yard, I met soldiers. They've cordoned off the street which is in my yard. When I alighted the police van, I alighted before it stopped. I saw my main bedroom where I used to sleep, I could see the smoke, I knew that that is where my wife and my child were sleeping. When I entered the yard ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Can you give him a moment please?

MR KULELE: ...[inaudible - no interpretation] so blankets and water and blood. One of my neighbours was busy with a hosepipe. In the bedroom there was nobody. I enquired about what happened. Those who were there told me that the house was bombed. I left there with the police car to my parent's home. I found my parents standing, all of them were crying. They told me that they received information that my house was bombed and it seems my child has died. We ran to the hospital, that is Mamelodi Hospital. When I arrived at the hospital I found my wife on a stretcher naked and she was bleeding. I asked her about the child. Other people told me where my child was. She was on the stretcher. They put a blanket over her. I pulled the blanket, the hand grenade fell on the child so I saw by the marks. I left the hospital and went home.

We went to Delmas Court after a while. In court the people I saw those who were alleged to be accused. Some of them I saw them here. If this Commission allows me to mention their names? The first one that is Bernard Mokgonyana. The second one, that is Toka. I last saw them in Delmas and then we went for the second time. We were informed that one of them escaped from prison, only three of them were left until I received a notice ...[inaudible] here because of that notice.

Some of them who are asking for amnesty before this Commission, I attended school with them especially Rodney Toka, we attended school together and Benny Mokgonyana, I used to stay with him at his place and at different houses and in my relatives, I used to see him every day. When I heard the day that it is him who is responsible or one of those who threw the hand grenade in the house and that person doesn't take responsibility, I don't know where we will get the truth, even where my child is sleeping, I don't know as whether she will sleep peacefully, but we who are behind, we will live without knowing the truth that my child was killed but we don't know who killed her.

Lastly what I want to say, there is nothing which I will do without the truth. I will not forgive anyone. The person who killed or the people who killed my child and who injured my wife and then who damaged my property, that would haunt them for life.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kulele and if you want to do it on behalf of everybody involved with the Truth Commission that we extend our sincerest sympathies and our most hearfelt condolences to your tragic loss. Thank you, you may stand down Mr Kulele.

MR DREYER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've also been requested to lead the evidence of Mrs Kulele which I suspect will be of a shorter duration. I would then call Mrs Kulele.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Kulele, what are your full names please?

ROSEMARY KULELE: Rosemary Kulele.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DREYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mrs Kulele, we have now heard the evidence of your husband in respect of this particular incident so I would immediately want to move to the incident as it occurred on the 10th May 1988 at your residence at that particular time. Can you just at the outset give us an indication of the fact that when this particular instance occurred, with whom were you at that stage, were there any other people in the house except yourself and your late baby?

MRS KULELE: When this attack happened I was sleeping but in my other bedroom there was my cousin. Whilst we were sleeping I heard a loud bang, then I woke up, I took the child quickly from the bed, I took her in the bedroom where my cousin-in-law was sleeping. I opened the door quickly then I shouted and told neighbours that the house was burning. After that the one neighbour came then I told them that I don't believe that my child is still alive.

MR DREYER: Mrs Kulele that particular evening your husband, as a policeman, was working nightshift, is that correct?

MR KULELE: Yes he was doing night duty.

MR DREYER: At what time did he leave in order to perform his duties that night?

MR KULELE: He left around 5 o'clock because he was going to start work at 6 o'clock.

MR DREYER: What type of injuries did you sustain yourself as a result of this particular blast, ma'am?

MR KULELE: I have a horrible scar behind by right shoulder, then some of my left fingers are not working properly.

MR DREYER: Mrs Kulele, we've already established that your baby died in this attack, is there anything in particular that you wish to relate to the Commission in respect of your child itself?

MR KULELE: She was a normal child, I don't think that she deserved to die that way. To will be able to do what these people would be able to do, the killers are occupying high positions now and I had a hope that he would contribute to this society and occupy high position like they do.

MR DREYER: And then lastly, Mrs Kulele, is there anything else that you would want to express in respect of the total incident and your viewpoint or your comment on that?

MR KULELE: May you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, was there anything else she would like to say regarding the incident or her viewpoints as to the incident.

MR KULELE: After this incident my life has changed and especially the injury I received at the back. I feel burdened, I don't feel normal like before. I'm not able to work physically with my hands as I used to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much for that information Mrs Kulele and I'd just like to say how truly sorry we all are with the death of your child and our thoughts are with you. Thank you very much.

MR DREYER: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is what I was requested to do and that concludes the evidence tendered on behalf of those victims for which I appeared in the interim for my learned friend Mr Joubert.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Dreyer, I think then that

concludes all the evidence in this matter, is that correct?

MS MONYANE: Mr Chair, I have just - my client has indicated that she will also like to give a statement, just a little statement. It's Mrs Penyane.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. How many more are we going to have, how many did you say? Mrs Penyane and then?

MS MONYANE: Mr Ndala would also like to be given an opportunity.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we must co-ordinate these because otherwise it becomes an impossible situation and it might even lead to the stopping of it because it's not part of the hearing.

MR MOKONE: Mr Chairman, I am representing two families here and I have two wives also of the deceased policeman, your worship. They have just now indicated to me that they want to say something.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I won't - but they've got to be short statements because you know we allow the victims to make statements because we think it's a good thing but if everyone after hearing the first one wants to speak, it will become impossible. Some hearings that I've been involved in have three, four, five hundred victims and what we normally do is we get a spokesperson to do it, you know, but I'll allow it but you must please say we want - it's got to be short, we're not trying to be hard on this, it's just - otherwise it becomes an impossibility, we won't have to be allowed to allow it at all if it gets out of hand.

ADV DE JAGER: Whose client would this be? Whose client is?

CHAIRPERSON: Who have we got here now.

MS MONYANE: Mr Chairperson, Mr Ndala is one of the victims who were injured in the three policemen attack. Oh sorry

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I mean this - Mr Ndala what are your full names please?

CHARLES NDALA: I am Charles Ndala.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Ndala, what do you wish to say?

MR NDALA: The person, somebody said that I was a target because I was informing to Mr Ndala, that was a lie. I heard Kgotsa saying that I used to be visited by policemen, that was not the truth. There was a child who was staying in that house who left before and went to exile. We were looking for him not knowing where he was. We did not know where to look for him. Then Hlongwane came with the police and say she - the child slept for a long time and the police kept on asking us where this - or her whereabouts. We knew later that he was in Lusaka. After a few months my house was attacked. What was Hlongwane looking for in my house? Hlongwane was looking for this child and they alleged that I was an informer. Why does he lie in this way? He is lying, I was not the target, I was not hosting the police in my house because I was not a police, I was a taxi driver and I didn't concentrate on what was happening then they come before this Commission and say I am a target. This child and he was staying next to my house - where did he get this information that I was a target? I'm not even on the same age with his father. Who told me that I'm a target, why does he lie? He's asking for amnesty and he is lying. You can only forgive the person who tells the truth. He grew up in front of my house and he is the one who is coming to attack my house again. Why? I told his father and his mother that why that child attacked me. He is not telling the truth.

MS MONYANE: Mr Ndala, the Committee only allowed you to - they said they'll give you an opportunity to just make a short statement and you're not contributing to any evidence before the Committee and they would like to give an opportunity to also make statements such as yours.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ndala.

Your full names please?

TAMELA MARY PENYANE: Tamela Mary Penyane.

I'm coming to talk on behalf of Mr Penyane. He was coming from work, he was taken by another policeman to somewhere then 8 o'clock they phoned me and say your husband has died. I was surprised about his death. I woke up, we were not at home at that time because we were busy renovating the

house at that time. I went to inform his family members. When we went to the hospital we found him certified dead. We enquired as to whether where did he die. After some time we were informed to appear in court.

When we arrived in court, at the Magistrate's Court, the case was postponed. When we were supposed to go again we were informed that they escaped. These people who have committed this crime grew just in front of us, I know even their parents because these people knew us, especially Pitsi. My mother-in-law knew them. We were neighbours and I'm surprised that he is stating today that he doesn't know my husband and that my husband was a target, I'm surprised why. It was for the first time my husband left and it was for the first time he entered that house. I don't know maybe he is the one who identified him as a target, now I am in difficulties. That house was not complete because we were renovating. The insurance didn't insure the house. When he was supposed to pay for the instalments, that is when I was mourning. After that I started selling liquor and then I was able to finish that house. I am unemployed. I started selling liquor so that I'll be able to pay the house because there was nowhere where to go. My children were sleeping late and were not able to study well. I don't know what Pitsi is thinking because he is my neighbour. You will suppose that when he's going to reconnoitre the house, seeing that my husband with there, I'm left with problems, I'm not able to take my children to school.

I started working four years back. It is difficult at home, I don't have somebody to help me. How can I forgive them, I cannot forgive Mr Pitsi, my neighbour. Why should I forgive him, he must just forget that he is even telling this Commission a lie, that he doesn't know my husband.

MS MONYANE: I think that will be enough. Let's give other victims an opportunity to also make a statement. We requested short statements. Thank you.

MRS PENYANE: Thank you for this opportunity.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Penyane.

MR MOKONE: Mr Chairman, this is Constable Mope's widow. Ma'am please, we felt going back ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Could we just have your full names please?

ELIZABETH MOKADE MOPE: Elizabeth Mokade Mope.

MR MOKONE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mrs Mope, we felt going back to the whole evidence of this Committee, can you just tell this Committee how the death of your husband has effected you but you must be as brief as possible.

MRS MOPE: Firstly I would say I want to thank this Commission or let me say I thank the Government for forming

this Commission because we felt pain that we knew that there were people who killed my husband and their case would not come to conclusion because they escaped. What hurt me most is that when my husband died we had just arrived in a new house and starting to pay for that house. When I told my children that I was coming before this Commission they were scared, afraid and emotionally hurt and they wanted to be here before this Commission. The people who killed my husband are working and I am suffering, I am unemployed. We'll not be able to forgive them. I will just say I forgive you but in my heart I will not. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Mope.

MR MOKONE: Mr Chairman, the lady is the widow to Constable Mphahele.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names please?

WINNIE LUCILLO MPHAHLELE: Winnie Lucillo Mphahlele.

MR MOKONE: Thank you. Can you explain to this Committee briefly how this, the death of your husband, has effected you and your family?

MRS MPHAHLELE: I want to tell this Commission this that I am pleased that the people who were responsible for the death of a husband expose themselves, identify themselves. We saw them once in Delmas so I see them for the first time. I believe that they did not know me, I did not know them before. They killed my husband when my child was seven years. I have three children. I am working, I am a domestic worker and that the money I receive cannot meet all the means at home.

I'm still young to be a widow and then I'm not even able to take my children to school. At this time I know that they are working and they're dressed in suits and neatly. I want to tell this Committee that I will not be able to forgive these people because I'm still having a scar. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Mphahlele.

MR MOLEFE: I have received a request from the applicants, they have elected a spokesperson and they request an opportunity to address all the victims, just to address them jointly at the moment and they will meet with those who would like to meet with them after.

ADV DE JAGER: They all had an opportunity.

MR MOLEFE: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what we've done in the past, we can do that, we don't have to do that in full session. You know it's better than they meet separately and that can be arranged that they can meet in a room somewhere and speak. So that in fact it can be encouraged to do it, but I don't think you do it in full session.

MR MOLEFE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That concludes the evidence in the matter and all statements, now it's a question of submissions. That plan, Mr Dreyer, has that been agreed upon?

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, Mr Molefe didn't seem to have any problem neither my colleague next to me. I don't know if Mr Mohlaba hasn't indicated if I can just hear from him?

MR MOHLABA: Chair, I'm unable to comment at this stage, I was unfamiliar with this situation as it was before the forming, I only came to Pretoria after the fact but if my colleague ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think what we'll do is, we'll have a very short five minute adjournment. If we could see legal representatives in our chambers as well, in our room as well.

Let's just take a short adjournment.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

 

ON RESUMPTION

MR MOHLABA IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chair. I would like to start Mr Chairman by addressing the - starting with the last aspect of the requirement of the Act for granting of amnesty. More particularly with regard to the incidents involving the killing of the three police officers.

Mr Chairman, I would want to start by addressing the question of full disclosure. One of the applicants here, being the first applicant, Mr Pitsi, elected not to mention the names of the informers who supplied him with information regarding the activities of the three deceased officers. It is submitted Mr Chairman that the names or the identity of the informers is not relevant to the Act or the offence for which they apply for amnesty, namely the killing of these three officers.

The importing of the word "relevant" in section 20(i)c of the Act in the Promotion of the National Unity and Reconciliation Act, in importing that word "relevant" you worship, I shall submit the legislature intended to highlight the facts which need to be disclosed, namely relevant facts only. The facts which the applicant is expected to fully disclose in order to pass the disclosure test are those facts which are relevant to the act of murdering the three police officers or the conspiracy to such murder, I submit, Mr Chairman. The identity of the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We seem to have Bach playing here. Continue?

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair. The identity of the source which furnished the applicant with information regarding the activities of the three deceased officers, Mr Chairman, I submit does not add or remove anything to the killing of the three deceased officers or the conspiracy to such murder. If for instance, Mr Chairman, acquisition of information from another person or soliciting of information from another person constituted a criminal offence and these applicants were approaching this Commission and apply for amnesty for such an offence, namely the soliciting of information or getting information from the informer, Mr Chairman, the disclosure of the identity of the informant will then become relevant. So I submit, Mr Chairman, that the applicants omission to disclose the identity, or rather let me call it an election not to disclose the identity of the informer, would make him to fail the full disclosure test if it was an offence to solicit information or to acquire information from an informer and he was applying for amnesty for such an act.

Mr Chairman, as the applicant is accepting full responsibility for the murder of the three officers, he is of the opinion that the disclosure of the identity of the informers will amount to passing of the buck or passing the blame to the informers and it will be a qualified acceptance of responsibility on his part which the applicant feels is not proper and he further believes that such disclosure will not be in the interest of reconciliation which this Commission seeks to promote. Consequently, I submit Mr Chairman that his election not to disclose more information about, rather the identity of such informers, renders him in no way to fail the test of full disclosure.

Then Mr Chairman, I would then want to move over and just highlight issues which were of common cause before this Committee. It is of common cause that all the applicants here, the nine applicants, were members of the African National Congress and it's military wing, uMkhonto weSizwe. It is further common cause that all applicants were arrested and charged with various offences which included, Mr Chairman, charges of being members or sympathizers of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think the charges all relate to the contents of the applications as well if one looks at the indictment and the applications.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Mr Chairman. And it is further common cause that all applicants belonged to various units of MK which operated in Atteridgeville, Pretoria and Mamelodi area. The commander of those units, the overall commander of these different units was the second applicant, Rodney Toka.

It's further common cause that the second applicant, Mr Toka, did not personally carry out the attack of which he is applying for amnesty. He was however involved in the planning and the authorization of the execution of such activities. Mr Toka confirms having issued various orders to his co-applicants and also confirms that there were in fact members of the ANC and it's military wing uMkhonto weSizwe.

The motive for which these offences were committed, Mr Chairman, I'll want to submit it was political. They wanted to achieve a political objective. I want to deal specifically with the issue of the Juicy Lucy, the so called Juicy Lucy bombing. We have heard the evidence of the victim, one of the victims, Mrs Prinsloo and she confirms that the operatives or the perpetrators of this offence, the people who had planted that bomb, were not known to her and she confirms that after this incident she was not robbed of any of her personal belongings. It is also known that the location where this explosive device was placed, it's not an area which is visited by people of a specific colour or people of a particular gender, it is known that every other person could have an access into this Juicy Lucy shop. The exact location of the explosive device I don't believe it's very material but it is fit that people of all walks of life would access that area. So it is very clear that in placing this device, the person who has placed the device did not have a score to settle with any person, in particular Mrs Prinsloo and her companions at that moment, so it is clear that the applicant did not benefit personally from this activity and this act of placing this device there was to dismantle the apartheid regime and consequently to enhance the - to further the aims of their principal, being the African National Congress and it's military wing.

ADV DE JAGER: The only question there would be if they were to enhance the battle of their principal, was in accordance with the policy of their principal.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Mr Chairman. It has been - it's common cause, it's known also in the submissions of their principal, that civilians were not the target of the African National Congress and throughout the evidence of Mr Toka in particular, he was subjected to a lengthy cross-examination on that aspect. He confirms that the intended target was in fact the personnel of the South African defence force who according to the information gathered by their unit were frequenting that area and they believe that they were the targets aimed at. Mr Chairman may I just ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: A moment ago, the rest doesn't say, that place was visited by people - your own words - from all walks of life?

MR MOHLABA: Certainly Chair, if you'll allow me to continue with my address it will - I would want to address that point specifically that the area where this device was placed, anybody who is not a member of the SANDF would have been injured by that but it would appear that the specific instructions given to the particular operative was not "go out, place this bomb anywhere where you feel you want to place it, regardless of the fact that there could be innocent civilians who could be injured there". It would appear that they were given specific instructions to carry out. The fact that the instructions were not carried out the way the commander has instructed them to do, does not Mr Chairman I submit, changes the motive of the commander who applies for amnesty here.

Mr Chairman, the question of recklessness, or negligence on the part of the operative does not remove the motive which the commander seeks to achieve. It is true that innocent civilians were in fact injured as opposed to the intended target but that does not substitute the motive for which the device was placed there.

So Mr Chairman, I believe that the applicants have satisfied the requirements of the Act insofar as granting of amnesty is concerned, more particularly with regard to the two elements of the political objective and the disclosure aspect.

The third aspect will be the question of the application forms. It appeared Mr Chairman, that most of the application forms of some applicants were not attested by a Commissioner of Oaths. I want to submit Mr Chairman that the evidence which was led with regard to the contents of the application forms remedied the defect and Mr Chairman these forms were submitted I believe during May 1997 and this process of application of amnesty, it is a new process so the applicants relied mainly on the assistance of the TRC officials to who would normally be expected to request further particulars from them, send back the forms to them, ask them to get them commissioned but that I believe, due to their workload on the part of the officials of the TRC, that was not followed and the matter was enrolled for hearing, meaning that it is right for hearing. Had they been given an opportunity they could have clearly remedied that before the fact but I believe there is no prejudice with regard to the aspect of attesting before a Commissioner of Oaths and in conclusion I would submit that they have complied with the requirement of the Act and qualify for amnesty.

Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mohlaba. Mr Molefe, do you have any submissions?

MR MOLEFE: To save time, can I address the Committee from where I am?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly.

MR MOLEFE: Thank you.

MR MOLEFE IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, first and foremost, I'd just like to place it on record that we unfortunately received instructions very late in these applications. I received instructions on Monday afternoon after 5 o'clock actually and I was here the following day, that is on Tuesday, but however we bent backwards in order not to waste this Committee's time and we hope that this Committee will have that in mind when it considers my clients' applications, that it will take into consideration the fact that I only received the instructions very late. I've been advised by my clients that there was some confusion, they were under the impression that their applications will only be heard in February as one of the applicants had been advised like that. Having done that, I would like to now tend to the applications.

First and foremost, I will deal with - or let me say I represent amongst others, Mr George Mathe and I also represented Mr Johannes Maleka as well as Mr Joseph Nkosi. All of them Mr Chairman are members of the African National Congress and were members of the military wing uMkhonto weSizwe. In particular Mr Toka that their actions were part and parcel of their activities of members of uMkhonto weSizwe and that their actions had been sanctioned by the command structures of uMkhonto weSizwe under which they operated.

Mr Chairman, when it comes to Mr George Mathe, he also applied for amnesty in respect of the three policemen who died at Mariana Street and also for the people who were injured in that incident. He has testified that he was under command and as a soldier obeyed the orders of his commanders. His commander at that time, Mr Francis Pitsi has also testified and he has confirmed that indeed Mr Mathe was obeying his orders. I would just like to bring it to the attention of the Commission that even in the submissions that have been submitted by the African National Congress, the African National Congress, that is to say the National Executive of the African National Congress has accepted responsibility for this particular event. It is in one of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I've seen that Mr Molefe. It came up earlier in the proceedings that all the incidents, save for the Juicy Lucy one, were contained in the list.

MR MOLEFE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mathe also applied for amnesty in respect of the blast that took place at Proess Street. He is the operative who placed the bomb under a Renault vehicle and no one was injured in that blast except for the property which was damaged. This particular blast coincided apparently with an important day in the calendar of the National Party and it was also intended as a propaganda action by the African National Congress and it's armed wing uMkhonto weSizwe. I submit that in as far as occurrence as well, Mr Mathe should also be granted indemnity in that it was in furtherance of the political objectives of uMkhonto weSizwe and the African National Congress. Although Mr Mathe did not take part in the blast which took place at the corner of Vermeulen and Andries Street, he has also applied for amnesty in respect of that event in that he was present when the planning took place and that he travelled together with the operative who eventually placed this particular blast at the corner of Andries and Vermeulen Street. It is my submission Mr Chairman that these two blasts could not be in actual fact separated but they served the same purpose, they were exposing the ruling party at that particular time, at the time when the ruling party was supposed to be celebrating on a date when in actual fact - on a date that was very important to the ruling party. It served some propaganda purposes. It is unfortunate that innocent civilians were injured in that particular blast.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Molefe, as far as the Juicy Lucy is concerned and as far as Mr Mathe there is concerned, I can appreciate that he was involved in the conspiracy to - or the planning, but he himself had no intention to injure any person there, he didn't partake anything there but he himself had no intention to injure any person there, he didn't partake in anything there so he didn't commit any offence except for the being involved in the conspiracy, is that correct?

MR MOLEFE: That is correct, that is correct Mr Chairman and I will leave it at that.

Mr Maleka also applied for amnesty in respect of the three murders and as well as for the people who were injured there and he has testified that the only reason why he applied for amnesty in respect of these offences was because there was an omission on his part.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you really need address us on that I mean he said that he heard later about them and he didn't go and report them to the police. What offence would that be? I mean if I've heard that you've punched Mr Makona on the nose and I don't tell the police am I guilty of anything?

MR MOLEFE: Yes, that might be defeating the ends of justice or ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but ones got to actually scratch around to find an offence, one's got to scratch to find an offence.

MR MOLEFE: He also applied for amnesty in respect of that blast which took place at the Atteridgeville municipality offices and it is a known fact that these were structures that had also been identified by the African National Congress as structures that have to be attacked and that it was in furtherance of the aims and the objectives of the African National Congress. He also applied for amnesty in respect of the blast which took place at the Saulsville Railway Station. This particular blast was according to him in support of the national stay away that had been called that was going to start on that particular Monday. It was therefore also in support of political objectives of the African National Congress and uMkhonto weSizwe in supporting the mass democratic movement inside the country at that time.

They also have applied for amnesty in respect of escaping from the Modderbee Prison and fortunately no one was injured in that particular incident and no property was damaged. Now I will ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: As far as escape is concerned nobody actually applied for the offence of escaping but they referred in their applications to the court case and from the court case it was clear from the evidence led at the actual trial of the last three that there was an escape so the facts of the escape was in fact covered in the documents before us.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on. The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible]

MR MOLEFE: That is correct Advocate de Jager and my submission is that it should be taken into consideration that the applicants completed these applications by themselves, they were not assisted by any attorney or any person who may have better knowledge of how to complete these applications and that it should be condoned and that the fact that at least they referred to the case which also referred to the issue of the escape, should be regarded as sufficient and that they should be granted amnesty.

Right, I will then turn to Mr Nkosi. Mr Nkosi basically is applying for amnesty in respect of the incident which happened at Mamelodi where Kulele's child died and where Kulele's wife was injured. I have to also put it on record at this stage that in the submissions by the African National Congress, this particular event is also listed and the African National Congress has accepted responsibility for the particular offence and I have also to place it on record that the applicant, as well as his commander, agree that a mistake, a terrible mistake happened in respect of this operation and that it was not the intention of the organisation to kill an innocent child and injure a women and that the intended target actually was Mr Kulele who was a policeman at that particular time.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Molefe, his commander said that he was an operative, that he was instructed to carry out the deed. He denies that.

MR MOLEFE: I agree and I concede that the commander, Mr Toka, has ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you get into - there's actually three contradictions, two at least. You've got the contradiction between Benny the operative, the alleged operative, let me put it that way and Mr Nkosi. Mr Nkosi said he was present when Benny was given the instruction to carry it out and later, some months later, Benny told him that he had done it. Benny denies that, so that's contradiction number one and then the other contradiction is between Mr Toka and Mr Nkosi. Mr Toka says Benny and Mr Nkosi were the persons who carried it out whereas your client says no, he wasn't involved at all except that he was present when the planning was done.

MR MOLEFE: I will first deal with the contradictions or perceived contradictions between the applicant and Mr Toka. Mr Toka in his evidence did not or he said that the operatives who carried out this particular action were Mr Nkosi as well as Benny. Now I don't remember anything in the evidence of Mr Toka which said that the person who threw the hand grenade ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No there wasn't any evidence, Mr Toka didn't identify the person who threw the hand grenade, he didn't say either of them, he just said that the operatives, the people who were involved in that incident were Messrs Nkosi and Bonyana I think the name was, Benny.

MR MOLEFE: That is correct and Mr Nkosi has accepted responsibility in respect of this particular offence. He has said that he is also equally to blame, he accepts responsibility. However, he has denied that he is in actual fact the person who threw the hand grenade into Kulele's house. He advanced his reasons why, he said that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Denies that he was there at all.

MR MOLEFE: That is correct, he denies that he was there on the day when this incident took place, he was not at that scene. He has advanced his reasons as to why he takes responsibility, equal responsibility for this particular offence in that he was Mr Mokgonyana's commander and that he is the one who introduced Mr Mokgonyana to Mr Toka and then as a result of this contact that eventually this action took place. There is mention in Mr Toka's evidence of a certain gentleman by the name of Webster whose whereabouts are presently not known.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems from the evidence, we don't know but he's probably dead if - that's what we've heard.

MR MOLEFE: That is correct and from the evidence it appears that he in actual fact crossed sides in that he apparently became an Askari. This particular person apparently also had a lot to do with this particular incident in that he's the one who provided Mr Toka with the intelligence report. He's the one apparently was responsible for the reconnaissance of Mr Kulele's house and it is important to note that eventually this person apparently became an Askari. The contradictions between Mr Nkosi and Mr Mokgonyana, Mr Mokgonyana apparently has denied that he was in the same unit as Mr Nkosi but from his evidence it's clear that he definitely was carrying out instructions from uMkhonto weSizwe and he was carrying those instructions out in cahoots with Mr Nkosi. He did not carry out those instructions for instance providing transport to members of uMkhonto weSizwe, transporting arms and so forth, he wouldn't have done that as a civilian, it's improbable that he did that as just somebody who did not know what he was doing and I submit that Mr Mokgonyana is just trying to save his skin by denying all knowledge of Mr Nkosi or of the discussions that may have take place in between Mr Nkosi and himself as well as Mr Toka. It is my submission that Mr Nkosi disclosed everything that he was supposed to disclose in respect of this particular offence, that his disclosure was full and that he too should be granted amnesty in respect of this particular offence.

I would also like to refer the Committee to some of the submissions made by the African National Congress to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and I will just quote just briefly from them so that maybe the context of some of the statements should be understood. I will start with the first submission made by the African National Congress, dated August 1996, at page 51 and that will now be on the right hand side -no, no, I think page 52, that's correct. Yes, where Oliver Tambo issues the following statement:

"I will summarise the position taken by the conference in the ...[indistinct]"

He's explaining now the position taken at Thabwe.

"That the struggle must be intensified at all costs. Over the past nine to ten months at the very least there have been many soft targets hit by the enemy. Nearly 500 people have now died in that period, that works to about 50 per month. Massacred, shot down, killed secretly. All those were very, very soft targets. They belong to the sphere of the intensification of the struggle. What we have seen in places like the Eastern Cape is that escalations means everybody. That distinction between hard and soft targets is going to disappear in an intensified confrontation in an escalating conflict."

And on the right hand side on page 52: ...[intervention]

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Molefe, as I recall when I read that document I think about two years back, do they not later explain that there was deliberate action on their part to phase out the distinction between the two, so called soft targets and hard targets?

MR MOLEFE: That is so but I think the essence of what Oliver Tambo said is that we have now at that stage entered a new terrain and that the distinction between hard and soft targets was slowly going to disappear as the struggle intensified.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Molefe I think we've had that before us but if you could kindly give us the references, the page references to all the extracts you'll refer to and we could have a look at it?

MR MOLEFE: Maybe I should just not necessarily read all the extracts but on page 52 as well, there is reference to an ANC official pamphlet titled "Take the Struggle to the White Areas" and that targets were identified and this is very important

"As the racist army, police..."

police in this particular instance is not even qualified, just "police".

"...death squads, agents and stooges in our midst"

and I will also like to refer to page 58 at paragraph 6.2.4. I also don't think it's necessary that I should read the whole paragraph but it deals with conduct of/or civil casualties and my submission in this respect is that African National Congress realised that there will be civilian casualties as and when some operations are carried and that it would be difficult to altogether avoid civil casualties. Now in as far as the forms are concerned, I have read Section 18 of the Act which says that the applicants must complete an application in the prescribed form and the prescribed apparently needs that it must attested before a Commissioner of Oaths. Section 19 says that:

"Upon receipt of any application for amnesty, the Committee may return the application to the applicant and give such directions in respect of the completion and submission of the application as may be necessary or request the applicant to provide such further particulars as may deem necessary."

I suppose the legislature had in mind here applicants who are not sophisticated, who would not know or who would not for instance complete the forms properly and that they should be given assistance by the Committee by referring the form back and are given such directions as may be necessary in the completion of the forms and none of the applicants that I represent had their forms sent back but it is my submission that they have testified under oath and confirmed what is in their applications and the fact that they've testified under oath remedies the shortfall that was in their applications and the fact that it was not before a Commissioner of Oaths should be condoned.

That is all Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Molefe.

Do you want to continue now or do you want to continue tomorrow morning?

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, I would prefer continuing tomorrow in view of my own commitments that I have but I would also like to do some - on a certain aspect which has now come to light in the address of my learned friend which I would just like to follow up?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Joubert?

MR JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, I don't know, the other colleagues, I've just discussed with Advocate Dreyer, we can even start tomorrow morning at 8 o'clock, we don't have an objection to an early start.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes unfortunately tomorrow you can only sit until 1 o'clock, you can't sit later than 1, I unfortunately have to catch an aeroplane and I don't have the option in the destination I'm going to change the flight. There's only one flight and I miss it then I'm stranded for the weekend sort of thing.

MR JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, as far as I'm concerned I have no foreseeability that we won't be able to finish before 1.

CHAIRPERSON: If we start at 9 do you think we'll finish at 1?

MR JOUBERT: I would submit so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes alright then thank you. We'll then adjourn now and we'll continue with the argument at 9 o'clock tomorrow, between 9 and 1 but hopefully we should finish. I must say the argument up to now has taken - has gone through quite quickly.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS