ON RESUMPTION
MS LOCKHAT: The next applicant is Mr Robey.
MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, Mr Robey's application appears on pages 1 - 6 of Bundle 4.
ADV DE JAGER: English or Afrikaans speaking?
MR ROBEY: English speaking.
N.J. ROBEY: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS: Mr Robey, during 1986 you were working under the command of Commandant Naude at that time?
MR ROBEY: That is correct.
MR WESSELS: You have heard the evidence that he gave in regard to the Ribeiro incident, is that correct?
MR ROBEY: I heard that, yes.
MR WESSELS: And he mentioned that you were involved in this operation?
MR ROBEY: That is affirmative, yes.
MR WESSELS: Can you just tell the Commission to what extent you were involved and what you did?
MR ROBEY: Well, I was part of the planning and the execution of the operation.
MR WESSELS: Yes, to what extent? What exactly were your functions and what did you do?
MR ROBEY: Well, I had to pick up the operators, I had to brief them and then conduct the reconnaissance of the subject and the carrying out of the whole phase from the time that the operators went in to go and do the execution of the operation, until the time that they came back to me.
MR WESSELS: Yes. Now where did you pick them up?
MR ROBEY: At Special Forces HQ.
MR WESSELS: And what names were you given, under what names would they go under?
MR ROBEY: There was two chaps. The first one was John or Gao Pinta.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can you spell those names for me please.
MR ROBEY: John Pinta or Gao, I wouldn't know the Portuguese spelling of Gao, but I knew him as John, Johnny.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and the surname was?
MR ROBEY: Pinta.
CHAIRPERSON: Pinta?
MR ROBEY: I would assume so Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And the other?
MR ROBEY: Louis da Silva.
MR WESSELS: Are these the names that they gave to you?
MR ROBEY: That is affirmative.
MR WESSELS: What name did you give them? Under what name did you go?
MR ROBEY: My name was Lionel Kirby.
MR WESSELS: Did you give them the name of Lionel Kirby?
MR ROBEY: Yes.
MR WESSELS: Why did you give them that name?
MR ROBEY: Because that was my operational name.
MR WESSELS: Did you operate under false names at that time?
MR ROBEY: That is affirmative, yes.
MR WESSELS: Do you know whether they were using their real names or whether they were using false names?
MR ROBEY: I assume that they were using their real names.
MR WESSELS: Very well, you picked them up and what did you then do with them?
MR ROBEY: From the pick up, I then took them to the rear of Special Forces HQ and I briefed them on the subject of the target, and explained exactly what was the procedure going to be for the next couple of days, however long this operation was going to take.
I then told them that we have identified two hotels where they can go and stay in, they must make a decision which one they want to go and stay in. I handed them over R2 000 and also my cell, not cell, my bleeper number.
MR WESSELS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You gave each one of them R2 000 or ...
MR ROBEY: No, R2 000 between the two.
MR WESSELS: Yes?
MR ROBEY: I then took them and dropped them off at the Central Station here in Pretoria and I showed them the Victoria Hotel and down the road, the Manhattan Hotel.
I told them to book into one of the hotels and contact me on my bleeper and tell me which hotel they were staying in.
Thereafter I also said that they had to meet me the following morning, at eight o'clock, at the point where I dropped them off at the station.
CHAIRPERSON: Which hotel did they select?
MR ROBEY: They ended up staying at the Manhattan.
MR WESSELS: Yes?
MR ROBEY: The following morning, eight o'clock, I then picked them up. This was done in a blue Golf vehicle and I then showed them the route out to Mamelodi, along Church Street and to the turn off, which was there by the Silverton/Mamelodi Road, and then drove them to where the RV would be with me, once the operation was completed, which was just down the road.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Showed them what, the RV?
MR ROBEY: The rendezvous, sorry, the rendezvous.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes.
MR ROBEY: The rendezvous point.
MR WESSELS: Yes?
MR ROBEY: Thereafter the rendezvous point was known to them, and we rode the route backwards and forwards, six or more times, from the hotel to the rendezvous point that particular day.
CHAIRPERSON: May I just enquire, what language did they speak?
MR ROBEY: They spoke English with me, Mr Chairman, with an accent.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.
MR ROBEY: During, well prior, I omitted one thing, prior to that, on the morning of the second day, we had already propositioned a red Opel vehicle at the Palm Hotel which was going to be their vehicle, that there was done by Mr Vlietstra.
After this riding backwards and forwards the route, at late afternoon, I handed the vehicle to them and told them then to ride the route, back to town, back to the hotel.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR ROBEY: Which they did do, they drove it back, I was following them to make sure that there was no hiccups in the route, or the route that I had been driving with them the whole time.
MR WESSELS: Yes?
CHAIRPERSON: Who were you accompanied by?
MR ROBEY: Myself Mr Chairman.
MR WESSELS: So you were alone at that stage?
MR ROBEY: Affirmative.
MR WESSELS: Yes, and after that?
MR ROBEY: Well the morning of the third day, met them again at the station where we always met, rode the route and then from there, when we got to the meeting place, or the RV, they then proceeded to ride and get to know the Mamelodi, or the area that they were supposed to know, which was Dr Ribeiro's house and his surgery, familiarise themselves with the area there, which they did do.
That they did the whole day.
CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ribeiro's house and surgery, are they one complex?
MR ROBEY: No, they were two different complexes.
CHAIRPERSON: They were some distance apart, or were they close to each other?
MR ROBEY: They were some distance apart, yes, Mr Chairman.
ADV DE JAGER: But on the same erf or on different erfs?
MR ROBEY: No, different locations.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR WESSELS: Yes?
MR ROBEY: They then came back and they were quite happy with the area and the target areas, etc. Again I followed them back to the station area where they went back to the hotel.
I then got hold of Mr Naude and said that the chaps know the area, they have familiarised themselves with it, there is no hiccups to and fro, they know the route, etc, so everything is all right from our side.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR ROBEY: On the fourth day Mr Naude phoned me to say that it's - carry on with the operation. It was roundabout half past eleven in the morning, but we must wait until in the afternoon, from four o'clock onwards, because that is when Dr Ribeiro and his wife, would return home after hours, after work.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR ROBEY: From there I went and got the pistols that were to be used in the operation, two Colt 45's with silencers. I put them in a duffelbag with towels, etc over it.
I picked up Mr Vlietstra in my vehicle, which was a Landrover and then went to the Schoeman Street parking garage where I used to park the blue Golf the whole time, after every day's work, I used to go and park the blue Golf and go home in my own vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR ROBEY: We got there at about - I first phoned the chaps to meet me at the station. That I made arrangements for at half past three. I went and parked the car a distance away from the station because Mr Vlietstra was in the vehicle with me. I then walked up to the station area with the duffelbag with the weapons inside, handed it over to them and said that the operation, obviously, is on the go. They must carry on the route that we have chosen and watched them take off.
When I saw them disappear around the corner, I went back to my Landrover with Mr Vlietstra, and drove down to Schoeman Street, the parking garage where I parked my vehicle and at this time, it must have been quarter past four, I parked the Landrover and went to the Golf and unfortunately the Golf wouldn't start. After trying for 10, 15 minutes, I knew I was running out of time, so I got into the Landrover and proceeded to the Palm Hotel where the meeting place was with Mr Naude and the Security Police.
When I got there, I told them the problem with reference to the Golf, it wouldn't start, etc. It was critical ... (tape ends) ... cancelling, aborting the operation, so I was told to carry on with the Landrover to the RV point, which I did do.
I waited at the RV point or the meeting place until such time that the chaps had finished the operation, and came back. Later on, I can't exactly remember timings, their vehicle pulled in front of mine, which was the Landrover, so I kept on standing outside, knowing that these chaps wouldn't recognise the vehicle. They pulled in ahead of us and they got out of the vehicle, left the weapons, etc in their vehicle, they jumped into the Landrover. Mr Vlietstra climbed into the red vehicle, the Kadet or Opel vehicle and he drove off and I continued driving off, back into town, the route that we had always driven.
Except when we got into town, I drove around a bit, making sure that no one had followed us, etc. I dropped them off at the station, telling them that they must pay their hotel bills and be ready for a pick up from me in the morning, the following day, at five o'clock, so that I could drop them off, back at Special Forces HQ and their return to Ndangwa.
CHAIRPERSON: What time was it when they had returned from completing the operation?
MR ROBEY: Mr Chairman, it must have been quarter past six, six o'clock to quarter past six, somewhere around there.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.
MR WESSELS: Did you then pick them up the following morning at five o'clock?
MR ROBEY: That is affirmative, I picked them up the next morning at five o'clock and drove them through to Special Forces HQ, dropped them off and I then proceeded back to the office.
MR WESSELS: Did you ever see them again or hear of them again?
MR ROBEY: No, never.
MR WESSELS: Did they report to you what had happened at the scene?
MR ROBEY: They said they had a bit of difficulty when the incident took place, when the shooting started. A lot of people tried to surround them, they then, when they were running back to the vehicle, they fired a couple of shots in the air because there was a group of people trying to surround them.
When they did that, everyone like got out of the way, they got in their vehicle and skedaddle out of there quite fast.
MR WESSELS: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, cross-examination? Mr Powe?
MR VISSER: Visser, Mr Chairman, none by myself, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see, right.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, may I be permitted one question which I should really have put to Commandant Naude and perhaps Mr Robey, you are not in a position to answer that, is there a specific reason why two operators were used instead of one?
MR ROBEY: Well, in Special Forces you do have small teams operating, and as they have in bush warfare, whatever warfare, you've always got to have a backup. Two is the minimum, one person going in alone, is total madness. Somebody could have come out, shot him, or kill a person, at least you've got a backup.
MR WESSELS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR DU PLESSIS: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS
MR GROBLER: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GROBLER
CHAIRPERSON: On behalf of the family?
MR POWE: The Evidence Leader has indicated she will go first, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I am suggesting that you carry on first. The Evidence Leader is not as vitally concerned as you are about this matter.
MR POWE: Thank you Chairperson. I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR POWE
CHAIRPERSON: That is very neat footwork.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Mr Robey, how come you knew the area so well? How come you knew the Mamelodi, and Ribeiro's house so well?
MR ROBEY: Well, prior to this whole operation going off, I went with Mr Naude to Brigadier Cronje's office, we received a folder. I then studied the folder and in that folder, was an aerial map of the area, a photograph of Mr and Mrs Ribeiro. There was a street plan, map and a foolscap page which was about three quarters written of a brief history of them, and their routine.
After studying the map and working on the ground with the map, and the aerial photograph, you get to know the area.
MS LOCKHAT: Okay. I believe you had a conversation ...
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Ms Lockhat before you proceed on this aspect of his evidence. You only knew the area from you studying the aerial photographs and what was contained in the file?
MR ROBEY: That is affirmative, yes.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You were never taken there by Captain Hechter at any stage?
MR ROBEY: Never taken there. The only way that I did get to know that area, was by actually driving that route.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. And had Mr Naude been taken to the Ribeiro's house by Mr Hechter to your knowledge?
MR ROBEY: No, not to my knowledge, not at all.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: As far as you are aware, he was also not familiar with where the Ribeiro's were staying?
MR ROBEY: Are you talking about Mr Naude?
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes?
MR ROBEY: I don't think that Mr Naude would have known that area, because we never worked there before.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So you wouldn't agree with any evidence which suggested that you were taken either, either you or Mr Naude were taken to the Ribeiro's house by Mr Hechter?
MR ROBEY: Well, I was never taken there, never.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.
MS LOCKHAT: When the operatives arrived, did you introduce them to Naude?
MR ROBEY: Negative Mr Chairman.
MS LOCKHAT: You said you contacted Naude and said that, he said that you should wait until four o'clock to actually start the operation, because the Ribeiro's would come home later, at that time. How come he knew that specific detail?
MR ROBEY: Well, obviously work in any instance, finishes at five o'clock, and also as I said earlier on, in that file that we got, was a routine prior to us even knowing the routine that we watched.
MS LOCKHAT: Was Mr Naude informed of this routine, did he receive that specific aspects relating to the file, regarding that?
MR ROBEY: No, because it didn't apply to him, the routine was monitored by us and their ways, they knew it.
MS LOCKHAT: So you are basically saying that it is just common knowledge that he knew that they would return from work after four o'clock?
MR ROBEY: He didn't say specifically four o'clock, he mentioned the fact after four o'clock, the operation must continue.
MS LOCKHAT: Tell me, were your instructions - what were your instructions, was it to kill Dr Ribeiro or both parties?
MR ROBEY: Both parties were to be killed.
MS LOCKHAT: Who gave you this instruction?
MR ROBEY: My instructions came from Mr Naude.
MS LOCKHAT: Tell me, was that the only weapons you had given them?
MR ROBEY: That is affirmative Mr Chairman.
MS LOCKHAT: And the two operatives, just confirm, that is not their false names, but that is actually their real names, their official names?
MR ROBEY: I would not know, I wouldn't question them on that. I introduced myself as Lionel Kirby and they introduced themselves.
MS LOCKHAT: Did you work with them previously?
MR ROBEY: Never. Never seen them before and never worked with them before.
MS LOCKHAT: Just seemed a bit familiar when you said you always referred to the one as Johnny and it just seemed like a familiar ...
MR ROBEY: No, it was Gao, the word Gao. It was not a familiar word or a name, around here, so I referred to him as John, Johnny.
MS LOCKHAT: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Robey, you were given a file by your immediate Commander, Mr Naude, to study in preparation of the execution of the elimination of the Ribeiro's?
MR ROBEY: We went to Brigadier Cronje's office with Mr Hechter also being there, we came out with a file. Mr Naude had a brief look at it, and then handed it over to me, which I then in depth studied.
It was not a file as such, it was a folder.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. Can you recall what was contained in that file?
MR ROBEY: In the folder was an aerial map of Mamelodi, a road, street plan map of Mamelodi, the position of their house and also of the surgery and then also as I said, a foolscap page which was about three quarters written of their routine and a brief outline of what their activities were.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And what was the brief outline of their activities?
MR ROBEY: That they had helped the ANC cadres to and fro, to and from Swaziland, that they helped them monetary wise, that they had helped them with medical wise.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was there no mention of the fact that they had conducted training themselves?
MR ROBEY: I can't recall that, no Mr Chairman.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You were not Mr Naude, had a careful study of that folder, is it not so?
MR ROBEY: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You were instructed by Mr Naude to make a careful study of the folder?
MR ROBEY: Yes, I was told.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And it was very important for you to ascertain the activities the Ribeiro's were engaged in, is it not so?
MR ROBEY: That is so, yes.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Would you not remember whether they were involved in the training of activists if you had made such a careful study?
MR ROBEY: Well, as I said the folder or this summary was a very, very brief summary. Who had written it, where it came from, I did not know, and in that was the fact that they were taking people to and from Swaziland for training, bringing back trained people, personnel, that they were giving medical aid to wounded people there in Mamelodi, that they were giving them monetary support, etc.
Reference that and the video story, I can't remember reading that.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. From the time that you were instructed by Mr Naude to study the file, and the time that you picked up the two operatives from Namibia, how long would you estimate that took you in terms of days, in terms of weeks?
MR ROBEY: It was days, it wasn't weeks, no, not at all.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, how long would you say?
MR ROBEY: Five, six days Mr Chairman.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: When the operatives gave you a report after executing the operation, what details did they give you? You have not in your evidence in chief given us sufficient details to enable us to be in the picture of what they told you had happened with regard to how the shooting was carried out, where the Ribeiro's were shot, how many times they were shot? Would you please give us those details?
MR ROBEY: As I said, they monitored the house, they went to the house and knocked on the door. They gained entrance and when they saw these chaps apparently pull their pistols, then they started screaming.
They then fired, how many shots were fired, I do not know, because as I said when they came back, and the vehicles were, they had changed vehicles and Mr Vlietstra took the vehicle, with their weapons in it, that was the last time I saw that vehicle and the weapons. I couldn't check how many shots had been fired, but they did shoot quite a number of shots and as I said, on their escape out, a lot of people tried to corner them, and they did shoot a couple of more shots in the air to make an escape.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: How are you able to know that quite a number of shots were fired if this information was not ...
MR ROBEY: That is what they told me, that is what they told me Mr Chairman.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: They did not indicate the number?
MR ROBEY: The number, the exact number, no they did not.
MR ROBEY: They just said quite a number of shots?
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Did they indicate whether they were sure at the time of their departure, if the Ribeiro's had died?
MR ROBEY: Well, they did mention that they saw them falling down and the fact that they were down, and with all the noise and that going on, they just got out as soon as possible. But with the weapons that they were using, 45, it is quite a high impact weapon.
I wouldn't say many shots would need to kill a person.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, did they give an indication on which part of their bodies they were shot?
MR ROBEY: Chest area.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Is that what they told you?
MR ROBEY: Basically yes.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Are you in a position to recall whether you were present in a meeting wherein Brigadier Cronje approved of the elimination of Dr Ribeiro and Mrs Ribeiro?
MR ROBEY: No, Mr Chairman, I was never in such a meeting. The only meeting, or not meeting, the only time that I ever saw Brigadier Cronje was that day when I went up there with Mr Naude to go and get this folder.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. And do you know what discussion went on at that meeting?
MR ROBEY: No, I do not know Mr Chairman.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Only a folder was given to you and Mr Naude, no discussion took place?
MR ROBEY: Not at that time, no.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And definitely not with regard to the targeting or the elimination of the Ribeiro's?
MR ROBEY: No, not at that time.
JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, may I ask a question with regard to the questions Judge Khampepe asked?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS: Mr Robey, when you got the folder, were you required to check on the activist activities of the Ribeiro's, or were you only required to check on their movements?
MR ROBEY: Just the movement Mr Chairman.
MR WESSELS: And was that to be able to plan the operation?
MR ROBEY: That is affirmative.
MR WESSELS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Visser on record, I am afraid there is an aspect which I neglected to put to the witness, may I ask your permission to deal with it?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do Mr Visser.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Robey, were you ever accosted by the Police after this incident, arrested, charged or whatever?
MR ROBEY: Yes, I was.
MR VISSER: Can you just give us some information as to what happened?
MR ROBEY: I do not know the Officers that arrested me, but we went to the Mamelodi police station, where I was formally arrested and I had to put in a statement, which of course I did do, which was totally false.
MR VISSER: Yes. Yes, I assumed so. But was the arrest for murder or for what?
MR ROBEY: It was for the murder of Dr and Mrs Ribeiro .
MR VISSER: Were you ever told or did you ever discover how the Police came to realise that you might be involved?
MR ROBEY: Yes it was, it was due to the incident with the vehicles that I was talking about earlier on. As I said unfortunately I had to use my Landrover, and that was picked up and they then came around to my place.
MR VISSER: I was given to understand from the evidence of Brigadier Cronje, that the number plate, the registration number of the Landrover was traced back to Special Forces or the Defence Force?
MR ROBEY: No, back to me.
MR VISSER: Back to you personally?
MR ROBEY: Yes, because it was, yes, it was in my name.
MR VISSER: It was in your name and that is how they got to you?
MR ROBEY: The number plate was KYK4990.
MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman. I am sorry Mr Chairman, I am sorry, what happened after your arrest? Was there any hearing held?
MR ROBEY: Yes, there was a court case.
MR VISSER: Was it an inquest or was it a criminal case against you?
MR ROBEY: I am sure it was an inquest.
MR VISSER: Yes. And you were absolved from all liability?
MR ROBEY: That is affirmative.
MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I am in a similar position, may I put just one question to the witness please?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Robey, do you have any idea who compiled the folder that you were given?
MR ROBEY: Negative, not at all.
MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, you are excused, thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED
