ON RESUMPTION
MR MEINTJIES: Mr Chairman, Roelf Meintjies on record. Mr Van Jaarsveld is Afrikaans speaking, and you will find his application on page 66 of Bundle 4, more specifically on the Ribeiro matter, on page 72 where it is identified as "Voorval 4".
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
JAKOB JAN HENDRIK VAN JAARSVELD: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MEINTJIES: Mr Chairman, if you will bear with me for two minutes, so that I can just refer the applicant to the political background.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MEINTJIES: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Van Jaarsveld, as part of your amnesty application in this and other matters, you have given a breakdown of the ANC's activities?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: That is correct.
MR MEINTJIES: That is Annexure B to your application.
MR VAN JAARSVELD: That is correct.
MR MEINTJIES: Furthermore you have given the strategy of the Northern Transvaal Joint Management System against the United Democratic Front as Annexure C to your amnesty application?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: That is correct.
MR MEINTJIES: You know about the evidence of Johan van der Merwe before the Amnesty Committee in the amnesty application of the Cronje 5?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Yes, that is correct.
MR MEINTJIES: Mr Chairman, that can be found in Bundle 2(A), pages 55 - 117.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MEINTJIES: You have made yourself aware of Cronje's evidence before the Amnesty Committee in the amnesty application of the Cronje 5?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Yes, that is correct.
MR MEINTJIES: And with special regard to the general background against which police activity had to be considered?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: That is correct.
MR MEINTJIES: Mr Chairman, that can be found in Bundle 2(A), pages 123 - 180.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MEINTJIES: The climate and background as sketched in the affidavits of Gen Van der Merwe and Brigadier Cronje, is contained in the decision of the Amnesty Committee which is on page 106 and you are aware of this?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Yes.
MR MEINTJIES: Would you agree with me that this is the background against which your actions in this incident and other incidents, with regard to which you are applying for amnesty, must be seen?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Yes, that is correct.
MR MEINTJIES: The next aspect which we must attend to Mr Van Jaarsveld, is your history with the South African Police. Could you explain that to us?
ADV DE JAGER: If you could just tell us that it appears on such and such a page and confirm it, then we would be satisfied, because I am not interested in where people were born or which schools they attended.
I want to know what they did in this matter.
MR MEINTJIES: Mr Van Jaarsveld, I will then take you to the afternoon of the day upon which the Ribeiro's.
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Mr Chairperson, on that particular phone I was on duty at the Pretoria Security Branch. During that afternoon, Jacques Hechter who worked with me, approached me and told me that I should switch on my radio and keep it switched on because an operation with regard to the Ribeiro's, would take place.
I asked him what my duties were, upon which he responded that I should see to it that I arrive at the scene quickly and see to it that everything at the scene is correct. I would thus have to act as a sweeper.
MR MEINTJIES: Could you just pause there for a moment please.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR MEINTJIES: How did you regard your duties as a sweeper?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: It was clear as Gen Joubert has just testified that my function was to ensure that should anything go wrong, I would be on the scene immediately and that I should take the necessary action to prevent that any evidence which would point directly at the Defence Force and the Police's involvement in the matter, be removed.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR MEINTJIES: Did Captain Hechter then contact you during the course of that day?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Later on that same day, late afternoon, I was at home. Jacques Hechter contacted me by radio and informed me that Dr Ribeiro and his wife had been shot. He told me that I should get to the house, that means Ribeiro's house.
He also said that I should get to the scene as quickly as possible and contact the Murder and Robbery Unit.
MR MEINTJIES: What did you then do Mr Van Jaarsveld?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Philip Coetzee and I, who at that stage was at my house, we had just cracked open a few beers and lit a fire, we were standing around the fire and chatting. I told him that he should go with me. We left immediately and went directly to the Ribeiro's' house.
When I arrived on the scene, I saw that I was the only policeman, or the first policeman that was present. I parked in front of the gates and left Mr Coetzee at the vehicle. I was afraid that the vehicle would be damaged.
I entered the premises through the courtyard where I saw pools of blood. The deceased had already been removed from the scene. I saw that there were 9mm bullet shells on the scene. It was strange to me because my information was that a 357 revolver would have been used.
I then thought that if the shells were left on the scene, it would be by mistake and I left it there.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do proceed.
MR MEINTJIES: Was anybody else on the scene when you arrived there?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: No, not that I can recall.
ADV DE JAGER: Were there no other people there or were there no other Police Officers there?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: No, there were no other Police Officers there, however, there was a crowd of people at the gate and behind Dr Ribeiro's house.
MR MEINTJIES: What was your action thereafter?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: I immediately contacted Murder and Robbery, or I had them contacted. Later Boet du Bruyn and Piet Delport from Murder and Robbery arrived on the scene.
They took over the scene from me. After that, many other policemen arrived at the scene, as well as the local uniform police of the Mamelodi police station.
The crowd was in uproar, it was quite a big crowd and I left the scene.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR MEINTJIES: Mr Van Jaarsveld, did you execute any duties as a sweeper on the scene?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: No.
MR MEINTJIES: Later, during discussions with Captain Jacques Hechter, you came to know more about the incident?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: That is correct.
MR MEINTJIES: Would you refer us to that?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: That is correct. Captain Hechter later told me during discussions that one John Moore led the operation.
MR MEINTJIES: Could you please pause for a moment there. You used the name John Moore, as it appears in your affidavit, is that indeed the correct name?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: No Chairperson, the name which is correct is Charl Naude, but the name John Moore, is only known to me as somebody who was a Military Attaché in Taiwan in 1981. I met him there during a course.
MR MEINTJIES: So he was definitely not involved in this incident?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: No, not John Moore.
ADV DE JAGER: Are you sure he was still abroad at that stage?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Chairperson, no, I don't believe that he would have been abroad. I think that he was back in the country at that stage.
MR MEINTJIES: Thank you Chairperson. Could you tell me what further information you received surrounding the incident, from Captain Hechter?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Captain Hechter also mentioned that two black men, allegedly Mozambicans and this was said because they were Portuguese speaking, apparently Mozambicans, had committed the murders.
Jacques Hechter was very upset because Noel Robey used his Landrover vehicle to participate in the operation, and that he had apparently used the correct registration plates. He had also received the weapon and the vehicle back from the two blacks at Samcor, with the result that someone would have written down his registration number.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR MEINTJIES: And that would then be the entire incident as you experienced it?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Yes, that is correct.
MR MEINTJIES: Can I just clear up three specific matters in order to achieve clarity for the Committee.
In the evidence of Messrs Naude and Robey, they refer to the fact that Colt 45 pistols were used. In the light of your evidence that 9mm shells were found, would you reject their evidence?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: No, I would like to state it clearly that I am not an expert with regard to weaponry and I never have been, and that the difference between a 9mm shell and a 45 shell would not be easily noticeable. I did not pick up the things and examine them, so I would not be able to have an opinion about it.
MR MEINTJIES: Then I would like to refer you to the record of the amnesty application of the Cronje 5, and specifically page 465 of Bundle 2(E).
Right at the bottom of this page, Judge Wilson interrupted Captain Hechter and said the following - yes, you then go on and say, Captain Van Jaarsveld was also involved on one occasion when we went to Ribeiro's home in Mamelodi to eliminate him. Captain Hechter's answer was, that is correct Chairperson, I asked him to wait in the garden. I was unarmed. Mamasela didn't have a firearm, we only had the pickaxe handles and we left Van Jaarsveld in the front, in the garden to, if the youths saw us there, he had to act as a sort of cover for us.
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Mr Chairperson, I can't remember this incident whatsoever, but what I can tell you in relation to this is that I have read the affidavits of Van Vuuren and Van Vuuren says at a certain stage that he attempted along with Hechter, to eliminate the Ribeiro's upon which Hechter answered that he could not remember that.
I suppose that Hechter may have confused these two with each other and consequently confused the two of us.
MR MEINTJIES: The last question which I would like to address is that of Mr Philip Coetzee. Do you involve him in any manner with this incident by mentioning his name or would you be able to give an explanation to the Committee as to what his role was?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Chairperson, as I have said before, Mr Coetzee was at my house, we lit a fire and we had a beer. The call came that the operation did indeed take place and like any good friend, I told my friend, jump in the car and come with me, so I do not involve him in this operation at all. I did not tell him where I was on my way to or what the purpose was. I did not inform him any ...
MR MEINTJIES: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEINTJIES
MR VISSER: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I have one or two please. Mr Chairman, may I just place on record that I have received instructions from my Attorney, Mr Britz, of Strydom Britz, to act in these proceedings on behalf of Mr Coetzee. An affidavit will be presented to you of Mr Coetzee, by Mr Coetzee in respect of this incident, in so far as it may be at all relevant. I will present that when that is available.
Captain Van Jaarsveld, can I just have surety, your evidence is that Mr Coetzee knew nothing of this beforehand or during the stage when he accompanied you to the scene?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: And then I would like to ask you, did you ever handle the file regarding the Ribeiro's?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Not at all Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: So you cannot comment on it?
MR VAN JAARSVELD: No, I cannot.
MR DU PLESSIS: I've got no further questions Mr Chairman, thank you.
Mr Chairman, may I perhaps just, I forgot to answer Adv De Jager just now about the question of Colonel Loots' evidence of the Ribeiro's and the movies, while I am speaking. May I perhaps just refer you to page 441 of Bundle 2(E), where you will find that evidence, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Lockhat, any questions?
MS LOCKHAT: No questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else that wishes to ask any questions? No?
Thank you very much, you are excused from further attendance.
MR VAN JAARSVELD: Thank you Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: This completes the Ribeiro matter, does it?
MS LOCKHAT: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: All right, now I had been reminded by my Committee that tomorrow morning we start the Piet Ntuli matter.
MS LOCKHAT: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And may I inform Counsel that it is the wish of the Committee that at the end of the Piet Ntuli matter, we will hear the addresses to us, on the issues that were raised by these three matters, to the extent that they are related.
To the extent that the personae in these matters, are connected and so on. So gentlemen, please bear that in mind, as soon as we have finished the Piet Ntuli matter, we hope that you will be in a position to address us.
We will now adjourn and resume at half past nine tomorrow morning.
MS LOCKHAT: Please stand.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
