MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman. The next applicant will be Mr Gouws.
DEON GOUWS: (sworn states)
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman. You will find the applicant's application in bundle 4, page 843 and onwards, as well as an affidavit Mr Chairman, that I've handed to the Committee in chambers earlier this morning.
JUDGE PILLAY: Which specific pages do you refer to?
EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, you'll find the application on page 843 and onwards, the specifics you will find on page 878 and onwards.
Mr Gouws, do you have a copy of the amnesty application before you?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: As far as Form 1 is concerned, on 843, do you confirm the contents of that, do you confirm the correctness?
MR GOUWS: That is so.
MR ROSSOUW: The schedule to your application, on page 848 and 849 we give the background, do you confirm that?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Gouws, you have also - in previous evidence before this Committee you were referred to Exhibit C, do you confirm that and do you ask that it also be seen against the background of your current amnesty application?
MR GOUWS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, that's Exhibit C.
Mr Gouws, insofar as it concerns this matter you are applying for amnesty, on page 878, for your involvement in the attacks on various properties. You say in black townships in and around Pretoria, Bronkhorstspruit, former KwaNdebele, Britz, Pietermaritzburg and Thembisa, is that correct?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Then on page 878(a), you give a setting out of the modus operandi, how these attacks took place, is that correct?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: You also mention that the houses were attacked with petrol bombs and home-made bombs.
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: At this time when you were involved in these incident, in fact today still, did you receive any training as an explosives expert?
MR GOUWS: At no stage, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: And at the time of this incident that took place in September 1986, where were you working then and what was your rank?
MR GOUWS: I was in Security Branch Northern Transvaal and I was a Sergeant.
MR ROSSOUW: And under whose command were you?
MR GOUWS: Captain Hechter directly and indirectly, Brigadier Cronje.
MR ROSSOUW: And as you previously testified, at this stage you shared an office with Captain Hechter.
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Insofar as this specific incident is concerned, the incident at the house in Serote Street 33, do you have any independent recollection of that?
MR GOUWS: No, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you tell the Committee how it came to your knowledge?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, the 2nd of May this year I consulted with Mr Rossouw and then it was brought to my attention.
MR ROSSOUW: Right. In this regard a statement has been prepared for you, made available to the Committee, do you have a copy of this?
MR GOUWS: Yes.
MR ROSSOUW: You also mention that at that stage it came to your notice that a person had been killed in this attack and another one injured.
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: You also listened to the evidence of Mr Goosen?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you remember at all that anyone discussed the matter with you after the incident, that -let's call it after similar incident, you received report-backs that people had been killed or what the extent of damage to property would have been?
MR GOUWS: No, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: In this regard you were involved in various such attacks on houses of activists, is that correct?
MR GOUWS: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you possibly, possibly give the Committee an indication of the number, the extent of those attacks?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, if I had to guess it would be between 30 and 50, it could have been more.
MR ROSSOUW: Right. As far as it concerns this specific incident you mention in your affidavit, which has been handed in, that you cannot remember the details of it, you also cannot dispute the details as given by Mr Goosen, do you therefore accept it?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that's correct.
MR MALAN: Excuse me, I just want to ask something. Why do you accept it, don't you have a previous experience of Mr Goosen's memory about people present and where you didn't agree with him?
MR ROSSOUW: Chairperson, with various incident, various people were present. I accepted because that was the way that we operated. So I must agree with him.
MR MALAN: If I can just mention the name of van Jaarsveld present at another incident, you didn't want to agree there.
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MALAN: So about another person you differ with him, but about yourself you accept what he says?
MR GOUWS: No, excuse me, Chairperson ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: You have no recollection, but you accept that you were there?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Why?
MR GOUWS: As I said, it was a general way of working, the way we operated, we went out at night, the house was identified beforehand. What he just said is how we operated.
JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Gouws, you probably weren't on all these operations, isn't that so?
MR GOUWS: No, I don't think I was on all the operations.
JUDGE PILLAY: Why was this one not one of the operations where you were not present?
MR GOUWS: I was present at this operation.
JUDGE PILLAY: How do you know?
MR GOUWS: As I said again, that was a modus operandi.
JUDGE PILLAY: Listen to the question. You surely didn't go on all the operations that were carried out by the Security Police, isn't that so?
MR GOUWS: No, I wasn't at all.
JUDGE PILLAY: You could not, it was humanly impossible.
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
JUDGE PILLAY: Why is this not one of those operations where you did not go?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, I cannot remember the incident.
JUDGE PILLAY: But that's the point, that's the point of the question, why do you say you were there?
MR GOUWS: I read the amnesty applications of Goosen and Hechter and I must accept that I was involved.
JUDGE PILLAY: Thank you.
MR MALAN: Excuse me, Mr Gouws, let me just make it clear to you. You did not only read the amnesty application of Mr Goosen concerning the incident where van Jaarsveld was implicated, you also heard the evidence, not only the application and nevertheless you said he is wrong, van Jaarsveld was not present, in spite of the fact that you read his application and heard his oral evidence.
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, I'm speaking - are you speaking of the Pienaarsrivier incident?
MR MALAN: Yes.
MR GOUWS: If I remember correctly, I mentioned certain names that I can remember that were involved and I said the rest of the people I can't remember. I don't think I specifically said van Jaarsveld.
MR MALAN: You're not understanding my argument or my reasoning. You became aware that Mr Goosen's recollection was not as good as Mr Goosen thinks it is because he put van Jaarsveld at a place where you are quite sure van Jaarsveld was not, that is what you told us, is that correct?
MR GOUWS: I will accept that.
MR MALAN: And now he's putting you at a place of which you have no recollection that you were there, but you accept that, why?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, I just have to assume, that is how we operated.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, maybe I can pursue that line of questioning a little further, to assist the Committee.
Mr Gouws, did you have any knowledge of street names and places in Mamelodi, in other words do you know the street names of Mamelodi and so on?
MR GOUWS: No, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Now we accept that at this stage, as far as it concerns the consequences, you were not informed that anybody had been killed and injured. If you look at the operation from the time that you were involved until it was carried out, does this differ in any way or would it stand out, can it be distinguished from the other operations in which you took part at previous occasions?
MR GOUWS: Not at all Chairperson, it was a type of modus operandi.
MR ROSSOUW: And these previous operations, were they also done with Captain Hechter?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: So do you accept that insofar as it involves your present here, is there any aspect that distinguishes this incident from the others in which you were involved?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson, it's only the premises that differed.
MR ROSSOUW: You also mention in your amnesty application insofar as it concerns the attacks on these house, that it took place at night and that you weren't able to identify the houses.
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: You were also referred to the evidence of Captain Hechter in his amnesty application - Mr Chairman, you will find this is supplementary bundle 1A: Cronje Cluster 2. In Captain Hechter's application with regard to bomb explosions he mentions that he went with you and Goosen and van Jaarsveld, he was involved in the blowing up of houses in Attridgeville, Mamelodi and Soshanguve, were you referred to that?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: He also mentions that the decision to throw a bomb at a house or to attack a house is taken in regard to an activist who has done serious crimes such as throwing handgrenades and arson, which led to the injury and death of innocent people in townships.
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: He also mentions that the instructions were discussed each time with Brigadier Cronje and were based on the general approval that General Viktor gave towards the ANC political activists to overcome.
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you have any knowledge of such an instruction, let's call it an open instruction, from General Viktor?
MR GOUWS: I did not have knowledge of any such instruction.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you know that such instructions were issued, that such operations were launched by the Security Branch?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: And what was your understanding of that, what was the purpose of it?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, to stop violence in the black townships.
MR ROSSOUW: Are you also familiar with the expression that "fire should be fought with fire"?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: And Captain Hechter, did he tell you verbally or by way of the operation, on how it was done? Did it become clear to you that if a petrol bomb was thrown a petrol bomb was also thrown to the activists' house for example?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: And you also refer to the setting out in Captain Hechter's application, that the objective was to intimidate activists.
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Now in respect of the attack on Serote Street 33, you listened to the evidence of Mr Goosen that there would have been a discussion, information given to him by Captain Hechter that Mr May Ledwaba was involved in this plan to eliminate policemen, to attack them after a funeral. Can you remember that?
MR GOUWS: Not at all, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: You also heard and you saw the evidence that you were armed with an AK47, would you dispute that or would you accept that?
MR GOUWS: I cannot dispute it, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: In other cases were you also armed?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Who would have given you the weapon?
MR GOUWS: Captain Hechter.
MR ROSSOUW: And what would have been the purpose of you being armed?
MR GOUWS: Chairperson, in case we got into trouble and we might have been shot at, I would then have used the weapon.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Gouws, with the knowledge or the information which you know now and derived from Mr Goosen's evidence, as far as the consequences of these actions, referring to the specific consequences, are you asking for amnesty for the death of Walter Ledwaba and the injury to Julian Selepe?
MR GOUWS: Yes, that's correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Are you able, or do you want to add or tell the family something?
MR GOUWS: I just want to tell the families that we were busy with a job at that stage. I am very sorry, I feel very sorry for them. I feel very sorry that they have lost next-of-kin.
MR ROSSOUW: In your statement you say, regarding these attacks, you foresaw that there could be other people in the house and they could have been injured.
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: But as far as you are concerned, the purpose was firstly intimidation, it was not to eliminate specific persons.
MR GOUWS: That is correct, yes.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Gouws, at that stage in 1986, how old were you?
MR GOUWS: I was 24 years old.
MR ROSSOUW: If you'd received an instruction to go out to a black township together with Captain Hechter, were you in a position firstly to question his information regarding the identification of the houses?
MR GOUWS: No, Mr Chairman.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you accept that that was certain information that those people in the houses were coupled with the revolutionary onslaught?
MR GOUWS: That is right, Mr Chairman.
MR ROSSOUW: Were in you involved, or could you tell the Committee where that information was obtained to identify certain houses?
MR GOUWS: That information was obtained from the Security Branch, it was obtained from their informers.
MR ROSSOUW: You also mention in your amnesty application that you also worked with Joe Mamasela. We know that Mamasela was actively involved in the black townships, could he have provided you with information?
MR GOUWS: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: As far as it concerns the execution of these operations could you question an instruction from Hechter?
MR GOUWS: No, Mr Chairman.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
MR ALBERTS: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS
MR DU PLESSIS: I have no questions either, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: If you would allow me a few questions, Mr Chairman.
Mr Gouws, it is my impression and I want to tell you now that it is also the impression of the victims in this case, that this was a reckless attack on this house and that it was not justified in these specific circumstances.
MR GOUWS: According to me we were just doing our job.
ADV STEENKAMP: Do you want to explain to me how do your job in this regard, in this specific case. Where information did exist where this activist was, where he lived, the police knew this, the people had been living in that house for 30/35 years and now you attack that house during the night, you attack it with a bomb based on the information and you say that was your job.
MR GOUWS: I did not work with that information myself, t he information was conveyed to Hechter and from there Hechter gave his instructions.
ADV STEENKAMP: And you've just blindly followed those instructions knowing that they were unlawful instructions.
MR GOUWS: That is correct, yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: Did Mr Goosen discuss this matter with you and say that somebody was killed there and we don't know where the activist was, but there is ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Mr Steenkamp, the applicant said he could not remember that incident.
ADV STEENKAMP: I want to put my question again. On which basis then do you request that Mr Goosen's application should be incorporated into your own, if you don't remember anything? How can you apply if you can't remember?
MR GOUWS: It's based on the fact that I've read his amnesty application and I agree with that. Many such incident had happened.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman if you would allow me.
The question that I don't understand is, how can you apply for amnesty if you can't remember the incident, you don't remember anything.
MR GOUWS: I understand your question. I apply for amnesty because my name is being mentioned and that was the way we operated, so I just assume that I was there.
ADV STEENKAMP: But today - if you look at this today, you can't deny or accept the fact that you were there?
MR GOUWS: It's probably so, yes.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Gouws, you were asked "You never questioned such an unlawful instruction?" Before your involvement with this specific incident and the attacks on houses, were you involved in other incidents for which you apply for amnesty?
MR MALAN: Mr Rossouw, I don't think that is a legitimate question because he can't place the incident so he can't place incidents before or after.
MR ROSSOUW: Indeed, Mr Chairman. I'm specifically relying on the date, this incident, the evidence is ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: My apologies, you may proceed.
MR ROSSOUW: Maybe I'll make it more specific.
Mr Gouws, let us accept for a moment that this incident took place in September 1986, and that is confirmed by the families also. Before this incident, earlier during that year before you were seconded to the Security Branch, you were also involved in incidents in the so-called KwaNdebele 9 and also the attack on Minister Piet Ntuli, is that correct?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: During those incidents you co-operated with the Security Branch. You were in this investigative unit and you co-operated with the Security Branch.
MR GOUWS: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: The question whether it was an unlawful operation and the previous question as to whether it was just a small identified elite team who by themselves undertook to execute unlawful activities because they believed it would combat the liberation struggle. In the light of that, would you then confirm that there were also other people, other commanding officers involved?
Your evidence for example was that the commanding officer of the Special Investigative Unit in KwaNdebele gave his approval that you co-operate with the Security Branch, is that correct?
MR GOUWS: Yes, Mr Chairman.
MR ROSSOUW: In that case then, and your evidence was that you do not know about that personally but evidence was given that objectively seen it was clear that the Defence Force and the police co-operated regarding specific projects, is that correct?
MR GOUWS: Yes, Mr Chairman.
MR ROSSOUW: You've heard about the so-called "Joubert Plan" conveyed to Brigadier Cronje by General Joubert?
MR GOUWS: Yes, Mr Chairman.
MR ROSSOUW: That plan was geared at the Ribeiro and Nietverdiendt 10 and Ntuli, is that correct?
MR GOUWS: Yes.
MR ROSSOUW: As there was, inasfar as it is objectively speaking, there was also approval on a higher level than only Brigadier Cronje and there was also approval regarding the Defence Force?
MR GOUWS: That is correct, yes.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
JUDGE PILLAY: Just one question. Do you accept that you are guilty based on what Mr Goosen had said?
MR GOUWS: I accept that, Chairperson.
JUDGE PILLAY: Irrespective of the fact that he could make a mistake over such a long period?
MR GOUWS: I accept that.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
