ON RESUMPTION
MR MALAN: Mr Du Plessis, are you going to call Mr Hechter now?
MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, thank you. I apologise once again that Captain Hechter was not here when the matter came up, but he is next to me now and he is ready to give evidence.
JACQUES HECHTER: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: I don't think anybody thought that you would be required quite so early.
MR HECHTER: Thank you Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, the application that we are busy with at the moment is the application which concerns the petrol bomb attack on the house of Scheepers Morudi. Mr Momberg and Goosen both testified in this regard, they did not say much more than what is in their written applications, and you have read both of their applications, is that correct?
MR HECHTER: That is correct Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Do you have any separate recollection of this petrol bomb attack?
MR HECHTER: Unfortunately not, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Is there any reason why or is there any basis on which you would dispute their evidence?
MR HECHTER: No Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Do you therefore stand by their evidence for your own amnesty application?
MR HECHTER: That is correct Chairperson.
JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Hechter, tell me Morudi, did he become part of your informers?
MR HECHTER: Eventually, at the end, we did convince him to become an informer Chairperson. Excuse me, in our previous evidence it came out after the assault and everything, we managed to turn him to become an informer.
JUDGE PILLAY: What I want to know, he sounds to me as if he is in a special position with regard to people who are assaulted, attacked. Why can't you remember that or remember his case? To me, it is no the usual type of thing?
MR HECHTER: Chairperson, I accept how you feel about it, but unfortunately I can't help you about this.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't think, it is perhaps being technical Mr Du Plessis, that he can confirm the evidence they gave, when he wasn't here when they gave evidence. He can confirm the contents of their applications?
MR DU PLESSIS: Yes Mr Chairman, that was really the intention of my question, if I formulated it wrongly, I am indebted to you. Perhaps just one aspect Captain Hechter, your evidence is not that you can't remember anything about Scheepers Morudi as such, your evidence as I understand it, is just that you don't remember anything about this incident?
MR HECHTER: That is correct Chairperson. It would just have been one more house that was attacked. Chairperson, in my application, my original application if you go through it, I did ask for various incidents. I am honest towards this Commission when I say that the applications that I am asking for, is not everything that took place, it can't be if you take the time into consideration and the amount of time that I worked. Unfortunately I just cannot remember these incidents. There will be more that I simply cannot remember.
MR DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, am I also correct in saying that the interrogation about which you gave evidence and for which you received amnesty, is also something that you cannot remember and in that amnesty application, you went according to the evidence of Paul van Vuuren?
MR HECHTER: That is correct Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, it is also so that evidence has been placed before the Committee and correct me if I am not correct, with regard to your memory in the sense that I can remember when you gave evidence about this, you can remember certain happenings crystal clear, but about other incidents, it is completely out of your memory, is that correct?
MR HECHTER: That is correct Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, you will recall that Professor Robertse in his report, dealt with this phenomena as one of the results of post-traumatic stress in especially a war situation, that a person can remember a specific incident in the smallest detail, and another incident, he completely forgets. Captain Hechter, do you accept responsibility for this bomb attack with regard to Mr Goosen and Mr Momberg, is that correct?
MR HECHTER: That is correct Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NIEMAN: Captain Hechter, do you remember Brigadier Van de Wall?
MR HECHTER: I remember Brigadier Van de Wall, Chairperson.
MR NIEMAN: Do you also remember that he was in the office of the Divisional Commissioner as an Inspector of Operations?
MR HECHTER: No Chairperson, I and Brigadier Van de Wall worked together, not worked together but he was my Commanding Officer while I was a Detective at Pretoria Central. After that I know that he became involved in unrest, Unrest Control and so on, but his specific position unfortunately, I can't remember that, but if you would say that, then I would not dispute it.
MR NIEMAN: Can you remember anything that he and you would have discussed with regard to the incident, Scheepers Morudi?
MR HECHTER: Chairperson, they gave me his statement to read. I cannot remember it at all, but his integrity is of such a nature, that I would not doubt what he says in his statement, at all.
MR NIEMAN: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NIEMAN
MR ALBERTS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS
MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I think that we are at the end of our witnesses for this matter for this afternoon it seems like, Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR MALAN: Excuse me Mr Du Plessis, isn't there also an application from Brigadier Cronje on this point?
MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, excuse me, I just had to place it on record, Brigadier Cronje is also applying for this incident, thank you for reminding me. He is also applying for this incident. If I can get the specific page, it is page 101 of that new set of documents, page 101 of the first Bundle, refers to Schedule 9 of Captain Hechter's new set of applications. Brigadier Cronje's application is on the same application. He cannot remember anything of this incident, but he applies in so far as he would be the Commanding Officer. I would not have been able to present you with any evidence of Brigadier Cronje in respect of this matter, even if he was here, and for purposes of record maybe I should just place on record again, that he has gone to his daughter's home today, he was taken out of hospital, so he has recuperated very well, but he is obviously not in a position to testify.
MR MALAN: Excuse me, Mr Nieman, Brigadier Van der Wall, is he not here?
MR NIEMAN: Chairperson, I took him back to his house during lunch in view of the fact that Mr Wagener indicated that he would like to question Van de Wall when he gave evidence.
MR MALAN: Mr Nieman, it is so that he had indicated that, but we also agreed with him that we would continue with the evidence. If it was necessary to call him for cross-questioning, then we would consider it seriously. Is he not available to have his evidence heard now?
MR NIEMAN: Chairperson, he is at his house in Hatfield. I don't know if I can get him here in time for this afternoon.
MR MALAN: That means that all the others will have to come back when we continue, in case there is some interest that arises to the other applicants from his evidence. Who told you that he could go back?
MR NIEMAN: Chairperson, this is an arrangement that I made with Adv Steenkamp.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I think the position was that, to be honest, there was a request from Mr Nieman that Mr Van der Wall is going home depending on the position that all the applicants still had to testify and he will only come in on the end.
MR MALAN: That is right.
CHAIRPERSON: We are at the end.
ADV STEENKAMP: Unfortunately Mr Chairman, I don't think anyone has foreseen that it will go so quickly.
CHAIRPERSON: But it was fairly obviously before we took the adjournment that it was quickly, wasn't it?
MR NIEMAN: Mr Chairman, I will get in touch with him right away if I can be excused, and try to get him here as soon as possible.
CHAIRPERSON: We will take an adjournment and you can make the arrangements for him to come.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
