ON RESUMPTION
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the next witness is Johannes Jakobus Viktor, similarly we have prepared a document of his evidence for you and we have also prepared Chairperson, an affidavit. It will be come clear in a moment why the affidavit was necessary. Perhaps in Mr Viktor's case, we should ask your indulgence to lead him a little bit more courteously. The statement we propose should perhaps be marked Exhibit C Chairperson, and the affidavit, Exhibit D. May I say immediately that what is in the affidavit is also literally in a statement, so you don't have to read both. Can Mr Viktor be sworn in?
JOHANNES JAKOBUS VIKTOR: (sworn states)
MR MALAN: You may be seated, thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Viktor, you are also an applicant for amnesty in this matter, and you are requesting the same amnesty as we are requesting in the case of Mr Roos, is that correct?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: You have lodged an amnesty application which is currently before the Committee in Bundle 1(b), page 1. Chairperson, I hope I am right. 1(b), page 1 and it runs Chairperson, to page 9 I believe. Do you confirm the correctness and the truth of the contents of this application, this original amnesty application of yours?
MR VIKTOR: That is correct yes.
MR VISSER: Now, if we could go back to Exhibit C, that is the statement which was drawn up for you, there you also ask that the relevant evidence in Exhibit A be incorporated into your application?
MR VIKTOR: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Are there any portions of Exhibit A which should be excluded as far as you are concerned?
MR VIKTOR: Paragraphs 47 to 62, Chairperson, that relates to operations in foreign countries.
MR VISSER: Now if we go to page 2 of your statement, Exhibit C, there you indicated that in 1996 you decided to take part in the amnesty process and to make a full disclosure of all the incidents in which you were involved in the course of the struggle of the past?
MR VIKTOR: That is correct.
MR VISSER: You then also say that you suffer from a bad memory?
MR VIKTOR: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: What do you ascribe that to?
MR VIKTOR: In the first place to the lapse of time, and also to post traumatic stress.
MR VISSER: Are you being treated, do you get any psychological treatment for post traumatic stress?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: Are you still continuing with the treatment?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: You say that you can't recall the detail of the approximately 40 incidents in which you were involved, you can't remember that?
MR VIKTOR: That is correct.
MR VISSER: In those cases, were you mostly with members serving under Brigadier Cronje?
MR VIKTOR: Correct.
MR VISSER: Since the application has been lodged, were you able to refresh your memory regarding certain incidents?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: How did you do that?
MR VIKTOR: We had discussions with some of the members and I also read some of the members' amnesty applications.
MR VISSER: Are you certain that in these more than 40 applications or cases, you were also involved in the case where there was an attack on the homes of Gregory Thulare and Godfrey Qwabe in Tembisa?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: In your amnesty application, on page 2, you referred in paragraph 9(a)(i) to the fact that you are asking for amnesty for malicious damage to property, bomb explosions and you are asking for amnesty for any other offence or delict based on your involvement in that regard, and you then said from February to May 1986, could you please say why you restricted it to February to May 1986?
MR VIKTOR: It was at that stage that I joined the Security Branch permanently in Pretoria.
MR VISSER: And you also referred to certain places, Mamelodi, Atteridgeville, Pietersburg and Britz?
MR VIKTOR: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Now there is no specific reference to Tembisa, is that correct?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: But you were reminded that portion of those 40 incidents or that the 40 incidents included these two?
MR VIKTOR: Correct.
MR VISSER: How did you refresh your memory so that you were able to know that it included the attacks on the homes of Gregory Thulare and Godfrey Qwabe?
MR VIKTOR: By the amnesty application of Mr Roos.
MR VISSER: This you say on paragraph 4 on page 5. Now since your amnesty application in that respect is as vague as it is, there was a request made by Adv Andre Steenkamp for further particulars, you are aware of that?
MR VIKTOR: Yes, I am.
MR VISSER: You have tried and you are still trying to try and identify the incidents, correct?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: And you have also requested that certain applications namely of Jaap van Jaarsveld and Sergeant Tiny Coetzer be made available to you?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: And you have now received Sergeant Tiny Coetzer's amnesty application and you will go through it to find out whether there are other incidents which will resort under your amnesty application?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: As far as the incident of Gregory Thulare and Godfrey Qwabe are concerned, you have tried to place on record that which you can remember by means of an affidavit?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: And that has been placed before the Amnesty Committee, that is now Exhibit D is that correct?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: If we can now turn to the incident itself, you say that it had to take place in February to May because you said that that is when you were working for the Security Branch in Pretoria?
MR VIKTOR: That is correct.
MR VISSER: I suppose you mean the Security Branch Northern Transvaal?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: Brigadier Cronje was the Commanding Officer at that stage of the Northern Transvaal Security Branch?
MR VIKTOR: Correct.
MR VISSER: Were you a member of the Security Branch or what was the position?
MR VIKTOR: I was a Detective working in Mamelodi attached to the Riot, investigation of riots.
MR VISSER: That is referred to as the Special Investigation Unit?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: And what Branch were you attached to?
MR VIKTOR: I fell under the division of the District Detective Officer of the area.
MR VISSER: What was your rank?
MR VIKTOR: Captain.
MR VISSER: Are you still in the Police?
MR VIKTOR: Yes, I am now a Director.
MR VISSER: You said that you worked under the Security Branch, what does that mean? Were you bound by instructions from Cronje?
MR VIKTOR: Yes. I was transferred or seconded to the Security Branch and that was then my new office and I reported for duty there every morning.
MR VISSER: Did you indeed receive instructions from Brigadier Cronje and did you carry them out?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: Please refer to paragraph 10, in your affidavit as well as in your current evidence, you say that you were aware of the contents of the amnesty application of Andre Roos and that you have no independent recollection of certain aspects of his evidence, is that correct?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: That included that he came to Pretoria on a particular day to speak to Brigadier Cronje and that he was introduced to two people, one he couldn't remember the other one was Captain Hechter and thirdly that you were present at a meeting where Roos discussed the problems relating to activists in Tembisa and that you and Captain Hechter met Roos at the Olifantsfontein Police station and that he identified certain homes to you. You have no independent recollection of that?
MR VIKTOR: No, I don't.
MR VISSER: But you can't deny the correctness of his evidence?
MR VIKTOR: No.
MR VISSER: What you can recall appears in paragraph 11, or rather what you also cannot remember, you refer to that in paragraph 11, was whether Brigadier Cronje or Captain Roos informed you and Hechter in connection with the activities of the two victims?
MR VIKTOR: That is correct.
MR VISSER: What did you think against whom were you about to act?
MR VIKTOR: Well I knew we were going to act against the enemy.
MR VISSER: Who are you referring to?
MR VIKTOR: That would be the ANC/SACP alliance and any other people trying to overthrow the government.
MR VISSER: Now, did you and Captain Hechter then receive an instruction or order from Cronje?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: What did that entail?
MR VIKTOR: That we should attack the homes of people in Tembisa.
MR VISSER: When you compiled your application, you also didn't now what the identity was of these two people, but will you accept that the identities are as set out by Roos?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: I am going to page 4 Chairperson. What can you remember about what happened?
MR VIKTOR: Chair, what I can remember is that we operated at two homes in Tembisa. In one case we used an explosive device to attack the home and at the second home, we used AK47's to shoot at the house.
MR VISSER: Why did you use different methods to attack the two different homes?
MR VIKTOR: Our normal modus operandi was to use petrol bombs and explosive devices to attack the homes. If I have to speculate, there could be one of two reasons, either because we only had one explosive device with us that night, or because we couldn't get close enough to the house and I think the second alternative was probably the most probable one.
MR VISSER: What you can recall is that at the house where you used the explosive device, or bomb, that was the first house?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: You can remember that by virtue of what fact?
MR VIKTOR: What stands out in my memory about this incident is that when we ran out of the yard and into the road, after having used the explosive device, it exploded and we were very close and some of the shrapnel from the house actually landed in the road in front of us.
MR VISSER: You also say that you did not act for personal gain or out of personal malice or having a grudge, but simply because you were a Policeman and you acted in the cause and scope of your duty and it fell within your tacit or express authorisation or powers?
MR VIKTOR: That is correct.
MR VISSER: And that that was done with the objective of protecting the government and protecting the National Party who at that stage, was the governing party and to avert the revolutionary onslaught, is that correct?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: You are then requesting the Committee in the first place on the basis of your evidence, to accept that your intention was to mention all cases in which you were involved and where houses were attacked, to include all of that in your amnesty application, and on the basis of the affidavit, Exhibit D you are requesting the Committee to accept it as such and although on page 2, you did not refer to Tembisa, you are asking the Committee to deem it as if you had done so, to grant you amnesty?
MR VIKTOR: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, just one thing perhaps. You also later learnt from the amnesty application of Mr Roos, that a person was possibly injured in the attack, the attack in which you used the home made explosive device?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR VISSER: And we know now that that would have been the house of Godfrey Qwabe?
MR VIKTOR: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Viktor, am I understanding you correctly that the specific incidents which you are now requesting amnesty for, specifically those appearing on page 2 of the affidavit, referring to the attack on two homes, the home at Ekangala and the Ribeiro homes and homes in Pietersburg, that those incidents are the incidents which you are applying for specifically because you became aware of those incidents in which you were involved, after having read amnesty applications of other people?
MR VIKTOR: Yes, that is correct. The only difference is for the purposes of this Committee, it is only paragraphs 2(a) and (b).
MR DU PLESSIS: And those applications are based on what you say you can recall, and your memory as it was refreshed by Mr Roos' application in this case? Is that correct?
MR VIKTOR: Yes.
MR DU PLESSIS: When you lodged your amnesty application, there was no specific reference to any individual incident?
MR VIKTOR: Yes, that is true.
MR DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR VISSER: That takes care of my applicants, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I think we might continue and ...
MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, we can easily do that Mr Chairman. I call the next witness, Captain Hechter, Mr Chairman.
