Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman I wish to call Daniel Snyman.

DANIEL L SNYMAN: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Snyman you are an applicant for amnesty and in terms of Section 21(a) of the Reconciliation Act you have prepared an application and timeously handed it in within the twelve month period from the date of proclamation, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: At the time of this incident concerning Johannes Mabotha, you were a warrant officer stationed at the South African Police services and you were deployed to Section C1 in Vlakplaas under the command of Colonel Eugene de Kock, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you briefly explain to the Committee what training you received with regard to demolitions?

MR SNYMAN: I was an instructor at the counter-insurgency unit for approximately twelve years and after that I was transferred to Vlakplaas.

MR CORNELIUS: And while you were at Vlakplaas did you serve primarily as a demolitions expert among others?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct, I was quite familiar with the training.

MR CORNELIUS: Now with regard to this specific incident pertaining to Johannes Mabotha, if we study your amnesty application, at a stage you state that you were approached by Eugene de Kock and you were given the instruction to go to Penge Mine?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Would you speak up somewhat please? And what were the terms of the instruction, what did Colonel de Kock tell you?

MR SNYMAN: Colonel de Kock told me to arrange an ambush or shooting exercise at Penge mine which was to be held at night and that we had to make the necessary arrangements to prepare the various weapons and go there and just before we departed he informed me that an askari by the name of Mabotha who had apparently been at Vlakplaas before and who had turned and who had been picked up by the Johannesburg security branch would be taken there and that apparently he would be taken out there as a result of the fact that he posed a danger for any further information which he could give to the ANC with regard to the security branch of Johannesburg, the Soweto people as well as members of Vlakplaas whom he had worked with.

MR CORNELIUS: Very well, let us just take this step by step. You say that you had certain weapons and explosives which you prepared and packed?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What type of explosives did you take?

MR SNYMAN: We took commercial explosives as well as military explosives, if I recall correctly we probably also had certain mines and machine guns, yes machine guns.

MR CORNELIUS: And is it correct that there were 25 kilograms of military explosives?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What was the purpose behind that?

MR SNYMAN: It would have been to destroy the body.

MR CORNELIUS: I see. Did you and Snor Vermeulen the previous applicant transfer the weapons and explosives to Penge Mine?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You used the term to be taken out, did you mean that when Colonel de Kock told you that this Mabotha would be taken out he would indeed be killed?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is what I inferred.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask you something? I forgot to ask yesterday, while you're dealing with the question of explosives, the word to ...(indistinct) was it that they said they tied the body up with?

MR CORNELIUS: I understand it's cortex.

CHAIRPERSON: Cortex. What is that? Is it some sort of?

MR SNYMAN: Cortex is an explosive but it's in the form of a rope or as a cable, it is a long ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So you could use it as a rope?

MR SNYMAN: You could use it like a rope.

CHAIRPERSON: But it explodes itself?

MR SNYMAN: The whole cortex exploded, not like a fuse that just burns.

CHAIRPERSON: Dangerous stuff. Thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Chair.

This cortex, does it also serve as a detonator?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, it could have the same purpose as a detonator.

MR CORNELIUS: So if this cortex was wound around 25 kilograms of explosives it would lead to quite a great explosion?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: If an askari were to turn as you have said and go back to the place of this former military training or uMkhonto weSizwe or whatever the place would be, would this pose a danger for the security forces?

MR SNYMAN: Yes it would definitely have posed a great danger as a result of the information which he may have had concerning the methods of work that the Vlakplaas members used, especially the askaris who had worked with him and what their activities were and where they resided as well as the families of the police members and so forth.

MR CORNELIUS: If a fellow askari would return to the ANC and make this information known to the ANC in terms of who were askaris, it would by nature of the situation place the lives of those fellow askaris in jeopardy?

MR SNYMAN: Yes especially the askaris because they were his former cohorts and they would be the primary targets to be taken out by the ANC because they were co-operating with the SAP.

CHAIRPERSON: While we're on this, something I thought of last night, again didn't ask yesterday, had he might well be a danger to people who were not from Vlakplaas or at Vlakplaas but to other police or security police people in the light of the fact that according to Exhibit Mabotha 9(d), he was detained and interrogated for nine months before he joined the police force. Now during those nine months he may well have got to know the great many policemen, perhaps other detainees and things of that nature, is that so?

MR SNYMAN: That is so, he would have learnt more about them.

CHAIRPERSON: So when his danger was being considered, it would be considered over the whole period, not just the last few weeks?

MR SNYMAN: No, it would have been the whole time that he was involved with the SAP where he could have gathered information.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.

So did the regard the order which De Kock gave you as an order which you would carry out which fell within the limitations of the political objective of that time?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, I accepted it as thus as a result of the fact that he would have been a great danger for the security forces.

MR CORNELIUS: At all times you executed the orders of Colonel de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What would have taken place if you had not done so?

MR SNYMAN: We would probably have ended up in serious trouble if it would have happened that we ourselves turned against the security forces, we may have walked the same road as Mabotha for example or other persons.

MR CORNELIUS: You yourself would have become a risk for your unit as a result of the knowledge that you had?

MR SNYMAN: Yes I would definitely have been a risk as the result of the knowledge that I had and the co-operation that I'd given and the fact that I already knew what had happened there.

MR CORNELIUS: And as it has been said you would have had a very difficult life in the police forces?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: At all times you believed bona fide in the orders which Colonel de Kock issued to you?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: That he had made a reasonable evaluation of the situation, that it was necessary to eliminate this person?

MR SNYMAN: No, I never doubted it.

MR CORNELIUS: When you arrived at Penge Mine, did you and I assume N J Vermeulen then prepare the terrain?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, we investigated which place we could use for the ambush exercise and I think that earlier that afternoon we had already arranged for the necessary cables that would be required for the operation and also the places where we would set up the machine guns.

MR CORNELIUS: Very well, I don't think you've read the evidence in Wouter Mentz's amnesty application but he states that there was a chair inside a hole that had been dug with explosives below it. What do you have to say about that?

MR SNYMAN: No, I have nothing to say about this, it's the first time that I hear about it.

MR CORNELIUS: Was there any chair on the scene?

MR SNYMAN: No, there was no chair.

MR CORNELIUS: Where did you place the 25 kilograms of explosives?

MR SNYMAN: I think we placed it at the bottom of the quarry, I don't know whether it was earlier on in the day but I do believe that it was just before the decision was taken to take Mabotha there, that Vermeulen and I took it there because that place itself was quite a distance from our base and the house where we would stay, so we wouldn't have left it out there in the open, we must have taken it there shortly before the time.

MR CORNELIUS: Were you present when Mabotha was questioned?

MR SNYMAN: No, I don't know which questions were put to him. At that stage I was not present during the interrogation at Penge.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you yourself say anything to Mabotha?

MR SNYMAN: No, I did not talk to him and I didn't know him at all.

MR CORNELIUS: When did you see Colonel de Kock and the other members again?

MR SNYMAN: They arrived there, I'm not certain at what time, probably about 8 o'clock or so in the evening. This was after Vermeulen and I had already arrived there that afternoon just before dark.

MR CORNELIUS: Thus it was already dark when they moved into the quarry.

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What was your participation in the quarry?

MR SNYMAN: Mostly I sat with one of the machine guns at a point where I had a view over the whole area. At a certain stage I was down in the bottom of the quarry after Mabotha had been shot but then I returned to my position.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you see who shot Johannes Mabotha?

MR SNYMAN: No, I did not see who shot him, I later heard that it had been Mr de Kock.

MR CORNELIUS: You heard two shots?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot recall whether it was one or two, it may have been one or two because the environment contained many cliffs and therefore a high level of resonation so I didn't really pay attention to how many shots were fired.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you see the body of Mr Mabotha?

MR SNYMAN: Yes I saw they were busy placing explosives on the body.

MR CORNELIUS: At that stage you moved out to your position with the machine gun?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You did not participate in the removal of the clothing on the body and the placement of the explosives?

MR SNYMAN: No, I did not participate in it, I did however see that this took place.

MR CORNELIUS: And we know that this was Vermeulen and Britz who participated in these actions?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: So if in the other applications there is a reference indicating that you participated in the placement of explosives on the body it would not be correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: But it was dark?

MR SNYMAN: Yes it was very dark.

MR CORNELIUS: After the explosives had been prepared, everybody must have moved out of the quarry?

MR SNYMAN: Yes. After the explosives had been set, the persons moved back to the safe area to the shelter and from there Mr Britz gave the signal that the explosion was to take place and I began to fire with my machine gun and Vermeulen began to fire.

MR CORNELIUS: You have explained that the signal would be a small explosive device that would be set off which would indicate that everybody was to open fire?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, usually an ambush would be set especially if one was using a mine or an explosive. That explosive would first be set off and then shots would be fired with the firearm.

MR CORNELIUS: You and some of the members remained behind while Wouter Mentz, Eugene de Kock and Flores returned to Pretoria?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct, we spent the evening there and the following morning. We took care of the scene.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you take any alcohol to the scene?

MR SNYMAN: Yes we did.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you consume any liquor before the operation was executed and before the body of Johannes Mabotha was blown up?

MR SNYMAN: No, we did not consume any liquor, we would not have had anything to drink as a result of the fact that we were working with explosives and firearms and because it was dark.

MR CORNELIUS: So you say it would have been dangerous to use liquor while you were working with explosives?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And what was Mr de Kock's attitude towards members of Vlakplaas who consumed liquor before an operation?

MR SNYMAN: Nobody ever drank and nobody was ever allowed to drink any liquor before any operation. I think that he had previously chased persons away who he had found having liquor.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes so he was very strict about it?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: After the operation had been completed you must have had something to eat, braaied some meat and so forth and had some drinks?

MR SNYMAN: Yes we had some drinks and braaied some meat and spent the evening there.

MR CORNELIUS: The following morning, I think it was part of your operation to search the area for any signs of remains?

MR SNYMAN: Yes I did that and I didn't find anything. We fired a few more shots there and threw a couple of phosphorus grenades.

MR CORNELIUS: I understand from the previous applicant that the clothing of Johannes Mabotha was burned?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct, they burned the clothing on a fire.

MR CORNELIUS: You don't know whether his pockets were searched?

MR SNYMAN: No, I don't know, I wasn't present if such a thing was done.

MR CORNELIUS: You acted at all times within the scope of your duties?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And purely on the principle of need to know?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you question Mr de Kock with regard to possible previous interrogations or torture of Johannes Mabotha?

MR SNYMAN: No, I didn't ask anything, I must have heard that he had been interrogated by other security personnel.

MR CORNELIUS: Although you have committed gross human rights violations you have acted bona fide at all times with the objective to combat the onslaught of the PAC/ANC alliance on the then republic, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive any bonus or any form of financial remuneration for your action at Penge Mine?

MR SNYMAN: No, I received nothing.

MR CORNELIUS: Just your usual salary?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And did you have any vengeful or malicious feelings towards Johannes Mabotha?

MR SNYMAN: No, I didn't. As I have already stated I didn't know him personally, I simply accepted him as a terrorist.

MR CORNELIUS: And you have made a full disclosure of facts with regard to the incident and you have given your full co-operation to the investigating officers of the TRC?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You request amnesty for the murder of Johannes Mabotha.

MR SNYMAN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: The destruction of the body?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Transgressions in terms of the Arms and Ammunitions Act, transgressions in terms of the Dangerous Weapons Act and the Explosives Act as well for intimidation and the fact that you defeated the ends of justice?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Cornelius, did he say he is seeking amnesty for offences committed under the intimidation Act? What was the intimidation about?

MR CORNELIUS: There was a certain amount of involvement as far as intimidation as far as Johannes Mabotha was concerned at the scene itself before he was murdered. There was a type of enquiry held on him, we don't know exactly what happened there, he was involved but as far as his participation in that whole scene is concerned, he wants to cover himself fully and he requires amnesty for that.

CHAIRPERSON: As I said at previous hearings and I will repeat now, we would be obliged if full details are handed in of the events for which amnesty is asked for. I know you have been leading the evidence but we would like to have it from you in writing as well.

MR CORNELIUS: I will attend to that Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: All of you.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes I have finished, thank you Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chair. Hattingh on behalf of De Kock.

Mr Snyman you have now explained why Mr Mabotha was a danger because of the knowledge that he had but did you also hear that he went back? Before his arrest did he go back to the ANC?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, that is what I heard. From the time he left Vlakplaas that he had mixed with the ANC people and he had worked for them before he was again arrested?

MR HATTINGH: And that he had joined up with Mrs Winnie Mandela's soccer club?

MR SNYMAN: Yes this is what I had heard but I don't know about further investigations or the questioning that was done there but that he had indeed had gone over to the ANC after he had left, that I knew.

MR HATTINGH: And did you also know that he was a member of MK?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And in that respect he was well trained in the art of weaponry and acts of terror?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And did you also think that because of his involvement with the ANC that he might be a danger because he might become involved with acts of terror?

MR SNYMAN: Well he could have become involved at any time, he might have been a greater danger because of the fact that he was already an askari and then turned and went back.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I ask you something there? You said in the course of the questions you were asked that you didn't know about the interrogation?

MR SNYMAN: No the interrogation that took place apparently at Marble Hall I did not know about. I was informed just before we left for Penge, I was informed that he had been questioned by people from Jo'burg in this case Soweto branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that he had in fact been arrested and been in custody for about six months?

MR SNYMAN: I didn't know it no, exactly how long.

CHAIRPERSON: But a long period?

MR SNYMAN: He had been in custody, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that?

MR SNYMAN: I knew that, I was informed about that.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Hattingh, just one thing? Mr Snyman, on this day when Mr de Kock comes and give you the instructions, did you have an idea as to who he was talking about?

MR SNYMAN: At that time I did not know, as I say I did not know Mr Mabotha but I was told about him, I was informed what type of person he was, where he came from and what the reason was that he had.

ADV SANDI: In other words you knew that there was an askari who had disappeared?

MR SNYMAN: Yes I was informed about that.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, we have here a bundle of photographs which we haven't made available as yet because we intend, they are relevant to the Nelspruit Cluster, the Nelspruit incident but it might be of assistance to the Committee to see what the Penge Mine looked like at the time and we thought that maybe you would want to have a look at these photographs. Unfortunately, Mr Chairman, these photographs were taken when we went there on an inspection and we had an expert with us who took the photographs. We only have one bundle of originals and then we've made photostat copies for the other Members of the Committee and the parties involved. Unfortunately some of the photographs didn't photostat that well because of the lighting and so on but may I, before I hand it up, the original to you, show it to the witness for him to identify the area, Mr Chairman. In the meantime may I request to hand up photostat copies of the documents.

CHAIRPERSON: And can I say if anybody wants to satisfy themselves about any detail, they're quite at liberty to come and look at the originals.

MR HATTINGH: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you.

Mr Snyman I will show the original to you because some of the photostats are not very clear.

Mr Chairman, may I also just indicate that if certain positions are being indicated on these photographs they are not relevant to this incident, they relate to the Nelspruit incident.

Would you please have a look at photo one, please tell us what appears on photo one? This is in the vicinity of Penge Village that was used there, the mine village. These photos were taken on the 8th December 1994, that is to say after you had destroyed Mr Mabotha's body there. The mine village that you see there, are these the buildings in the background? On the left this piece here is the mine village itself if I look at from here, this would be the mine village where the mine is still used and the buildings on the photostats it's just white spots that are there, do you know what those are? May I show you to what I am referring to?

If you don't know please tell us.

MR SNYMAN: As I've said this photo looks like the Penge Mine itself which was still productive if I look at the photo.

MR HATTINGH: Let's go to photo two, what do you see on photo two?

MR SNYMAN: Photo two is exactly there where a circle is drawn. The hole that is there one cannot see it clearly on this photo but there's a hole on the foreground which is not indicated clearly and this was the hole that was used to blow up the body.

MR HATTINGH: Do I understand you correctly, the circle was drawn in the vicinity where it seems there's a large hole. Is that the hole which you are referring to?

MR SNYMAN: This is the one that's in the foreground that one cannot see clearly but there's a hole there on the foreground, the foreground is even and there are some embankments and then behind that there are some more embankments.

MR HATTINGH: Photo three is just a photo which indicates the area where the mine is situated and photo four is also a photo which indicates the asbestos remains which formed the embankments there. If I look at it then it seems like one can see the hole in the foreground but it's not very clear but there's the hole there and the embankment in the background. Photo five indicates some positions that does not have any relevance to the Mabotha matter but this gives us an indication of how high the embankments are that we are referring to?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And on photo six we get a good indication as to how uneven the terrain is there and how high the embankments are?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Photo seven is just a hole that is relevant for the Nelspruit incident. Photo eight just gives us an indication as to what the terrain looks like, do you know in the space where they are standing there, this is not the whole that you referred to? It seems like this is inside that quarry and the terrain is uneven, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: Yes it's very uneven.

MR HATTINGH: And the embankments are made up of loose stones and asbestos remains?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: The holes that one can see there, Mr Snyman, if I can take you back to that? On photo number five and six and seven and eight, the hollows which the persons are standing in, do you know what caused those holes?

MR SNYMAN: If I look at it, it might have been explosives because on several occasions we took old weapons and mortars and destroyed it there during exercises.

MR HATTINGH: So explosives were regularly used and explosive devices were regularly used on these premises before the Mabotha incident?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further questions, I do not know whether you wish to mark the bundle of photographs as an exhibit?

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we should

MR HATTINGH: It would then be Mabotha E, Mr Chairman. May I hand up to you the originals and then we have no further questions thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Do any of you gentlemen wish to see this before you question? Having looked at photograph one I think it's a pity we can't go on an inspection.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman, Lamey on behalf of Klopper, I've got no questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, Roelof du Plessis on behalf of Mentz, I've got one or two questions.

Mr Snyman, I just want to ask you questions about the use of liquor. The other persons who had testified before you, Mr Britz and Vermeulen, they said that you consumed alcohol after Mr Mabotha was shot, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR DU PLESSIS: And they've also said that they did not use alcohol before the shooting incident. You were not in the presence of Wouter Mentz continually there at Penge Mine?

MR SNYMAN: No I was not.

MR DU PLESSIS: So if Wouter Mentz says that he consumed liquor beforehand you cannot dispute it?

MR SNYMAN: No I cannot.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER: Jan Wagener, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Snyman, how long did you serve under the command of Mr de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: Approximately four years Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: Can you give us an indication as from when to when?

MR SNYMAN: It was the end of 1988 and up to the time that C Section 1 broke up. This was at the beginning of '93 I think.

MR WAGENER: So when you arrived at Vlakplaas he was already the commander there?

MR SNYMAN: Yes he was the commander there.

MR WAGENER: Did you receive a rank at Vlakplaas?

MR SNYMAN: I was a warrant officer.

MR WAGENER: You have said here this morning that when you left for Penge Mine you already knew that Mabotha would be killed there?

MR SNYMAN: Yes I was informed that it would happen just before we left.

MR WAGENER: And on a question put to you about what would have happened to you if you refused to carry out your instructions you said that you would be in serious trouble if you did not comply with the instructions?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: Here Mr de Kock words to the effect "come to Penge Mine, we are going to kill somebody, yes we're going to kill somebody there." What would happen to you if you said "I refuse to accompany you."

MR SNYMAN: I don't think it was an instruction to say come with me, let's go and kill someone, it was for the purposes of work, it was in the interests of the State. I accepted it as my duty because of the fact that I was a member of Vlakplaas and a member of the security forces.

MR WAGENER: And what trouble would you encounter if you did not obey the instructions?

MR SNYMAN: As I had said I would have been cast out in the eyes of the security forces as well it might have been decided that I could be a security risk, I would walk the same path as Mabotha.

MR WAGENER: Do you mean by this that if you refused instructions like these that you could also have been killed by your colleagues from Vlakplaas, is that what you're saying?

MR SNYMAN: I would not say not specifically by members of Vlakplaas but it could not have been excluded that an accident be arranged for a person who would possibly be a danger for the security forces.

MR WAGENER: So somebody - they would have murdered you too?

MR SNYMAN: I would not regard it as unrealistic that something like that could happen.

MR WAGENER: Mr Snyman, were you afraid of Mr de Kock, your commander?

MR SNYMAN: I will not say that I was scared of him, I had much respect for him, I knew him for a few years. I was not under his command, I was at the counter-insurgency unit, we rendered some service in Ovamboland and that is where I met him and I worked there with him but I was not under his command there.

MR WAGENER: Mr Britz said here yesterday that - I think he said that he had respect for Mr de Kock but this went hand in hand with some fear, did you hear that?

MR SNYMAN: I won't say that I listened to it all but while you mention it now it's possible that he might have said but I cannot recall his specific words.

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Chairman, the question was if he had fear for De Kock and he answered, he said he had respect, so it wasn't "koppeld aan vrees", it was under testimony.

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, no, the question was answered "I respected him but it was with an extent of fear" The word "vrees" was used.

Mr Snyman, what I want to ask you is, you and your colleagues at your level, those who were at your rank, am I wrong to say I get the impression that you feared for your lives if you disobeyed instructions from Mr de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: I don't think it was a matter of fearing for your life if you did not comply with an instruction but as I said it's not a matter that Mr de Kock would pull out a gun and shoot me because I was not obeying my instruction, but I had no fear that he would just whip out a firearm and shoot me, I saw it as a duty that I had to perform.

MR WAGENER: Because if you didn't do it some accident might happen to you, I think that is what you said.

MR SNYMAN: I think it has happened to persons in the security forces before, that is not an uncommon thing in the security or what shall I say, in the espionage world that such things happen.

MR WAGENER: Have you ever refused an instruction from Mr de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: Not that I know of, no.

MR WAGENER: So to use an old cliché, if he says jump in the fire then you jump in the fire?

MR SNYMAN: I wouldn't see it in that light when he says jump in the fire, as I say the instruction was reasonable to me in the execution of my duties when I received an instruction and it seemed reasonable to me and within the scope of my duty and to protect my country I would obey these instructions. I would not just go and blow up anybody for the joke of it.

MR WAGENER: While you were there at the mine were any alternatives considered with regard to Mr Mabotha besides killing him?

MR SNYMAN: I don't know.

MR WAGENER: I see you say in your application on page 68 as well as on page 100 that at some stage De Kock came to you and said there is no other way out, Mabotha has to be killed. Did you see that as in your application?

MR SNYMAN: That is how I wrote it in my application and that is how I said it but now I can say that I understood that it is time to go and to get the work done.

MR WAGENER: So from the time you departed from Pretoria there was actually no other way out?

MR SNYMAN: Not one that I could think of at that time. If Mr de Kock said he took another decision at that stage then I would accord with that decision because he was the commander.

MR WAGENER: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman, Rossouw.

Mr Snyman, you are very clear that when you left from Vlakplaas with the arms and explosives you knew that Mr Mabotha would be killed?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: So the purpose was not to go interrogate him firstly?

MR SNYMAN: No, I understood that he would probably be asked a few questions but as I said with the questioning I had no involvement there.

MR ROSSOUW: I just ask you because emanating from questions that Mr Wagener asked you on page 67 and 68 of your statement it seems that you say in paragraph 3 that Mabotha would be taken to Penge Mine to be questioned and then later you say "at some stage in the evening Mr de Kock told us that there was no other way out and that the person had to be killed." It seems that the impression is the initial purpose was just interrogation, this did not work and then there was no other alternative to kill him. So you would say that the statement does not give the correct meaning there that you wanted to give?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, if I have a look at it, it is not the correct meaning but I knew it would happen and as I also understood or I believed and I thought or my perception was that if Colonel de Kock was satisfied, whether he questioned him again or whatever, maybe he decided that to detain him I don't know. With the questioning I had nothing to do.

MR ROSSOUW: I will accept that, okay. This person, Mr Mabotha, you did not know him as an askari at Vlakplaas?

MR SNYMAN: Yes he had walked off before I started working there.

MR ROSSOUW: And when you heard that he had deserted Vlakplaas for yourself, is your evidence correct that your own inference was that he was a security risk?

MR SNYMAN: It was not just an inference I drew, it was reality.

MR ROSSOUW: And the reality and the possibility existed that he could place other members of the security branch in danger because of the information that he had about them?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: And you have answered on questions that you accepted that he would become involved with the ANC and he would be involved with acts of terror?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: Was it said to you that he would again become involved in terrorism activities?

MR SNYMAN: As I've said before we departed I was involved more in the light that he had already given his co-operation to the ANC again in the Soweto environment.

MR ROSSOUW: Yes, but what I'm asking you is whether it was specifically said to you that he was involved in attacks of terrorism and specifically attacks during which policemen had been killed?

MR SNYMAN: I would not be able to say whether that was specifically told to me.

MR ROSSOUW: You cannot recall that?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, I cannot recall it.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA: J A C Maribana for Mabotha family.

Mr Snyman I've got just two questions for you. One we were told or were informed about Mr Mabotha that he was an ex askari, he defected back to the ANC. Before that, did you have any knowledge of that? You were informed, or let me just say it, before I understand that you were informed at the time you were requested to take the explosive to Benjamin is that not so?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR MARIBANA: So what I'm saying is that before that, were you ever informed or did you have any knowledge that Mr Mabotha did this, you were informed prior?

MR SNYMAN: Yes I was informed about his movements and about what he did before I left Pretoria.

MR MARIBANA: And ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On that day before you left Pretoria or had you over a period heard about it?

MR SNYMAN: I heard about it that same day that we left Pretoria, I had not heard about him before.

CHAIRPERSON: Hadn't you heard when you got to Vlakplaas that one of the askaris had done a bunk?

MR SNYMAN: I didn't hear specifically about that one, as I say I was more in the line of training at that moment, I wasn't in the investigation.

MR MARIBANA: And did Mr de Kock maybe tell you from whom did he receive that information?

MR SNYMAN: It was from the Johannesburg security branch or in this case Soweto. I said Johannesburg, to me it was the same.

MR MARIBANA: And you didn't want to know more afterwards, is that so?

MR SNYMAN: Just repeat again?

MR MARIBANA: After you were being informed?

MR SNYMAN: Yes?

MR MARIBANA: About the profile or the later profile of Mr Mabotha, you didn't want to know or to find out more about him, is that so?

MR SNYMAN: I had no reason to question any further due to the fact that the decision was made for us to go there so the necessary investigation must have been done by Soweto and whoever may have been concerned.

MR MARIBANA: And Mr Snyman, would you actually be able to tell this Honourable Committee as to who did dig up the hole where the body of Mr Mabotha was place?

MR SNYMAN: That who did what?

MR MARIBANA: Dig the hole?

MR SNYMAN: I don't know that there was a hole dug there.

MR MARIBANA: But isn't it that the body of Mr Mabotha was placed in a hole where the explosive was?

MR SNYMAN: Was set? At the time I went down into the hole Mr Britz and Vermeulen were busy, there was no hole where they were busy, they had just placed the explosives against the body or the body against the explosives. There was no hole and there was no chair as what they said.

MR MARIBANA: And from this exhibit, I mean this thing Mabotha A, you were shown the photographs of Benjamin. On photo two, will you please just refresh my memory, what does this circle indicate on this photo two?

MR SNYMAN: That that you see in the background there is mine dumps, it is asbestos dumps, discarded asbestos, that is what you see there. In the front, before you get to those mine dumps that are at the back there, there is a big hole and I think if you have a look a bit further, there's a person standing in the hole and another person standing next to it, next to a tree. That is in the hole in the foreground in the bottom of that hole there which you cannot see on photo number two very clearly. But in the area where that little circle is drawn, right in the foreground before those mine heaps start at the back there's this deep hole where the people are standing in.

MR MARIBANA: Thanks Mr Snyman. And then these are the holes which you have just indicated that might have been caused by the explosives, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, those holes could have been caused by explosives Mr Chairperson.

MR MARIBANA: And then if one understands you correctly, the explosives which were used to blow up Mr Mabotha's body were put in that type of a hole, is that true?

MR SNYMAN: No, it does not necessarily have to be put in a hole. If you put the explosives on the ground, the explosives will make a hole like that.

MR MARIBANA: Thank you Mr Snyman.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Maribana. I thought Mr Hattingh, when he submitted these photographs had said they had not been taken for purposes of this enquiry into the Mabotha incident but just to give us some sense of the physical terrain of this Penge area, not so Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: That is correct Mr Chairman, the circle relates to the Tiso matter and not to the Mabotha matter.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR MARIBANA: Thank you Mr Chairman for that clarity. I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARIBANA

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, Ramula Patel.

Sir, can you tell us that whether you had to drive to the quarry from the point where Mr Mabotha had been brought to Penge Mine?

MR SNYMAN: Yes we had to drive there, it was I wouldn't say a kilometre but probably close to a kilometre from the old houses which were used as a base when we did training there to the specific hole where explosion took place.

MS PATEL: Okay, had you gone ahead of Mr de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MS PATEL: To the quarry, okay. And do I understand you correctly, your role there was merely a lookout in a sense, at the quarry itself?

MR SNYMAN: That is what I actually most of the time did but I was available to do any other work which would be necessary.

MS PATEL: Okay fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Well your role was also as I understood it to provide the cover fire to the explosion?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairman.

MS PATEL: You must have seen Mr Mabotha when he was brought down into the quarry, not so?

MR SNYMAN: I did not see him at that time, I saw him when we were still at the base at the house where we waited for Mr de Kock and then I saw when they arrived there. I didn't speak to him, I didn't know him and it was a short time after that I think that Mr de Kock and them arrived and I think then we were told to perhaps go and prepare the place, to put up the ambush site and but Mr Mabotha, I didn't speak to him at all.

MS PATEL: No, my question was did you see him when he was brought down into the quarry itself?

MR SNYMAN: No, I don't think I was there at the time when he went down into the quarry, I think at that time I was perhaps at a lookout post.

MS PATEL: Okay. You stated that you went down only after he was shot?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Not prior to that?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay, no fine. Thanks Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR CORNELIUS: I have no re-examination, thanks Mr Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Just one or two questions. Mr Snyman, in 1989 was it still that much a risk for an askari to walk away from Vlakplaas because if I remember well the political situation had changed dramatically?

MR SNYMAN: No, at that time it was still a serious risk for the police that action may have been taken or information may be given out.

MR SIBANYONI: To your knowledge were there any askaris who walked away, who disappeared from Vlakplaas?

MR SNYMAN: I think while I was there after that time there was an incident whether it was more than one incident, I'm not sure.

MR SIBANYONI: And those who disappeared were never traced, in other words Vlakplaas didn't try to trace and locate them?

MR SNYMAN: I think at one stage some of the other askaris found a person that had left where he actually just went absent without leave or whether he - I don't know but there was an incident and if I think about it, somebody brought him back. As I say I don't know whether he really ran away or he was just absent without leave but I know where when there was an incident at some time that a person didn't arrive for duty.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Yes, just one question. Mr Snyman, in the duration of your services at Vlakplaas as one of the members who were there, did you ever receive money for anything besides your salary?

MR SNYMAN: No, I did not receive money for work specifically like this.

ADV SANDI: Did you ever receive money for anything?

MR SNYMAN: Well as I mentioned at a time before and in a hearing that I did receive money from Mr de Kock.

ADV SANDI: Can you repeat that? I didn't hear you?

MR SNYMAN: I say at a time I did receive money from Mr de Kock. I think I mentioned it in a hearing or at another TRC hearing, I'm not sure.

ADV SANDI: Were you told what that money was for?

MR SNYMAN: I had financial problems and he gave me the money, it was what it was for, it was not for doing my work.

CHAIRPERSON: How much?

MR SNYMAN: I think it was R5000 Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Oh yes, thank you, you did mention that I think it was in East London?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been asked lots of questions about Mr de Kock. You were at Vlakplaas with him for quite some time, weren't you?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: During that time did distinguished people, Ministers and Generals visit Vlakplaas?

MR SNYMAN: Yes they did, I wouldn't it say it was an unfamiliar occurrence if people from head office came to Vlakplaas for a braai.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they all appear to be on very friendly terms with Mr de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: They did.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he receive regular promotion?

MR SNYMAN: Well he was a major and he became a colonel in the time that I was there.

CHAIRPERSON: And did the other members get promotion?

MR SNYMAN: Yes some people did get promotion there but it was their normal police promotion and I think that people that were at Vlakplaas also they passed the necessary exams.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it apparent that it was held in high esteem as a good working station?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And is this one of the reasons why you were prepared to accept orders given by Mr de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: I was prepared to take orders from him, I wouldn't have questioned it because I had taken for granted that it is in the line of my duty and that it would be expected not only from Mr de Kock but also from the other officers from head office and so forth.

CHAIRPERSON: That these orders would have where necessary come down the proper channels?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SNYMAN: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED