MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chair, I call Leon Flores.
LEON FLORES: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.
Mr Flores you have prepared your application in terms of the Act for your participation in the death of Johannes Mabotha, is that correct?
MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Your application has been filled in on the prescribed form and has been handed in within the period of twelve months after the proclamation?
MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: At times of this incident you were a sergeant in the service of the South African Police at Vlakplaas under the command of Eugene de Kock?
MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: At that stage how long had you been with the unit, can you recall?
MR FLORES: Two and a half years.
MR CORNELIUS: Upon this particular day, who gave you the order to participate in the operation?
MR FLORES: Colonel de Kock.
MR CORNELIUS: What was the order?
MR FLORES: The order was that Warrant Officer Britz and Sergeant van Niekerk and I were to go to some or other police station on the Rand.
MR CORNELIUS: Did it appear to be the police station at De Deur at a later stage?
MR FLORES: Yes that is how I understood it.
MR CORNELIUS: And what was the objective?
MR FLORES: The objective and the instruction was to pick up a person who was unknown to me at that time and to transport him to a certain place.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you understand that this was an askari that you had to pick up?
MR FLORES: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: Was the name Johannes Mabotha mentioned?
MR FLORES: I cannot recall whether it was mentioned at that time or stage but it later became known to me that it was Johannes Mabotha.
MR CORNELIUS: Can you tell the Committee what happened next that you departed and then?
MR FLORES: Briefly, we went to the police station where we picked up this person, this Mr Mabotha.
MR CORNELIUS: Might I just assist you here? Before that, was there any meeting concerning three vehicles?
MR FLORES: Yes I can vaguely recall something like that.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you participate in the discussion which took place there before you went to the police station?
MR FLORES: No.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you disembark from the vehicle or did you remain inside the vehicle?
MR FLORES: No, I remained inside the vehicle.
MR CORNELIUS: Very well. Can you recall who were all present on the scene or not?
MR FLORES: Would that be at the vehicle?
MR CORNELIUS: Yes, before you went to the police station.
MR FLORES: I cannot recall precisely who was present, I know that Mr Britz who drove our vehicle who drove our vehicle climbed out of the vehicle and joined the group.
MR CORNELIUS: But you did not climb out?
MR FLORES: No I didn't.
MR CORNELIUS: Evidence was also given that at a stage you, Mr Britz and Mr van Niekerk, you sat in the passenger seat in front and Van Niekerk sat at the back and Britz drove?
MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: That the three of you moved past the De Deur police station and stopped 200 metres away from the police station where you took observation?
MR FLORES: Yes, vaguely that might be correct.
MR CORNELIUS: What did you observe?
CHAIRPERSON: Should he give his evidence as to what he recollects rather than you putting to him which you say happened?
MR CORNELIUS: I'll rephrase it, thank you Mr Chair.
Can you recall that the police station was put under observation?
MR FLORES: No.
MR CORNELIUS: What can you recall regarding what took place?
MR FLORES: I can recall that Mr Britz arrived with Mr Mabotha and put him in our vehicle and from there we departed.
MR CORNELIUS: Can you recall which vehicle you drove?
MR FLORES: We travelled in a Toyota Landcruiser Station Wagon.
MR CORNELIUS: And while you were driving what took place?
MR FLORES: I can't recall the exact time of us being on the road but at a certain stage when another vehicle passed us Van Niekerk and I placed Mabotha under pressure and we cuffed him.
MR CORNELIUS: You refer to another vehicle, which vehicle was this?
MR FLORES: This was the vehicle in which Colonel de Kock and Mr Mentz were travelling.
MR CORNELIUS: I see and you then overwhelmed Johannes Mabotha and you handcuffed him?
MR FLORES: Yes.
MR CORNELIUS: And then?
MR FLORES: According to my knowledge after this took place I assume Mr Britz signalled to the vehicle ahead and both vehicles came to a stop.
MR CORNELIUS: What happened then?
MR FLORES: If I recall correctly, Mr de Kock approached us and mentioned something to Mr Mabotha briefly then walked back to the vehicle and we departed once more.
MR CORNELIUS: In your application you say that he said: "Do you think you're clever?" to Mabotha.
MR FLORES: It is possibly so but it was something sarcastic, if I recall correctly.
MR CORNELIUS: I see that you are struggling to remember many of these details, is this due to the lapse of time?
MR FLORES: Yes Chairperson, ten years is a long time.
MR CORNELIUS: You then drove with Mabotha who was handcuffed. Where to?
MR FLORES: We were on our way to Penge Mine as I understood later in the vehicle.
MR CORNELIUS: What happened there?
MR FLORES: Upon our arrival there we saw Mr Snyman and Mr Vermeulen there. We then climbed out of the vehicle and joined them.
MR CORNELIUS: In your application you state that there was a dinner or a meal. Was there any such meal at that point or did this take place later in the evening?
MR FLORES: I know that we had a braai, whether this was before or after the incident I can't recall but I know that we had a meal there. It is possible that it is after the time.
MR CORNELIUS: Were you present when Mabotha was interrogated?
MR FLORES: No, not at all.
MR CORNELIUS: What happened then?
MR FLORES: After Mr de Kock had spoken to Mr Mabotha, we went back to the vehicles and drove some distance away from where we had been.
MR CORNELIUS: You then drove to the quarry?
MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: What happened next?
MR FLORES: We then climbed out and moved down to the bottom of the quarry hole. As I recall, if this is correct, Mr de Kock asked me to return so that I could fetch his pistol in the vehicle which he had left behind. I did so.
MR CORNELIUS: Mr de Kock has denied this in his evidence, do you have anything to say about that?
MR FLORES: It may be that I could be confusing this with another incident but I'm under the impression that I went to fetch a weapon but I could be incorrect.
MR CORNELIUS: What happened in the quarry?
MR FLORES: At that stage I didn't know what the others were doing but I stood with Mr de Kock and Mr Mabotha at that stage. While Mr de Kock was speaking to Mr Mabotha, he lifted his hand and fired two shots at Mr Mabotha which hit him in his upper chest.
MR CORNELIUS: He then died?
MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And what happened next?
MR FLORES: I removed the cuffs from him and went back to the vehicles.
MR CORNELIUS: So you then left the quarry?
MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: And you don't know what else happened at the bottom of the quarry with regard to explosives and so forth?
MR FLORES: After the time I heard what they had done but I was not present when the incident developed further and they acted further.
MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause then that shots were fired to provide cover and that the explosives were used to destroy the body?
MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you remain there until the following morning or did you leave later on.
MR FLORES: A short while thereafter whether we braaied after the time we left with Mr Mentz and Mr de Kock.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you consume any liquor before the operation?
MR FLORES: No, not at all.
MR CORNELIUS: And after the operation?
MR FLORES: Yes it is possible that we may have had a beer but I can't remember it precisely as that.
MR CORNELIUS: Were you aware that the allegation was that Johannes Mabotha had been askari who had turned back to the ANC?
MR FLORES: Yes this was brought to my attention.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard this as a dangerous situation when an askari turned back?
MR FLORES: Yes definitely.
MR CORNELIUS: Would this have jeopardised the position of the security forces and those members at Vlakplaas?
MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you put any questions about the previous interrogation or torture of Mabotha?
MR FLORES: No not at all.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that your action would help to prevent the total onslaught against the republic by the SACP/ANC Alliance and the PAC?
MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: You acted bona fide in the execution of your orders from Mr de Kock with regard to this particular objective?
MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive any bonuses or personal advantage or benefit from this action?
MR FLORES: No not at all.
MR CORNELIUS: Did you have any feelings of malice or vengeance towards Mr Mabotha?
MR FLORES: No not at all.
MR CORNELIUS: You were the so-called foot soldier, the sergeant who carried out the instructions of officers of higher rank?
MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: What would have happened if you did not execute your orders?
MR FLORES: Personally I believe that I would have been alienated by my other officers and that I would have posed a problem or a danger to the unit if I did not carry out my duties due to the fact that I possessed a great deal of knowledge about the unit.
MR CORNELIUS: You are requesting amnesty in the submission that I have given to the Committee with regard to the offences that you have committed?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR CORNELIUS: It might be an appropriate time for the tea adjournment I see, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record.
Mr Flores, regarding the incident I do not want to pose too many questions to you but except for asking you, you said you left along with Mr de Kock and Mr Mentz from Penge Mine back to Pretoria is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Who drove the vehicle?
MR FLORES: If I recall correctly it was Mr Mentz.
MR HATTINGH: And can you recall whether he had any trouble driving the vehicle because of the fact that he might have been under the influence of alcohol?
MR FLORES: No, not at all.
MR HATTINGH: Very well, a few other aspects Mr Flores, Mr de Kock said at some stage that he helped you after you were involved with an international incident and national intelligence and your post that you had with national intelligence you lost, do you know this?
MR FLORES: Yes but it was with DCC, I remember that.
MR HATTINGH: Did you work with them after you were attached to Vlakplaas?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And then you were involved in some incident abroad and this is why you lost your post?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And you had no income afterwards?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did Mr de Kock then assist you financially?
MR FLORES: He did Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Do you know where he got the money from?
MR FLORES: It came from State funds and that is the only thing I know.
MR HATTINGH: Do you know who authorised it or whether it was authorised at all?
MR FLORES: I don't know at all, I don't know who authorised it Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: A final aspect, you were involved in the gruesome killing of a fellow human being and the destruction of his body. How did you feel about this afterwards?
MR FLORES: No pleasant Chairperson, definitely not pleasant, this is not something that one could feel good about.
MR HATTINGH: Were you also involved with other incidents that were unpleasant?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: On your way back from Penge Mine could you pass judgement by what you observed or what Mr de Kock said to you as to how he felt about the situation?
MR FLORES: Mr de Kock was withdrawn and quiet after this incident, I would say that he would not have felt good after this, nobody would have felt good after such an incident, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: You did not brag about it or was cold towards it?
MR FLORES: Definitely not Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR LAMEY: Lamey on behalf of Klopper, no questions Mr Chairman.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Roelof du Plessis on behalf of Wouter Mentz, Mr Chairman, a few questions.
Mr Flores, Mabotha was cuffed with handcuffs or his hands were handcuffed when you arrived at Penge Mine?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson, it was already so.
MR DU PLESSIS: And Mr Mentz' evidence was that he was tied to a pole?
MR FLORES: That is not right Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Are you saying that is wrong?
MR FLORES: Yes.
MR DU PLESSIS: And why do you say so?
MR FLORES: Because I fetched Mr Mabotha from the vehicle and I left him at one of the walls of the ruins there.
MR DU PLESSIS: You were with him all the time?
MR FLORES: Not all the time, I left from there and I went to sit at the fire with the other people.
MR DU PLESSIS: Was he at this one place before he was taken to the mine where he was shot?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Tell me Mr Flores, did you consume liquor after the operation?
MR FLORES: That's possible that I may have enjoyed a beer, I don't remember.
MR DU PLESSIS: You can't remember?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: And in other words it's possible that Mr Mentz might have had something to drink afterwards?
MR FLORES: The possibility does exist Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Were you in the company of Mr Mentz all the time?
MR FLORES: Not all the time.
MR DU PLESSIS: Before the operation or before the shooting of Mr Mabotha?
MR FLORES: Please repeat?
MR DU PLESSIS: Were you in the presence all the time before Mr Mabotha was shot?
MR FLORES: Not at all Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: So if Mr Mentz said that he consumed liquor you cannot dispute it?
MR FLORES: No I cannot Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Hattingh had asked you as to who drove the vehicle on the way back to Pretoria from Penge Mine and you said it was Mr Mentz?
MR FLORES: I speak under correction.
MR DU PLESSIS: Are you not sure?
MR FLORES: No I'm unsure whether he drove the vehicle.
MR DU PLESSIS: So you cannot specifically recall that?
MR FLORES: No I can't Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
CHAIRPERSON: Was it you, could it have been you?
MR DU PLESSIS: That drove? Not at all.
MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, Johan Wagener, I've got no questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman, Rossouw.
Mr Flores, in your evidence in chief it seems as if your memory with regard to the time that you left from Vlakplaas and went back after you were at Penge Mine is your memory very sure or is there some vagueness with regard to any stage during this operation?
MR FLORES: There are some things Chairperson that I recall vaguely.
MR ROSSOUW: But one expects that after such a long lapse of time?
MR FLORES: Yes.
MR ROSSOUW: When you departed from Vlakplaas to the police station on the East Rand at De Deur did you know at that stage that you would pick up Mabotha there?
MR FLORES: It was mentioned to me in the vehicle Chairperson that we will pick up a former askari and I would lie if I say if the name was mentioned Mabotha.
MR ROSSOUW: And tell me, did you know at that stage when you departed from Vlakplaas that you would take him to Penge Mine?
MR FLORES: When I left the farm, no, not at that stage.
MR ROSSOUW: When did you hear that he had to be taken to Penge Mine?
MR FLORES: En route from the farm to the unknown station at that stage on the East Rand.
MR ROSSOUW: Can you recall how you heard this and who told you?
MR FLORES: Warrant Officer Britz told me.
MR ROSSOUW: Do you recall that you might have stopped somewhere before you arrived at the police station?
MR FLORES: I cannot remember anything like that Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: And then you said that what you can remember is that you stopped outside the police station and that Mr Britz brought the askari to the vehicle?
MR FLORES: That is what I said.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you remain in the vehicle?
MR FLORES: Yes Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you see whether Mr van Niekerk climbed out of the vehicle?
MR FLORES: If my memory serves me correctly Mr van Niekerk remained in the vehicle with me.
MR ROSSOUW: So according to you there was no discussion between him and another member of the security branch outside the vehicle?
MR FLORES: I cannot confirm that.
MR ROSSOUW: Are you saying it is not so or are you not sure?
MR FLORES: I'm not sure Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Let me ask you in this way, in your statement on page 196 at the top you say that Mr Vermeulen and Mr Snyman went ahead to Penge Mine. Did you state it there in the light of retrospect after you completed the application or was it your knowledge when you departed from Vlakplaas?
MR FLORES: As I heard this was on the way to De Deur.
MR ROSSOUW: So you did not know that part of the operation?
MR FLORES: Not at all Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: And you also accepted that this askari, if he went back to the ANC and he had returned that he would be a security risk?
MR FLORES: Definitely.
MR ROSSOUW: Had you ever heard from anyone that he was involved with shooting incidents where police officers were killed?
MR FLORES: At that point in time, no Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA: J A C Maribana on record.
Mr Flores, I just want to find out from you, when you and Mr van Niekerk collected Mr Mabotha, how did he climb into the vehicle in which you were driving? Was he dragged or did he climb in the motor vehicle voluntarily?
MR FLORES: Voluntarily, Mr Chairperson.
MR MARIBANA: And as in testifying you indicated that Mr Britz came with Mr Mabotha, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR MARIBANA: Mr Britz told this Honourable Committee yesterday that actually what happened is that Mr Potgieter ordered or told Mr Mabotha to go with you people. What is your comment on that?
MR FLORES: I wasn't present with that briefing there Mr Chairperson, so I cannot comment on that.
MR MARIBANA: Isn't it that at that - or let me ask you like this, when Mr Potgieter came with Mr Mabotha towards the motor vehicle, were you not with Mr Britz at that stage?
MR FLORES: Is that outside the vehicle Mr Chairperson?
MR MARIBANA: I'm just saying at the time, I'm not sure whether you were outside?
MR FLORES: I was sitting in the vehicle, Mr Chairperson.
MR MARIBANA: And if I understand you correctly, Mr Britz was outside the motor vehicle at that stage?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR MARIBANA: And in your statement on page 196 does this, on the second paragraph
"After collecting him we told him that we were going to drop him off at his home."
Did Mr Mabotha maybe enquire from you people as to where you are you taking him?
MR FLORES: He might have but I cannot recall, Mr Chairperson.
MR MARIBANA: And who talked those words that "we're going to drop you off"?
MR FLORES: I have no idea Mr Chairperson. I cannot recall.
MR MARIBANA: And did you know at that stage that Mr Mabotha would be killed?
MR FLORES: Not at all.
MR MARIBANA: And now Mr Flores, when you were driving, Mr van Niekerk ...(indistinct) and push Mr Mabotha down, did you know what actually made him to do that? Was there any instruction going to do that or he just started it?
MR FLORES: When making the statement, Mr Chairperson, I was under the impression that Mr Britz had arranged with us that when as I previously stated when Mr de Kock's vehicle passed us that would be a signal that we should handcuff Mr Mabotha.
MR MARIBANA: But you were not, if I understand you correctly, you were just speculating here, is that so?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MR MARIBANA: And then before Mr Mabotha ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: But that is what happened, isn't it?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: That when the car passed you, you did handcuff him?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Sir, Mr Chairperson.
MR MARIBANA: Did he give any resistance when he was handcuffed?
MR FLORES: At that stage I presume he did because he must have been astonished what is happening now, Mr Chairperson.
MR MARIBANA: And at that time or when actually did you know that you're heading to the mine with Mr Mabotha ...(indistinct)
MR FLORES: I beg your pardon, Sir?
MR MARIBANA: At what stage did you know that you were heading to Penge Mine? After Mr de Kock has passed or I just want to find out that, at what stage actually?
MR FLORES: At the stage of - I remembered why - I beg your pardon - going to Penge was when we bypassed Middleburg, I knew we were not on our way to Middleburg, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: But hadn't you been told that you were going to Penge?
MR FLORES: Not at all.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said that Britz told you that on the way?
MR FLORES: At one stage Mr Chairperson, I can't recall but he did mention what was going on to me in the vehicle that was from Vlakplaas to De Deur area.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR FLORES: It could have been that he did mention it in that time or that point in time.
MR MARIBANA: And as from your own testimony that Britz ...(indistinct) to De Kock and both vehicles stopped, what were they doing there at that particular stage, what were they doing? Did maybe they exchanged words or what?
MR FLORES: If I recollect correctly, Mr Chairperson, when Mr de Kock's vehicle stopped he just exited the vehicle, walked over to our vehicle and made a remark and then climbed back in his vehicle where we followed and both vehicles left.
MR MARIBANA: Could you hear the remarks from Mr de Kock at that stage?
MR FLORES: I did state in my statement that if I may refer to it something like "you think you're clever?" I could be mistaken.
MR MARIBANA: And then now at Penge Mine, you indicated that Mr de Kock started talking to the ANC member, well ...(indistinct). Could you hear their conversation at that stage?
MR FLORES: I couldn't, Mr Chairperson, couldn't hear any questions put or any answers but you could hear they were talking.
MR MARIBANA: Will you be maybe in a position to tell this Honourable Committee for how long did the conversation between Mr de Kock and Mabotha took place?
MR FLORES: If I were to say a time I would be totally fabricating then.
MR MARIBANA: Now Mr Flores, on question of going back and fetch first a gun, you were saying asked I can't remember by whom, you indicated that you might be confusing this incident with other one, were you ever involved in that type of an incident before?
MR FLORES: In such a similar incident?
MR MARIBANA: Uh huh.
MR FLORES: Not that I can recall, no.
MR MARIBANA: So one would be correct to say what you are saying here is what transpired on that particular day?
MR FLORES: To the best of my knowledge Mr Chairperson, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: As I recollect it, what you said you can't remember whether it was this or some other incident or being told by De Kock to go and fetch his gun?
MR FLORES: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: When you told us that De Kock said you should go and fetch his gun for him, I think that was when you said you may be mistaken this may have been involved in another incident?
MR FLORES: That is correct, I did mention that.
MR MARIBANA: While you were at the quarry did you hear what Mr de Kock was saying to Mr Mabotha at that stage?
MR FLORES: No Mr Chairperson.
MR MARIBANA: Thank you Mr Chair, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARIBANA
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, Ramula Patel.
You stated in your application that Mabotha was picked up outside the police station yet today you say he was picked up you at a particular point where the three vehicles met?
MR CORNELIUS: I'm sorry Mr Chair, that wasn't testified. He in fact said that he picked him up outside the police station but not at the point where the three vehicles met.
MS PATEL: Sorry Honourable Chairperson.
Did you pick him up immediately outside of the police station?
MR FLORES: Chairperson, what do you mean by immediately, I don't?
MS PATEL: Sorry, exactly outside the police station, was he collected in front of the police station?
MR FLORES: If I recall correctly, yes. My impression was in front of the police station. Could be a distance away, I'm not sure. I'm not familiar with that area.
MS PATEL: Do you mean that he could have been collected some distance away from the police station at a point where you would have waited or what are you not clear on?
MR FLORES: I could have been possible, in the area of the police station but not directly as by the front door of the police station. I cannot say where exactly.
MS PATEL: Okay when Britz brought him, Mr Mabotha, to you, where did he bring him from? From another vehicle or from out of the police station directly to you?
MR FLORES: I have no idea, Ma'am.
MS PATEL: Was Britz the only one who was with Mr Mabotha at that time?
MR FLORES: There were other gentlemen with him Mr Chairperson, who they were I can't recall.
MS PATEL: How many others?
MR FLORES: I have no idea.
MS PATEL: Okay. When Mr Mabotha got into the vehicle, what was said to him?
MR FLORES: At that stage when he entered the vehicle nothing was said, we just greeted one another.
MS PATEL: Did you know him from beforehand?
MR FLORES: Not at all.
MS PATEL: Do you know whether he knew anybody else who was in your vehicle at that time? Was there a discussion between people?
MR FLORES: I doubt it, Mr Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Okay. And you say that it was Mr Britz' instruction that he be handcuffed at the point when De Kock passed the vehicle?
MR FLORES: If I'm not mistaken, that is so, Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Can you say there was some resistance that was offered at that time?
MR FLORES: I could say so yes.
MS PATEL: Could you tell us more clearly what the nature of that resistance was?
MR FLORES: I think Mr Chairperson any person being offered a lift and being suppressed to be handcuffed, I don't know how one explains resistance.
CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, you don't know if there was any resistance or not, you merely presume there would have been?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: While we're on the subject, how far had you driven when this happened?
MR FLORES: Chairperson, I'm unclear on that.
CHAIRPERSON: Five minutes, an hour?
MR FLORES: If I recall correctly, I think I've stated in an hour, could have been less.
MS PATEL: Okay. You did however state in your evidence in chief that Mr Mabotha at the stage when he was handcuffed was put under pressure. Do you recall that?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MS PATEL: Okay, what was the nature of this pressure?
MR FLORES: The nature of this pressure referring to now, Mr Chairperson, is when Mr van Niekerk overcame him, that is basically just the normal ...(intervention).
MS PATEL: What is normal, Sir?
MR FLORES: I'm trying to think of a good word, ma'am.
MS PATEL: Okay?
MR FLORES: Just used - overpowered him with his strength, to sustain him so we could get handcuffs on, Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Okay, would I be correct then that at that point at least Mr Mabotha would have started becoming concerned and worried about what was going on and that he at that stage would have realised that this is not a normal situation, he is not just being taken wherever for training or back to Vlakplaas?
MR FLORES: I would believe that that's the way he would have felt, Mr Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Okay fine. You say that when you got to Penge Mine you left him at the side of a wall and you then went to join the rest at the fire?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Okay, was he left alone at that stage?
MR FLORES: At that stage when I put him against the wall, Mr Chairperson, then Mr de Kock joined him and I returned to the rest of the people.
MS PATEL: Okay, so Mr de Kock was there almost as soon as you arrived there?
MR FLORES: No he arrived there, if I can recall correctly, I can't give a time but shortly after us.
MS PATEL: Okay, fine. Sorry, just to backtrack slightly, you said that you pulled over the vehicle at some stage and at which the comment was made to Mr Mabotha by Mr de Kock, can you tell us what Mr Mabotha's reaction was to that comment?
MR FLORES: I cannot recall at that stage what his reaction was, Mr Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Okay fine and you say you weren't present at the cross-examination at Penge Mine?
MR FLORES: Not at all.
MS PATEL: Well I can't recall whether you've stated this but did you have to drop by from Penge Mine to the quarry where he was eventually shot?
MR FLORES: Yes I did state that Mr Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Okay and did Mr Mabotha drive in your vehicle?
MR FLORES: From what I can recall yes he did.
MS PATEL: Okay. Who was driving the vehicle?
MR FLORES: If I'm not mistaken it was Warrant Officer Britz as it was his vehicle.
MS PATEL: Okay and where were you sitting in the vehicle?
MR FLORES: It could have been left, front or back but I was in the same vehicle.
MS PATEL: Okay. Can you tell us what Mr Mabotha's state of mind was at that time? Was he agitated, was he calm, what was the position?
MR FLORES: I cannot answer that Mr Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Why not? You were in the vehicle, you were present?
MR FLORES: He never spoke to us Mr Chairperson, I'm not a doctor or something to see what state he was in, with all respect.
MS PATEL: From your perception of what his condition was at the time, I'm not asking you for an expert opinion, I'm asking you for what your perception was. Did he appear to be calm to you or not?
MR FLORES: Well I presume he was a bit confused and scared, must be.
MS PATEL: Okay. He would then have not gotten into the vehicle voluntarily?
MR FLORES: He did get into the vehicle voluntarily Mr Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Okay. You don't know what was said to him at that stage about where he was being taken?
MR FLORES: Not at all.
MS PATEL: Okay. And at the quarry itself, you stated that Mr de Kock was still talking to Mr Mabotha when he shot him, is that correct?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Do you know what was being said?
MR FLORES: I can't recall what the conversation was or the questions to one another was.
MS PATEL: Was there any resistance offered by Mr Mabotha at the quarry?
MR FLORES: Yes Mr Chairperson, at that stage I think I did mention in my statement that obviously Mr Mabotha knew what was going to happen and I can't recall the exact words but he was pleading for his life basically, yes.
MS PATEL: Was he? Okay, was that the full extent of his resistance, that he was pleading for his life then?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MS PATEL: Okay and what was Mr de Kock's response to that, can you recall?
MR FLORES: I cannot recall that, Mr Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Do you have any idea how long you were and Mr de Kock and Mr Mabotha were in the quarry before Mr Mabotha was shot?
MR FLORES: I can't think longer than five minutes, I'm speaking under correction but not longer than five minutes.
MS PATEL: Okay. You've stated in your application that there was a braai being held and that you stated in your evidence to us here today that you might have had a beer afterwards. If my memory serves me correctly, Mr de Kock said that there was no braaing done and there was no alcohol that was had by anybody. What is your comment on that?
MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, I didn't hear Mr de Kock's evidence.
MS PATEL: Okay, but you're sure about the fact that there was a braai and people came.
MR FLORES: I'm sure people had something to eat afterwards if I recollect correctly.
MS PATEL: And you left with Mr de Kock?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
MS PATEL: Afterwards?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Okay. Can you give us an indication, what was Mr - at the time in the quarry and when you were at the vehicle where you stopped and Mr de Kock had come over to pass the comment, can you give us an indication as to what the nature of Mr de Kock's attitude was towards Mr Mabotha?
MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, excuse me, was that before going into the quarry?
MS PATEL: No at the point where Mr de Kock came over and made the comment. Can you tell us, you know, in what sense what the tone of the comment was at the vehicle?
MR FLORES: Sarcastic.
MS PATEL: Sarcastic, okay. And what was Mr de Kock's attitude at the quarry when they were speaking, was he angry, was he calm, what was the position. Can you tell, can you recall?
MR FLORES: If I can recall, Mr Chairperson, he was acting very normal, no anger whatsoever.
MS PATEL: Would that be how you know Mr de Kock?
MR FLORES: At stages yes.
MS PATEL: At stages? And at other stages?
MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, we all have tempers, now it all depends in what scenario we are.
MS PATEL: Okay. But he wasn't angry at this stage?
MR FLORES: Not that I can recall Mr Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Okay. You stated that you were at Vlakplaas for two and a half years prior to this incident occurring, is that correct? Did I understand you correctly?
MR FLORES: No Mr Chairperson. My whole period was two and a half years.
MS PATEL: Okay, alright, no then I misunderstood you. How long had you been at Vlakplaas before this incident occurred?
MR FLORES: I'm speaking under correction, I think a year and a half, two years. I'm not sure.
MS PATEL: Okay and you didn't know Mr Mabotha at all?
MR FLORES: No, not at all.
MS PATEL: You didn't recognise him just from appearance either when you saw him?
MR FLORES: Not at all.
MS PATEL: Okay did you have any dealings with the askaris at Vlakplaas during your period there?
MR FLORES: Yes I did Mr Chairperson.
MS PATEL: Can you perhaps just from your experience tell us in what light they would have seen the need to know principle, do you know whether there were common breaches amongst them on this principle, whether they would have generally discussed things that they shouldn't have been discussing or whether the askari themselves had strictly adhered to the need to know principle?
MR FLORES: I think everyone at the farm Mr Chairperson was need to know basis.
MS PATEL: askaris included?
MR FLORES: Included.
MS PATEL: Okay, thank you Sir, I have no further questions.
MR FLORES: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
MR CORNELIUS: I have no re-examination, thank you Mr Chair.
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Flores, if there was no incident which was
similar to the one at page 9, how then do you confuse the fetching of the pistols? You are saying you confused it with another incident. How is that possible if there was no other similar incident?
MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, they've carried it over correctly, if I refer to other incidents where people were so killed and I'd just like to bring to your attention, is that during the giving of my statement, on one particular day I had to do 23 different incidents so I think it's just normal I could have been mistaken or confused with certain incidents.
MR SIBANYONI: Are you saying there may be another incident where you were requested by Mr de Kock to go and fetch a pistol?
MR FLORES: There is a possibility yes, Mr Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI: To fetch a pistol, to do what with a pistol?
MR FLORES: Well it depends in what incident such request was offered to me or given to me by Mr de Kock, I cannot recall at this stage. I was under the impression it was at this incident, that's why I mentioned it, Mr Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI: When you were asked questions by Mr du Plessis, you said you fetched Mr Mabotha and left him next to a wall or next to ruins. Did he offer any resistance?
MR FLORES: Not at all Mr Chairperson, not that I can recall.
MR SIBANYONI: You say obviously Mabotha knew what was going to happen and he was pleading for his life. Was he pleading to Mr de Kock?
MR FLORES: I would say direct in general he was pleading not to Mr de Kock as such.
MR SIBANYONI: By pleading he was asking that he should not be killed, his life may be spared?
MR FLORES: I wouldn't those were the exact words that he was using but he was pleading Mr Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI: But Mr de Kock said Mabotha was calm and in fact when he asked him questions Mabotha was just laughing. What is your comment about that?
MR FLORES: I cannot comment on that, Mr Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr de Kock said that when Mabotha saw the explosives he became alarmed and turned around towards him and that then De Kock shot him. Is it possible that he turned around and pleaded with De Kock?
MR FLORES: That could be a possibility, Mr Chairperson.
ADV SANDI: A question from me, not from the witness. Ms Patel, have we been able to find out about the age of the deceased? How old was the deceased when this thing happened?
MS PATEL: Well I think the question should be directed at the legal representative, Honourable Chairperson.
MR MARIBANA: Mr Chair, I've got instructions that he was born in 1958.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. No questions Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you've told us that you had a braai there, but you're not sure whether it was before or after the incident?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by a braai?
MR FLORES: Defining a braai Mr Chairperson is just a piece of meat and then having something to eat, maybe a beer and then ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: It's fresh meat that you take and you grill over a fire?
MR FLORES: We never took any meat with us as such in our vehicles but there was food there, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Where was there food?
MR FLORES: By the braai. I assume that the people who were there before us, Mr Vermeulen and Snyman did take meat with.
CHAIRPERSON: Somebody had brought fresh meat to the place where you were going to blow this man up and you had a braai, either before or after you did it?
MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And you said you may have had a beer?
MR FLORES: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: So it would appear that you were not all that shocked about what had happened?
MR FLORES: I was shocked Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: But you could braai some meat and drink a beer afterwards?
MR FLORES: Usually shock Mr Chairperson, with myself, always occurs an hour or two after the time.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR CORNELIUS: That is all the applicants I have to present Mr Chair, I think the next would be Mr Lamey, Mr Klopper I think.
