CHAIRPERSON: For the record, it is Tuesday the 8th of June 1999, it is a continuation of the session of the Amnesty Committee, at Telkom Park in Pretoria. The first matter on the roll for this morning are the applications of David Solomon Simelane, reference AM5305/97 and Christopher Mnisi, reference AM6059/97.
The Panel and the Leader of Evidence are as indicated previously on the record. Mr Koopedi for the applicants.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson. I confirm that my name is Brian Koopedi. I appear on behalf of the two applicants, being Mr Simelane and Mr Mnisi.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Koopedi, can we proceed to hear their evidence.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, we are ready to proceed. I will request that we not follow the chronological order in terms of names, and instead of starting with Mr Simelane, start with Mr Mnisi. I believe the Committee will be able to understand the evidence better that way, and I will ask that he be sworn in. Mr Mnisi is sitting on the extreme right of my side.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Koopedi. Mr Mnisi, can you hear the translation?
MR MNISI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: In what language will you be giving your testimony?
MR MNISI: Zulu.
CHAIRPERSON: Please stand. Can you give your full names for the record.
CHRISTOPHER SHILANE MNISI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi?
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Mnisi, is it correct that you are a co-applicant in this matter?
MR MNISI: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that this application refers to the killing of two persons, one known as Disco and one know as Selepe, who was a Security Branch member?
MR MNISI: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that these killings occurred in Mamelodi?
MR MNISI: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Are you a member, or were you ever a member of a political organisation?
MR MNISI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Which organisation?
MR MNISI: The ANC.
MR KOOPEDI: When did you become a member of the ANC?
MR MNISI: In 1980.
MR KOOPEDI: Now is it correct that whilst you were a member of the ANC, you were also a member of MK?
MR MNISI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Now whilst a member of MK, did you partake in any missions, did you do anything as a member of MK?
MR MNISI: Yes, I did.
MR KOOPEDI: Now where were you based, were you always in South Africa, or were you based outside South Africa?
MR MNISI: Yes, I did go out of the country and I came back and I was commissioned through Joe Slovo to go and reconnoitre a police station in Nelspruit, where we were arrested, captured by the Askaris.
At the time we did not know that they were Askaris. We were taken to the Kruger National Park, where we were tortured. I was put into a coffin by Mashigu and the other white police and put into a grave and my colleague was also tortured similarly.
As these people were interrogating us they wanted to know whether we were going to give the same story and we did give them the same story and we were taken to White River, but we did not see each other, we were locked up separately.
MR KOOPEDI: After being arrested, is it correct that you finally ended up in Vlakplaas?
MR MNISI: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: That is yourself and Isaac Moyema?
MR MNISI: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that this Isaac Moyema was so-to-speak, your immediate commander?
MR MNISI: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now at Vlakplaas, is it correct that whilst at Vlakplaas you were able to conduct communication with your regional commander?
MR MNISI: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that your regional commander was situated at Maputo, or in Maputo?
MR MNISI: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: And who was your Special Operations commander is Maputo?
MR MNISI: Solly Simelane.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that Solly Simelane is the person seated next to you, your co-applicant?
MR MNISI: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now whilst at Vlakplaas, you then had to escape, is that correct?
MR MNISI: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: And was this ever discussed with your regional command, as you say you were able to communicate with them?
MR MNISI: Yes, we did everything under the command. We received instructions as to what we had to do. The command wanted us to stay and collect as much information as possible, which information we would in turn pass on, but then we felt that it was not safe because they would discover what mission we had come for and that would be the end of us.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now I want you to get to the stage where you had to escape from Vlakplaas, did you get any instructions or advice from your regional command as to whether you can or cannot escape?
MR MNISI: We communicated our concern that we were not in the position to stay on at Vlakplaas, because they wanted us at Vlakplaas to go out and kill as many ANC members as possible and we were still fresh and we knew many trained comrades inside and outside the country, so that the situation did not permit that we could stay. We informed our connections outside that we were going to flee. There were many whites and they were all working there.
And we used to get - we used to be monitored all the time. One of these people who were monitory us was Disco, and they would follow us to our homes. Isaac I think, indicated that it was known that Disco is an informer, indicated that Disco was known to be an informer and then we decided to do something about this because for us to be able to escape and go back, it would not be possible, we would be captured and killed and a decision was then made to the effect that we should kill him, but we should not use a firearm. We decided to make use of a knife.
Isaac came, I met him at a gubela shop and he showed me the person and I stabbed him, after which I left. I went to my girlfriend's place. Before I could even settle, police came and arrested me. And this was possible because I was being monitored all the time. So that the following day, Coetzee came to pick me up where I was locked up at Mamelodi Police Station. I was supposed to appear in Court and they took me.
We went to Makanajaneni, a place near Mabopane. We were based there and that used to be our hide-out as Askaris, together with people like Coetzee. They said they wanted me to give them a statement of what I did. When I did the statement I did not tell the people that the person was a informer, I told them instead that I have killed an ANC person, I stabbed him. The reason being that he was apparently organising that I be beaten up or I be captured. And the people were at the same time surprised that I was moving about freely at Mamelodi. Now the statement that I gave to Coetzee as well as Vermeulen.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, did you finally escape from Vlakplaas?
MR MNISI: Yes, we spent January and February and around March, I think it was on the 15th, we went to Tonga. Vermeulen took my friend, Isaac, I think Isaac Moyema. I think they possibly had suspected that we were planning to escape.
After killing Ace we went back to the farm. I was scared now because I didn't know where he had disappeared to. I said to Vermeulen that I would like to have some money, R200, because I wanted to get married. He gave me the money and after taking receipt of the money, I was with another brethren by the name of Johannes Mnisi.
The money which I received from Vermeulen was not necessarily for a marriage, I gave to Freddy Shongwe, who would in turn use the money to drive us back to Swaziland. We crossed the border and then we met with Gabuza at Mbabane and that's how we fled.
MR KOOPEDI: Now let's go to the second incident, which would be in 1983. Were you still a member of Special Operation at that stage?
MR MNISI: Yes, I was still a member.
MR KOOPEDI: And did you have any operations within the country?
MR MNISI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Now let's get to the killing of Selepe, the Security Branch member. How did this happen, was it ordered by anyone, did you do it on your own, please tell this Committee how it happened.
MR MNISI: No, an order was issued.
MR KOOPEDI: By whom?
MR MNISI: It came from Solly.
MR KOOPEDI: Where was he when he issued the order?
MR MNISI: In Maputo.
MR KOOPEDI: Were you also in Maputo?
MR MNISI: Yes, that was our base. We would leave Maputo for Swaziland and then come to South Africa, and that's how we moved about.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now were you told why Selepe has to be killed?
MR MNISI: Yes, he was actually stopping liberation armies to free the country.
MR KOOPEDI: Let's get to the day you killed Selepe. How did you go to Mamelodi?
MR MNISI: I was fetched from Swaziland. I then sneaked into the country and placed at Promed, where I spent some time at comrade Ngubene's place, from where I was taken and went to Freddy's place.
I spent some time at Freddy's place and around 6, 7, 8, I think it was on the 7th of November, they then took me to show me Selepe's place. I waited for him. I actually went inside the homestead and requested a toilet, but I learnt he was not at home and I went out. As I was coming out I saw somebody coming, carrying a paper bag. I called out his name and he responded. That's when I shot him. I shot, or should I say fired warning shots into the air at the same time, to keep any other person away who might disturb me. My comrades took me away from the area because the police were just about to begin their investigation.
MR KOOPEDI: Now these comrades of yours, those who collected you, would that be Freddy, Shongwe and Jerry Magubane?
MR MNISI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Are these people still alive today?
MR MNISI: No, they died in a Pretoria car bomb blast because they were members of our unit as well.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now inasfar as the two killings are concerned, are you satisfied that you have told this Honourable Committee all there is to tell, the whole truth, that concerns you?
MR MNISI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Now for these two killings, were you ever paid anything, did you personally gain anything out of that?
MR MNISI: No, I did not benefit, save for the freedom that we have today.
MR KOOPEDI: Do you regard these two killings as having been politically motivated?
MR MNISI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Do you think that the political objective was achieved?
MR MNISI: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that will be the evidence of the first applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Koopedi. Any questions, Ms Mtanga?
CROSS-EXAMINATION MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, I've got about two questions.
Mr Mnisi, what were the real names of Disco, that you killed?
MR MNISI: I don't know him.
MS MTANGA: Are you able to give us the exact location where you had stabbed him?
MR MNISI: It was a little bit dark, but I think I stabbed him at the back.
MS MTANGA: I mean the place where the stabbing had taken place?
MR MNISI: Yes, it at Mamelodi, S&S.
ADV GCABASHE: What is S&S, Mr Mnisi, is it a shopping centre, is it a house?
MR MNISI: It is an area called S&S, it's like blocks.
MR KOOPEDI: If I can assist, S&S is a section in Mamelodi.
ADV GCABASHE: And at that section, where at that section, in his house, at a friend's house, just give us the location, where would that have been, in S&S.
MR MNISI: It was next to the road, just in front of houses.
MS MTANGA: Was this Disco working with you at Vlakplaas, or was he just a person in Mamelodi?
MR MNISI: He was an ordinary person at Mamelodi. He was an informer and he kept me under surveillance. Each time I came back, Isaac would tell me that such and such a person was monitoring my movements. He was a person operating in Pretoria. He knew many things. I'm talking here about Isaac, he knew more than I knew in this area.
MS MTANGA: On Incident 2, paragraph 15, you state that after you had carried out the operation on Mr Selepe, you went on to another target, but you couldn't find that target. Can you tell us where did you go, the exact location that you went to.
MR MNISI: I retreated and went back to Swaziland.
MS MTANGA: Mr Mnisi, your paragraph 15 reads as follows
"I was on the way to my second target for the day. Unfortunately I did not find the target."
So my question is, where was that target, where were you going to find that target?
MR MNISI: In Naledi, at Mamelodi. It is Hlongwane, I think it's Sergeant Hlongwane.
MS MTANGA: That ends my questioning, Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga.
Mr Mnisi, when did you kill Disco?
MR MNISI: It was in December, I think it was on the New Year's Eve.
CHAIRPERSON: In which year?
MR MNISI: I think it could have been 1981, it was in 1981.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Are there any other questions?
ADV DE JAGER: And you killed Selepe in 1983, is that correct?
MR MNISI: That is correct.
ADV DE JAGER: Round about February or March?
MR MNISI: I think it was in November.
ADV DE JAGER: But I understood you to say that you were only at Vlakplaas for two months. You stayed at Vlakplaas for, was it January and February?
MR MNISI: They took us from the White River Police Station. I think it was in October or thereabouts, and we spent November and December. We were supposed to escape in December, but this Disco incident delayed us, so we spent five, not two months.
ADV DE JAGER: But you say that you've still been a member of the Security Police when you killed Selepe - no, you were a member of Special Operations, you weren't a member of the Security Police.
MR MNISI: I was a member of Special Operations.
ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.
ADV GCABASHE: Mr Mnisi, I just have a bit of a gap in my notes, you're going a little too fast for me. You killed Disco and gave a report to Coetzee, yes?
MR MNISI: That was the following day, yes.
ADV GCABASHE: Then you went on to tell us that on the 15th of March you went somewhere, I just didn't get that name, where did you go to?
MR MNISI: That was during the operations, I went to Tonga, in the company of Vermeulen. We were in the course of our duty, trying to identify comrades which we would then capture.
ADV GCABASHE: Yes, and Vermeulen took somebody and - just go over that bit as well, I missed that.
MR MNISI: He took my commander, Isaac Moyema.
ADV GCABASHE: Yes, and what's important about him taking Isaac? Why did you tell us that?
MR MNISI: There were two of us in the operation.
ADV GCABASHE: Yes. So Vermeulen took Isaac and you went somewhere else, is this what you're saying?
MR MNISI: No. They took Isaac in the evening, that's from where we had camped. We used to camp in the veld or in the bush. Isaac and myself were assigned to monitor everything so that we could report back to the MK.
ADV GCABASHE: Yes.
MR MNISI: And as we were conducting the operations, Vermeulen took Isaac and left with him.
ADV GCABASHE: And what happened to Isaac, is that what is important?
MR MNISI: That's the last time I saw him.
ADV GCABASHE: Okay.
MR MNISI: When we went back to Vlakplaas, the other comrades started speaking. There is this slogan that they used to chant, saying something like "laga laga", and that implied or meant that one of us had been taken away by the boers.
ADV GCABASHE: Then you talk about "after killing Ace", is Ace somebody else or is Ace, Isaac?
MR MNISI: Ace is Isaac. Ace is actually is MK name.
ADV GCABASHE: Because the note I have is
"After killing Ace, we went back to the farm."
But you are really saying that you surmised that Isaac had been killed because that was the last time you saw him, when he left with Vermeulen. You know nothing about what happened to Isaac really?
MR MNISI: As we were sitting on the farm, there were talks that people just disappear. You will just disappear, you will either be burnt and there will be no grave because as far as I am concerned, Vermeulen came back on the following day, on the 15th, in the morning.
ADV GCABASHE: That's find, thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: None, thank you, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mnisi, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
