CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, we are about to start the proceedings. Before we do so, can we just apologise for the delay in starting the proceedings. The initial delay related to the fact that some of the persons who are key to the proceedings, had some pre-existing commitments that we couldn't renegotiate, we have in fact arranged to proceed with this matter not so long ago, we have postponed sine die and as we indicated at that time, it is fairly difficult to get an opportunity on our schedule where we could get the same panel together, so all of this have been arranged at fairly shorter notice than normal and for that purpose, we had to accommodate some pre-existing commitments. Unfortunately we have encountered a further logistical problem in the course of the morning, in the sense that we had a difficulty in getting an appropriate Interpreter present at the proceedings. We have in fact managed to secure the assistance and the attendance of an Interpreter that had to be fetched elsewhere and brought to the venue here. So unfortunately we have not been able to start as we had indicated and we must apologise to everybody for any inconvenience that resulted from that delay. Just for the record, it is Monday the 28th of June 1999, we are continuing with the amnesty application of Coetzee and Others and we are dealing with the incident relating to Simelane. The panel and the appearances are as had been indicated earlier on the record and we had progressed to the point where Mr Lamey was presenting the cases of those applicants whom he represent. If I have it, it would be the matter of Mr Selamolela that would still remain. Would that be correct Mr Lamey?
MR LAMEY: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairman, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So we will then hear the application of Mohapi Lazarus Selamolela and the reference number that I have is 5419/97. Yes, Mr Lamey, do you want your client to be sworn in or is there anything else that you wanted to put on record?
MR LAMEY: Yes Mr Chairman, before we proceed, I did indicate previously in chambers to the Committee that as the evidence unfolded, especially of Mr Veyi, that I at a certain stage - a moment was encountered at a certain stage during the proceedings, that I had to consider my position. Mr Chairman, I have reconsidered and I have also discussed it with Mr Selamolela and also had an opportunity to again peruse the evidence and also especially what has emanated from re-examination and Mr Chairman, at this stage, I don't foresee any potential conflict of interest between them and as I stated, as I have stated also that I have also discussed it with Mr Selamolela and it is also his wish that I further represent him for purposes of his application.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much Mr Lamey, we have noted that. Is there anything else that you want to raise, or do you want us to administer the oath to your client?
MR LAMEY: You can proceed with the oath, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Selamolela, can you hear the translation?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Are your full names Mohapi Lazarus Selamolela?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, that is correct.
MOHAPI LAZARUS SELAMOLELA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Lamey?
EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, before I start, I just want to point out that as in the case of Mr Veyi as well as Mr Mkhonza, the other applicants that I represent in this instance and there was also an initial amnesty application, I am instructed that was submitted during December 1996 and in which relating to the questions in Form 1 relating to the political objective and the nature and particulars, there was also reference to an annexure being a statement that Mr Selamolela made. At that stage, he did not have legal representation and it was, this first amnesty application was channelled I am instructed via the office of the Attorney General, to the Amnesty Committee. In this instance, I don't have any signed copy of that first application, but I have managed to obtain a statement which Mr Selamolela made to an Investigating Officer and which was purportedly signed under oath before Andrew Gordon Leask on 11-02-1996 relating to the Simelane incident. I have given my learned friend, Mr Visser, a copy of that statement, Mr Chairman. In view of the fact that the supplemented application which is part of the Bundle of page 560, relating to the Simelane incident, 560 to 570 and which was signed before I think the second cut off date of May 1997, I submit Mr Chairman, that this application as contained in the Bundle is really the one that will be relied upon. I can just say that as far as the nature and particulars is concerned as under question 9(a)(iv), what has been stated in the previous statement as far as I recollect, merely been incorporated into his amnesty application.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Lamey, for what exactly is he applying?
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, he is applying for amnesty relating, if I can just, with his involvement and participation with the kidnapping and then Mr Chairman, there is a statement in so far as - and he says he also applies for amnesty for any other offence or delict which may be inferred from the facts. Now, the verbal evidence will also reflect that he is also applying amnesty for a certain degree of participation in the assault.
ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but isn't he applying for bombings too?
MR LAMEY: Yes. There is, I see in the Bundle, a reference to explosions at power stations in Johannesburg in which he is also an applicant, although that incident is not, I believe, before this panel as an incident to be heard, but he is also an applicant relating to that, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but for the purposes of our hearing here, the application that we are seized with, relates to the Simelane matter?
MR LAMEY: Yes, yes, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we've got that Mr Lamey and then your client's application appears on pages 560 to 573 of the Bundle, would that be right?
MR LAMEY: Yes Mr Chairman, that would also include then the other incident of the explosions at power stations.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR LAMEY: As far as the Simelane incident is concerned, up to 570.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Very well, yes, you may proceed.
MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Selamolela, do you have your supplemented application before you, Form 1, which has been paginated at the right hand, page 560 to 570, relating to the Simelane incident, is that correct? Mr Selamolela, could you just have a look at that copy before you, have you signed it before a Commissioner of Oaths, do you confirm the correctness thereof, subject to what you will also further testify in oral evidence, is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now, is it correct if you have a look on page 561 that you joined the South African Police in September 1976?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And that you became a member of the Security Police and you were a member of the Security Police between the period 1981 to 1993, is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Mr Selamolela, is it correct that you have since retired from the South African Police, is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: When did you retire?
MR SELAMOLELA: On the 31st of October 1998.
MR LAMEY: That is October last year?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Could you just have a look at your Force number there, is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, it is correct.
MR LAMEY: Can you just tell the Committee for what reason did you retire from the South African Police?
MR SELAMOLELA: The Doctor stated that it is post-traumatic stress.
MR LAMEY: Did you retire as a result of medical reasons relating to post-traumatic stress?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I have before me three reports of two, one of a Psychologist and two of a Psychiatrist which I beg leave to hand up. I believe that we are busy with Exhibits E at this stage, Exhibit EE I believe from my learned friends.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it EE?
MR LAMEY: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And is it one report, how many reports have you got?
MR LAMEY: There are three reports, may I beg leave to hand them up to you Mr Chairman, and then we can number them, decide which one is going to be number what?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, my attention is just drawn by the Interpreter ...
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so there is an extra copy for the Interpreters, very well. Mr Lamey, the sequence that we have it here, the first one is Dr J.J. Grove?
MR LAMEY: Yes, Mr Chairman, may we mark that report Exhibit EE!.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Then the second one is of Dr J.P. Verster, EE2.
CHAIRPERSON: EE2?
MR LAMEY: And then there is one of a Clinical Psychologist, Russel Matthews, which I suggest EE3.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we have marked them as such.
MR LAMEY: Mr Selamolela, do you confirm that you have consulted these Medical Practitioners who have drafted these reports on your condition?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: They have described the nature of your condition in these reports and especially also that Dr Grove states that he has found that you have problems with your memory as well as your concentration abilities, and as well as Mr Matthews, is that also how you experience it?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Is it also correct that you are experiencing problems relating to sleeplessness and what is also referred to in the report?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: In the reports in general, your condition are related to your experiences as a member of the Police, is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Mr Selamolela, could you just go to page 565, there is a short introduction about your background in becoming a member of the South African Police and then specifically also the Security Police, do you confirm what is stated n page 565 and 566, is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now, is it correct that during 1983 you were a member of specifically the Security Branch?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: At Soweto, is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And under the command of Mr Coetzee, who has been also an applicant in this hearing?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: You have referred to him as Colonel Coetzee, is that the last rank that you knew he had or what was his rank in 1983, can you remember?
MR SELAMOLELA: He was a Warrant Officer.
MR LAMEY: What was your rank in 1983?
MR SELAMOLELA: I was a Constable.
MR LAMEY: And what was your rank when you retired from the South African Police in 1998?
MR SELAMOLELA: An Inspector sir.
MR LAMEY: And in the old days, what was the equivalent rank of that of Inspector?
MR SELAMOLELA: Warrant Officer.
MR LAMEY: During 1983, we now come to your application relating to the particulars of the Simelane incident, Mr Selamolela. What specific Unit were you attached to at that stage in the Security Branch, Soweto?
MR SELAMOLELA: It was the Intelligence Unit within the Security Branch.
MR LAMEY: Did you know Scotch or Dan or Normal Mkhonza at that stage?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, I did know him.
MR LAMEY: What was his function at that point?
MR SELAMOLELA: He was an Undercover agent.
MR LAMEY: By Undercover agent, do you mean that he was a member of the Police who was working under cover and who has infiltrated the ANC, is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And what - where has he infiltrated the ANC, in which area?
MR SELAMOLELA: In Swaziland Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Now, can you recall before the arrest or kidnapping of the lady Simelane, did you receive any instructions?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, Scotch informed me that he received instructions from Swaziland that he should go and meet somebody in Carlton Centre.
MR LAMEY: So Scotch informed you that he was to meet someone at the Carlton Centre, is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: I was instructed by Warrant Officer Coetzee that I should go to Carlton Centre and Scotch also informed me that he was going to meet somebody in Carlton Centre.
MR LAMEY: Did Scotch tell you who he was going to meet?
MR SELAMOLELA: He told me, but he did not give me the identity of that person.
MR LAMEY: Did he tell you whether it is going to be a lady or a man that he is going to meet?
MR SELAMOLELA: He said he was going to meet a woman.
MR LAMEY: Okay. What did you understand from this, can I understand you this, did you understand that this meeting was sort of just a social meeting or was it, had it to do with his work?
MR SELAMOLELA: I understood that it was work related.
MR LAMEY: Did you understand that it was also related to his undercover work that he had to meet this person?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, I understood it that way.
MR LAMEY: What, can you recall what instructions did Coetzee give you?
MR SELAMOLELA: Warrant Officer Coetzee informed me that I should go to Carlton Centre and Scotch is coming there to meet somebody there, so I should conduct observations.
MR LAMEY: Were you instructed to keep observation?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, that is correct. I don't remember as to whether they were going to meet at Juicy Lucy or a certain place, then we should follow them to the basement.
MR LAMEY: Okay, you say in paragraph 1, can you just page to page 566, you say
"... as far as I remember the following persons were also there,"
then you list Colonel Coetzee, Pretorius, Matiba, Sergeant Radebe and then in paragraph 2 you say -
"... it is also possible that Safuthi and Mong were also there."
If you, when you say there, what are you referring to?
MR SELAMOLELA: I meant that they were present at Carlton Centre.
MR LAMEY: Now, there has been evidence by Mr Coetzee to the effect that there was a meeting, a prior meeting, if I could just get to that specifically, Mr Chairman, it is Exhibit T, paragraph 10. Mr Coetzee testified there was a meeting at the Police flats at Custodum Norwood, that is now prior to the arrest or kidnapping of Simelane and he said that there were certain members present at that meeting. He said that certain information was given during that meeting about an MK person who was under way to the RSA, and that she had certain instructions from the leading element of MK in Swaziland, relating to the identification of targets and inland MK operators. Could you say, could you comment whether you were present at such a meeting?
MR SELAMOLELA: I was not present in that meeting.
MR LAMEY: When Coetzee gave you the instructions, can you recall, was she alone when he gave you the instructions, where was it, can you recall where it was when you received the instructions?
MR SELAMOLELA: I was alone, he phoned me telephonically and he told me that at four o'clock I should be at Carlton Centre.
MR LAMEY: You say he informed you telephonically, is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether he informed you the same day of the same event, when the events took place at the Carlton Centre, was it before that?
MR SELAMOLELA: It was on the same day when we went to Carlton Centre, he informed me earlier.
MR LAMEY: Right, and then did you go to the Carlton Centre as instructed?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, I proceeded to Carlton Centre.
MR LAMEY: When you went to the Carlton Centre, did you apart from what Scotch had told you, that he was going to meet a lady and apart from the instruction that Coetzee gave you that you must observe there, did you know what was planned or what was going to take place at the Carlton Centre?
MR SELAMOLELA: I did not know what was going to happen or what was planned.
MR LAMEY: Now, what did you do at the Carlton Centre, you yourself, did you see other members there and what transpired there at the Carlton Centre?
MR SELAMOLELA: That woman appeared, then she went to Scotch then they sat on the table, around the table.
MR LAMEY: Yes.
MR VISSER: Sorry Mr Chairman, I don't know if it is only mine, but I have a beeping noise on my earphones and every time the beep comes on, the words that the Interpreter is speaking, are lost. I heard nothing of the last answer, I am not sure whether it is only mine or whether that is a common problem?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, mine has a bit of a disturbance, a slight disturbance in the background, but I didn't have that interruption that you have. Perhaps try another set.
MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you just repeat that, the last answer.
INTERPRETER: The woman appeared and then she met Scotch and then they sat around the table.
MR LAMEY: Where were you when you saw this?
MR SELAMOLELA: I was present in that fast food restaurant.
MR LAMEY: And then what transpired further?
MR SELAMOLELA: Scotch talked to that particular lady, after they drank a glass of juice, they did not waste time, they descended to the basement. Then I followed them.
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I enquire from my learned friend, Mr Lamey, whether there is any particular reason why we don't refer to the people as we are used to them, by their names. We are used to Mkhonza, now this part of this record is now going to refer to as Scotch, if anyone else along the line should want to read this record, it is going to be very confusing.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps it would help Mr Lamey. I must confess that you know, some of the names I also have a bit of a difficulty to place where they fit into the picture, so perhaps it is a good idea to, if you are able to, just to stick to those names that these people have been referred to previously, so Scotch should be?
MR LAMEY: Okay, Mr Chairman, I take the point, I will just ask Mr Selamolela then. Mr Selamolela, I know that you, Scotch that you refer to, that is Mr Norman Mkhonza who has also been an applicant, is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: I know that you know him as Scotch and you have referred in your application to him as Scotch and you also know him by that name, but for the record here, would you just, when you refer to Scotch, would you just refer then to Mr Mkhonza or Mr Norman Mkhonza?
MR SELAMOLELA: I will do so.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR LAMEY: Could you just continue then from there on, what happened after he had the drink with this lady in the restaurant?
MR SELAMOLELA: Ms Simelane and Norman Mkhonza descended to the basement to Norman's car.
MR LAMEY: Before that happened, did you also see other members of your Unit or the Security Police around in the vicinity?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, I saw them.
MR LAMEY: What happened then further after Normal Mkhonza or Mkhonza and this lady went to the basement?
MR SELAMOLELA: When they used the "hyser" to the basement, Warrant Officer Coetzee and Sergeant Radebe they took the lady and put her in the boot, but I don't know who got hold of Mr Mkhonza at that particular time.
MR LAMEY: Was, if you say you don't know who got hold of him, but was there also something that happened to Mr Mkhonza?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, they got hold of him. It was sort of a false or a fake arrest.
MR LAMEY: Then what happened further?
MR SELAMOLELA: Sergeant Radebe and together with Ms Simelane were put in the boot of Warrant Officer Coetzee, then we followed them to Norwood, we went to, we proceeded to Norwood Married Quarters.
MR LAMEY: Did you have your own vehicle in which you followed or how did it happen?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, I was driving my own car.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall this grabbing at the Carlton Centre, what - can you recall what time of the day was it?
MR SELAMOLELA: It was in the afternoon, between four o'clock and five o'clock.
MR LAMEY: Right, and you then proceeded to the Married Quarters at Norwood?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: I take it that was Police Married Quarters?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And what transpired then further there?
MR SELAMOLELA: When we arrived at Norwood, we parked our cars at the back, there was a parking area at the back. Then Warrant Officer told us that he would be back.
MR LAMEY: And what transpired further that day?
MR SELAMOLELA: At dusk Warrant Officer Coetzee took a car and put it next to the second flat, then they took him either to the 10th or 11th floor, that is where the Security Police were working.
MR LAMEY: What transpired then there?
MR SELAMOLELA: It was at night, then Warrant Officer Coetzee and Sergeant Pretorius started with the interrogation.
MR LAMEY: Now, and can you recall what topics were discussed during the interrogation?
MR SELAMOLELA: They were asking as whether she was military trained and what was her purpose in South Africa.
MR LAMEY: Was she assaulted at that point in time?
MR SELAMOLELA: On the particular day when she was detained at Norwood flats, nobody assaulted her.
MR LAMEY: This is now the first day of ...
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, that is correct.
ADV GCABASHE : Just let's get this right, you were saying you did not see anybody assault her, not that nobody assaulted her, you did not see anybody assault her?
MR SELAMOLELA: On the first day, I did not see anybody assaulting her.
MR LAMEY: Okay. Now, did you - can I just ask you this, you have previously testified initially that you were instructed to observe what was taking place at the Carlton Centre, but you did not know really what was going to happen. Now at some point in time during that day, this person was now taken there from the Carlton Centre, was this - and you have also referred to it in your application, paragraph "arrested", did it appear to you that this arrest was a normal arrest at a certain stage, or was there something which was not usual or normal about this arrest?
MR SELAMOLELA: I thought the arrest was not usual.
MR LAMEY: And why do you say that?
MR SELAMOLELA: Because when she was arrested, she was not taken to the Police station, therefore we did not follow the right procedure of arrest because we could have taken her to the Police station and lay a charge there.
MR LAMEY: Can you - did you sleep over that first night at Norwood or what happened, did you leave at a certain stage?
MR SELAMOLELA: I left late at night, that is around 12 o'clock.
MR LAMEY: Where did you sleep?
MR SELAMOLELA: I went home.
MR LAMEY: Can you say, when you left, whether other members remained behind with her?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, there were some who were left.
MR LAMEY: Sorry the interpretation said that some left, I don't...
INTERPRETER: Were left behind.
MR LAMEY: Oh, I see. After that first night, did you at any stage attend again there at Norwood Police Quarters?
MR SELAMOLELA: I returned again, I don't know as to whether it was the following day or a day, or two days after, but I remember that I did return.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall when you returned there, well, wee you instructed to return there or how did it happen that you returned there?
MR SELAMOLELA: I was instructed to return to the Married Quarters.
MR LAMEY: During that stage, were you also involved with other work, apart from this incident?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: What kind of other word were you also busy with?
MR SELAMOLELA: It was involving the collecting of reports from the informers and to make sure that they do attend the meetings.
MR LAMEY: Okay, You testified that you can't recall whether it was the day thereafter or a further day thereafter that you attended there again at Norwood, is that correct? Was it during the afternoon or can you recall during what time of the day did you then again attend at Norwood?
MR SELAMOLELA: I don't remember, but I would say it was during the day and again, I did not sleep at Norwood, I went home to sleep.
MR LAMEY: So you did not sleep there?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: This second time that you attended there at the Norwood Quarters, did you witness anything relating to the physical appearance of this lady, Simelane?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, there is something I observed.
MR LAMEY: What did you observe?
MR SELAMOLELA: I observed that she was assaulted because her face was swollen and her lips were broken.
MR LAMEY: Sorry, the translation was now that her lips were broken, what do you mean by that?
MR SELAMOLELA: Her lower lip was cut.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall that second time that you went there at Norwood, how long did you attend there?
MR SELAMOLELA: May you please repeat the question.
MR LAMEY: The second time that you now attended at the Norwood Quarters, when you saw that she had injuries, how long did you stay there, can you recall that?
MR SELAMOLELA: I do not remember well, I went there late and then again I went back home to sleep.
MR LAMEY: Now, did you yourself, the second time did you yourself, personally, witness any assaults?
MR SELAMOLELA: I did not observe anybody assaulting her.
MR LAMEY: All right, and yourself, did you participate in any assaults on her at Norwood?
MR SELAMOLELA: I did not take part at Norwood.
MR LAMEY: You say in your application that you gathered that she was assaulted because of the injuries that you observed on her, is that correct, her swollen face and you have also now testified about the lip that was cut? Is that what made you assume that she was assaulted?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct, because at the time when she was arrested, she wasn't swollen.
MR LAMEY: Was there a change in clothing, a difference in clothing at Norwood, what I mean difference, a difference between the clothing that she had when she was arrested and any other clothing?
MR SELAMOLELA: When I returned for the second time, she was wearing a brown overall.
MR LAMEY: Do you know or can you comment whether she was interrogated at the time when you went there the second time?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, she was interrogated.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether you went to Norwood after that second time or can you recall how many times you went to Norwood?
MR SELAMOLELA: I went on two occasions, I was present on the first time and then when I returned, that is the only time I went to Norwood.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Lamey, you said she was interrogated, was it in his presence?
MR LAMEY: Maybe let me just clarify that, the second time that you visited Norwood, was she interrogated in your presence, meaning asked questions and so on, I am not referring now to assaults?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, for the first time and second time when she was interrogated, I was present.
MR LAMEY: Okay. Now, right you say you recall that you were there on two occasions, at Norwood. After that, what happened then further?
MR SELAMOLELA: After that, I received a message together with Sergeant Veyi ...
MR LAMEY: Sorry, I omitted to ask you something still at Norwood, during the time there at Norwood, can I ask you was Mr Veyi, can you recall whether he was there on the first occasion that you were there or on the second occasion?
MR SELAMOLELA: I will say he was present on the second occasion if I remember well.
MR LAMEY: Did some of the members, other members - let's refer to them the black members, did they sleep over there at Norwood?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, they were working on shifts, so there were those who were sleeping on the first day and those who would sleep on the next day.
MR LAMEY: Okay, sorry I interrupted you. Then, now after this, your visits there at Norwood, or your attendance at Norwood Quarters, what happened further?
MR SELAMOLELA: She was taken to a farm in Northum.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall with who did you go there?
MR SELAMOLELA: I was together with Sergeant Veyi because we received an instruction that we should go to Northum Police station, then they would find us there.
MR LAMEY: Who gave you the instruction to go to Northum Police station?
MR SELAMOLELA: Warrant Officer Coetzee gave me the instruction.
MR LAMEY: And then what transpired then further there?
MR SELAMOLELA: When we arrived at the Police station, I don't remember who came to collect us at the Police station, then we proceeded to the farm where Ms Simelane was held.
MR LAMEY: Can I ask you, can you give an indication how according to your own memory or estimation, how long was she kept at Norwood?
MR SELAMOLELA: I would say it was approximately a week.
MR LAMEY: And when you arrived at this farm in Northum, was she already there or did she arrive the same day as you arrived there or how did it happen?
MR SELAMOLELA: I don't know when she arrived there, but when we arrived, she was already there.
MR LAMEY: Can you tell me how long, when you went there first to this farm in Northum, did you have to sleep over there?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, we slept over there.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall on this first occasion that you visited this farm where she was kept, how long did you stay there?
MR SELAMOLELA: For the first time, we stayed three to four days, that is for the first time.
MR LAMEY: So your first visit on the farm, you stayed there three to four days and you slept over there, is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And when you left there after the three to four days that you slept there, were you relieved by anyone else, by other members?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Can you remember - where was she kept on this farm?
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Lamey, while you are there, could you perhaps give us the names who relieved him and who were with him on the farm?
MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman, can you recall at all Mr Selamolela of the members that slept over with you during your first visit to the farm, who were they? Can you remember any of them and if so, who were they?
MR SELAMOLELA: During the first visit it was myself and Sergeant Veyi and Warrant Officer Coetzee and Sergeant Pretorius and Sergeant Matiba, together with Sergeant Radebe.
ADV GCABASHE : I missed the last bit, are you saying that Sergeant Matiba and Radebe relieved you or are you saying that they were with you the first time you slept there for about three to four nights?
MR SELAMOLELA: When we arrived at the farm, I don't remember whom we found, but the person who was there was Warrant Officer Coetzee and Warrant Officer Pretorius, myself and Sergeant Veyi, we slept together those three to four days with Sergeant Radebe and Matiba. I don't know as to whether Sergeant Matiba returned with us, but the one I remember well as to the point that he returned with us, is Sergeant Radebe.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall at all whether Coetzee and Pretorius slept over there?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, they slept at that farm.
MR LAMEY: Could there also have been other members that during those three to four days that you stayed there at the first occasion, could there also have been other members that you can't now recall specifically?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is possible because we were many.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall with whom did you return after you slept there on the first occasion?
MR SELAMOLELA: I returned with Sergeant Veyi.
ADV GCABASHE : And Sergeant Radebe?
MR SELAMOLELA: He stayed behind, I only left with Sergeant Veyi. I don't know as to whether he left after we had left.
MR LAMEY: Is it correct Mr Selamolela, is it a correct assumption from my part to say that ...
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Lamey, I think there may be a misunderstanding, I think that is why my colleague asked this question, because just a moment before he said something "Radebe returned with us", could you just clarify that?
MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman, yes. I also thought that I heard that Mr Chairman. Just to get clarity on this Mr Selamolela, I know it is a long time ago and you are asked to recall and you must tell if you can't recall specifically, but can you recall about Radebe, after you slept there on the first occasion, three to four nights, did he return with you back to Soweto or did he remain behind or what is the situation?
MR SELAMOLELA: I don't know as to whether he remained behind, I left with Sergeant Veyi, I don't know as to whether he left and came back.
MR LAMEY: And Matiba, can you recall anything about him?
MR SELAMOLELA: I don't know as to whether we left him behind or when we were off duty, he was also off duty. I can't remember.
ADV GCABASHE : Again, then just clarify, when you went up to Northum, were you alone in your motor vehicle with Mr Veyi?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, I was only with Sergeant Veyi when we went to Northum for the first time.
ADV GCABASHE : And of the black Officers, you found Mr Matiba and Mr Radebe at the farm?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE : Thank you.
MR LAMEY: Okay, what was the purpose of you going with Veyi to the farm at Northum?
MR SELAMOLELA: I thought we were going to help with security and the interpretation because she was guarded 24 hours.
MR LAMEY: Sorry, the translation was security, but I have heard you using the word "guard" yourself, is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, I meant to put guard.
MR LAMEY: Mr Selamolela, can you recall how many times did you visit, on how many occasions did you visit the farm at Northum?
MR SELAMOLELA: I went on two occasions, I went during the first week and then I went on the fourth week.
MR LAMEY: You say the second occasion was during the fourth week?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: How long did you stay there on the second occasion?
MR SELAMOLELA: I don't remember well, it may happen that we stayed for a week or four days.
MR LAMEY: Four days to a week?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall at all on the second occasion when you went there, with whom did you go there? Did you go with anybody in particular and return with that same person that you went there, or how did it work?
MR SELAMOLELA: It may happen that I went together with Sergeant Veyi and then again I returned with him.
MR LAMEY: Also on the second occasion?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now, is it possible that the other members that stayed there during the time that you stayed at Northum, in both occasions, were not always the same, in other words there were different people, different black members at different times at this farm in Northum?
MR SELAMOLELA: May you please repeat your question.
MR LAMEY: Were there different black members on the occasions that you visited the farm, or spent time on the farm, in other words did the people, the black members come and go and relieved in shifts so to speak?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct, they would come and leave because we were many.
MR LAMEY: Is it possible that Mr Veyi was there on more than two occasions than you?
MR SELAMOLELA: That may be possible.
ADV GCABASHE : But tell me, how would you know who was at the farm when you were back in Johannesburg? Is this something you discussed, just give me an idea as to how you would know what was going on at the farm?
MR SELAMOLELA: Those who would be left, they would be relieving us then I would be able to notice the identity of the people who would remain behind.
ADV GCABASHE : Yes, but you were away for a long period between your first and your second visit, now how would you know how many shifts there had been in the four weeks that you were away or the three weeks that you were away from the farm, just help me there?
MR SELAMOLELA: I would put it this way, when I went for the first time, there were Police Officers who were there, black Police Officers and then when I went for the second time, I found a certain group there, though I am not able to remember the identity of those.
ADV GCABASHE : The question really is in part, let's use Mr Veyi as an example, how would you know that he had been there on more than two occasions, you are certain of two because you were with him, but how would you know that he had been there on more than two occasions?
MR SELAMOLELA: If he was not at work or in the office, I would assume that he was at the farm, then if he was present at the office, I would know that he was not at the farm.
MR LAMEY: Mr Selamolela, in other words, you returned back to base and your office at Soweto, is that correct, after you had been the farm? Is that correct?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And back at the branch in Soweto, you would then also learn that some other people are going, coming and going to the farm and back?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct, yes.
MR LAMEY: Just to get back to one aspect, can you remember where on this particular farm, in what circumstances was she kept at the farm?
MR SELAMOLELA: There was an outside room at the farm, which was not far from the main house, she was kept in that outside room and then she was cuffed on the legs, and then she was wearing an overall.
MR LAMEY: All right, let us just take it step by step in the occasions that you visited there, and if you can't put a certain aspect in terms of one of a certain occasion that you were there, you must please say so. On the first occasion that you were there, was she wearing this brown overall?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, that is correct, she wore that from Norwood and then she went down with it.
MR LAMEY: And how - was she cuffed at all?
MR SELAMOLELA: She was cuffed on the legs and at times she would be handcuffed.
MR LAMEY: Was she most of the time then cuffed on her legs and on certain times, also the hands? Is that what you are saying?
MR SELAMOLELA: At all times she was handcuffed and cuffed on the legs, but when she was interrogated, they would loosen the cuffs on the hands and then she was always cuffed on the legs.
MR LAMEY: Is this on the first occasion or on both occasions?
MR SELAMOLELA: Both these occasions.
MR LAMEY: On the first occasion that you went there, was she interrogated in your presence?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Who, can you recall who led the interrogation?
MR SELAMOLELA: Warrant Officer Coetzee.
MR LAMEY: On your visit to Northum, did you learn more about this person that was now kidnapped from the Carlton Centre, as to what she was doing and from who did you learn it?
MR SELAMOLELA: Warrant Officer Coetzee informed us that Ms Simelane is a trained cadre and then she was on a mission in South Africa.
ADV GCABASHE : Yes, Mr Lamey, just clarify this for us, when did he tell you this, I am not too sure about this?
MR LAMEY: When did you learn this for the first time?
MR SELAMOLELA: He informed us at Norwood and again, he repeated that at the farm in Northum.
MR LAMEY: Okay, now can you recall on the first occasion in Northum, in general, what was the interrogation about? What information was wanted from Ms Simelane?
MR SELAMOLELA: Warrant Officer Coetzee was asking her about members of MK who were trained and who were now in South Africa and about her mission and about the arms inside the country.
ADV DE JAGER: The last - the "umps" in the country?
INTERPRETER: Arms.
ADV DE JAGER: Arms?
MR LAMEY: Was she - did she cooperate in divulging the information or what transpired?
MR SELAMOLELA: She denied that she did not know anything.
ADV GCABASHE : Can you say that again.
MR SELAMOLELA: She denied and said that she did not know anything.
MR LAMEY: During this interrogation, did you witness any assaults on her?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, she was assaulted whilst she was interrogated.
MR LAMEY: And I am talking about specifically, if you can recall on the first occasion, if you can't distinguish on the first or second occasion, you must please say so, but on the first occasion, can you recall how she was assaulted?
MR SELAMOLELA: They would use a hood on the head and then they would use electric shocks.
MR LAMEY: A hood on the head, sorry, I ...
ADV DE JAGER: Was it a bag that they used on her head?
MR SELAMOLELA: It is a bag like the money bag used at the bank.
MR LAMEY: What was the purpose of using the bag?
MR SELAMOLELA: It was used because she was saying she was not trained, therefore they would put, they would suffocate her with that bag.
MR LAMEY: All right, and what else did you witness, what form of assaults did you witness, that you can recall?
MR SELAMOLELA: And then again she was kicked, then she was hit with fists and she was kicked.
MR LAMEY: Did you assist in any manner during the interrogation and if you assisted, in what way did you assist, I am talking about specifically the interrogation part?
MR SELAMOLELA: There would be a time when I would grab her when she was screaming, or again I would put the bag while she was assaulted.
MR LAMEY: Did you put the bag on alone or how did it happen? Who came forward with the bag, who had the bag with him?
MR SELAMOLELA: Warrant Officer Coetzee.
MR LAMEY: Would you take the bag from him and put it over her head or how did it happen?
MR SELAMOLELA: Coetzee would inform, would instruct me to put the bag on her head, so that I would suffocate her. Then somebody would grab her legs and somebody would grab her hands.
MR LAMEY: Then, do I take it that in other occasions you assisted by holding her while she was assaulted by other members?
MR SELAMOLELA: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Did you yourself, I am talking about you personally, did you administer any kick or other, participated in other ways that you have described?
MR SELAMOLELA: I did not assault her in any way other than putting the bag on her head and holding her.
MR LAMEY: Okay, now, during this first period that you stayed at Northum, apart from what you have mentioned, the hitting and the kicking and the bag, can you recall on this first occasion any other form of torture or assault that was used?
MR SELAMOLELA: At the time when she looked like losing her breath, Warrant Officer Coetzee would instruct Radebe to put her in the little dam.
ADV GCABASHE : You - to put her into the dam or to throw her into the dam?
MR SELAMOLELA: He would throw her in the dam, holding her overall. He would put her head in the dam and take her out again, but he was not throwing her and leaving her.
MR LAMEY: What kind of dam was it?
MR SELAMOLELA: It was built with iron, iron zinc.
ADV GCABASHE : Corrugated iron.
INTERPRETER: Corrugated iron, yes.
MR LAMEY: You have already told us the way, is there any other way that you can recall on the first period that you stayed there in the manner that she was assaulted?
MR SELAMOLELA: I think I have stated all methods of assault.
MR LAMEY: Now, what would happen with her during the assaults, did she suffer injuries and what generally happened with her as a result of these assaults?
MR SELAMOLELA: Her face was scary because it was swollen, it was round, she had blue eyes, red eyes and then she was not able to walk because she was injured by the cuffs and she was not able to walk. And then her lip or her lips were cut.
MR LAMEY: Now, in consultation one, if you can just go to paragraph 6, a certain sentence in paragraph 6 was discussed with you where you say
"... it was my first experience of someone being assaulted by the Security Police."
I just want you to clarify that at this stage, was it your first experience of assaults or what did you want to convey here?
MR SELAMOLELA: I was saying it was my first experience to observe a person being tortured in that way.
MR LAMEY: Did you previously experience a certain measure of assault on a detainee before this incident?
MR SELAMOLELA: I don't remember as to whether it was the first time, it was before this incident or after this incident, but this was the first of its kind.
MR LAMEY: If you say it was the first of its kind, what really do you mean by that?
MR SELAMOLELA: This one was severe.
MR LAMEY: Now, the second time you have testified you visited the farm during the fourth week ...
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Lamey, before you go there, can you just explain to us, the electric shocks, electrical shocks that you referred to, just give us details of that. What was actually done to Ms Simelane?
MR SELAMOLELA: It was a machine which was operated through batteries, if I remember well, it was a small machine. It was smaller than a half a loaf and it was operated with batteries, it had two cables and then it was wounded. Then they would put the cables on her neck, then they would wind, Warrant Officer Coetzee would wind this machine, then she would scream at that time, because she was choking.
ADV GCABASHE : Again I wasn't sure if the cables were on the legs or on the neck?
INTERPRETER: It was on the neck.
CHAIRPERSON: You say that she would scream. When would she scream?
MR SELAMOLELA: She would scream when she was assaulted and then again when she was electrocuted.
CHAIRPERSON: At what point would she scream? Would it be when he was winding up the machine or when he was putting on the cables, connecting the cables to her neck or when, at what stage, what would make her scream?
MR SELAMOLELA: Because of the shocks from that machine, then at that particular time when she experiences those shocks, she would start screaming.
CHAIRPERSON: When does the machine work, when does it shock you? Is it when it is being wound up or at what stage, how does one make or cause the machine to administer shocks to a person?
MR SELAMOLELA: You would experience the shocks immediately when the machine is wound.
CHAIRPERSON: Was this done a number of times on this first occasion or was it only done once to her, can you give us some idea?
MR SELAMOLELA: The electric, that machine was used once. I don't know whether as to whether it was for the first occasion or during the second occasion, but it was used once in the particular occasion.
ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, could you just explain, you said it was used once on a particular occasion, you can't remember the first or second, could you kindly explain was it used on the first occasion as well as on the second occasion or was it used only once, but you can't remember on which occasion?
MR SELAMOLELA: I do not remember as to whether it was the first occasion or the second occasion, but it was used once in my presence.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it used after she had denied that she knows anything about the topics that she was interrogated about?
MR SELAMOLELA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Lamey, have you got any further questions arising from this particular, before you get to the second incident, second occasion, I am sorry.
MR LAMEY: No Mr Chairman, I am on the point to start, I don't have any questions on this, I think this aspect has been covered thank you. Will this be a convenient stage to adjourn Mr Chairman?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I assume that it will take you a while to take through the rest of the evidence in chief?
MR LAMEY: Yes, I've still got some questions to ask, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, under those circumstances, we will adjourn the proceedings and we will reconvene in this venue, tomorrow morning at half past nine. We are adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
