MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, the next amnesty applicant is Christopher Mosiane.
CHRISTOPHER MOSIANE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lamey?
EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Chairperson, before I start, I just want to get clarity on the language aspect here. Chairperson, the witness has indicated that he wishes the questions to be translated to him in Sotho. Mr Mosiane, you have applied for amnesty to the Amnesty Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, for various incidents that you were involved in, is that correct, of amongst, one of them, the Japie Maponya incident, the kidnapping of Japie Maponya?
MR MOSIANE: Yes Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: Just speak in the microphone when you answer.
MR MOSIANE: Yes, Mr Chairman.
MR LAMEY: You have in the Bundle, which I am showing to you now, is it correct that you have made an initial application in your own handwriting, which we find on page 491 - sorry, I just see here there is something that doesn't appear to be correct. Mr Mosiane, the first application starts from page 491 and on page 492, is that correct, 493 doesn't appear to be your handwriting, just have a look at that? Sorry, this is your initial application, is that correct, up to page 497, is that correct? Okay, some of the information were filled in by yourself and some of the information it appears to be someone else, is that correct, but it is your signature on page 497, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: Yes.
MR LAMEY: And then there is a typed portion which, from your initial application, page 498 up to page 505, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: 506?
MR LAMEY: And then 507, yes, 506 yes Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: 506 is number 9, yes.
MR LAMEY: And then we have a hand-written portion on page 507, up to 525, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR MALAN: That is simply the original of the typed version which is on 498 to 506?
MR LAMEY: Yes. Yes, indeed Mr Chairperson. The original, a copy of the original in your own handwriting, is 507 to 525, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And then you have after you have obtained legal representation, there was a supplemented application, which we find at page 527 up to 542, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Mr Mosiane, do you still confirm to the best of your ability and memory and knowledge, the correctness of what is stated in your amnesty application as supplemented later in your supplemented application?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: On page 537 to specifically 540, you have given the nature and particulars relating to the Japie Maponya incident, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: You applied for amnesty for your participation in the kidnapping of Japie Maponya and to say your omission as a policeman to report his kidnapping to the authorities after you saw that he was kidnapped and interrogated and assaulted or any other offence or delict that can be inferred from the facts, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Can you just shortly state at the time of, when you became involved with Japie Maponya in Krugersdorp, how long were you an askari?
CHAIRPERSON: The abduction took place on the 25th of, was it of September, 1985 and the question was for how long, by that date, had you been an askari?
MR LAMEY: At Vlakplaas?
MR MOSIANE: Chairperson, I hope that at that time, it was about six to eight months being a member of the askari group.
MR LAMEY: Mr Chairperson, I am perhaps on the wrong channel, which channel is the translation?
CHAIRPERSON: The English is on 2.
MR LAMEY: Sorry, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he says that at the time he had been an askari for plus minus six to eight months. I don't know if you were on the Afrikaans channel Mr Lamey?
MR LAMEY: Yes, possibly, but I am sure I've got that right now. The background to you becoming an askari was that you were abducted, is that correct, in 1984 from Swaziland, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And the people who were involved in your abduction, was Warrant Officer Freek Pienaar and Captain Deetlefts of the Eastern Transvaal Security Police, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: You have said that all in your background, I am not going to repeat that in detail, it is just to - did you know Mr Mosiane, Mr Oderele Maponya, before you joined eventually, were involved with the Security Police and started doing work for them?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Can you explain how did you know him?
MR MOSIANE: Before I, Christopher Rabutlelo Mosiane being kidnapped in Swaziland, I was a member of MK from 1976 to the date when I was kidnapped on the 14th of April 1984 in Swaziland by the people I have already mentioned, one of them is Warrant Officer Pienaar, who is behind me. Oderele Maponya used to be called Mainstay. I was the one who trained him after I received training. He belonged to the earlier group which received training at Novukatenga in Angola. Their detachment was called June 16. I was Oderele Maponya's instructor up to the point when we took part in the campaign where we struggled together in Angola, that is Eastern Flat. I was together with Oderele Maponya, fighting against UNITA. I am talking about the person whom I know much, whom I lived with, who was my comrade.
MR LAMEY: Now, at the time when you went to Krugersdorp and you received instructions to approach Japie Maponya, did you know whether Oderele was active in the Republic?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Let me just ask you another thing Mr Mosiane, before the day on which you approached Mr Maponya at the bank in Krugersdorp where he worked as a security guard, at any time before that, did you also work in the Krugersdorp area?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Was it also a contingent of Vlakplaas that you worked with in the Krugersdorp area?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: In which area did you specifically work in Krugersdorp?
MR MOSIANE: For us to be in Krugersdorp, according to the information given by Krugersdorp Security Branch, we were looking for Oderele, Mainstay, Maponya.
MR LAMEY: Could you recall how long before this day on which you approached Japie Maponya at the bank, was this group of yours working in the Krugersdorp area, looking for Oderele Maponya?
MR MOSIANE: Let us put it this way, before we went to Josini and coming back, I worked in Krugersdorp before for a duration of three weeks. At the time when I was sent to infiltrate Japie Maponya, I have already worked in Kagiso before.
MR LAMEY: So you say it was the Kagiso area that you worked in order also to look for the whereabouts of Oderele Maponya, is that correct, before the day that you attempted to infiltrate Japie Maponya?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson. Kagiso is a black township of Krugersdorp.
ADV GCABASHE: Can I just ask you Mr Mosiane, who had instructed you to go on that particular mission, the one before Josini, looking for Oderele?
MR MOSIANE: At times the Branches would request askaris from Head Office, from the South African Police, then the Head Office through Colonel De Kock, would be able to deploy various units to various places which had made a request for askaris to come and help them. So it is my belief that we went to Krugersdorp because of the request of the Special Branch in Krugersdorp.
ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but did Mr De Kock instruct you in particular with whoever else from Vlakplaas, to go there?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct, that is Mr De Kock, that is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.
MR LAMEY: At the time when you were looking for Oderele Maponya in the Kagiso area in Krugersdorp, was there information given by the Krugersdorp Security Branch or reasons given to believe that he is in that specific area?
MR MOSIANE: I don't remember well about the details of that briefing. What I am sure of is we were working in Krugersdorp because Oderele Maponya was born in Krugersdorp and it was heard that he was involved in various operations which happened there.
MR LAMEY: You have set out the details in your written amnesty application, I just want to know when you were sent to approach Japie Maponya, what did you have to do? How, what was the, how did you, what was the method or the tactic used to approach him?
MR MOSIANE: I was supposed that when I arrived there, I should disguise myself as an MK operative and try to win his confidence, then he would be able to tell me about Oderele's whereabouts. I would be able to report back that what I learnt from Japie Maponya.
MR LAMEY: You state here on paragraph 4 of page 5 that you approached him, was this approach successful or unsuccessful to pose as an MK in order to get information from him?
MR MOSIANE: It was not successful Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: You state here in paragraph 4 that the moment you enquired about his brother and indicated that you wished to make contact with him, he became suspicious and nervous and appeared to be what you would describe as jumpy, is that correct?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: You further have stated that you were in a vehicle, what vehicle were you in after that, when the abduction took place?
MR MOSIANE: We were driving a VW panel van.
MR LAMEY: Were you among the members in that panel van under some supervision by anyone?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson, the person who was our Team Leader in that particular vehicle which I worked with, was Sergeant Simon Radebe.
MR LAMEY: You were not involved in the kidnapping as such, is that correct, you witnessed it?
MR MOSIANE: No Chairperson, I didn't play a role.
ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Mr Lamey, he was asked two questions and he gave one answer, the one was involved in the kidnapping and witnessing? It is no to involved in the kidnapping and the answer to witnessing the kidnapping?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson, I witnessed the kidnapping.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.
MR LAMEY: And can you recall who were the people that did the actual abduction in Krugersdorp?
MR MOSIANE: I saw three people, that is Almond Nofemela, Johannes Thabelo Mbelo and then again Moses Nzimande.
MR LAMEY: You have listened to the evidence here, Mr Mbelo and Mr Nofemela, they were both permanent policemen, is that correct?
INTERPRETER: May you please repeat again? May you please repeat the question.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the Interpreter would like the question repeated. I will do it. Is it correct that Mr Mbelo and Mr Nofemela were members of the Police Force?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: And Mr Nzimande?
MR MOSIANE: He was an askari.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall yourself, apart from yourself and Mr Nzimande, of any other askaris that were involved in the kidnapping and the subsequent later interrogation at Vlakplaas?
MR MOSIANE: No Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Was Japie ever in your vehicle until you arrived at Vlakplaas?
MR MOSIANE: No Mr Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Mr Mosiane, were you present at the interrogation at Vlakplaas?
MR MOSIANE: Correct Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: When did you arrive there? How did you find the situation when you arrived there, was Japie already there, were there other members or what was the position?
MR MOSIANE: We arrived seconds after Japie and company had arrived at Vlakplaas. When we arrived at Vlakplaas, it was clear that Japie Maponya, that the interrogation had already started, it was minutes after or seconds after the interrogation had started because the first thing which I heard and which I observed when we arrived there, I could hear the, I smelt teargas smoke. When we arrived there at that particular place, that is the place we called the shooting range, I saw a E20 white panel van. Next to that one, there were two bakkies which parked at a distance from the panel van. At that time Japie Maponya was inside the panel van and then he was laying on the floor, then he was covered with a balaclava. I remember the colour of the balaclava was blue. It was turned around. I have already said that when we disembarked from the kombi, I could smell the teargas smoke. When we disembarked from the Volkswagen, we found other white members leaning against the vans which were parked there. We went directly to the E20 kombi where Japie was inside. We smelt teargas inside the kombi and at the time, it was still strong. Eric Sefadi was in my team together with Simon Radebe. When they arrived, they rushed to that place to help with Japie's interrogation. The teargas inside the kombi was very strong, then Japie had to be pulled out of the kombi and be put on the ground. That is where the interrogation continued.
MR LAMEY: Did you yourself, participate in any assaults during the interrogation there?
MR MOSIANE: No Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Did you receive any orders after the interrogation was finished?
MR MOSIANE: Yes Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Just tell us about that, from who did you receive the orders and what was the orders?
MR MOSIANE: Instructions which we received before, it was straight forward from De Kock, that we should disperse and go to our various places.
MR LAMEY: Did you have to report for duty the following day?
MR MOSIANE: No Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Mr Mosiane, I just want to show you also page 541, the political objective as you have stated it there, we have gone through it also and in consultation, is that correct, you confirm what is stated there as from your perspective, the political objective, is that correct, page 541 and 542.
MR MOSIANE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, that is the evidence in chief, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hattingh?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mosiane, I would just like to get clarity on the sequence of events. Are you saying that some time before you went to Josini, you received instructions to go to the Kagiso area to look for Mr Oderele Maponya?
MR MOSIANE: I want to remind Mr Flip Hattingh that I am going to respond to his questions with humility, because he would repeat the questions he asked me at the De Kock trial, I would try to respond with humility. I am not schooled in etiquette, but I will try to be polite to answer the questions from Mr Flip Hattingh. Mr Flip Hattingh, I want to remind you that you in this case of Mr De Kock, are principally the reason why Mr De Kock got more than 212 years and two life sentences. Mr Flip Hattingh, you technically represent Mr De Kock right now, but in actual fact, you represent yourself because you Mr Flip Hattingh,
you have made a very big scoop from the proceedings of that trial, Mr Flip Hattingh.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think ...
MR MOSIANE: Excuse me, because you Mr Flip Hattingh, you are a dishonest man, but you are a learned man.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mosiane ...
MR LAMEY: Sorry Mr Chairman, may I with the permission of the Committee, could I just have a word with Mr Mosiane please.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
CHRISTOPHER MOSIANE: (s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mosiane, you have given evidence and now Mr Hattingh, who is representing an applicant as well, has the right to cross-examine you, so if you could please just confine what you say, to answering the questions, that is the procedure, thank you.
The question was before going to Josini, did you receive instructions to go to Kagiso to look for Oderele?
MR MOSIANE: No Mr Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: (continued)
Did you go to Kagiso area, Krugersdorp area, to go and look for Mr Maponya before you went to Josini, to look for Mr Oderele Maponya?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: When was that Mr Mosiane? When did you go to Krugersdorp to look for Oderele Maponya?
MR MOSIANE: It happened before, before I was sent to go to him. It may be two to three months before we went to Josini.
MR HATTINGH: So it was some two to three months before, quite a long time before you went to Josini?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And who gave you instructions on that occasion to go and look for Mr Oderele Maponya?
MR MOSIANE: I have already explained that for Vlakplaas to deploy Units to various places, it does so because of the request of various Security Branches and then we would receive our instructions from Mr De Kock.
MR HATTINGH: But do you recall Mr De Kock giving you such instructions or are you just inferring that it must have been him?
MR MOSIANE: Before we leave, we used to hold a briefing session where this Units are instructed individually to various leaders and that you would be sent to various places, for example Eastern Transvaal, Western Cape, etc. The person who would brief us when the Units are deployed, is Mr De Kock.
MR HATTINGH: Yes, all right, I will leave it at that.
ADV GCABASHE: Mr Hattingh, just, are you saying that on this particular occasion Mr De Kock instructed you to go to Krugersdorp, those - whenever that was, to look for Oderele Maponya?
MR MOSIANE: Prior to the kidnap, yes.
ADV GCABASHE: Yes, thank you.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now, did you achieve any success in your search for Mr Maponya on that occasion?
MR MOSIANE: No Chairperson, we were not able.
MR HATTINGH: And did you report back to Mr De Kock that you were unable to gather any information about the whereabouts of Mr Oderele Maponya?
MR MOSIANE: That is how it used to happen, not like that.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't understand, what was your answer, sorry could you just repeat please. The question was did you report back yes, after that first attempt to find Oderele, did you report back to Mr De Kock about your inability to locate him?
MR MOSIANE: To find Oderele, I now understand, yes, that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: All right, then you are sent to Josini and did you know before you departed for Josini that you had to be back at Krugersdorp on the 25th to look for Mr Oderele Maponya once again?
MR MOSIANE: No Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: When did you learn that you had to come back to Pretoria in order to go and look for Mr Oderele Maponya and where were you when you found out about that?
MR MOSIANE: I learnt that at Vlakplaas Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that after you returned from Josini?
MR MOSIANE: Yes Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Who told you that you had to come back to Pretoria, to Vlakplaas?
MR MOSIANE: I was under the command of Willie Nortje when we were at Josini.
MR HATTINGH: Did he tell you that you had to come back, that you had to return?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did he tell you why you had to come back?
MR MOSIANE: No Chairperson, he did not.
MR HATTINGH: And then, did you arrive at Vlakplaas on the same day that you departed from Josini?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Can you tell us what time of the day it was when you arrived at Vlakplaas?
MR MOSIANE: I think it was during the day, it was during the day because we left early in the morning.
MR HATTINGH: And when did you then receive instructions to go to Krugersdorp?
MR MOSIANE: On our arrival Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: The very same day that you departed from Josini, you received the instructions at Vlakplaas to go to Krugersdorp, is that what you are saying?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And did you go to Krugersdorp on that very same day?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Who gave you the instructions Mr Mosiane?
MR MOSIANE: That is Mr De Kock, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: At Vlakplaas?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And did you shortly after he gave you those instructions, depart for Krugersdorp?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And what exactly were his instructions to you, Mr Mosiane?
MR MOSIANE: I am talking about myself, I am not talking about we or other people, I am talking about myself and the instructions I received from Mr De Kock.
CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Hattingh wants to know is what was the nature of those orders, those instructions? What did he tell you to do?
MR MOSIANE: I received instructions from Mr De Kock that there is a certain place in Krugersdorp where Mr Japie Maponya was working and that Japie Maponya is the brother to Oderele, Mainstay, Maponya, that I should go to Japie Maponya and disguise myself as a member of MK then try to take information about the movements, activities and the whereabouts about Mr Maponya.
MR HATTINGH: Were you alone or was there anybody with you when you were given those instructions?
MR MOSIANE: When I received that instruction, De Kock was instructing me directly in the presence of other people.
MR HATTINGH: Who were the other people who were present?
MR MOSIANE: Before me there was Snor Vermeulen, he was working something on the car, then next to me, it was Willie Nortje and De Kock who was giving me instructions at that time.
MR HATTINGH: So Mr Snor Vermeulen was working on a vehicle there, but was he within hearing distance from where you and Mr De Kock were talking?
MR MOSIANE: It depends how far he can hear, if he didn't have ear problems, he would be able to hear from that distance.
MR HATTINGH: All right, and you say that Mr Nortje was also present when you received these instructions?
MR MOSIANE: I think so Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Are you not sure?
MR MOSIANE: I believe he was present.
MR HATTINGH: How were you told to disguise yourself?
MR MOSIANE: I was instructed that when I arrived there, I should pretend to be a member of MK.
MR HATTINGH: Were you given any object to assist you in this regard?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson, they gave me a Makarov pistol.
MR HATTINGH: Who gave you the pistol?
MR MOSIANE: It was given to me by Nortje.
MR HATTINGH: Where, where were you when you were handed the pistol?
MR MOSIANE: I was at Vlakplaas at that time.
MR HATTINGH: And were you supposed to go there by yourself or was there anybody supposed to accompany you Mr Mosiane?
CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about the approach to Mr Maponya or just to travel to Krugersdorp?
MR HATTINGH: To travel there and approach Mr Maponya, Mr Chairperson.
MR MOSIANE: From Vlakplaas, I was going together with a Unit because we were a team, but when I had to approach Mr Maponya, when we arrived at Krugersdorp and entering the bank, I should enter alone.
MR HATTINGH: Why did you have to have other members accompanying you to Krugersdorp?
MR MOSIANE: I think that was the culture.
MR HATTINGH: I see. And so who travelled with you to Krugersdorp?
MR MOSIANE: Inside that kombi it was Simon Radebe, who was the Team Leader and then Eric Sefadi and Rabutlelo Christopher Mosiane, that is myself, then Eric Maluleka and then others whom I am not able to remember now.
MR HATTINGH: Are you certain that Mr Sefadi was one of these people, Eric Sefadi?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Because we act for him as well, and our instructions are that he was not present on this occasion, that he did not accompany you or any other person to Krugersdorp on the day that Mr Maponya was abducted?
MR MOSIANE: Chairperson, I do not understand how that affects me.
CHAIRPERSON: You say, you have said something, you have said that Mr Sefadi was in the kombi with you when you went to Krugersdorp, now all that Mr Hattingh is saying is that he also acts for Mr Sefadi, and his instructions are that Mr Sefadi was not there with you. In other words if Mr Sefadi were to give evidence here, he would contradict you on this point, and say he wasn't there. He is saying what do you have to say about that? Who is correct, are you certain that it was, that he was there, is Mr Sefadi incorrect?
MR MOSIANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I insist Sefadi was present.
MR HATTINGH: Are you also certain about Mr Maluleka?
MR MOSIANE: I remember so Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Could you be mistaken?
MR MOSIANE: I may be Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Yes, very well. Did you have to make any preparations before you departed for Krugersdorp to go and speak to Mr Maponya, Mr Japie Maponya?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: What preparations did you have to make?
MR MOSIANE: We made a plan that the car which we were using, we should not be parked where Japie Maponya would be able to see or would see me disembarking from the kombi.
MR HATTINGH: Anything else?
MR MOSIANE: And that when we arrived there, I would disembark from the kombi, then I would go to the bank on foot, I would introduce myself inside the bank. I have already explained that he would be alone, wearing a blue uniform, that is the security uniform.
MR HATTINGH: Yes, but now at that stage Mr Mosiane, when you were given these instructions, were you told that if you did not succeed to gain the confidence of Mr Maponya and to obtain information about his brother's whereabouts, that something else would have to be done to him?
MR MOSIANE: No Chairperson, I was not told.
MR HATTINGH: So at that stage, there was no talk of an abduction?
MR MOSIANE: That is correct Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairperson, I notice that it is five past four, I think I will be a little while longer with this witness Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. We have come to the end of the day's proceedings, we will continue tomorrow at this venue, at half past nine in the morning. We will accordingly adjourn now until half past nine tomorrow morning, thank you.
MS LOCKHAT: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
