Amnesty Hearings

MR BOOYENS: I call Mr Baker, Mr Chairman, page 117.

MR SIBANYONI: For record purposes your full names, Mr Baker?

MR BAKER: Adrian David Baker.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: You may be seated, thank you. Sworn in Mr Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, I am instructed by my Attorney that once again as on a previous occasion, the schedule that is in your possession, was - ended up in the hands of the Witness Protection people, but my learned friend apparently has been given the one that contains the corrections and he said he would put it in front of the Commission.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, those are the documents which I received last week, and those were handed to you as well, we did make copies available.

MR BOOYENS: There is no substantial difference, if necessary we can look for it Mr Chairman, we can basically stick to what is in the schedule. Mr Baker, you've got in front of you your amnesty application, appearing at page 117 of the record in this matter, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And you have already testified on the same introduction to your applications in other matters, and you confirm the correctness of what is written here in, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Very well, let's deal with the specific incident relating to the death of the late Mr Brian Ngqulunga on the 19th of July 1990. Is it correct that at that stage you were the second in command of Vlakplaas?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And before this incident, you state that during July you were approached by Col de Kock, the then OC of Vlakplaas?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And what did Mr de Kock at that stage inform you, what did he want you to do, this is now only the two of you at this stage?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, at that stage Mr de Kock informed me that a former member of the ANC who had joined us, the deceased, Brian Ngqulunga, had rejoined the ANC and that he was acting as a double-agent.

MR BOOYENS: If you use the word rejoined the ANC, are you, it is not a question of formally joining or resigning or something like that, he shifted his loyalties, his loyalties have shifted back?

MR BAKER: He shifted his allegiance back to the ANC, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Very well. Now, did you know Mr Ngqulunga?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Were you aware that he was working in the postal section of Security Head Quarters?

MR BAKER: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: You heard the evidence given by Mr de Kock about the rather surprisingly lack security in connection with highly confidential documents and secret documents that seemed to have existed inside the building where the Security Police had its Head Office, can you confirm that that was the case, from personal knowledge?

MR BAKER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: From personal knowledge?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now, you made a statement, you make the statement at page 134, the third paragraph, about the death of policemen or the possible death of policemen, can you just elaborate on that?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, at that stage a number of policemen had been the subject of attacks, murders, their homes have been burnt, etc, and especially in the East Rand and that information passed out by this person, could possibly have led to some of these attacks.

MR BOOYENS: Now, you then deal at page 135 just with the methods used, I do not think, I think this Commission has heard enough about the method used from the other side to kill these people, you just ask that this be incorporated, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now, a further risk with a former askari talking, was of course the fact that there were still askaris in the service of the police, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And these askaris, you make the statement that the identification of askaris, led to the exposure of covert operations and they had reason to fear exposure of themselves which was a certain death warrant. Was there an uneasiness or rumours anything of that nature, relating to the deceased at an earlier stage or what is the position in so far as the askaris and their fears, are concerned?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, at an earlier stage and at that stage I don't think that Mr Ngqulunga was trusted by the askaris any longer.

MR BOOYENS: He had been, you heard ...

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask you something before we go on, we have heard about the fact that there were negotiations taking place, the ANC was unbanned?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that have made the askaris feel any safer, or would it in fact have made them feel more at risk?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, they would have felt more uneasy about what was going on at that stage.

MR BOOYENS: The reason, because dealing on what His Lordship has asked you, the attitude of the askaris were that they were working for the government and they were perceived to be traitors by the people that were now unbanned and who were probably going to be the next government?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now, then Mr - let's get back to the operation itself, at page 136, the second paragraph, you said, refer there to the fact that Col de Kock suggested a team to you?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Chate and Nortje, they were not, never members of the actual operational team, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Do you confirm as you referred to in here, that the meeting took place at the House of Coffees?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And can you remember, you mention that you were told to call certain members and tell them to come to the house of Coffees, can you remember whether they were all there?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can recall, they were. I am not absolutely sure on that point, if everybody was there at that stage.

MR BOOYENS: But these were the names that were mentioned there?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now, did you people then meet at the House of Coffees?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Did Mr de Kock then explain the why's and the fact that it was an order from above and so on, of the operation?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: We have heard the evidence that Mr de Kock was injured at that stage, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Were you to take charge of this operation?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Baker, you then deal with the arrangements with Mr Simon Radebe about how you were going to meet Mr Brian Ngqulunga, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Take it from there, what was the arrangement with Mr Simon Radebe?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can remember, when I spoke to Mr Radebe on the Friday that the elimination took place, I told him where to meet me, which was on the Skurweberg Road near Vlakplaas and that he should inform the deceased that they were going to visit a few women that evening, so that the deceased would accompany him.

MR BOOYENS: I see. Did you also, what was the further arrangement then, if he gets the deceased into his motor vehicle, he was to go to the Skurweberg Road and then what would happen?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, he was to meet us after dusk on that road and I informed him that I would meet him there and that after handing the deceased to me, he should leave the Pretoria area for a couple of days and go and see informers which he was handling in the Mafikeng area to provide himself with an alibi.

MR BOOYENS: I see. You people made use of a motor vehicle that was rented by Willie Nortje?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, we used the Volkswagen kombi which Mr Nortje had hired from Avis, which we got at the Holiday Inn at Pretoria.

MR BOOYENS: Did Nortje hire this under his own name or under an assumed name?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I am aware, it was under an assumed name.

MR BOOYENS: Were you people all provided through contacts of the Security Branch, inside the Department of Internal Affairs, with false passports, ID's, everything?

MR BAKER: A number of us were, Mr Chairman, not all of us.

MR BOOYENS: Yes. Okay, was the registration plates on this kombi changed?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: That is a detail that you haven't put in here, but I don't think it is really material. Did you and Messrs Bellingan, Botha and Mentz then get into the kombi?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Did you go to the Skurweberg Road?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And at the Skurweberg Road, just tell the Committee what happened there?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, Mr Radebe was parked on the road, I drove up behind them with my lights on full, when I stopped behind them, the other members of the team, jumped out of the kombi and went to the passenger door of Mr Radebe's vehicle. I went to Mr Radebe's door and quickly spoke to him and confirmed that he was going to leave the area.

MR BOOYENS: The other members, were they, was anything done in an effort to mask their identity or anything of that nature?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, the members were all wearing dark clothing, gloves and balaclavas, full-face balaclavas.

MR BOOYENS: I see. The reason for that being?

MR BAKER: So that their identities would not be known to Mr Radebe.

MR BOOYENS: You, yourself, he knew he was going to meet you, so you were not masked, is that correct?

MR BAKER: I had a balaclava on, but he knew it was Mr, Mr Chairman, because I went and spoke to him.

MR BOOYENS: Yes. When the members took the deceased out of the motor vehicle, was there a scuffle to get him out of there?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can recall, there was quite a scuffle and the members had a hard time bringing him under control.

MR BOOYENS: To your knowledge, were some blows struck, people fell down, etc, etc?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And was he then forced into the kombi?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And you people then left?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I was driving the kombi, I went back and got into the kombi. At that stage, Mr Ngqulunga was already in the kombi.

MR BOOYENS: Who was sitting in front, next to you?

MR BAKER: Mr Bellingan was with me in the front, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So Messrs Mentz and Botha would have been on the back seat then with the deceased?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Do you know whether at that stage or at any stage during the journey, there were further assaults perpetrated on the deceased in order to silence him?

MR BAKER: Yes Mr Chairman, he had started screaming at the back of the kombi and he was silenced by blows from a cosh.

MR BOOYENS: Do you know, I see you make the statement that Mr Botha hit him with ...

MR BAKER: That is my recollection, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: I see. You then drove to the Oskraal district, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And Mentz and Botha according to you, carried the deceased out of the kombi, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: What happened then?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, he was placed in a slight depression next to the road and Mr Bellingan then shot him with an AK47 in the head, on automatic fire, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: I see you make the statement that Mr Botha also fired shots?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, when Mr Bellingan had finished, Mr Botha then also fired a number of shots into the deceased.

MR BOOYENS: You then contacted Col de Kock by radio and informed him that the operation was successful?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And you proceeded to a place called Wonderpark?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Where is that?

MR BAKER: It is a shopping centre in Pretoria North, with a big parking area on both sides of it.

MR BOOYENS: And there you met with Mr de Kock, Nortje and Charlie Chate?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Chate was driving one of your Vlakplaas vehicles that had compartments in it and the arms that you people used, were put inside this vehicle, is that right?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, and as far as I can recall, as well as the clothing that we had used.

MR BOOYENS: I see. You then proceeded to the Holiday Inn in Pretoria as you describe here, and handed the keys of the Volkswagen back to Willie Nortje and thereafter you proceeded to the Braamfontein Hotel?

MR BAKER: That is my recollection Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: I see. My learned friend, appearing on behalf of the relatives, have asked some question about the fact that so many shots were fired on the deceased. What were your instructions, what was this killing supposed to look like?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, it was supposed to have looked as if the ANC had eliminated him and the method used was that commonly used by them in eliminations.

MR BOOYENS: In other words, that many shots would be fired?

MR BAKER: Yes, that the weapon would be used on full automatic.

MR BOOYENS: Now, Mr Baker, the Committee has heard it but I don't think all the legal representatives here present, have heard it, Vlakplaas was basically an operational unit, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Apart from what was going on at Vlakplaas itself, did you have any Intelligence gathering capacity yourselves?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman, this was done by specialised units within the Security Branch.

MR BOOYENS: I see. The instructions that you received to do an operation, would that be based on information obtained from other sources?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have any, when Col de Kock told you as to how, the how and the why as far as Mr Ngqulunga was concerned and the fact that he received instructions, did he tell you where the instructions came from?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I assumed that the instructions came from above, because he told me he had received instructions at Head Office.

MR BOOYENS: I see and when he told you that the man had to be eliminated, did you have any reason to doubt Mr de Kock?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have any reason or was it possible for you or for that matter, any of the members under your direct command, I am talking about more specifically Mr Bellingan and Mr Botha, to check, verify, the information on which you were acting?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before were you told?

MR BAKER: About the operation Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as my recollection, it was either a week, a week to ten days.

MR BOOYENS: And in so far as you said you believed the information that the man was in fact a double-agent, in the world and in the war that you people were involved in and in the risk that he posed in the circumstances, did you think that in the circumstances prevailing, his elimination was justified?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Not legal, not legal, but justified?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: I see. You then deal at page 138 and further with the roles you played, by yourself, etc, etc. Would you confirm that and ask that that be read as forming part hereof, up to page 145?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you. If the Court would just bear with me. Perhaps, my Attorney has just pointed something out to me, and that has been my mistake, the seats in the kombi, apart from the two front seats, were there seats in the kombi?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And how was the deceased kept in the kombi, was he sitting upright or what was the position?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can recall the deceased was on the floor and the persons, Botha and Mentz, were restraining him on the floor between the seats.

MR BOOYENS: How were they doing that, or don't you know?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I couldn't see that, it was dark in the vehicle, it was already dark outside, I couldn't see exactly what they were doing as I was busy driving at that stage.

MR BOOYENS: I see. Okay, thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman, thank you. Mr Baker, have you had an opportunity to read through the statement, the application of Mr Simon Radebe?

MR BAKER: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: He states on page 41 that he was approached by one Douw Willemse and Mr Willie Nortje and that they requested him to go and fetch Mr Ngqulunga?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman, I cannot comment on that, all I know is what I did on the afternoon, where I requested him to meet me at a specific point.

MR HATTINGH: He states further in paragraph 13

"... I was then given the order by Nortje and Willemse to pick up Ngqulunga at work and to take him to the gravel road just on the other side of Vlakplaas where Col Baker would be waiting for us."

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I am aware, the place where he should meet us, was given to him by me, not by Mr Nortje.

MR HATTINGH: And then he proceeds as follows, he says

"... when I arrived at Brian at Wachthuis, I simply told him that he was needed at Vlakplaas and that I had been requested to bring him there."

Did you tell him to tell Mr Ngqulunga that he was required to go to Vlakplaas?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: On page 42 he says

"... I realised that everything wasn't quite all right, especially when I had to request to be discharged from hospital on an urgent basis in order to go and fetch Brian Ngqulunga."

Was he in hospital at the time when you spoke to him?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, no, when I spoke to him, I spoke to him on the day outside Headquarters, in the street.

MR HATTINGH: Because back on page 41, paragraph 12 he says

"... I confirm that during the Harms Commission investigation, I was hospitalised and that I was in hospital in Laudium."

That is according to his version, that is where he was when he was approached by Willemse and Nortje?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot dispute that, I do know that he was hospitalised at some or other stage, I do not know, I think Mr Nortje would be able to elaborate on that. I am not sure of that statement, Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: Are you aware of the fact that he is being treated for PTSD?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: And that he is undergoing psychiatric treatment and has been undergoing treatment for that condition for quite some years?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: Are you also aware of the fact that he suffers from very high blood-sugar and that it affects his memory?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: You do confirm his version however, to the effect that he was unaware of the purpose for which he had to take Mr Ngqulunga to the meeting place?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: And that he only found out the next day that Mr Ngqulunga had been killed?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I am aware, he wasn't in the vicinity at that stage, I think he was away for the whole weekend.

MR HATTINGH: Well, at paragraph 7 ...

MR BAKER: But that he could have found out, yes.

MR HATTINGH: Paragraph 17, page 43 of his statement he says

"... after that I left the scene and returned to my house. The following morning I heard over the news that a black man had been shot dead in Bophuthatswana, in the Oskraal vicinity. After the body had later been found, I heard that it was the body of Brian Ngqulunga and then I realised that in all probability he had been shot dead after he was taken from my vehicle and placed in the vehicle of Dave Baker and possibly Wouter Mentz."

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I don't dispute that he heard the following day, but as I say, as far as my recollection is, he was in the Mafikeng area at that stage, he could have heard it on the news.

MR HATTINGH: Well, you testified that those were your instructions, so can you state for certain that he actually carried out those instructions, that he did in fact leave the area and went to the Mafikeng area?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot state that for certain, I have no supporting documents.

MR HATTINGH: As far as the killing of Mr Ngqulunga is concerned, I am not sure but you testified about this in your evidence-in-chief, that you heard Mr de Kock's evidence that he went and reported to Gen van Rensburg the outcome of the operation?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: And that you accompanied him?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: Do you confirm that that is correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: And his evidence was that he told the General what he knew of the carrying out of this operation, and you filled in the gaps where he didn't know?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, as far as I can recall, I informed him that the operation had been carried out cleanly and that the members were ...

MR HATTINGH: Did you tell him where it was carried out?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can remember, I told him it was in Bophuthatswana.

MR HATTINGH: And the method of killing employed by you people?

MR BAKER: That we had shot him.

MR HATTINGH: Shot with an AK? Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Baker, did you know that Mr Radebe some time before he had to take Brian Ngqulunga to the place where you instructed him to take him, that he had instructions to get closer to Brian Ngqulunga?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I am aware, they were friends, but it is possible that he could have been instructed to, I am not, I cannot dispute that Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Just a moment Mr Chairman, with the Commission's - Mr Baker's got a bit of difficulty in hearing, could we use the microphones please. Thank you Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Mr Baker, were you with Mr Nortje when the kombi and the Mercedes Benz was hired with the renting company?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I do not recollect being with him at the time, I think the team that was to be used for the actual elimination, was kept apart from the team that was planning the logistical support.

MR LAMEY: Okay, because it is Mr Nortje's recollection that you actually went with him when this kombi and the Mercedes Benz was hired, it is just one of the smaller aspects that I want to put to you. You have no independent recollection?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR LAMEY: Is it possible that it could have happened?

MR BAKER: It could have happened, it is possible, I don't recollect that.

MR LAMEY: Okay. Mr Willemse, as far as you are concerned, was not entirely involved in this operation?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, I am not aware of his involvement at all.

MR LAMEY: Because it is also my instructions from Mr Nortje, that he wasn't at all involved in any aspect of this operation as far as he is concerned. Mr Baker, you - you testified that it was approximately 10 days before the incident, that you received your instructions?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, my recollection is a week to ten days.

MR LAMEY: You mentioned also that this happened during a meeting at the House of Coffees, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I just want to be clearer here, Mr de Kock, first discussed it with me, I am not sure if the meeting was held on the day that he discussed it with me for the first time.

MR LAMEY: Okay, so you knew before that meeting at the House of Coffees?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAMEY: Are you sure that Mr Nortje was present there at that meeting, or are you not sure?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I said, my recollection was that they were there, but it is possible that he might not have been there.

MR LAMEY: Is it possible that you just assumed his presence because he was part of, in some way, of the planning?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAMEY: Yes, okay. May I just confirm something? Well, Mr Nortje says that he cannot also exactly recall whether he was present at that particular meeting at the House of Coffees, he is also not sure, but he did know prior to, he was informed by Mr de Kock at a certain stage, some time before the incident of the instructions that Mr de Kock had received from Head Office that Brian Ngqulunga had to be eliminated. Mr Baker, then as far as Mr Radebe is concerned, when he delivered Mr Ngqulunga to you at the place where you instructed him to do so, you told him that he must leave the area for an alibi, and he witnessed also that Ngqulunga was taken by people with balaclavas and so forth, and he recognised your voice, is that correct?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, Mr Radebe knew it was me, I spoke to him. I went and spoke to him while the members were removing Mr Ngqulunga from the vehicle.

MR LAMEY: But is it your evidence that Mr Radebe did not know beforehand what was going to take place?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, he was aware that he had to give Mr Ngqulunga to me, but not for the purpose Mr Chairman.

MR LAMEY: Okay. But he would have known afterwards what has happened and that Vlakplaas was involved?

MR BAKER: I assume so, Mr Chairman.

MR LAMEY: Right, Mr Baker, is it at that specific meeting at the House of Coffees where you were informed of the extent of Brian Ngqulunga's information that he has given and that he has turned to the ANC?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, my recollection is that that is where we were given the reasons, being told that he had become a double-agent and that he was giving information out of Head Office.

MR LAMEY: Was it at that meeting at the House of Coffees?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Lamey, Mr Baker, when Mr de Kock came to you for the first time about this operation, I understand you were already aware that Mr Ngqulunga was an ANC informer?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, when Mr de Kock came to me for the first time, I was not then aware that he was an informer, I hadn't been informed about that. He informed me that this was the information that they had.

ADV SANDI: I don't think I am looking at a wrong application, at page 136 of the Bundle, the fourth line from the top

"... in the present case this fear was based on confirmed information by various sources that the deceased had rejoined Umkhonto weSizwe, and was actively furthering the aims and objectives of the ANC by providing them with classified information concerning Security Branch informers, operations, operatives and covert structures. Some of the above information was given to me by Col de Kock and I also had some personal knowledge from other sources."

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, yes, this information here was given to me by Col de Kock. The other resources referred to, was the telephone tapping.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can you repeat that Mr Baker.

MR BAKER: As I said there, the information passed on to me, I received from Col de Kock and he also mentioned other independent sources, which being telephone tapping and that type of thing.

ADV SANDI: It says there

"... I also had some personal knowledge from other sources."

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, what I meant there is that I was aware that telephone tapping, when I was informed of the telephone taps, was a common practice in Head Office, the other sources would have been telephone tapping.

CHAIRPERSON: That wasn't personal knowledge?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, but my personal knowledge of telephone tapping, I knew there was telephone tapping taking place in Head Office. It is actually put very roughly there.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but did you know anything specifically about the deceased before Mr de Kock came to you?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Sorry Mr Lamey.

MR LAMEY: I just want to put it to you, it is possibly as a result of the fact that Mr Nortje was not at that meeting, because he cannot recall being at that meeting, but Mr Nortje has no recollection of the way that you have put it, the positive way that you put it and as strong as you put it, that he had already joined the ANC and that he was already giving information. What he understood was, from Mr de Kock, that Head Office had information that he wanted to tell his story to the ANC. Is it impossible that this was put in more detailed terms, in stronger terms at that meeting where Mr Nortje wasn't present, because Mr Nortje has no recollection of this exact detail of this motivation?

MR BAKER: That is possible, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can I just interpose for a moment Mr Lamey, at page 139 Mr Baker, you say - you give the impression there that you assumed that Mr de Kock had received an order from the Head Office?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: But today your evidence was that Mr de Kock said that he had been given orders from the Head Office, you didn't say that you were assuming?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, that is what he informed us, this in my further application here is that all instructions given to Mr de Kock, came from Head Office.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you, maybe you can follow that later.

MR LAMEY: Mr Baker, then when did, can you recall when did Gen Engelbrecht take over the command from Gen van Rensburg?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I am aware, it was either towards the end of December 1990 or the beginning of January 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: General who was this?

MR BAKER: Gen Engelbrecht, Mr Chairman.

MR LAMEY: Gen Engelbrecht. Can you comment or do you know being the second in command of Vlakplaas at the time, whether that prospect of Gen Engelbrecht, taking over the command from Gen van Rensburg was already discussed or on the cards, as one can put it?

MR BAKER: At what period Mr Chairman?

MR LAMEY: When this instruction came from de Kock, July 1990?

MR BAKER: Not as far as I am aware, Mr Chairman.

MR LAMEY: You are not aware of that, okay?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How much longer are you likely to be?

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the adjournment at this stage, until what time gentlemen?

MR BOOYENS: I think two o'clock Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Two o'clock, very well, two o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, my secretary is at the moment in the process of receiving a long fax from Cape Town, addressed to you, I think it is the transcript of the evidence you wanted. I have told her not to make copies of it, until it has been checked by the interested parties and even then, I don't know if we all need a copy. I think if there is just one original, it will be sufficient, do you agree?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have also arranged, there is somebody flying down from Cape Town this moment, with the original document as well.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, shall we continue?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER: Jan Wagener, Mr Chairman. Mr Baker, can you hear me?

MR BAKER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WAGENER: You gave evidence to the effect that this murder was committed on Friday night, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, that was my recollection.

MR WAGENER: I see in the affidavit in the Bundle of the wife of Mr Ngqulunga that apparently he went missing on Friday, the 20th of July 1990? Would that then be the date?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, my recollection, it is a Friday and I was, the date as far as I am aware is the 19th.

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, maybe just for the record, my electronic miracle also says that the 20th of July was the Friday, so maybe that is the correct date. I see we all refer to the 19th, it may have been the 20th, for what it is worth. Mr Baker, this killing of Mr Ngqulunga, did you partake in this incident for the benefit of the State of the time?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WAGENER: Flowing from questions asked earlier by Mr Sibanyoni to Mr de Kock, who did you inform about your involvement herein, afterwards?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, directly after the incident, I informed Mr de Kock per radio, who was my immediate superior at the time and subsequent to that, I was with him on an occasion when he informed then Brig van Rensburg, who was our Section's immediate head.

MR WAGENER: Are those the only persons?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, those are the only persons that I informed.

MR WAGENER: So am I correct that in terms of the need to know principle, you did not inform anyone else?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WAGENER: You did not inform your local member of Parliament for instance?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR WAGENER: Although this was, as you saw it, for the benefit of the State?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WAGENER: You did not go to the Commissioner of Police personally and inform him?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR WAGENER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER WALT: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Baker, before I start, maybe I should just explain to you that the family of the deceased believe that if the requirements for amnesty is met, it should be granted. They are however at this stage not satisfied that there is full disclosure to the Committee, and on that basis, this application of you and the co-applicants is opposed. You just testified that you partook in the killing of the deceased for the benefit of the State, why do you say so?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, the reasons given to us were that this man was a double-agent working for the enemy of the State, who was still trying to overthrow the State by means of violence.

MR VAN DER WALT: Was that the information you gained from Mr de Kock?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, yes, that he had rejoined or was giving information to the ANC of which he had been a member.

MR VAN DER WALT: Did he in fact in so many words tell you that the deceased was a double-agent?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, that he was a spy and that he had gone back to the other side.

MR VAN DER WALT: I understood Mr de Kock's evidence that he was told that the deceased to use his words, had put out feelers to the ANC?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot comment on what he was told, I was not present at that meeting, I am just saying what he informed us at our meeting.

MR VAN DER WALT: What do you understand by the words he put out feelers?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, that he had made contact.

MR VAN DER WALT: Not that he was a double-agent, actively giving information to the ANC?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot comment on what Mr de Kock was told, I can only comment on what we were told.

MR VAN DER WALT: Apart from the deceased, at that stage, there were I believe lots of other people actively furthering the aims and objectives of the ANC that you knew of, is that correct?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, it was a full-time job opposing members of the liberation movements who were infiltrating the country and also people who were lending them assistance, at that stage I suppose there were ongoing Intelligence operations conducted against these people, that however was not our task.

MR VAN DER WALT: But at that stage information was available of a lot of people furthering the aims of the ANC, is that correct, and MK?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I would assume so.

MR VAN DER WALT: Were all these people eliminated?

MR BAKER: Not by us, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN DER WALT: Did you make plans, were you instructed to eliminate all these people?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR VAN DER WALT: Do you know why not?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman, I was not in the command structure of the Security Branch.

MR VAN DER WALT: Why was it necessary to eliminate the deceased?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I acted on an instruction that I received, I was not in a position to query these instructions and to go higher and to find out what was going on.

MR VAN DER WALT: Did you try to confirm the information you gained from Mr de Kock?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, no, I did not. It was not up to us and within our capability to do so.

MR VAN DER WALT: Why not?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, we worked on a very strict command structure, I did not have access to Intelligence provided by other informers and Units. I relied on instructions given to me by my Commander and I acted there on.

MR VAN DER WALT: Did you know the deceased on a personal level, at the time you got instructions to eliminate him?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, yes, I did. I had knowledge of him and I knew him.

MR VAN DER WALT: And him being a colleague, didn't you think it necessary to sort of gain support for the information?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I have said, I had no reason to doubt the information passed on, or to query an instruction given to me by my seniors.

MR VAN DER WALT: Mr Baker in regard to how many incidents are you currently applying for amnesty, not this trial, in the whole scheme of things?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can recall, I think it is seven or nine.

MR VAN DER WALT: Mr de Kock testified that there were various other methods in which the deceased could have been taken out of the way, do you agree with that?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, it is possible, yes.

MR VAN DER WALT: Can you perhaps name one or two of these methods? Is it at all possible?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I presume, he could possibly have been transferred elsewhere or whatever, but it wouldn't have stopped him from acting as a double-agent.

MR VAN DER WALT: Was it at all necessary to kill him, in what way whatsoever, any way whatsoever?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I was concerned, I received an instruction to do so, I did not query the instruction, I carried out the instruction as given to me. I did not query instructions given to me by my seniors.

MR VAN DER WALT: Mr Baker, you must appreciate that there is a bit of a difference in acting on instructions and acting for a political objective, or motive. What did you do, did you act on instructions or with a political motive?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I acted on instructions and for a political motive as set out in my application.

MR VAN DER WALT: How can you say you acted with a political motive if you did not even try to ascertain the correctness of the information you got from Mr de Kock?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I believed that the instruction that I got from him, I believed what he said to me.

MR VAN DER WALT: You were not or were you, on the scene where the deceased was actually killed, did you witness the killing?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I was the driver of the kombi, at the time of the shooting I was sitting in the driver's seat surveying the road if there were any lights coming from other vehicles while it was taking place, I heard the shots, it was very dark, I couldn't see exactly what happened, but I knew what was happening there.

MR VAN DER WALT: Was the deceased at any stage informed what the reason was for his being kidnapped and taken away to the scene where he was eventually shot?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR VAN DER WALT: Was anything said during this whole incident, before he was shot, after he was kidnapped?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can recall, within a very short of him being placed in the vehicle, he was rendered unconscious by Mr Botha with the cosh and I don't recall much being said on the way to Oskraal.

MR VAN DER WALT: Where did you go after the deceased was eliminated?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, my recollection is that we drove to Wonderpark in Pretoria North, where the weapons and the clothing were handed over. Thereafter my recollection is that we proceeded to the Holiday Inn in Pretoria and the vehicle was parked there. I also recollect that on the way in, I scraped the side of the vehicle against the box which provides the tickets for the parking area and that controls the boom into the parking area.

MR VAN DER WALT: What was the reason for that, why did you scrape it?

MR BAKER: At that stage, I don't think I took the corner going into it, a bit sharply, I didn't realise the exact length of the vehicle, and drove slightly over the rounded corner, it is not a straight entrance, it is a curved entrance.

MR VAN DER WALT: When you came out of the premises of the Holiday Inn, did you go to any place in particular or did you go straight home?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, no. My recollection is that once in the Holiday Inn, we met, we had a few drinks basically I think to calm our nerves and then my recollection is that we were taken to a restaurant and from there, we proceeded to a hotel in Johannesburg, if I am correct it is the Braamfontein Hotel, and we slept there and the following day, we returned to our homes.

MR VAN DER WALT: So directly after you left the Holiday Inn, you went to a restaurant? One of the other applicants, Mr Botha, refers to it as the Red Ox Spur, that is page 66, paginated page, Mr Chairman. So you joined the group there?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, my recollection is the whole group went together, we didn't split up at that stage, we were all together.

MR VAN DER WALT: Did you have dinner there?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot recall if I ate or if I had a few more drinks there.

MR VAN DER WALT: The other people in the group, did they have dinner there?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I am not certain, I cannot recall exactly what happened after, who ate what and ...

MR VAN DER WALT: You see, because that is what Mr Botha says on paginated page 66 at the end of the first paragraph, he says

"... after this, all of us went to the Holiday Inn Hotel in Beatrix Street and ate at the Red Ox Spur in Sterland. After the meal, we went to the Braamfontein Hotel in Johannesburg, where we spent the night."

You see Mr Baker, it doesn't appear that this whole incident largely unsettled you, would you agree with me, if you had drinks afterwards, you went to have dinner at the Red Ox Spur?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, the purpose of the drinks as I have said, was to settle us. It was actually quite a common practice in the Security Force that after an operation, the members used to get together and drink, that was a form of pressure release. That was the common practice amongst the Security Force.

MR VAN DER WALT: Even if that operation entailed the vicious killing of a colleague, by shooting him up between 30 and 50 rounds with an AK47?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, each person has to live with what he did, himself and has to work through it, himself.

MR VAN DER WALT: Did you also have drinks before the incident?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman, that was one of Col de Kock's rules, our Unit did not drink before operations.

CHAIRPERSON: But we heard last week of continual drinking and drinking in the canteen at Vlakplaas before somebody was killed there.

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I have testified in that incident, that is why I did not agree with what was going on there, because we normally did not, before a planned operation, ...(indistinct) liquor.

CHAIRPERSON: Col de Kock was present at the time, wasn't he?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VAN DER WALT: Mr Baker, is it your evidence that it was Mr de Kock's standing instruction that there had to be no drinking before an operation?

MR BAKER: It was a normal procedure, it wasn't a standard instruction, he did not like people drinking before an operation.

MR VAN DER WALT: Not even if it is necessary to settle the nerves a bit for the operation that has to follow, the killing of a colleague?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR VAN DER WALT: Did you find it strange that the deceased had to be shot with an AK47 rifle 30 to 50 rounds of ammunition?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I testified earlier, the reason for that was to make it look like an ANC elimination, that was the methods that they used.

MR VAN DER WALT: Can you think of any other method in killing the deceased to make it look like an ANC assassination without shooting him 50 times with an AK47?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, this was considered the most, the best method to be used under the circumstances.

MR VAN DER WALT: Can you describe the atmosphere in the kombi immediately prior to the killing of the deceased?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, it was very tense, I do not remember anybody saying anything at that stage, tense and I presume an element of nervousness as well.

MR VAN DER WALT: Having regard to the fact that you had drinks afterwards and dinner at the Spur, was it not jovial?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR VAN DER WALT: Mr Baker, at that or in that particular time, were there any other MK members or ANC members that were eliminated in the same manner?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman, not by our Unit.

MR VAN DER WALT: Not that you know of?

MR BAKER: Not that I know of, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Had there been before or after that?

MR BAKER: There was an occasion before that Mr Chairman, but I think about a year before that.

MR VAN DER WALT: At that stage, according to your information and knowledge, was he the only sort of double-agent in the police, working for the ANC or did you know of any other people as well?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I didn't personally know of any other people, no.

MR VAN DER WALT: Have you heard subsequently of other people who were double-agents according to your standards?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, it was suspected that there were a number of double-agents, but I do not know of any particular people that I can identity.

MR VAN DER WALT: It was suspected as was the deceased, he was only suspected to have been a double-agent, is that correct?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I was working on information that was given to me, it wasn't said it was suspected, it was said he was.

MR VAN DER WALT: And the other people suspected of being double-agents, weren't eliminated in the way the deceased was?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot comment on that, I was not involved in other eliminations after that.

MR VAN DER WALT: If any other member of your Unit was suspected of being a double-agent and perhaps that person was a white man, would he similarly have been taken out and eliminated?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, if the instruction was given that the person should be eliminated, he would have been eliminated.

MR VAN DER WALT: Sorry Mr Baker, I could not hear your answer.

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, if such a person was identified and there is an instruction that he should be eliminated, he would have been eliminated.

MR VAN DER WALT: Do we understand your evidence correctly that no discussion with the deceased took place in the kombi before he was killed?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, that is so. The deceased was unconscious or rendered unconscious by Mr Botha shortly after being picked up.

MR VAN DER WALT: In your presence, did anybody at any stage question him and ask him "well, listen we have information that you are a double-agent"?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, at the time that he was taken, I was speaking to Mr Radebe. If any discussion took place between the car and the kombi, I am not aware of it, when I got into the kombi, Mr Ngqulunga was screaming and he was rendered unconscious by Mr Botha with a cosh.

MR VAN DER WALT: But Mr Baker, the allegation for which he was killed was that he was a double-agent, isn't it a bit strange that he was not informed of the reason for him being taken away and being killed?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I say, he was unconscious.

MR VAN DER WALT: Mr Baker, I put it to you that I will argue that it was totally unnecessary to have killed the deceased in the way he was killed, or at all and that it is doubtful that the motive you had, was a political motive. Do you want to comment on that?

MR BAKER: Sorry, I thought you were just making a statement, sorry Mr Chairman. I stand by my evidence and by my political motive.

MR VAN DER WALT: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER WALT

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Baker, you said the deceased was sending feelers to the ANC, but at that stage the ANC was unbanned and the ANC had previously, early in 1990, met the government and came up with some so-called Groote Schuur Minute, so why did you still regard it as an enemy at that stage?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, the ANC at that stage, the political wing was having discussions with the government, but the military wing was still carrying on with its armed operations.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it, was it suspected that he had contact with the military wing or with the ANC above ground?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I gave in my evidence, he had with Umkhonto weSizwe, that he had had contact with them, that is the military wing.

MR SIBANYONI: Wouldn't you say with the unbanning of the ANC it was no longer objectionable to communicate with the ANC if indeed he did that, I notice that you are also a member of the National Party, I will say maybe on the same light that you would easily communicate with your organisation, you were a supporter of the National Party?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot comment on instructions that came from above, all I know is that the instruction was that he had rejoined Umkhonto weSizwe and that he was a double-agent giving information which would be dangerous to the Security establishment, that is the reason that I got for this and the reason that I believed, I didn't have a reason not to believe it, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: I understood your evidence to say that you made arrangements with Mr Radebe that you will meet at dusk and that he will hand over Ngqulunga to you and that he then should go to Mafikeng and handle informers, so as to serve as an alibi?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, that is correct, I wanted him to leave the area to go to Mafikeng so that should there be any questions as to his whereabouts, there would be people that could prove that he was not in Pretoria at the time.

MR SIBANYONI: It would appear Radebe then knew that there was something unbecoming or something bad which was going to happen to Ngqulunga, if he must leave the area and create an alibi?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I did not inform Mr Radebe of what would happen to Mr Ngqulunga, if he made that assumption, that is his assumption, but I did not inform him.

CHAIRPERSON: Mustn't he have made that assumption when two men, dressed in balaclavas pull him out of the car while he is struggling and there you are, standing talking peacefully to him?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: There is only one assumption he can make, isn't there?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: At that stage you also repeated the arrangement that he should move immediately, away from the area, in other words it was on two occasions that you requested him to move, it was at the time when you were making arrangements with him and again on the day of the incident?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, the time that I made the arrangements with him, was that afternoon and then again at the spot.

MR SIBANYONI: You said with the unbanning of the ANC, the askaris felt uneasy because they will be regarded as traitors by the people who were unbanned. What was the attitude of Vlakplaas or the police, did the unbanning of the ANC not also create problems for the government, for the police, so as to say what are we going to do with askaris?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, the problem with the askaris, I think was raised on a number of occasions at various discussions between the political wing of the ANC and the government of the day as to what should be done with them, they regarded the askaris as a threat because at that stage a number of MK cadres were still infiltrating illegally into the country and these people were still identifying them and having them arrested. It was an ongoing problem and it was later decided that they should towards the end of 1990, that the whole operation should be aimed at fighting crime, organised crime, and be taken out of the political sphere.

MR SIBANYONI: What generally happened to askaris, we heard that some were taken to the Police College in Pretoria for some crash course or some training and they were appointed as police. What happened to the rest?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I am aware, all the people referred to as askaris went through some form of training at Hammanskraal Police College I think in 1991, the end of 1991, I am not sure exactly the dates and were also given a Detective course, to teach them the basics of investigations. I am not aware that there could have been others that were not part of this process, as far as I know, all those that were eventually paid of in 1993, were given that course.

MR SIBANYONI: We now know at least that Johannes Mabotha, Moses Ntehelang and Brian Ngqulunga were eliminated by Vlakplaas, how many more were eliminated by Vlakplaas which you know?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I am aware, I have applied for amnesty for one other case, but it was not a member of Vlakplaas, but it was also a turned person that had been handled by somebody else. That application still has to come up.

MR SIBANYONI: You have applied for amnesty?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Who is the victim in that application?

MR BAKER: I am not sure, Mr Ras referred to him the other day, in last week's hearing. We are not sure of the identity of the person, but I know his body was pointed out and exhumed.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chair. Mr Baker, let's talk about the meeting you had at the House of Coffees in Pretorius Street. How did you get there? Did you travel in the same vehicle?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman, that House of Coffees in Pretorius Street is just around the corner from Security Branch Headquarters, as far as I am aware the general procedure was that we would often go to Head Office for meetings and I think at one of these meetings, Mr de Kock asked me to inform the other members who were on the farm, that they should come to the House of Coffees so I walked there.

ADV SANDI: Did you all get there on the same time?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, no, not as far as I can remember, I think we were given a time that we should be there, but I think it could have been a few minutes, you know, different in the time.

ADV SANDI: Who was there when you came?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I am aware, I think Col de Kock and myself went there together. The other members arrived shortly thereafter.

ADV SANDI: I suppose this meeting would have taken some time, how long did this meeting take?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot recall, but I don't think you know, it was all that long, I cannot recall the details of what exactly happened at the meeting and who discussed what.

ADV SANDI: Did any drinking take place at this meeting?

MR BAKER: Only coffee, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: When I read your statement at page 136, I get the impression that Mr de Kock was the only person who was doing the talking at the meeting. He addressed you, he told you what he had to say and what had to be done. What was the reaction of the other members when they heard that this gentleman had made contact with the ANC?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I think at that stage, when we received the information that he was a double-agent, it was with a fair amount of shock.

ADV SANDI: Is it the position here that the deceased was killed without any question having been asked to ascertain who he had been in contact with in the ANC and to what extent he had been involved with the ANC, no such questions were asked?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman, not by us, no.

ADV SANDI: Could anyone, in your knowledge, could anyone have asked such questions from him to try and establish to what extent he had put the Security Police and Vlakplaas in danger by making contact with the ANC?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I am aware, the information around this incident, had been gathered by other organs and not us, so I am not sure the details of the contact and so on, it was not given to us.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: He had, I gather, been in a state of nerves for some time?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, that is what I understand from what was said.

CHAIRPERSON: And he shot his wife, I am not certain of the date, I think it was agreed it was January 1990, it was changed from earlier?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, I am aware of that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: You were aware of that?

MR BAKER: That he had shot his wife, yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did any of you go and seek to obtain information from his wife?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can recall, I went to see his wife and I think, I am speaking under correction, it could have been Brig van Rensburg himself, I know, I think we went to see her in hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: And did anybody ask her about her husband's behaviour?

MR BAKER: Well, when we spoke to her about it and asked her what had happened and why he had shot her, you know, she made it out to be an internal matter in the family and that it could have been an accident.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you still in Vlakplaas in January 1991?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, in January 1991 and towards February 1991, I took over Vlakplaas as the Commander of the Vlakplaas Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know of the killing of Goodwill Coleen Sikhakane?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I have heard about it with the amnesty application and so on.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, a group went from Vlakplaas to take part of it, on the 29th of January 1991?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I was not aware of the group and who was involved in the group, I was not part of that operation.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had taken charge of Vlakplaas then, hadn't you?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I say it was either January/February 1991 when the Unit was split, then Mr de Kock had a Unit in Pretoria and I had a Unit that stayed at the farm. My Unit was not involved in this operation Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Britz?

MR BAKER: Not part of my Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Swart?

MR BAKER: Also not Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Nortje?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Radebe?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because that was the killing of another askari, seven months later and that arose out of the killing of Ndaba and Shabalala, didn't it?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, I was not involved in that. I have heard with the amnesty application and so on, the details thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. Dealing with those names His Lordship mentioned to

you, you said that Vlakplaas split up, those names that His Lordship just mentioned to you, were they - Vlakplaas split up in two Units, the one going to a place called Daisy, is that correct?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, there is a Pretoria Unit, they had, I think initially they went to Daisy and then they went to another facility in Pretoria.

MR BOOYENS: And these people, did they stay behind at your Vlakplaas to put it like that, or did they go somewhere else?

MR BAKER: No, they weren't with me, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: They weren't with you?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now, was the first time that you heard about that operation, after it became public knowledge in the amnesty applications?

MR BAKER: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now in so far as the questions by Mr Sibanyoni is concerned, of the ANC being unbanned and so on, to your knowledge, was by July of 1990, that is approximately six months after the ANC had been unbanned, had the ANC abandoned the armed struggle or the armed wing at least, have the ANC abandoned the armed struggle yet?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman, I think they still carried on until 1993.

MR BOOYENS: Were you aware of any, did your askaris still identify people, former cadres or former comrades of theirs and were people still arrested coming into the country illegally?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: In other words, did peace settle on the country just when, after the ban on the ANC had lifted?

MR BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Have you heard of an exercise called Operation Vula?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Was that before or after the ANC was unbanned?

MR BAKER: It was after they were unbanned, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Just turn to page 138, at the bottom, Mr Sandi referred you to what is stated at page 139 where you state - "

... I automatically assumed and had no reason to doubt that instructions from him were authorised by the Executive Command."

If you go back to the last two lines on page 138, in what context did you make that statement that I have just read to you?

MR BAKER: All instructions given to us at the farm, by our Commanders, I considered to have come from higher authority, I did not consider it to be an ad hoc command from the Colonel himself.

MR BOOYENS: And were you talking about, I see you use the plural here, operations, both covert defensive and offensive, is that statement applicable in general to these operations?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: I see. Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further re-examination. Mr Chairman, perhaps, my Attorney has just, with the Commission's permission, I just want to clarify one thing about Simon Radebe. Radebe wasn't told beforehand that there was, before you met him at the Skurweberg Road, that there was an intention to kill this man, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: But as the Chairman pointed out, he must have realised that something was drastically wrong the moment the man was forcibly abducted?

MR BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I have just been given a transcript of some evidence, I don't know if gentlemen wants to deal with it now or if we should let it stand over till tomorrow.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if I may just, if I can just indicate by the document, Mr Chairman, that was a document being requested this morning, a lot of pages were actually obtained, but as far as I am concerned, I am under correction that those sections are actually relevant pieces of the evidence. It was handed to Mr Wagener, he requested me that these ones now, to obtain the full record of this specific evidence, which I will also obtain and as soon as possible hand over to him, but as far as my knowledge goes Mr Chairman, those are the relevant pieces of the evidence, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we told Mr Wagener we would get the evidence, you have arranged for it I gather, it is already on the way? We might as well let it stand over until it arrives.

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, Wagener on record, if I may add, I wish to add Mr Steenkamp for this document, and on the part that he has just given us Mr Chairman, specifically pages 338 and then 341 over to 342, is exactly what I put to Mr de Kock namely Mr Chairman, that he conceded that he misled Gen Engelbrecht, therefore that he conceded that he lied even in his amnesty application in that incident, in-chief, and that was all that I put to him.

WITNESS EXCUSED