Amnesty Hearings

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, may I with your leave call Mr Simon Radebe as the next applicant. Mr Radebe will give evidence in Sotho, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Give us your full names.

MAGOPO SIMON RADEBE: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Sworn in, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Radebe, you are an applicant in respect of this incident, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And your application appears on page 37 of the bundle, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You also, as part of your application, gave your general background, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: This document that I show you now.

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Do you confirm the correctness of the contents of this document?

MR RADEBE: May you please repeat your question.

MR HATTINGH: Now Mr Radebe, you were never an askari, you were a member of the South African Police.

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I think there's something wrong with my apparatus, I don't get the translated version back. Thank you.

I believe I was asked to repeat one of my previous questions. Was that the one dealing with the general background, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: He was never an askari.

MR HATTINGH: Never an askari.

Is it correct, Mr Radebe, that you were never an askari, you were a member of the South African Police?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And you were attached to the Unit 1, stationed at Vlakplaas?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Now Mr Radebe, I believe that we had this evidence before, you are not well, is that correct? You are a very sickly person.

MR RADEBE: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You've had bypass surgery.

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And you suffer from very blood sugar.

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And you also suffer from very high blood pressure.

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And in addition to that you have also been diagnosed as suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome.

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You have been - you are still receiving and you have been receiving treatment from two psychiatrists for this condition, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: I think you mentioned their names, I think it was a Doctor Potgieter and a Doctor Verster, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Is that Grove, Sir?

MR HATTINGH: Grove, Grove.

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Potgieter and Grove.

MR RADEBE: Potgieter, Verster, Grove.

MR HATTINGH: Oh three, okay. Now the high blood sugar that you're suffering from, does that affect your memory?

MR RADEBE: Yes, they affected my vision.

MR HATTINGH: And your memory, your ability to remember things?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Now Mr Radebe, you knew the late Mr Brian Ngqulunga, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: He was also a member of C1 at Vlakplaas at some stage.

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And then he got transferred to head office, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: Which head office, Sir?

MR HATTINGH: Pretoria head office.

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And after he got transferred to Pretoria head office, did you have much contact with him thereafter?

MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Now were you approached and given instructions with regard to Mr Ngqulunga during July of 1990 - sorry, yes, 1990?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Who approached you, Mr Radebe?

MR RADEBE: I was admitted in hospital, at Laudium Hospital.

MR HATTINGH: Yes.

MR RADEBE: Sgt Willie Nortje and Sgt Douw Willemse came to me and informed me that I should request for a discharge because they want me to do a job for them.

MR HATTINGH: Did they tell you what the job was that they wanted you to do?

MR RADEBE: Yes, they did, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: What was it?

MR RADEBE: That I should befriend the late Brian Ngqulunga.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, with what purpose in mind?

MR RADEBE: So that I should draw him nearer Vlakplaas. They did not tell me in detail about their intention.

MR HATTINGH: Alright. They wanted you to take him to Vlakplaas you say?

CHAIRPERSON: Draw him nearer.

MR HATTINGH: Or to a place near Vlakplaas.

MR RADEBE: Yes, not in Vlakplaas, near Vlakplaas.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you suffering from in hospital at that time?

MR RADEBE: It was sugar diabetes and high blood pressure.

MR HATTINGH: Now did you then take your discharge from hospital?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And did you go and fetch Mr Ngqulunga on the same day or was it the next day, or when was it?

MR RADEBE: If I remember well, I went there the following day. If I remember well.

MR HATTINGH: Do you recall seeing Mr Baker at head office when you went there to fetch Mr Ngqulunga?

CHAIRPERSON: He hasn't said he went to head office, he said he ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR HATTINGH: Oh sorry, sorry.

Did you then go to head office the next day, Mr Radebe?

MR RADEBE: I don't remember going there, but what I remember is that I met Brian.

MR HATTINGH: Don't you recall where you met him?

MR RADEBE: I remember I met him at the head office after I was discharged from hospital.

MR HATTINGH: Did you perhaps meet Mr Baker there at head office when you arrived there?

MR RADEBE: I don't remember meeting Mr Baker.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. Did you then take Mr Ngqulunga in your motorcar?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And you travelled to a place near Vlakplaas, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: ...(no English interpretation). They told me that they would meet me at dusk.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR HATTINGH: Who told you that, Mr Radebe?

MR RADEBE: I think it's Mr Baker.

MR HATTINGH: Did you and Mr Ngqulunga get into your car at head office in Pretoria?

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you told - sorry, I thought you said a moment ago that you did not remember meeting Baker, now you say you think it was Baker who told you who you'd meet.

MR RADEBE: Chairperson, what I said, I discussed with Baker telephonically, but I did not meet him in person. I informed him telephonically that I was with Brian.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR RADEBE: On the day when I found Brian.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but where did you telephone Baker from?

MR RADEBE: I was at Kwagasrand in Pretoria, at the shopping complex. Kwagasrand Shopping Centre.

MR HATTINGH: And did you, during the course of this telephone conversation, did you inform him that you had Mr Ngqulunga with you?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And what did he tell you, Mr Baker?

MR RADEBE: He told me that we will meet at the gravel road from east to west on the Church Street after Atteridgeville ...(indistinct), near Skurweberg. Then I parked my car just on the road towards Vlakplaas.

MR HATTINGH: Was that now after you'd arrived at the spot where Mr Baker told you to go to?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And when you arrived at that place, was Mr Baker there, was there another vehicle there?

MR RADEBE: I don't remember well as to whether I found them there or they found me there.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, very well. Did they find you there at some stage?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And what happened when they arrived there, or when you arrived there?

MR RADEBE: I went outside the car, I don't know as to whether I discussed with Wouter or with whom, but I informed that he is in the car. If I remember well, I went out of the car, then they took him out, then I left.

MR HATTINGH: The Wouter that you're referring to, is that Wouter Mentz?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did some other members also then approach your vehicle, other people, other persons?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, but I was not able to see them well because it was dark.

MR HATTINGH: And what did these people do?

MR RADEBE: They took Brian quickly, then if I remember well, Baker told me that I should go to Mafikeng, but I did not go to Mafikeng, I went home.

MR HATTINGH: So immediately after they took Mr Ngqulunga from your vehicle, you went home?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And did you remain there, you did not go to Mafikeng the next day?

MR RADEBE: I went home on that day at night.

MR HATTINGH: Did you hear anything on the news the next day, Mr Radebe?

MR RADEBE: That there was a person who has been killed. There was a person who was murdered with AK47, in the direction of Oskraal, in a certain farm. I think his name was mentioned. His bag was left in my car, then I hid that suitcase, but there was no firearm or ID or anything.

MR HATTINGH: Are you talking about a suitcase or a briefcase?

MR RADEBE: My apologies, Chairperson, I'm talking about a briefcase.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. Now did you know that the person who had been killed was Mr Ngqulunga?

MR RADEBE: His name was mentioned, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Now did you then realise what happened to him?

MR RADEBE: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: What did you think what happened to him?

MR RADEBE: That he was murdered.

MR HATTINGH: By whom?

MR RADEBE: Firstly, the way I was so frightened at the time when he was taken out of the car, the way the white members took him out of my car.

MR HATTINGH: Yes. But now who did you think was responsible for his death?

MR RADEBE: The people who came with Wouter Mentz, I thought those were responsible.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they take him out of your car violently?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did you approach either Mr Baker or Mr Mentz, to enquire from them what had happened?

MR RADEBE: At that time, Chairperson, I would be applying for my death if I asked that question.

MR HATTINGH: Did you consider it your duty as a policeman to report the matter?

MR RADEBE: During the Security Branch at that time they were saying comply and complain after, you would not do things like that because they would see that you know too much, then they would eliminate you.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Radebe, did you hear any rumours to the effect that Mr Ngqulunga was in the process of changing his allegiance back to the ANC?

MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know why he was killed, Mr Radebe?

MR RADEBE: I learnt that later, that he wanted to change allegiance.

MR HATTINGH: Now as a member at Vlakplaas, when you were given instructions by your superiors, did you have to carry those instructions out?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ever query any of these instructions?

MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: You said if you did something they would eliminate you.

MR RADEBE: Yes, Chairperson. For example, if I told that I am not able to give them Brian, they could have eliminated me also.

CHAIRPERSON: Who would have eliminated? Who would have eliminated you?

MR RADEBE: White members at Vlakplaas, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you feel that the white members of Vlakplaas thought that the black members were there to be used and if they didn't serve, that they would be eliminated?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: What did you say you did with his briefcase?

MR RADEBE: I opened it to check as to whether there were no firearms, but I only found documents there, then I burnt it. - after I learnt from the radio news that he has died.

ADV SANDI: What were these documents about?

MR RADEBE: It is was a newspaper and some documents, I don't remember the contents of the other papers, but it was mainly copies of newspapers.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on for further cross-examination - did you and Brian live anywhere near one another?

INTERPRETER: Did you and Brian live close to one another?

MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson, he was staying in Soshanguve, I was staying in Atteridgeville.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, Mr Booyens?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Radebe, those documents, you must have - that you found in Mr Ngqulunga's briefcase, try and help us, you remember you saw - you must have seen, as a Security Policemen you must have seen a lot of documents that had got that "Top Secret" or "Secret" stamped on top of it. Do you know what I'm talking about now?

MR RADEBE: I said it was a newspaper and some newspaper cuttings.

MR BOOYENS: Oh, are those the documents that you referred to. So there were no documents that had "Secret" stamped on top of them?

MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

INTERPRETER: The applicant is eating something, so he is not audible enough.

MR BOOYENS: Just speak up please. Mr Radebe, there are just a few small things. Mr Baker told this Committee that it is correct that he spoke to you on the day that the deceased was killed, but his recollection is that this discussion took place not inside Security Police Headquarters, but outside in the street, so it wasn't a telephone discussion, it was a person-to-person discussion outside. Could that also be possible?

MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You distinctly remember a phone call to Mr Baker?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And we know from where from, but where did you phone him?

MR RADEBE: He was either at the farm, or I found him on his pager.

MR BOOYENS: I see. And was this the first time when you spoke to Mr Baker, when you received instructions to take the deceased to the Skurweberg Road?

MR RADEBE: I don't think it was for the first time.

MR BOOYENS: I see. Did somebody else tell you that you had to take the deceased to the Skurweberg Road, except Mr Baker?

MR RADEBE: If I remember well, it's Mr Baker only.

MR BOOYENS: I see. So if it wasn't the first time, he must have spoken to you earlier on as well and told you to take the man to the Skurweberg Road.

MR RADEBE: Yes, at the farm.

MR BOOYENS: I see. Mr Radebe, then Mr Baker and the other persons involved said what happened, you stopped first and they stopped behind you with their lights on bright, could that recollection be correct, or are you not certain?

MR RADEBE: I've already said that I don't remember who arrived first, but after they have arrived or after we have arrived at that particular place they flicked the lights to me.

MR BOOYENS: Just another - it's a small thing, but I think I still have to put it to you. Mr Baker said that you were in the driver's seat and he actually came up and spoke to you there at the Skurweberg Road, while the other persons took the deceased out of the car. Could that have happened?

MR RADEBE: Please repeat your question, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Baker told the Committee that there at the Skurweberg Road, he came up to you where you were seated in the car and he spoke to you about going to Mafikeng again and the other persons that were with him, Baker, took the deceased out of the car. Could that be have happened that way?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I would say it is like that. I remember he informed me that I should go to Mafikeng and I did not go to Mafikeng.

MR BOOYENS: And can you remember whether the deceased said anything when the persons grabbed him?

MR RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson, because there was noise at the time when he was taken out of the car.

MR BOOYENS: And would it be correct to say there was quite a struggle by these persons who took the deceased out of the car, to get him overpowered?

MR RADEBE: When they tried to handle you just under your armpits, tried to pull you out, that is a struggle.

MR BOOYENS: No, and outside the car, was there not a struggle there as well, or don't you know?

MR RADEBE: I did not see because my car was facing eastward and their car was at the back. It was dark, so I did not see what happened outside the car.

MR BOOYENS: Can you remember whether the persons that took him out of the car, whether they had balaclavas on?

MR RADEBE: I did not see, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: I see. Can you remember whether MR Baker had a balaclava on?

MR RADEBE: I don't remember, maybe he was wearing it or not, I can't remember.

MR BOOYENS: No, that's fine. And you told us earlier on that Willie Nortje and Douw Willemse told you you had to befriend Brian Ngqulunga. How did you befriend him?

MR RADEBE: I don't remember as to whether we were talking about where we would enjoy drinks, we were talking about going to a place to drink, but I don't remember well as to whether we were.

MR BOOYENS: Wasn't it perhaps suggested to you that you were to suggest to Brian that you were going to a place where you could meet his girlfriend, or girlfriends? Could that be true?

MR RADEBE: That may be true.

MR BOOYENS: I see. And Mr Radebe, obviously when Brian was removed from the vehicle in the way he was removed, you realised something was wrong, not so?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

ADV SANDI: Did you not realise that something was going to happen, even before you took him there?

MR RADEBE: I was not informed, I could not think that way.

ADV SANDI: You had no suspicion whatsoever, is that what you are saying?

MR RADEBE: Even if I had that suspicion, I did not know where to base that suspicion on, or how to inform them because I stated that during those years there was no way where you would tell them that you are not able to do that, because they would tell you that you are black, you are the only person who can do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you were sick in hospital, they told you you had to discharge yourself from hospital to take this man to a dirt road 10 kilometres away from Vlakplaas. That was something very unusual wasn't it?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You must have known it would have been perfectly easy for them to have arranged transport from headquarters to Vlakplaas.

MR RADEBE: Some people were askaris and some police were at college. When I was in hospital they were at the police training college for a certain course.

CHAIRPERSON: But if Mr Baker, who was a senior officer, had wanted to talk to Brian, he could have made arrangements, couldn't he?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson. At that time you were supposed to obey any order you were given.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, I'm not querying that, but you must have thought a lot about what they were going to do.

MR RADEBE: Yes, I would think about that, but I would not do anything because I was trying to save my own skin. There's nothing I could do. There were many means for that arrangement to be done differently, there were Sergeants and other people who could have been instructed to do the same job, but I don't know why I was selected to do the job. It was for the first time something like that happened, because it was our duty as police to fetch the askaris from the head office or at the station.

You would not suspect anything because they would phone you at 10 o'clock at night at your place, that somebody is at the station, go and fetch him and bring him to the farm. So it was sort of a culture that we were transporting askaris, because I was the one who was handling the kombi and it was staying at my place unless it was broken.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Radebe, when you were discharged from the hospital, did you go immediately to headquarters to pick up Brian Ngqulunga?

MR RADEBE: No Chairperson, I phoned at my place for them to come and fetch me.

MR LAMEY: Who fetched you?

MR RADEBE: My wife, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: And where did you go then?

MR RADEBE: I went home. I don't remember who came to fetch me to Vlakplaas, so that I would be able to take my car there, I don't remember who that person is.

MR LAMEY: But did you say - did I understand you correctly, that you picked up Brian at headquarters the day after you were discharged from hospital?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, I said so. If I remember well, I said so.

MR LAMEY: So on the day of your discharge you went home and the following day you went to Vlakplaas and then from there, from Vlakplaas you went to headquarters to pick up Brian, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: I don't know what I did at Vlakplaas, I don't as to whether I received other instructions there, but I went there to fetch my car, then I went to fetch him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you speak to Baker then, was that when you spoke to him at Vlakplaas and he told you where to meet?

MR RADEBE: Yes, if I remember well I spoke with him when I went to fetch the car.

MR LAMEY: And it was Baker who told you where to - where he would meet you, on the gravel road, the Skurweberg Road near Vlakplaas?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I think we discussed earlier and then we concluded when we met there.

MR LAMEY: And on that same day that you picked up Brian, you took him to that road, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: I phoned first before I proceeded tot hat particular place.

MR LAMEY: But it happened on the same day? After you picked him up at Wagthuis, you took him to that road in the meantime - on route you also phoned Baker, is that what you're saying?

MR RADEBE: Yes, if I remember well that is correct.

MR LAMEY: And in your application, on page 41, paragraph 13, you said that you told Brian Ngqulunga when you met him at Wagthuis, that he is needed at Vlakplaas and that you must bring him there, or take him there to Vlakplaas.

CHAIRPERSON: What page is this?

MR LAMEY: Page 41, Chairperson.

Is that what you told Brian Ngqulunga, that's he's needed at Vlakplaas?

MR RADEBE: We discussed as to whether I should mention to him as to either Vlakplaas or about girlfriends. I don't know as to whether I told him about Vlakplaas or another story. If I told him about Vlakplaas he would ask me why we are not going straight to Vlakplaas.

MR LAMEY: Mr Radebe, you have testified that your memory - you've got problems with your memory as a result of blood sugar, and I also assume that the post-traumatic stress disorder that you're suffering from has got a serious impact on your memory and your ability to recall accurately the facts. You recall bits and pieces of it, isn't that correct, but you don't recall accurately all the facts, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: So I want to put it to you is that your facts are a bit mixed up and I understand it as a result of your memory, but the facts are - and those are my instructions from Mr Nortje, that some time before you picked Brian Ngqulunga on the day, your instructions from Mr de Kock was to get closer to Brian Ngqulunga and to befriend him and to buy drinks for him and in this way to befriend him and that this happened some days before the actual day that you took him. So what I put to you is that you've mentioned about these drinks, but your facts are a bit mixed up as to the time span that this happened and that you did in fact befriend him before the day that you took him to Baker, and it was indeed Baker - sorry, I don't want to make it too long a statement, let us just stop there for a minute. Is it possible that Mr Nortje is correct in this regard, that some time before you took Brian to this place where you were instructed to take him by Baker, that you befriended him to draw him closer to you.

MR RADEBE: Yes, we used to - we were friends even before. I think Col de Kock informed me that I should befriend him more closely.

MR LAMEY: That is what Mr Nortje will say because he was at this stage at head office.

CHAIRPERSON: How long were you in hospital for? - before you discharged yourself?

MR RADEBE: Five or six days, if I remember well.

CHAIRPERSON: What hospital?

MR RADEBE: Laudium Hospital.

MR LAMEY: You see I want to put it to you further, Mr Radebe, that where you state in paragraph 13, on page 41 that it was Nortje and Willemse that gave you instructions to take him to the road, the gravel road on the other side of Vlakplaas, that you're not correct there, it was indeed Mr Baker, as Mr Baker has testified that he gave you those instructions. So do you concede that you might be wrong?

MR RADEBE: If I'm not mistaken I said Nortje and Willemse came to the hospital to request that I should discharge myself there. If I stated otherwise, I apologise, but they did not tell me where we should meet. They came to the hospital to request that I should request a discharge from the hospital.

MR LAMEY: You see in that regard, Mr Nortje - my instructions from Mr Nortje is that - let me just stop here. Nobody here has - and it's also my instructions from Mr Willemse, has mentioned in any way the involvement of Mr Willemse. Could you be mistaken about him?

MR RADEBE: He was involved in hospital during our discussion. They brought biltong to me in hospital. He was with Nortje.

MR LAMEY: Well is it not perhaps that you are confusing perhaps a visit by Willemse and Nortje for some other purpose at hospital, unrelated to this specific incident and instruction?

MR RADEBE: I think I remember well it was Nortje and Willemse in hospital.

MR LAMEY: Okay, I want to put it to you that you're wrong in that respect and Mr Nortje did not visit you in hospital with Mr Willemse for this purpose, to give you instructions about Brian Ngqulunga and that you indeed, Mr Nortje will testify, some days before the actual kidnapping of Brian Ngqulunga, you received instructions from Mr de Kock to befriend Brian, which you did and you reported also to Mr de Kock and Mr Nortje was also aware of that and he also spoke to you during that period of time before the kidnapping about the developments of this befriending of Brian Ngqulunga.

CHAIRPERSON: I would find that a very complicated question to answer, it goes on and on. I think it would be fairer to the witness to put it in sections.

MR LAMEY: Let me take it up, I apologise, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Radebe, firstly, I want to put it to you that - and that is my instructions from Mr Nortje, that you're wrong where you state that it was him and Willemse that visited you in the hospital and there gave you instructions what to do with Brian Ngqulunga.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did they visit him together?

MR LAMEY: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that the first question?

What is being put to you as I understand it, is firstly, that Nortje and Willemse did not come to visit you in hospital, together.

MR RADEBE: They came together, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Put the next bit.

MR LAMEY: And Mr Nortje will say that he did not give you instructions about the - as you testified, that you must pick Brian Ngqulunga at head office and take him to that road.

MR RADEBE: Chairperson, I did not say Nortje gave me instructions, but I said Nortje requested me to request a discharge at the hospital.

MR LAMEY: Well Mr Nortje says he did not visit you in hospital and request that you take a discharge from hospital.

MR RADEBE: I don't that. I requested a discharge at hospital, knowing that I should come and take Ngqulunga. He's not telling the truth, he must try not to hide anything. I was at the veranda outside the hospital. And even if they entered at the hospital, there's no register of attendance of who came at what particular day or time.

CHAIRPERSON: Well who told you that you were going to go and fetch Brian?

MR RADEBE: I said it's Col Baker, Chairperson, at the farm.

MR LAMEY: You see, Mr Radebe, Mr Nortje's recollection was that - and that is what I want to put to you, that some days before the actual kidnapping of Brian Ngqulunga, when you took him to that road near Vlakplaas, you received instructions from Mr de Kock to befriend Brian to get him closer to you and to inter alia buy him drinks.

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is before I was hospitalised. That was before I was hospitalised.

MR LAMEY: Chairperson, may I just have a moment to get ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Was that answer interpreted?

MR LAMEY: His answer was

"That was before I was hospitalised."

CHAIRPERSON: I'm afraid I dropped it and it now ...

INTERPRETER: Do you hear me, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: There's a lot of background noise.

MR LAMEY: Just for the record, Chairperson, he said yes, he did receive instructions from Mr de Kock to befriend him, but that was before he was hospitalised.

Well let me just finally put it to you then that my instructions from Nortje is that he's got no recollection that you were indeed hospitalised - sorry.

INTERPRETER: Do you hear me, Chairperson?

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, may I just repeat that.

Mr Radebe, my instructions from Mr Nortje is that he's got no recollection that you were indeed hospitalised during that period before Brian Ngqulunga was taken to that road, and that he did not visit you in hospital and give you the instructions that you must take a discharge in order to carry out the instruction that you have spoken about.

MR RADEBE: He came. Even if we can go to the hospital - to head office to look for my medical file, that would show what I'm saying.

MR LAMEY: Okay. Can I just ask you this, did you - during that period prior to taking Ngqulunga on the day to that road, did you indeed buy drinks for him and befriend him?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, before I went to hospital, I tried to befriend him, but we were friends all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: We were what?

INTERPRETER: We were friends.

ADV SANDI: Ja, but why did you have to try and befriend a man who was already your friend, as you say?

MR RADEBE: They did not know that we were friends, they did not know that we were friends. The way de Kock instructed me, he did not know that we were friends and I did not respond and tell him that we were friends.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any reason for not telling him that look, that man you're asking me to befriend is already my friend?

MR RADEBE: He was instructing me how to befriend him, then I tried to do what he was instructing me to do.

ADV SANDI: Ja, but as friends, did you see each other regularly?

MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson, we were not meeting regularly, he was working with me before he was transferred to head office.

ADV SANDI: Because I thought you said in your evidence, after Mr Brian Ngqulunga was transferred to head office, you had no contact with him.

MR RADEBE: We used to see each other. When I got to town I used to pass at the head office, then we used to meet.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

MR WAGENER: Jan Wagener, Mr Chairman, I have no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER

CHAIRPERSON: Did you used to go and see him in the head office, or did you arrange to meet him outside and go and have drinks with him and things of that nature?

MR RADEBE: When I used to go to the head office I used to see him and greet him, because we used to work together before he was transferred to the head office. We did not have a grudge.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were just seeing him and greeting him?

MR RADEBE: If I see him - I would not go directly to see him in his office just to greet him, but if I meet him in the passages I used to greet him.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr de Kock told you to try to be friendly, take him out for drinks, did you do any of that? Did you try to take him out for drinks?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Where? When?

MR RADEBE: We went once in Soshanguve before I got ill.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that after de Kock had spoken to you?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Van der Walt, for the record.

Mr Radebe, for how many other incidents have you applied for amnesty?

MR RADEBE: I don't know.

MR VAN DER WALT: Are there other incidents for which you have applied?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER WALT: More than one?

MR RADEBE: Yes, there are more than one.

MR VAN DER WALT: Can you give us an estimate how many?

MR RADEBE: Between five and six ...(no English interpretation)

MR VAN DER WALT: During those incidents there were also people killed, am I correct?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER WALT: And am I correct to assume that in those incidents you were also pulled innocently, as you were here?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER WALT: Mr Radebe, at that stage, were you the only black Vlakplaas member?

MR RADEBE: Which time, Chairperson?

MR VAN DER WALT: At the time Brian Ngqulunga was killed.

MR RADEBE: Yes, others were at college, then I was in hospital.

MR VAN DER WALT: Weren't there any other black members at Vlakplaas at that stage, July 1990?

MR RADEBE: I don't remember because I was in hospital, they told me that my colleagues are at college.

MR VAN DER WALT: Be that as it may, you have already conceded that it is very strange that you were approached whilst you were in hospital, to befriend Brian Ngqulunga and to take him to the place where he was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he's told us I think fairly clearly, that he wasn't approached in hospital to befriend, this happened before he went to hospital.

MR VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

But whilst you were in hospital somebody else could have been approached to have taken him to Skurweberg.

MR RADEBE: Yes, if they delegated you, they delegated you. I don't know the reasons behind why they delegated me to do the job.

MR VAN DER WALT: Were you, during June/July 1990, actively employed on Vlakplaas?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER WALT: If there were rumours of fears about Mr Ngqulunga's evidence before the Harms Commission, you would have known about that.

MR RADEBE: May you please repeat your question.

MR VAN DER WALT: The question is, you were actively involved on Vlakplaas and if during the period June/July 1990, there were rumours about fears about the evidence of Mr Ngqulunga before the Harms Commission of Inquiry, you would have heard about that. It would have been discussed between the members of Vlakplaas.

MR RADEBE: Yes, not among the black members, it would be among white members only.

MR VAN DER WALT: Why would it not have been discussed between black members, you were also members?

MR RADEBE: It was a culture that we're not used to attend meetings with white members.

MR VAN DER WALT: Were you not informed of anything at all there? What did you, what did your duties entail on Vlakplaas?

MR RADEBE: What duties?

MR VAN DER WALT: Yes.

MR RADEBE: What duties?

MR VAN DER WALT: What did you do on Vlakplaas, what did your duties entail, as a member of the Vlakplaas unit?

MR RADEBE: I was a driver.

MR VAN DER WALT: Mr Radebe, I put it to you that you must have known the purpose for your befriending Brian Ngqulunga and taking him to the incident where he was shot. You knew that he had to be shot.

MR RADEBE: If I was informed I could have known.

MR VAN DER WALT: Well I put it to you, you were informed, that's why you decided to partake. ...(intervention)

MR HATTINGH: Excuse me, Mr Chairman, on what basis, on what evidence does my learned friend base that proposition that he's putting to the witness?

MR VAN DER WALT: On the basis that the witness' evidence is that he was approached whilst he was hospitalised to go and take Mr Ngqulunga to a certain spot, he had to book himself out.

MR HATTINGH: No, Mr Chairman, he corrected that evidence, that was not his evidence. He said he was approached in hospital, asked to take his discharge, he wasn't told on that occasion that he had to take Mr Ngqulunga to a particular spot.

MR VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairman, I will leave it at that, it's a matter for argument.

Mr Radebe, why did you decide to burn the deceased's briefcase after you heard that he was killed?

MR RADEBE: I don't know as to whether I phoned or what happened, I'm not able to remember who informed me that if there is no firearm or ID, burn it. I don't remember who informed me.

MR VAN DER WALT: Is it now your evidence that you were also informed to burn the briefcase?

MR RADEBE: If I was not informed as to whether I should burn it or hid(?) it, I could have taken it to the white members.

MR VAN DER WALT: Are you now saying - I'm repeating my question, are you saying you were informed?

MR RADEBE: If I remember well I was informed either to burn it or hid it.

MR VAN DER WALT: Mr Radebe, did you during 1990, know the deceased's wife, Mrs Chatherine Ngqulunga?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER WALT: On what basis did you know her?

MR RADEBE: She was my colleague's wife.

MR VAN DER WALT: Did you also know a certain Mr Geoffrey Bosigo?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER WALT: Who was he? Who and what was he?

MR RADEBE: Geoffrey Bosigo was my colleague.

MR VAN DER WALT: Colleague at Vlakplaas, or where was he a colleague?

MR RADEBE: Vlakplaas. We were working together at Vlakplaas, together with Geoffrey Bosigo.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you working with him?

MR VAN DER WALT: When I arrived at Vlakplaas in 1985, I found him there at Vlakplaas.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did he stay there?

MR RADEBE: Until in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: So in 1990 he was working with you at Vlakplaas?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he black?

MR RADEBE: Yes, he didn't a bright colour.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I thought you said a few moments ago that you were the only black member at Vlakplaas.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I think what he meant was, at the time he was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: At the time, July 1990.

MR HATTINGH: ... because the others were attending a course at some police college.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Bosigo attend a course at the college in 1990?

MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson. I was asked as to whether did I know Geoffrey Bosigo, I said yes, he was at college that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR VAN DER WALT: Do you know of any rumours after the death of Mr Ngqulunga, that Mr Bosigo might have been involved in his killing?

MR RADEBE: He was at college. Geoffrey Bosigo was at college.

MR VAN DER WALT: Mr Radebe, please listen to the question. The question is, do you know of any rumours that he might have been involved in the killing of Mr Ngqulunga?

MR RADEBE: I did not know.

MR VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairman, the family has indicated to me that they want to draw my attention to something, I wonder if it might be an opportune moment to adjourn for tea, I see it's five minutes to eleven.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly. It must be very difficult for them to prepare for this sort of thing, we'll take the adjournment.

MR VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MAGOPO SIMON RADEBE: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm indebted to the Committee for the extended adjournment.

Mr Radebe, just before we took the adjournment I asked you about a certain Mr Geoffrey Bosigo and I think you said he was a colleague, is that correct?

MR RADEBE: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER WALT: And was he also at the college at the relevant time, the time of the assassination of Mr Ngqulunga?

MR RADEBE: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER WALT: And I asked you if after the incident you became aware of rumours that he might be involved in the killing of the deceased, what was your answer to that?

MR RADEBE: Well I don't know about that.

MR VAN DER WALT: Did you at any stage after the death of the deceased and after his funeral, speak to his widow, Mrs Catherine Ngqulunga, about his death?

MR RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER WALT: Now Mr Radebe, I appreciate that you do have a bit of a problem with your memory at this stage, and I will refer you to the bundle of documents -Mr Chairman, it's pages 152 and 153, it is an affidavit by Mr Ngqulunga. I can't see when it was signed, I don't have the original.

Mr Radebe, I want to refer you specifically to paragraph 5, on page 153 thereof. Mr Chairman, I think in fairness, it would be better for me to read out the paragraph and have it translated. I'll read the paragraph to you, it's in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: Remember to allow for the translation between each sentence.

MR VAN DER WALT: Okay, Mr Chairman.

Paragraph 5 reads as follows:

"A few months after the deceased was buried, Busi Bosigo, the spouse of Geoffrey Bosigo, who was a colleague of the deceased, came to me. She told me that Geoffrey Bosigo, Simon Radebe and the white colleagues of the deceased had murdered him. Busi said that she and Geoffrey had had an argument. I reckoned that Busi was conveying this to me because she was angry with her husband and did not attach much significance to it.

However, I did go to Sam Magage my neighbour and colleague of the deceased, and told him what Busi had conveyed to me. Sam said that he didn't know about it. The following day, Sam and Simon Radebe came to me. I told Simon what Busi had told me. Simon denied that he had killed the deceased and said that he would never murder a colleague. I told him that the deceased could not speak, and left the matter there."

Mr Radebe, I just confirmed with Mrs Ngqulunga that the Simon Radebe to which she is referring in this paragraph is yourself. Can you at all remember this conversation she is mentioning here?

MR RADEBE: It's the first time that I learnt of this, today.

MR VAN DER WALT: Mr Radebe, I put it to you that you're not being open with the Committee, and it will be argued on behalf of the family that you aren't entitled to amnesty because you didn't give full information regarding the incident.

MR RADEBE: What I'm saying is what happened. You have now included Geoff here and that time Geoff was at the college, so I don't know what is the truth. Chairperson, I don't understand what is said here.

MR VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER WALT

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

MR SIBANYONI: Is Geoffrey's surname Basigo or Bosigo?

MR RADEBE: That's B-O, Bosigo.

MR SIBANYONI: You said at the scene where Mr Ngqulunga was taken from your car, you spoke to Wouter Mentz, did he wear a balaclava?

MR RADEBE: I saw him but I wasn't aware whether he put a balaclava. I don't remember whether he put it on or not.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you also speak to Mr Baker at that spot?

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is when he instructed me to go to Mafikeng and then I did not go to Mafikeng, but I went home.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you recognise them by their voices or by their sight?

MR RADEBE: I recognised Wouter by his voice, but I remember seeing Baker and I spoke to him. That is when he gave me instructions that I should go to Mafikeng so that it could not been seen that I was in Pretoria that time.

MR SIBANYONI: Now concerning duties of black members of the police in Vlakplaas, were you involved in interrogating those people who were captured, those ANC or PAC members who were captured?

MR RADEBE: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Were you also included in discussions or when meetings were held, planning etc?

MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: You said immediately you were requested to take Mr Ngqulunga to that spot, you wouldn't turn down the request. Are you saying the suspicion arose then and there, or you only suspected when he was removed with violence from your car?

MR RADEBE: Because it was normal amongst us as police when an askari identifies a person, I would be the person who arrests him, so that I could go and give evidence in Court. So we would fetch them from the police station, I was responsible for that. I would fetch them from the police station and take them to Vlakplaas. If he's to be transferred to head office in Pretoria, that was also task to do that.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words you are saying you wouldn't ignore any request or instruction given by your superiors?

MR RADEBE: That's correct, Chairperson. At that time they would say "Complain after". You would not complain before you execute the task that you are given.

MR SIBANYONI: And you are saying ignoring any request or instruction would amount to you being eliminated?

MR RADEBE: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

ADV SANDI: Why did you not comply with the instruction from Baker that you go to Mafikeng after you had handed Ngqulunga over to Baker and his group?

MR RADEBE: I was frightened that time and I would not travel a distance of about 200 kilometres at night and I had just been discharged from hospital and I was thinking about anything that could happen on my way to Mafikeng, so I wouldn't be able to get medical assistance.

ADV SANDI: Who told you that the deceased was suspected of having returned to the ANC?

MR RADEBE: They suspected that he has changed his allegiance. That is what I heard from their discussions at the farm.

ADV SANDI: Who is "they"?

MR RADEBE: Those people who were working with us. There were always discussions about the reasons why a particular person has been killed.

MR RADEBE: Are you referring to the applicants here?

MR RADEBE: Even those who have not applied for amnesty here.

ADV SANDI: Were there any people amongst the askaris who were of the same view as your white colleagues, that the deceased had returned to the ANC?

MR RADEBE: I don't know, Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Sorry, just one question, Mr Chairman.

In your interaction with the deceased, did you engage in any security related conversations?

MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson, I don't remember. I don't remember us discussing security matters.

ADV SANDI: Did the deceased ever say to you that he was afraid that his life was in danger? Did he ever express such a concern about his safety?

MR RADEBE: He never said that to me, Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, might I just enquire, the witness has confirmed the affidavit which forms part of his application in general, the background. Has it been handed up to you, is it before you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I understood he had. I understood that at the beginning of his evidence you asked him to confirm it.

MR HATTINGH: He has in fact confirmed it, I wasn't certain as to whether you were handed a copy of this document, Mr Chairman. Then I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: From what the applicant has told us and from the information that I was given before he was called, I understand that he is still in a poor state of health. Would you like him to be excused from attendance at this stage? I'm sure that you can make arrangements that he should be available if required.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, yes please, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Has anybody got any objection to that? Sorry, can you just wait one moment.

WITNESS EXCUSED