MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I call Mr Baker. You will find Mr Baker's evidence on page 281, no, 288, Mr Chairperson. The witness will testify in English this time, Mr Chairman.
MR SIBANYONI: Your full names please.
ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: (sworn states)
MR SIBANYONI: Sworn in.
EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, Mr Baker has a hearing problem, so that's why he's using it ... Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm indebted to you.
Mr Baker, your application, your main application appears from page 288 to 303, as far as the background is concerned, is that right?
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: And like you've done in the past, do you confirm your general background as far as this is concerned?
MR BAKER: I do, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: As far as this incident is concerned, we start at page 304, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: Now apparently a draft, pages 304 and 305 were was the uncorrected draft that was put in here, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: And the corrections that are indicated here, for example the 4 being scratched our and your reference to a few words being scratched out and things like that, that was actually done after you corrected this document, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: Now Mr Baker, you heard the evidence of Col de Kock as to the instructions that he gave you people about these activists or people that received military training, that you were to ambush in Swaziland, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: On the information Mr de Kock gave you, that you had before you took part in this operation, were you satisfied that these people were preparing for acts of terror inside the Republic of South Africa?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: And were you in your own mind satisfied that the operation was necessary and that it was part of the tasks of the Vlakplaas' Section C10 to fight terrorism and that this was part of that operation?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: You also crossed the border with a false travel document, with a false passport, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: And your task insofar as what happened in Swaziland, just for the sake of completeness, was you and Mr Botha were actually in, to your recollection was it Manzini or Mbabane, where these activists were supposed to meet the askaris?
MR BAKER: My recollection of it was Mbabane, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: But in any case it was a town in Swaziland?
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: And was your task to inform Mr de Kock by radio when the contact was established and the people were en route?
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: Without going into too much detail, is it correct that at one stage you thought the people were late and contacted Mr de Kock, as he indicated, and told him that the people were late and then subsequently contacted him and told him that they were on their way?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: You yourself were never present at scene of the shooting, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: And so your total involvement was to inform the people in the ambush that they were on their way and after that you also went back and crossed the South African border?
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: Are you also in a similar position as the other members of Vlakplaas, that you had no independent way of establishing the correctness of the information given to you, you were in the intelligence gathering arm, you were in the executive arm, is that correct?
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman, we were the operational arm.
MR BOOYENS: Ja. And do you confirm the balance of your application?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask a question now which I perhaps should have asked you people earlier, but I think it - this was the sort of operation that Vlakplaas was frequently called on to perform, wasn't it?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Other sections of the Police Force who had made the enquiries, carried out the investigation, will then call in Vlakplaas to take the action?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
MR HATTINGH: Hattingh, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Cornelius.
Mr Baker, you can recall that Mr Snor Vermeulen was not present in this operation.
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, on recollection no, he was not present.
MR CORNELIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
MR NEL: Mr Chairman, Nel, I have no questions for Mr Baker.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Rossouw, Mr Chairman, thank you.
Mr Baker, on page 306 of your affidavit you also mention that W/O Nortje was present, is it possible that you might be mistaken as to his presence at this operation?
MR BAKER: That is possible, Mr Chairman, I do not recall exactly who was there.
MR ROSSOUW: I just put it to you that I'm in possession of an affidavit by Mr Nortje, in which he denies any involvement in this operation. Would you concede that that would be correct?
MR BAKER: I concede that, Mr Chairman.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
CHAIRPERSON: Again can I interrupt at this stage. My recollection is that Mr Nortje was concerned in various other operations, it would very easy to get confused as to precisely which one you remember him at. Is that correct?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR BOTHA: Botha, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Visser, Mr Chairman, one aspect with your leave.
Mr Baker, at page 304 of the bundle you set out in your application saying that you were informed by your commander, Col de Kock, that he had received the instructions from the executive command structure and then you scratched out "Head Security Branch" and you left (General van der Merwe and Brigadier Schoon). Now I'm going to ask you to think back how clear your memory is because Gen van der Merwe states that, says that he wasn't involved in this at all, in this incident at all.
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, if I may reply to that. The executive command structure was made up of these persons. I didn't mean that they'd specifically in person given instructions as we were never personally involved when instructions were given. I was just setting out the command structure of Section C at that stage.
MR VISSER: Oh yes. That puts a completely different perspective on it. What you were given to understand is, head office approved it?
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: You were not given a name?
MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
MR SIBANYONI: Just one or two questions. I would like to it further from where the Chairperson left it, Mr Baker. Vlakplaas was called upon to intervene if the police, other police have done investigations and the like, would I be correct to say Vlakplaas' duty was only to do a covert operation, not to help in investigations?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR SIBANYONI: Would it be correct to say, or as it is usually said, that Vlakplaas was a hit-squad, it was a hit-squad in other words?
MR BAKER: It was an operational arm, that's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR SIBANYONI: You were not involved in the Chesterville incident?
MR BAKER: No, Mr Chairman.
MR SIBANYONI: In that incident we were told that there was a problem, police were killed, Vlakplaas was called upon, not usually to come and hit, but to assist to solve the problem of the police who were killed. What is your comment about that?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, we were often used to infiltrate where normal policemen couldn't, due to the fact that our members, as I think Col de Kock put it earlier, spoke the camp language, could speak the language of the activists that had been trained externally. The normal policemen didn't exactly know the, I should say the language used in the camps and by the activists themselves. So they were often used as well to infiltrate where the normal police could not infiltrate.
MR SIBANYONI: So there were instances where you would infiltrate, gather information and pass it to the normal police?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: That was usually done, wasn't it, by askaris?
MR BAKER: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't members of the South African Police Force at Vlakplaas, it was the askaris who were stationed there who did the infiltration and the gathering of information?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: And it was in fact fairly important that they should be kept away from the ordinary police, so their identities would not become known?
MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
ADV SANDI: I don't have a question, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone). Sorry, I have some perhaps unfair questions, considering it took place 10 years ago, but I wonder if you can help. Can you remember the time when you saw these people making contact outside the post office in Mbabane?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, if I can recall it was already evening, it wasn't still daytime, it was dark.
CHAIRPERSON: And you'd been waiting there for quite a long time by then, had you?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, yes, we actually wondered if the operation was going to come off.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you here when Mr de Kock gave evidence?
MR BAKER: Yes, Mr Chairman, this morning.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with his estimates of time and distance from Pretoria to Swaziland?
MR BAKER: Mr Chairman yes, I'd say that the estimate was more-or-less correct, the time it would have taken to have driven there and so on.
CHAIRPERSON: So if these people had left Pretoria early in the morning they would have been in Swaziland, in Mbabane for some time before you saw them making contact?
MR BAKER: That is possible, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: So they could have contacted other people?
MR BAKER: That is quite possible, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination?
MR BOOYENS: No thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS
MR BOOYENS: May he be excused on the normal conditions?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR BOOYENS: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Although we've been doing very well this morning, I don't think we'll finish your next applicant in three minutes. We'll take the adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Visser on record. I have two further witnesses, the one is a witness who is in prison and who has only arrived here this morning. I haven't consulted with him yet. I rather believe that we might not finish this afternoon with all the evidence ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: That doesn't matter, I merely want to ...
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
MR VISSER: ... I must call the witness, Mr Chairman, and I'll fall in.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MR VISSER: I don't believe we will, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, while I'm busy talking, may I beg leave to refer back to a question which Commissioner Sandi asked of Mr Schoon yesterday, regarding other matters in which he gave instructions. Now Mr Chairman, we've carefully gone through the amnesty applications and there are four. The first one is incident three, that was one which you have knowledge of, that was the attempted murder on Marius Schoon in Botswana. That's his incident number 3. I don't know whether you have his full amnesty application before you, Chairperson. Well perhaps - we've got one here which you can use in the meantime if you wished. But incident 3 in his application, relates to the attempted murder on Marius Schoon.
Then incident 12, Chairperson, as amended, is the present incident which you are hearing now. And then there's an incident 17, which related to two persons eliminated in Swaziland - I'm sorry, Botswana, Take Five and Sadie P-u-l-e. Now those are the only three incidents, Mr Chairman, in which Schoon gave instructions for people to be killed. Marius Schoon wasn't killed, but in the other two incidents, in 12 and 17, people were killed.
Then his number 14, case number 14, Mr Chairman, relates to an abduction of one, M-s-i-b-i from Swaziland. And those are the only four in which he himself gave an instruction without an instruction coming from higher up. Msibi wasn't killed or anything, Mr Chairman, he was just abducted and later returned.
CHAIRPERSON: I think my colleague merely wanted to ascertain, as did I, that there - one doesn't always have to look to the very top.
MR VISSER: No, indeed not Chairperson, in fact there are quite a number of incidents where lower ranking officers took the decision on their own. Could Brig Schoon perhaps now be excused, Chairperson, on the condition that he must keep himself available? Thank you, Mr Chairman.
BRIGADIER SCHOON EXCUSED
