MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I then call the next applicant, Mr Willemse.
MR SIBANYONI: Are you English or Afrikaans speaking?
MR WILLEMSE: Afrikaans.
MR SIBANYONI: Your full names please.
DOUW GERBRAND WILLEMSE: (sworn states)
MR SIBANYONI: Sworn in.
EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman. You will find the application of Mr Willemse on page 10 in the bundle and further.
Mr Willemse, do you have a copy of your amnesty application before you?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And a summary of the background and the broad political objective with regard to the events in which you were involved, can be found from 10 to 16. Do you confirm the content thereof?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, it is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: On page 16, if I may just refer you to the top of page 16. You state there that you were a Sergeant and a subordinate at Vlakplaas during 1989, with this operation, that was the rank that you occupied?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And you confirm that you fell under the operational command of Col E A de Kock and that operations, both internal and external, in which you participated, you participated in upon your own initiative but according to a legal order which you received.
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Willemse, you gave evidence before this Committee during the first session of this Committee, at the beginning of September, and upon that occasion you submitted a letter from a psychiatrist which confirms that you are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And you request that the Committee once again study your evidence against the background of that letter?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Then in broad terms you have summarised the incidents in which you have been involved, this appears on page 17 and goes up to page 30, do you confirm the content thereof?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes.
MR ROSSOUW: And with regard to this specific incident, you have summarised the facts from page 32 onwards. May I refer you to that?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Very well. You state on page 33, with the description of the nature and particulars regarding this incident, that in formation came to the disposal of Vlakplaas that at certain group of trained ANC terrorists would use a certain road in Swaziland to enter the RSA. Do you recall how you obtained this information?
MR WILLEMSE: I was informed at a later stage that it came from Messrs Coetzee and the others.
MR ROSSOUW: Yes, but at that stage you were not privy to the information-gathering process?
MR WILLEMSE: No.
MR ROSSOUW: You simply were informed about it subsequently?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And the order which was given to you, as Mr Visser has put it, was that you would have been informed by Col de Kock that these were indeed terrorists who were seeking to enter the country?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And was there any planning session which was held at Vlakplaas regarding the fate of these persons?
MR WILLEMSE: The plan was to lure these persons into an ambush and to eliminate them.
MR ROSSOUW: Very well. You describe in paragraph 2 that Geoff Bosigo would meet them under a false flag. Could you explain this to the Committee, what would this false flag be?
MR WILLEMSE: The other person or the persons that he was supposed to meet, would be under the impression that he, Bosigo, was an active member of the ANC and that they actually worked for the police, but this group was not aware of it. So that is what the false flag was.
MR ROSSOUW: You entered Swaziland with this group, did you also make use of a false passport?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And were you there at the point where the ambush was set up?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes.
MR ROSSOUW: You heard the evidence regarding what took place there, the evidence given by Mr de Kock, do you concur with that evidence, do you confirm it?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, I confirm it.
MR ROSSOUW: You were also issued with an AK47, which was fitted with a silencer, is that correct?
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Very well. Then at the bottom of page 33, you refer to the other persons who were involved there and you mention the name of Mr Snor Vermeulen. Are you certain about that or could you possibly be mistaken regarding his presence?
MR WILLEMSE: I may have been mistaken regarding his presence, Mr Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: Very well. Mr Willemse, initially in your statement you mentioned that four persons were shot dead during this incident and during consultation with myself you stated that you were not certain whether there were three or four persons. What is your recollection today?
MR WILLEMSE: That there were indeed three persons.
MR ROSSOUW: Is that in terms of the evidence that you have heard here?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: And after the shooting, at the scene, did you approach the vehicle, did you yourself look inside the vehicle to see the number of passengers?
MR WILLEMSE: No, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: After the incident you returned with the team to the Republic, can you recall whether this took place on the same day or on the following day?
MR WILLEMSE: I cannot recall that part of the events, but according to the evidence which has been given here, it would appear that we returned the following morning.
MR ROSSOUW: Then on page 34 and 35, with regard to the political objective of these persons, do you confirm the content of your amnesty application in that regard?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Now Mr Willemse, you drew no personal advantage or financial benefit from your participation in this operation?
MR WILLEMSE: No.
MR ROSSOUW: You did also not act out of any feelings of malice towards these persons who were eliminated.
MR WILLEMSE: No.
MR ROSSOUW: You did not know them?
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: At that stage, did you have any reason to doubt the information which was conveyed to you or to doubt any order or instruction which was given to you by Mr de Kock?
MR WILLEMSE: No.
MR ROSSOUW: You were in no position to question any orders.
MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
MR HATTINGH: Hattingh, Chairperson, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR BOOYENS: Booyens, no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
MR CORNELIUS: Cornelius, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
MR NEL: Nel, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL
MR BOTHA: Botha, Mr Chairman, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA
MR VISSER: Visser, Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions, Mr Chairman.
ADV SANDI: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Nor have I.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, may the applicant then be excused under the same conditions?
CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry, I have got one question I think. In your original application at page 22 - that is your application isn't it, you refer to those being, as I understand it, or is this another incident in Swaziland? It's the same incident, is it?
MR WILLEMSE: It's the same one.
CHAIRPERSON: Well there you say that the members concerned were yourself, de Kock, Lionel Snyman, Snor Vermeulen and Willie Nortje. The others you can't remember.
MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. I must just add that at that stage I was undergoing treatment, medical treatment and I made an error. After I'd heard the evidence given by the others I realised that I may have made a mistake or that I did make a mistake with regard to Willie Nortje and Snor Vermeulen.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR WILLEMSE: Thank you, Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED
