WILLEM JOHANNES MOMBERG: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA: Mr Momberg, your application is embodied on volume 2, the introduction from page 2 to 32, is that correct?
MR MOMBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR BOTHA: And the incident is contained from page 32, is that correct?
MR MOMBERG: That is correct.
MR BOTHA: Do you confirm that?
MR MOMBERG: Yes, I do, Chairperson.
MR BOTHA: You have also heard the evidence and the application of Mr Goosen, do you confirm that inasfar as it has regard to you?
MR MOMBERG: Yes, I do, Chairperson.
MR BOTHA: Just another aspect. It would seem as if after the deceased, Mr Goosen and Mr Prinsloo went through Rustenburg, you indicate the place where the detonation will take place.
MR MOMBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR BOTHA: Would you please explain to the Committee how it happened.
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, through the nature of my work and with reference to a previous application of mine to this Committee, the McKenzie application, I used this road every second weekend for three years, between two and three years, and from a reconnaissance view I knew this place quite well and I knew where there were places which were remote and uninhabited and places where people lived.
MR BOTHA: And this is the reason why you knew of this specific place.
MR MOMBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR BOTHA: Thank you, Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA
CHAIRPERSON: Does that end your evidence-in-chief?
MR BOTHA: That does end it.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Prinsloo?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mnr Momberg, Mr Prinsloo is well known to you?
MR MOMBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And you knew Mr Prinsloo as a person who was dedicated in his investigation work.
MR MOMBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And insofar as you know this place where this person was eventually blown up, was this also well know to you?
MR MOMBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: So you would indicate this place to Mr Prinsloo because you had that knowledge and not him.
MR MOMBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And there was no secret between yourself and Mr Prinsloo that you would blow up this person?
MR MOMBERG: No, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And the purpose Mr Momberg, was to - as Mr Prinsloo had already testified, this person was a well trained person and that it was in the interest of the country that he be blown up?
MR MOMBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And you did not do it for any other reason other than that?
MR MOMBERG: No, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: It was not for any personal gain or out of malice?
MR MOMBERG: None whatsoever, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And did you agree that this person was alive and he was immobilised in some manner and thereafter he was taken and executed and blown up?
MR MOMBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: According to your version, Mr Momberg, was he unconscious, alive, or can you not say? - when he was blown up.
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, I did not inspect any closer before we blew him up to determine whether he was alive, unconscious or dead.
MR PRINSLOO: And you did not look for any injuries?
MR MOMBERG: No, I did not look for any injuries, but I did note some injuries to his head when we placed the explosives.
MR PRINSLOO: Yes, is that injury where you stood under the bridge there?
MR MOMBERG: No, I speak of at the scene of the explosion scene, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Let us not misunderstand each other. There at the bridge did you see any injuries to him?
MR MOMBERG: None, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: You have already heard that there was a burn mark on his forehead.
MR MOMBERG: I've heard the evidence here, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Is it possible that he did indeed have a burn mark and you did not see it?
MR MOMBERG: It is possible, Chairperson. I can only repeat that I did not see any injury.
MR PRINSLOO: And you would also not be able to dispute that Mr Prinsloo had beforehand given him sleeping tablets as he has testified?
MR MOMBERG: No, I cannot, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And insofar as this specific incident is concerned, can you pertinently recall this detail that you met Mr Prinsloo at Compol and not on the road as he has testified, or can you be mistaken?
MR MOMBERG: I am entirely convinced that we met at Compol, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Why are you so convinced, Mr Momberg?
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, purely for the reason that from there we moved with one vehicle and we would not have taken on that road with two vehicles.
MR PRINSLOO: But according to the evidence, at some stage you must have driven in one vehicle.
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, from Compol we drove in one vehicle.
MR PRINSLOO: According to the evidence which was placed before this Committee, Brig Cronje gave certain instructions. Was it given to you or to Goosen, who was it originally given to?
MR MOMBERG: The instruction was given to me personally. According to what I heard later the instruction was given just before that to Goosen as well, so the instruction was given to us separately.
MR PRINSLOO: Where did Brig Cronje give you this instruction?
MR MOMBERG: In his office in the Compol building, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: How long was this before you saw Capt Prinsloo?
MR MOMBERG: Approximately two days.
MR PRINSLOO: What did Brig Cronje tell you?
MR MOMBERG: Brig Cronje instructed me to assist Sgt Goosen and Capt Prinsloo with the operation in the disposal of a corpse.
MR PRINSLOO: Did Brig Cronje tell you what was expected of you?
MR MOMBERG: Negative, Chairperson, he only said that I had to assist them.
MR PRINSLOO: And what did you understand from that, what did you have to do by assisting them?
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, I accepted that the further particulars will be provided by Capt Prinsloo.
MR PRINSLOO: Did Brig Cronje tell you why you had to participate in this operation?
MR MOMBERG: No, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: So at that stage you did not know that you were to blow up a corpse.
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, as I have already said, Brig Cronje's instruction was that I was to assist with the disposal of a corpse. I assumed that this entailed blowing up or whatever it might entail.
MR PRINSLOO: Why did you think it was blowing up?
MR MOMBERG: Because it was my field of experience, I was a trained explosives expert.
MR PRINSLOO: But there are many other manners in which one can dispose of a corpse.
MR MOMBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: So you just drew that inference?
MR MOMBERG: As I have already said, Chairperson, it is my field of experience and I accepted that that is what Brig Cronje had in mind.
MR PRINSLOO: There was a good relationship between yourself and Brig Cronje.
MR MOMBERG: That's correct.
MR PRINSLOO: And there was previously a family relation.
MR MOMBERG: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And did you at any time at a later stage report back to Brig Cronje and tell him that what you had to do along with Prinsloo was not to blow up a corpse but was to immobilise a person and blow him up?
MR MOMBERG: No, I did not give any feedback to him, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Why not, Mr Momberg?
MR MOMBERG: It was not my task, Chairperson, it was the senior member of the operation's task to give feedback.
MR PRINSLOO: But Mr Momberg, there was a personal relationship between yourself and Mr Cronje at that stage, was it not strange to you that you had an instruction to blow up a corpse and afterwards it went different?
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, in an operation nothing goes according to plan and one makes plans on grassroots level.
MR PRINSLOO: When for the first time was it necessary for you to call up these events as it had happened in your mind?
MR MOMBERG: During my application for amnesty, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And was that the first time?
MR MOMBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And this was with your fellow applicant, Mr Goosen?
MR MOMBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And in this aspect you spoke to your former Commander, Brig Cronje?
MR MOMBERG: No, Chairperson, with regard to this specific incident I personally much later had contact with Brig Cronje.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you have contact with him before you handed your application in?
MR MOMBERG: No, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: When in this regard did you have contact with him?
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, for the first time when we appeared here with regard to other incidents I saw Cronje for the first time in a very long time, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: You have heard the version of Mr Prinsloo where he differs from you.
MR MOMBERG: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And the only aspects where you differ from him is the fact where you had met and then what had happened along the road, administering the sleeping tablets and the manner in which he was hit or struck with the spade?
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, inherently I differ from Mr Goosen as to where we met. I stand by the fact that it was by the Compol building ...(intervention)
ADV MOTATA: Prinsloo.
MR MOMBERG: Oh I beg your pardon, Prinsloo. ... and that we had stopped on the road between Britz and Rustenburg where the coca cola was drunk and with regard to the spade episode, where the person was struck by Prinsloo with a spade.
MR PRINSLOO: What do you say of the spade incident? What is your evidence?
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, while Goosen and I were busy with the final preparations of the explosive device, Prinsloo removed the spade from the boot of the vehicle and struck Mandla two or three times with the sharp edge of the spade on the head.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you see him striking him with the sharp edge of the spade?
MR MOMBERG: I looked around when the first blow fell and I saw the consequent two blows.
MR PRINSLOO: You say that you were assisting Goosen with the final preparations of the explosive device. Would you want to tell me that both of you worked on the preparation of the explosive device?
MR MOMBERG: That is not what I'm saying.
MR PRINSLOO: So what are you saying?
MR MOMBERG: The explosive device was already prepared, it was six mini-limpet mines which were attached to each other with detonators. With regard to the final preparation it was on the correct sorting out of the limpet mine. In the process of packaging in the limpet mines into the bag the wires became entangled and it had to be untangled and thereafter Goosen had to attach the detonator and from there onwards he would work alone with the explosives.
MR PRINSLOO: So at which stage did Prinsloo strike the man with the spade?
MR MOMBERG: While we were busy with the explosives.
MR PRINSLOO: Were you and Goosen of assistance in the removal of the body from the boot?
MR MOMBERG: Right at the beginning I assisted in the removal of the body from the boot, thereafter I had no contact with the deceased except to help Goosen with the placing.
MR PRINSLOO: So you had to have someone there to place him on the explosives, who took the body there?
MR MOMBERG: Prinsloo dragged the body there.
MR PRINSLOO: So he would know where the place was where he wanted to blow it up?
MR MOMBERG: He could see where we were busy, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Were there bushes there?
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, not bushes as such, it is barren overgrazed land.
MR PRINSLOO: So are you saying there was no long grass?
MR MOMBERG: Yes, Chairperson, it was bare overgrazed land.
MR PRINSLOO: Bare, bare grass?
MR MOMBERG: Yes, bare overgrazed ground, Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: And was it safe to have such a bare, bare place?
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, that is why I chose the place, Chairperson. Initially I would not have considered causing an explosion in long grass because it could cause a veld fire, and at that stage it was not dangerous there because there was no residential are any closer.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Momberg, this driving to Rustenburg, was it your idea?
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, no, the course to Rustenburg was Capt Prinsloo's idea.
MR PRINSLOO: But how did he know that you would be in a place where you regularly moved?
MR MOMBERG: Capt Prinsloo was aware of the fact that with the handling of McKenzie I had regularly used that exact route to Kopfontein - it has got another name now, Klokweng border post, and that I knew that area quite well.
MR PRINSLOO: One moment please, Chairperson.
This McKenzie that you refer to, was this an informer that you dealt with?
MR MOMBERG: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: So how would Mr Prinsloo have known about an informer that you were dealing with, because this would have been done in secret?
MR MOMBERG: By nature of the activities of Capt Prinsloo's unit, all reports that I gathered from McKenzie would be sent through to him in a processed form.
MR PRINSLOO: And the fact that you were driving that route, would that appear in the report?
MR MOMBERG: Any normal person would have been able to infer it.
MR PRINSLOO: Does it appear in the report, Mr Momberg?
MR MOMBERG: Yes.
MR PRINSLOO: Does it appear there written "This is the route that I drive every day to McKenzie"?
MR MOMBERG: No, but mention is made of the border post.
MR PRINSLOO: But that does not indicate that this is the route that you were driving, Mr Momberg, with all respect. Is that correct?
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, there were a limited number of routes that one could follow to the border post.
MR PRINSLOO: Is it your evidence that you climbed into the vehicle at Compol, drove with Mr Prinsloo on a road which appeared to be the Rustenburg road, stopped under a bridge and then the coke story ensued and from that point onwards you drove again to Rustenburg without offering any input or finding out what was going on? Is that your evidence?
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, with regard to the direction of Rustenburg, you must remember that there was a great proportion of the former homeland Bophuthatswana, in the Rustenburg environment and that most of the clandestine operations that we launched were launched in Bophuthatswana territory and therefore it wasn't strange to me that we were going into that territory.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Momberg, did you climb into your vehicle at Compol without any prior discussion and simply drive with this man, Mr Prinsloo? Is that what you're saying?
MR MOMBERG: Yes, that is correct. I did not question him, I knew what we were going to do. My order was clear, the order was to destroy a corpse. I knew that Capt Prinsloo would have a general idea or a precise idea of what was going to happen. It was also not the custom to discuss these things.
MR PRINSLOO: Well with the exception of custom, did you not discuss any of these matters whatsoever?
MR MOMBERG: The only thing that we discussed before we stopped on the Britz/Rustenburg road, was that this person was already in the boot of the vehicle and we also discussed whether all our things were ready in order to continue with the operation.
MR PRINSLOO: Wasn't it said to you that this man was simply tranquillised, that he had taken sleeping tablets?
MR MOMBERG: No. The first time that we became aware of the fact that he was still alive was when we stopped on the Britz/Rustenburg road.
MR PRINSLOO: Then for what reason would Prinsloo open the boot on the road there if he was in the boot, for which reason?
MR MOMBERG: The only reason that I can think of is to give the coca cola to the man so that the drugs could take effect.
MR PRINSLOO: But he was already in the boot, he had already taken some of these sleeping tablets. For what reason did he open the boot then?
MR MOMBERG: I cannot speak on behalf of Capt Prinsloo.
MR PRINSLOO: But then you saw to your amazement that there was a living person in the boot.
MR MOMBERG: Yes.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you ask him what was going on?
MR MOMBERG: Chairperson, I accepted that my order was to destroy a corpse, I saw the man and I was surprised. I may use the phrase, I didn't make much of an issue about it because I knew that at one or other point during the evening the man would become a corpse in any case.
MR PRINSLOO: And you associated yourself with it?
MR MOMBERG: Yes, I associated myself with it.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you know at that stage what Brig Cronje had told you, that this would serve a legal purpose which would form part of your express or implied authority within the context of the events of that time?
MR MOMBERG: I can only reiterate that my order from Brig Cronje was to assist Capt Prinsloo in getting rid of a body. Subsequent to that, when we pulled away after the man had received the coke at the point where we stopped, Capt Prinsloo informed us about who and what the man was and what he had been involved in, and I associated myself with the fact that he was a dangerous terrorist and that he had to be eliminated.
MR PRINSLOO: This was after he received the coke?
MR MOMBERG: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, I am not going to put the evidence of Prinsloo once again because it is already on record. I have nothing further, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Prinsloo. Ms van der Walt?
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Alberts?
MR ALBERTS: I have no questions, thank you Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS
CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis?
MR DU PLESSIS: No questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Joubert?
MR JOUBERT: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Heerden?
MR VAN HEERDEN: No questions, Madam Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN
CHAIRPERSON: I take it, Mr Botha, you have no re-exam?
MR BOTHA: No re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA
MR JANSEN: I also have no ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen? Sorry about that.
MR JANSEN: I don't have any questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Momberg, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, who is the next applicant?
MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Chairperson, the next applicant is Mr Strydom. You will find his application on page - the pages are quite strangely numbered I must say, but it starts on page 422, the facts of this specific matter in his application.
CHAIRPERSON: Bundle 1?
MR DU PLESSIS: Bundle 1, yes.
