IZAK DANIEL BOSCH: (s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON: There are two matters I would like to mention before we start the further hearing this morning, or rather before we start hearing further evidence. The first is, I mentioned yesterday the affidavits we had which had been handed in in earlier proceedings by Brig Engelbrecht, we have had an opportunity of reading them and it appears to us, subject to anything any of you gentlemen may wish to say about it, that although there are certain conflicts, it is not something that we feel would be relevant to raise at this hearing, unless one of the parties wishes to do so. There's a difference between this affidavit which as I said, was handed in in the past and does not deal directly with the incidents before us at the present time, and that of van Rensburg, which specifically deals with these incidents. And accordingly, although it's open to any of the parties to refer to those affidavits and to raise anything, we do not consider it necessary to take them any further.
The second matter is, I don't know if we are going to be formally handed in these photographs.
MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, Adv Hattingh has just given me another copy of another photograph, just before we started, so we're going to make copies of that, so I think the best time to hand it in is for Simon Radebe's application. We will ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: We would indicate that from what we've seen so far, we would like to see very much more and not these photographs of extracts, but the packaging itself. Is there such available?
MS LOCKHAT: Not as yet, Chairperson, we're still working on that.
CHAIRPERSON: Well if you will, because what we have would appear to be, and I'm making no findings, merely labels that were stuck onto something.
MR HATTINGH: The latest that we've found appears to be of the packaging, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, good. Well done. Is that from you?
MR HATTINGH: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Right, shall we continue?
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Chairperson, before we commence the cross-examination on Mr Bosch, there was just one aspect that I omitted yesterday in evidence-in-chief, may I be permitted just to deal with that?
Mr Bosch, can you remember when you left Vlakplaas?
MR BOSCH: It was in August 1990.
MR LAMEY: And where did you go when you left Vlakplaas?
MR BOSCH: I went to the DCC.
MR LAMEY: Yes, it was a section of the Defence Force.
MR BOSCH: Yes, that's correct.
MR LAMEY: During the post-mortem inquest of Mr Mlangeni, were you at any stage involved in the cleaning of your former office at Vlakplaas?
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I take it that when you left your office you tidied it up as one normally does, but beyond that you did nothing to clean things up.
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.
MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Hattingh on record.
Mr Bosch, when I perused your evidence at the criminal trial, I found something there which reminded me that I forgot to lead Mr de Kock's evidence with regard to this evidence. He did inform me - if necessary, I will ask leave to recall him thereon, he informed me that some of the people who listened to the telephone conversations of Mrs Coetzee, which we tapped, made notes of information contained therein which possibly could have been of importance to head office, and that he handed it over to head office, this is Mr de Kock. Are you aware thereof? ...(transcriber's interpretation)
MR BOSCH: This is correct, yes.
MR HATTINGH: In your evidence in volume 2, page 219, in your evidence-in-chief, Mr Ackerman, the Advocate, asked you the following question
"What did you then do with these tapes?"
And you said -
"We listened to them. Any important information that was on these tapes we then wrote down on paper and we then handed this over to Col de Kock in the mornings and in the morning meetings ..."
It should probably read -
"... handed it in at the head office." Because it did happen that once Col de Kock was not there and that we ourselves handed it over to Brig Schoon."
MR BOSCH: That is correct, yes.
MR HATTINGH: So at a certain stage you did hand it over?
MR BOSCH: Yes, if de Kock was not there, it was me or Bellingan's duty to give it to the commander.
MR HATTINGH: Yes. Just to remind you, the Sanhedrin, I think there was a daily meeting involved by the commanders of the different branches of the Security Branch.
MR BOSCH: Yes, that was the head office commander.
MR HATTINGH: And from the head office commanders.
MR BOSCH: Yes, at different desks.
MR HATTINGH: And this information was handed to them.
MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: So at least, or most of the members of the Generals in Staff were there and they knew that Coetzee's phone, or wife's phone was tapped and that they listened to the conversations?
MR BOSCH: Yes, that is correct. I do not know who was there, I was not involved in these meetings because my rank was far to low to be able to go there, so I just handed over the information.
MR HATTINGH: You handed it over to Brig Schoon.
MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: But Mr de Kock also made it clear that this is why he needed this information, he needed to give it to head office.
MR BOSCH: Yes, that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Is it correct that samples were taken of your handwriting and fingerprints were also taken?
MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Was it only for the court case?
MR BOSCH: Yes, I presume so.
MR HATTINGH: I cannot remember who else's fingerprints were taken, but during the course of the de Kock case, fingerprints and especially handwriting samples were once again taken from certain members of Vlakplaas. Were there any taken of you again? ...(transcriber's interpretation)
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Chairperson. Booyens on record.
Mr Bosch, you upon an instruction from Mr de Kock, went to Technical where you had the discussion with Mr Japie Kok, is that correct? ...(transcriber's interpretation)
MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR BOOYENS: And his reaction immediately after you talked to him, he said that you have to go to the commander, Gen du Toit.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: As I understand from Mr de Kock's evidence and what Mr du Toit had told me, he at that stage when you and Japie arrived there, he already about this plan which - let us say, that the people were busy working, and this is sending a device or a bomb to Dirk Coetzee.
Let me put it this, I inferred that at that stage you did not know that he knew about it, but was he surprised when you told him or did he ask you where this idea comes from or were his actions so that he already knew?
MR BOSCH: He was not surprised. I presume or if I think with hindsight, I'm sure he knew about this.
MR BOOYENS: Is that the impression you got?
MR BOSCH: Yes, that's correct. I can also add that I worked with them a lot, he would not allow anybody to just come in and ask people to use us without his permission.
MR BOOYENS: So his whole action was of someone who knew about this?
MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR BOOYENS: Concerning the discussion between you and Japie, Mr de Kock said that you arrived there and the idea that you conveyed to him was, as he understood it, that a detonating device, for example a tape recorder, they must try and use this, but the initial idea was according to him, that a detonating device was placed in the machine section of the tape recorder and the earphones idea was not mentioned at that stage.
MR BOSCH: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: So from Vlakplaas you came with a an idea from Col de Kock, that you have to use something that can play music and send this to Dirk Coetzee.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: But the later details of the earphones, that came from the Technical Department.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Then I would just like you to help us in the following. At one stage we know that you bought two cassettes, or gave these two cassettes to Mr de Kock.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Did you go and buy them yourself?
MR BOSCH: Yes, I did. It was one Neil Diamond and one BZN cassette.
MR BOOYENS: Yes, they were pre-recorded tapes. Out of the evidence - and out of the exhibit be submitted later, it appears that there was also another tape that was an open or clean tape and on it was written "Evidence - Hit Squads".
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Do you know anything about this?
MR BOSCH: Well in the court case I heard about it and afterwards, but during the time that we closed the package, me and Kobus, we only put in the music. And I mentioned yesterday that I went to the canteen and I saw this BZN tape. I cannot say specifically that was one -that specific one could have been an identical one, but that's what I thought about.
MR BOOYENS: And in any event, the "Evidence - Hit Squad", do you know anything of that one?
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.
MR BOOYENS: So that thing was not in that packet when you and Kobus Kok closed it?
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.
MR BOOYENS: Very well. Did I also understand you correctly, that when you left with the packet from Kobus Kok, there was nothing written on it yet?
MR BOSCH: Yes, it was clean.
MR BOOYENS: It was clean.
MR BOSCH: Completely clean, there was nothing written on it.
MR BOOYENS: Just prevent confusion, initially Japie Kok would have helped you with this?
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: And than at a certain stage he left and Kobus Kok, his brother who also worked at the Technical Department and who worked with the detonating device, helped you.
MR BOSCH: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Could you just help us with a few other details. The first time when you went to go and buy the walkman, was it only you?
MR BOSCH: Yes, I was alone.
MR BOOYENS: Did you buy one or two?
MR BOSCH: I bought two.
MR BOOYENS: Because Mr Kok, this is now Japie Kok, remembered that you initially bought one together and possible another one was bought later on. Can it be that there's some confusion there, that at the first opportunity you only bought one and that Japie was with you?
MR BOSCH: I cannot remember that at all.
MR BOOYENS: It was a long time ago and it is not really important detail and I'm not going to argue with you about this. Riaan Bellingan remembers that he was at one stage present when walkmans were bought. Is it possible that he went with you?
MR BOSCH: It can be.
MR BOOYENS: Now if we get to the testing of this detonating device, there's just a few aspects that I would like to clear up with you. In the first place you said that Japie Kok was present, Kobus Kok said that he was present.
MR BOSCH: Yes, that is correct. I made a mistake yesterday, but if you go and look at my evidence in the court case ...(intervention)
MR BOOYENS: I see you spoke of the "witkop".
MR BOSCH: ... you'll see I said it's Kobus. I must have got confused at a stage.
MR BOOYENS: And that Mr Kok and Mr du Toit can recall that they and you were present at that stage, but Mr Bellingan says that he was also there, and yesterday I heard that Mr Willie Nortje was also present. The other people say that once again they cannot be dogmatic about this. What is your recollection about this?
MR BOSCH: I remember Col Wal du Toit.
MR BOOYENS: Kobus Kok?
MR BOSCH: Kobus and then also Willie, I remember Willie was there.
MR BOOYENS: And Riaan?
MR BOSCH: Bellingan I cannot recall at all.
MR BOOYENS: You cannot recall him. But you are not in a position to say that he was not there definitely.
MR BOSCH: That's correct.
MR BOOYENS: The other aspect. Yesterday you said that the earphones were detonated with detonating cable. Kobus Kok orchestrated the detonation.
MR BOSCH: That's correct.
MR BOOYENS: He said that he wanted to test the whole device and what happened was when the pig's head had the earphones on he left the pig's head on one side of a log and he detonated it pressing "Play" on the walkman and that detonated the bomb.
MR BOSCH: Yes, I did use detonating cables, I cannot remember exactly, but I will not deny it.
MR BOOYENS: May I just receive some instruction, Chairperson? Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
MR LAX: If I could just request your indulgence for a moment.
There was a portion - there was some evidence about the packing just before you went onto the tapes and you were going quite quickly and I missed that, would you mind just canvassing that for me again please.
MR BOOYENS: Certainly, Mr Chairman. Stop me if I'm dealing with the wrong person, please Mr Chairman.
The package - you were present, and it was wrapped and the walkman and the two tapes were put into the package and it was done by Kobus Kok.
MR BOSCH: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: But no names were written on the parcel at that stage.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Where was this?
MR BOSCH: At Rebecca Street in Pretoria West, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?
MR BOSCH: Rebecca Street, at Technical Department.
MR BOOYENS: Yesterday you said you cannot remember if you took the package immediately with you that day. Riaan Bellingan says that you left together with the package.
MR BOSCH: I cannot deny that.
MR BOOYENS: It was then left in your office.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: And then at a later stage you saw that somebody wrote something on it with a koki pen.
MR BOSCH: Yes, I saw it in the bag and I saw the following - I do not know if I can put this in, I saw that written in koki pen on the parcel.
MR BOOYENS: That is the address of Cheadle Thompson and Haysom.
CHAIRPERSON: Well we were going to hand this in later, I think we now have to.
MR BOOYENS: Yes.
MS LOCKHAT: Exhibit D.
CHAIRPERSON: This will be D.
MR BOOYENS: Yes, Mr Chairman, and it's ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Or let's say this will be D1, and when we get the other we can make it D2.
MR BOOYENS: Fine, Mr Chairman. The witness actually referred also - perhaps we should hand that in also if that Cheadle Thompson and Haysom one can then be D1, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Well no, the whole bundle is D1.
MR BOOYENS: Oh, D1, fine.
CHAIRPERSON: Or shouldn't we just - sorry, my colleague says, let's call it bundle D, it will page D1, D2, D3, D4, D5, and so we go on.
MR BOOYENS: Certainly, Mr Chairman.
And you don't bear any knowledge of who wrote on that package and you do not know who that tape, that's written "Evidence - Hit Squads" - if it appeared on the package, you do not know how it appeared on it.
MR BOSCH: Yes, I also do not know who tied the package with rope, I also didn't do that, it was only a parcel that was covered or wrapped.
MR BOOYENS: And which was closed with masking tape.
MR BOSCH: Yes.
MR BOOYENS: Can you remember at a certain stage you went back to your office and you heard from Mr Bellingan that he went to go and post the parcel. Can you help the Committee, how long was the parcel in your office before it disappeared or was posted by somebody?
MR BOSCH: I cannot remember, I do not know.
MR BOOYENS: But it was not a few hours?
MR BOSCH: No, no, it wasn't hours, it was a few days.
MR BOOYENS: A few days. Very well. Mr Chairman, through you, I don't know whether I've covered the part that Mr Lax was interested in. Thank you.
MR LAX: No, I'm indebted to you, thank you very much.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I try to clarify something.
You were there when the parcel was wrapped up.
MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What was it wrapped in?
MR BOSCH: Brown paper, ordinary brown paper.
CHAIRPERSON: Ordinary plain brown paper?
MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Because looking at this photograph D2, not only has someone written on it with koki pen, there is printed the words "Name and Address of Sender/Naam en Adres van Sender" and there are a lot of dotted lines on which to write, and then in large type underneath "PACK PARCEL SECURELY AND PREVENT DAMAGE" and then numbers.
MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now all that was not on the package that you helped wrap up at the office in Rebecca Street.
MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson, I presume this might be a sticker which was pasted on and then these things were written on it.
CHAIRPERSON: So it was a sticker, it wasn't part of the brown paper.
MR LAX: This pre-printed stuff is what you would normally put on an international insured parcel.
MR BOSCH: I presume that, yes, Chairperson.
MR LAX: I don't intend to give evidence, but I have sent parcels overseas and it's identical to that.
MR BOSCH: I presume so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Well now we've been given D6.
MR LAX: Mr Bosch, you saw when this thing was still in your office and was obviously inside this white plastic packet that you spoke about, you saw this writing already on it.
MR BOSCH: This in the black koki pen I saw, Chairperson.
MR LAX: This sort - something like that anyway.
MR BOSCH: Yes, something like that, yes.
MR LAX: I mean it's a bit much to expect you to say this was the exact writing.
MR BOSCH: No, I just looked down into the packet, into the bag, I saw the black koki and I didn't touch the packet because of fingerprints, I just left it.
MR LAX: Yes. And did you see what contained on D6? These appear to be pre-typed or computer generated printing or ...
MR BOSCH: Chairperson, I did not see this. I do not know on which side of the parcel it was pasted. It could be that this was on the top.
MR LAX: Because one would expect that unless somebody went to the post office to get these pre-printed forms and then stuck it on the thing ...(intervention)
MR BOSCH: That was my assumption, yes.
MR LAX: ... this is what would normally be filled in at the post office. When you went in to send the thing off they'd give you these things and say "Fill this out" etc.
MR BOSCH: That's correct, yes.
MR LAX: Do you know anything about the label or envelope or whatever it might be, on D1, which appears to be something quite different?
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson, I do not know what this is.
MR LAX: It seems to indicate that the parcel ended up at some central international depot before coming back to South Africa.
MR BOSCH: It is possible, but I do not know anything about it.
MR RAUTENBACH: May I interrupt at this stage of the proceedings. May I suggest that the parties be allowed to complete their cross-examination before the elaborate questioning from the Panel. I'm saying that with all respect, due to the fact that the parties having compiled information about this, may just be in a position to get to some of those issues a bit sooner than the elaborate process that happening with the Panel trying to make out what's basically depicted on the documents.
MR LAX: Very well.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAUTENBACH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Bosch, I represent the family. I would just immediately like to say to you, one of the most important issues for the family during the hearings is that the whole truth must come out, or to be as close as possible to the true facts. There are a few things that are not quite clear at this stage for us and I would immediately like to begin in showing you D6. If you look at it you will see that on D6 there appears an address -
"From:"
And then there's -
"Bheki"
And then beneath that -
"Cheadle Thompson and Haysom (which of course is not spelt correctly) Geldenhuys Building, Denhill."
It is very interesting, and I'd like to indicate this to you, Geldenhuys Building was the building where at that stage they were and that Denhill was the building where they were before. So the address is not correct, two addresses appear. Then you will see that it says -
"Jorrison Street, Braamfontein, Johannesburg"
And below we have -
"To: D J Coetzee, P O Box 34077, Lusaka. Zambia."
Now that was something - according to my recollection, the addresses that were found on the package. Would you agree with me that that was possibly a typewriter or a computer print-out that we can see?
MR BOSCH: Yes, it does seem like that.
MR RAUTENBACH: Now what I would like to know from you, Mr Bosch, is that when you discussed this matter with Mr de Kock, you certainly would have discussed certain aspects such as how this operation will be executed, who will wrap the parcel, who will write the addresses on it.
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson, it is not like that, my task was the facilitation between Vlakplaas and the Technical Department, in order to present the final product, and that is what I did. We worked on a need-to-know basis. The following person who had to deal with the sending of the parcel, he would have known about that. My task stopped the day when we wrapped it and completed it.
MR RAUTENBACH: Well just look at - it seems in any event, if one looks at D6, and I'm sure there are photographs that could explain it more, that this specific sticker was stuck on the parcel and you said you did not see it.
MR BOSCH: No, I didn't.
MR RAUTENBACH: Can you just tell me, Mr Bosch, does it make sense if I tell you that the reason why it was typed or a computer print-out was used of the address is that it was used in order not to use the handwriting of certain people? Does that make sense?
MR BOSCH: Yes, that is correct.
MR RAUTENBACH: And can I take it further by saying that is that was the modus operandi to use typewriting and to put this on top of the parcel, if that was the purpose - and you say it makes sense that it was not handwriting, it would have been ridiculous to then write somewhere else on the package.
MR BOSCH: Yes, it does seem logical.
MR RAUTENBACH: If we look at the document D2, that is the black koki pen writing to which you refer, that in this case it possibly could have been a document that was filled in in the post office.
MR BOSCH: Or before, Chairperson.
MR RAUTENBACH: Or before the time.
MR BOSCH: ...(indistinct) pasted on the package. It wouldn't have been at the post office if it was in the office with this black writing. I assume that they got the sticker from the post office, they took it somewhere, filled it in and stuck it on the parcel.
MR RAUTENBACH: But you will agree with me that it will not make sense that if you go to all the trouble of printing it out and then get a sticker from the post office and then write it in somebody's handwriting.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR RAUTENBACH: If you also look at D2, it does not seem, or if you look at the photocopy it does not seem as if it was something that was stuck on the parcel.
MR BOSCH: I cannot say, no.
CHAIRPERSON: Surely it does look as if it was something that was stuck on?
MR RAUTENBACH: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You can't say looking at the photocopy, it doesn't look as if ...(intervention)
MR RAUTENBACH: Maybe I should just qualify that.
That is was something that probably was put on the parcel at the stage when the parcel was sent from the post office. That is a possibility, do you concede?
MR BOSCH: It's a possibility, but I remember when I looked in the packet I saw black writing in koki pen. That I remember.
MR RAUTENBACH: Then I would just like to refer you to this document on D5. As far as I can understand - and I would like to place this on record, it appears in the inquest proceedings records, even the sections that were relevant here, that what is spoken of here is a type of yellow paper, a yellow etiquette which is mainly used internationally. It is a yellow etiquette, it's a sort of international organisation which has to do with postal items and it is usually filled in internationally. And you will see if we look at the record, there were very strong indications that this document could have been filled in in Lusaka, because at that stage it was something that was not used in South Africa a lot, but was something that was used more internationally. It is a yellow form that gets filled in at post offices world-wide. Among other, in French there's also an indication - well, the language on the thing is in French. I don't know if you saw that. ...(transcriber's interpretation)
MR BOSCH: I did see it, Chairperson.
MR RAUTENBACH: So you at no stage I presume, when you saw the package, saw a yellow label of this nature?
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson, I did not see it.
MR RAUTENBACH: Well you will remember that we are talking about ordinary brown paper. I do not know if you saw the inquest's proceedings records, but there was a strong emphasis placed by both the representatives of the South African Police, as well as the Attorney-General's office, that both those parties emphasised that everything that they could get back after the bomb detonated - that is now the paper that it was wrapped in, the specific walkman that was used, the electrical wiring in it, anything that was found, both the State and the Attorney-General took the stand that all of this material came from an Eastern European origin. Did you hear that?
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson. I know Filtron is in the East side of Pretoria, but it not in of Eastern ...(intervention)
MR RAUTENBACH: I would just like to place this in context. The yellow label that was found, the theory was also that it came from outside of South Africa.
MR BOSCH: I cannot say, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Well has anyone tried to check up on the number of the dispatching office? If you look at the label, under heading 10 on the label, it's
"Dispatching Office of Exchange: IATA Code: S101."
Has that number got any meaning, has it been checked on?
MR RAUTENBACH: As far as I know - let me just see, where do you see the dispatching number?
CHAIRPERSON: 10.
MR LAX: It's in the third box on the left of that photostat.
MR RAUTENBACH: I will have to look at the record, but there was definitely - I think there was - the way I recall it, there was an attempt to establish, but at the end of the day the dispatching number led to nothing, it wasn't possible to connect that with any specific place. You will also know that it was changed. There was a lot of investigation around that point, but as far as memory serves me, it didn't actually lead to anything significant, the fact that it was changed.
May I just ask you in this regard once again, this issue, and I just want you to understand what is meant by this, the issue is that there was an in-depth investigation which was conducted, in-depth, with regard to every piece of paper, the wrapping, the electrical wiring and its insulation, the thickness thereof and everything which was retrieved was examined and the conclusion, even the cardboard which was used for the package was examined and the ultimate conclusion was reached that this was a foreign item, it was not something which was manufactured in South Africa. Do you not know about this?
MR BOSCH: No.
MR RAUTENBACH: Very well. Then I would like to ask you about the following. Do you say, or do you know whether any discussions took place between the Technical Division, particularly Mr Japie or Kobus Kok and Mr Eugene de Kock, with regard to how the package was supposed to be prepared?
MR BOSCH: No, I don't believe that he would have been involved with that, he received the order, he gave it to me, I went to them, and as I've said, I was the facilitator. So he might have visited the place one day and wanted to find out how far it was, but he would not have been in-depth involved with the whole process.
MR RAUTENBACH: You see what I don't understand is, when you say, and you have basically conceded, that the idea of the bomb was apparently taken further by the Technical Division, by saying well, a walkman bomb with the explosives in the headphones.
MR BOSCH: Yes, that is correct.
MR RAUTENBACH: Now when we arrive at that point, what we don't understand is you say "Here's the idea, go ahead, and the Technical Division - if I've listened to your evidence, then would have decided "Well, we will print out the addresses on a computer, we will make out the addresses and place them on the package, we will also manufacture the extra tape upon which we will bring about the words 'Extra Evidence - Hit Squads'". That just doesn't make any sense to me.
MR BOSCH: Well it doesn't make any sense to me either, I would also like clarity about it. Because you see, the original plan was to compile the package, even though they decided what would be manufacture, and the two music cassettes would be incorporated. I was present when there cassettes were incorporated. That was the original plan. I don't know who came after the time, opened the package and replaced certain items. I don't know how that took place.
MR RAUTENBACH: Well if we examine the evidence of Mr de Kock, his evidence in that regard makes much more sense to me, that being that it was the decision for two cassettes to be incorporated, that a Neil Diamond cassette would be sent because it would most probably set Coetzee at ease because it would appear to be someone who knew him quite well and who was aware of his musical tastes, but the cassettes with the "Hit Squad", was probably the most significant or the most persuasive item which could be sent to him which would indicate something that was for his purposes. You have no evidence about this Hit Squad tape?
MR BOSCH: No.
MR RAUTENBACH: And you say that in your presence that package was sealed.
MR BOSCH: Yes, we wrapped the package with Kobus Kock, in Rebecca Street. He can give further evidence about this when he testifies.
MR RAUTENBACH: So what your evidence actually boils down to is that after the package was sealed, someone tampered with the package, it had to be opened ...(intervention)
MR BOSCH: That is my inference.
MR RAUTENBACH: ... and one tape must have been removed and replaced with another.
MR BOSCH: That is why I have stated in my affidavit that I saw the BZN cassette in the canteen. As I've stated I could not say that it was the tape that I purchased, but it was the same as the tape that I purchased.
MR RAUTENBACH: If I understand your evidence correctly, and you can tell me whether I am necessarily fair in making the following inference, according to your evidence - and I'm saying only according to your version, it boils down to the fact that the moment that the idea of the walkman, as qualified by the Technical Division of Demolition’s with regard to the explosives in the headphones, the moment when that decision was made, the rest was carried out by the Technical Division.
MR BOSCH: Yes, the work was completed by them, but it stopped at the addressing of the item. They would not have addressed and posted the item.
MR RAUTENBACH: But you said that you received it and you maintain that part ...(intervention)
MR LAMEY: No, no, just a moment please ...(intervention)
MR BOSCH: We took the packet from Technical Division, there was nothing on the package, it was finished. There was nothing on the package and I took it to the farm and nothing had been written on it. We took it to my office and I saw it there on my desk in my office and I saw this black section on it. So somebody must have already addressed it and I don't know who that person it, I cannot tell you.
MR LAX: You're mike, Mr Rautenbach, sorry.
MR RAUTENBACH: Thank you.
So what you are actually saying is that while it was in the office, someone must have tampered with the package?
MR BOSCH: Correct.
MR RAUTENBACH: And you have said that those who had access to your office were you and Mr de Kock, because both of you had sets of keys.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR RAUTENBACH: But someone must have conducted the business of bringing the address onto the object in your absence.
MR BOSCH: Yes, or he could have taken it out of my office and returned it to my office because I wasn't present in my office on the farm the whole day.
MR RAUTENBACH: Then there is just another aspect ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: He said "other people". He said in his evidence, as I recall it, that "other people" had access to his office and from time to time he found things missing there, which he had to replace.
MR BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR RAUTENBACH: As I understand your evidence, and perhaps I may have misunderstood it to some extent, because certain items disappeared, basically only you and Mr de Kock had sets of keys.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR RAUTENBACH: So these were actually measures that you took due to the fact that things disappeared.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR RAUTENBACH: It was in order to improve the security System.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR RAUTENBACH: Now with regard to the further aspect which I wanted to examine you about, at Vlakplaas, during that time, as far as you experienced it, what was Mr de Kock's attitude towards Mr Coetzee?
MR BOSCH: I think he was severely disappointed, I think all of us were disappointed because we worked very hard in building up the farm to the point that it had reached and now it was just a question of a week in which it was completely de-constructed.
MR RAUTENBACH: Could you just quality the use of the word "disappointed" and perhaps replace it with "extremely angry"?
MR BOSCH: Yes, angry perhaps.
MR RAUTENBACH: What was your attitude, tell me yourself, when you heard that a package was being manufactured for Coetzee? How did you associate yourself with the idea, did you think it was a good idea, did you want to see it brought to execution successfully?
MR BOSCH: Yes, I wanted it to be successfully executed.
MR RAUTENBACH: And then I also assume that at Vlakplaas, I would probably be correct in saying that the policemen of Vlakplaas in either event, would all have supported it.
MR BOSCH: Yes, that is correct.
MR RAUTENBACH: Did you have the impression that what Coetzee had done was in effect an assault on Vlakplaas itself?
MR BOSCH: Yes.
MR RAUTENBACH: And as you stated, Vlakplaas was injured as a result of this.
MR BOSCH: Yes, Vlakplaas and the Security Branch and the police and ultimately the government, because the government would have to defend the allegations.
MR RAUTENBACH: At that stage, am I correct in saying that with regard to Vlakplaas, the Harms Commission - Coetzee testified before the Harms Commission, and all these allegations that appeared in the papers, as well as the allegations about Vlakplaas were made at the Harms Commission?
MR BOSCH: Yes, that is correct.
MR RAUTENBACH: So if I were to ask you as follows, was there anything further that Coetzee could get up to with regard to Vlakplaas, with the exception of what he had already stated, that you know about?
MR BOSCH: No, not that I know of.
MR RAUTENBACH: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAUTENBACH
CHAIRPERSON: But we do know he had yet to testify about Neethling and his activities.
MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination? Oh, sorry.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: You are excused, Chairperson.
I just want to check with you, how long was Dirk Coetzee and his family under observation?
MR BOSCH: We must have worked on them for about a month.
MS LOCKHAT: You said that at stages you reported to Schoon, regarding your observations and so forth and the tape recordings.
MR BOSCH: That is correct. Not various times, I do recall one specific time - I think Bellingan also went to him one specific time and conveyed these matters to him.
MS LOCKHAT: So why did you report to him instead?
MR BOSCH: Because my commander, Mr de Kock, may have been out of town so he would not have been to attend such a meeting, therefore I had to go directly to the Brigadier.
MS LOCKHAT: Was he above van Rensburg, or was van Rensburg ...?
MR BOSCH: Van Rensburg replaced Schoon after he went on pension.
MS LOCKHAT: And who was your direct commander?
MR BOSCH: Col de Kock.
MS LOCKHAT: Tell me, how long did this whole operation last, to prepare and to plan this package?
MR BOSCH: Three weeks to a month.
MS LOCKHAT: So the surveillance, did the surveillance last about a month and then the whole operation took another month to arrange?
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson, the observation had been undertaken, the cassettes had been listened to and the package was in the process of manufacturing.
MS LOCKHAT: I just want to come to the issue of the orders. In the criminal trial you explicitly stated that the issue of surveillance and the tapping system, that that came directly from headquarters and de Kock had informed you of that.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MS LOCKHAT: Now I want to ask you another question relating to the orders the de Kock had given you in preparing the package. Did he explicitly tell you - because as far as I can read from the criminal trial, you didn't say that that specific order came from head office.
MR BOSCH: I think somewhere in one of my documents I stated that Mr de Kock told me that it came from head office.
MS LOCKHAT: I don't see any ...(intervention)
MR BOSCH: But I wouldn't have questioned him about it.
MS LOCKHAT: Just for the reference, page 217 of bundle 1 and 218 also of - bundle 2, sorry Chairperson, and then also on page 247 and 248, the applicant talks about the instructions and the orders and it specifically pertains only to that of the surveillance and the tapping and so forth. Just for the record, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Page 217?
MS LOCKHAT: Correct, Chairperson, just at the bottom of 217, the last paragraph, that's his evidence-in-chief. The last paragraph states
"Were any steps taken with regard to Dirk Coetzee himself?"
And his response -
"Yes, Your Honour, we were supposed to find out where he was. So we did. His telephones were tapped and observation of undertaken of his house, his family were followed."
"Who gave the orders?"
"Col de Kock, but it came from head office."
And then just as well - then Adv Hattingh then also refers to that specific instruction, which is on page 247 of bundle 2, and just the last few lines there he says -
"He said this to you?"
"I know it for a fact, yes."
"How do you know this, Mr Bosch?"
"Because he said it to me."
And that all pertains to the evidence, just in relation to the observation surveillance and the tapping, and nowhere in the evidence does it relate to specific orders that came from head office.
Just one other question I want to ask you, you also stated that the issue of the tapping system, those were orders that came from head office, that it was allowed and so you assumed that it came from head office.
MR BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS LOCKHAT: Could Mr de Kock go to Rebecca Street himself and just ask one of his colleagues there to organise this tapping system? Did he have to go directly to head office or was it possible for him to just speak to the people involved in those types of things?
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson, I have a very limited knowledge about this tapping. What would happen is that one would have to compose a motivation, this would go to the post office and then the Commissioner would have to undersign this motivation and what would then happen is, say for example with Rebecca Street, there are two telephone plugs - let's say there are two plugs that you can plug telephones into, these lines are relayed from the post office directly to that place and that is where we would obtain the information. So it wasn't that the Technical Division at Rebecca Street would undertake this, the post office would be involved in organising it. It was the police department and the telephone department who would collaborate in achieving this.
MS LOCKHAT: I just want to refer you to bundle 1. Chairperson, page 92, it the seventh line, page 92 of the bundle. You stated in your amnesty application form
"The address of Dirk Coetzee was provided by Security Head Office."
Can you just explain to me as to who provided the address at Security, or do you have any knowledge of that?
MR BOSCH: No, I don't, I simply understood that the address was obtained from head office. I cannot say that this person or that person obtained the address.
MS LOCKHAT: And then just three lines further down you stated, on the same page, 92
"His address was used as the sender's address on the package, in order to obliterate any suspicion Coetzee ..."
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MS LOCKHAT
"... regarding the package which was sent to him."
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MS LOCKHAT: Then just interesting enough, you further state
"The cassette which was placed in the cassette player was marked 'Hit Squad - Evidence'."
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MS LOCKHAT: I don't see in your application that you refer to these Neil Diamond cassettes, you just refer to these "Hit Squad - Evidence" tapes.
MR BOSCH: This was simply a summary of everything that I knew after the court case, all other matters or facts which came to my attention, and as I stated, this must be read with the evidence-in-chief and the evidence which was given in court.
MS LOCKHAT: But you knew in your amnesty application that you had to give the version that you yourself were involved in?
MR BOSCH: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Sorry, involved in what?
MS LOCKHAT: His role in the activities and exactly what he knew, referring to the Neil Diamond cassettes and so forth. He was just very vague here and he refers just to the one cassette, which is the "Hit Squad - Evidence".
MR LAMEY: No, but he said it, in his application he also refers to his evidence in the de Kock ...(intervention)
MS LOCKHAT: I understand that, I'm just asking the applicant.
Is it possible that there were two packages? Is it possible that two packages were made up and sent?
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson, not at all. I don't believe that that would have happened.
MS LOCKHAT: You also said to us that you yourself initially thought that you were the only contact person with Rebecca Street.
MR BOSCH: Yes, that's correct, because I'd worked with them during the past.
MS LOCKHAT: But then later on you discovered that actually de Kock had, he'd actually gone there previously to when you had gone.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MS LOCKHAT: Did you find that strange?
MR BOSCH: No, not at all.
MS LOCKHAT: Then just the last point. Did you report back at any stage, to Schoon or van Rensburg, regarding this particular incident?
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson, not at all, only to Col de Kock.
MS LOCKHAT: Seeing that you had contact with Schoon for instance, you told him "We're monitoring this person and this is what we found", didn't you ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say that, he said that on one occasion when de Kock was not available, he took the transcript or the note that had been prepared.
MS LOCKHAT: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Not that he told Schoon "We are monitoring this person".
MR BOSCH: No.
MS LOCKHAT: Was Schoon aware that you were monitoring the person?
MR BOSCH: That is correct, he requested information every day. He knew that Vlakplaas was working on this.
MS LOCKHAT: So just - the question is, was there any follow-up communication between yourselves and Schoon for instance, as to "Listen, we sent off this package", etc., etc?
MR BOSCH: No, not at all.
MS LOCKHAT: And just why not?
MR BOSCH: That wasn't my job, I was a Sergeant and Brig Schoon was a Brigadier. A Sergeant wouldn't walk up to a Brigadier and say "Listen, I've done this now and I've done that now", we had channels though which we had to work.
MS LOCKHAT: Did you know whether Mr de Kock reported back to van Rensburg or to Schoon or anybody in relation to this incident?
MR BOSCH: Yes, I believe he would have done so, he had to have done so.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
MR LAX: Sorry, can I just clarify one thing. I was struck by what you said, that this parcel was naked, you used another term to describe that, but in any event, did you actually see all the sides of the parcel before it was put in the white packet?
MR BOSCH: Yes, Chairperson, because we wrapped it. I was standing there wrapping the package and it had nothing on it and then it was placed in the bag. There was nothing on that package.
MR LAX: There weren't these typed or computer-generated labels, nothing at all?
MR BOSCH: Nothing, nothing, there was nothing on that thing.
MR LAX: Okay. And then what did you actually do with the parcel, you took it ...(intervention)
MR BOSCH: ... took it back to the farm for the next operator to start working with the parcel, because my duty was now done, it was no finished.
MR LAX: Yes, but the parcel was in your office.
MR BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: So who was the next operator that would work on it?
MR BOSCH: Bellingan.
MR LAX: Did you speak to Bellingan and say to him "Listen, the parcel's here", did you hand it over to him?
MR BOSCH: Yes, I suspect that I had given it to him.
MR LAX: So you must have given it to him.
MR BOSCH: Yes.
MR LAX: Did he work on it in your office?
MR BOSCH: I cannot say, Chairperson, I really do not know.
MR LAX: And then you say your next recollection is that the parcel is back on your table.
MR BOSCH: That is correct, with the paper on.
MR LAX: And it has koki writing on it.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR LAX: And then when you looked at some of these pictures on Annexure D, you said the koki writing was similar to that on D2.
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR LAX: Now what I'm interested in is, was the writing on the brown paper or was it on a label?
MR BOSCH: No, I cannot say that, I simply looked into the packet and I saw that there was handwriting, I couldn't see what it was written on.
MR LAX: But the label wasn't on yet at that stage and all there was, was some ...
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) the label was not on it?
MR LAX: Well it's quite possible that there may have been other koki writing just on the brown paper.
MR BOSCH: No, I cannot say. All that I know is that I saw black handwriting which was written with a koki pen, whether it was on a label or not, I cannot say.
MR LAX: Then you never saw any of the other faces so to speak, of this cube-like object? In other words, if you think that here is a parcel, it's rectangular in shape, but cubely rectangular, if you understand what I mean ...
MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: ... there's six faces to it. You didn't see the other faces?
MR BOSCH: I never took it out of the packet.
MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I take it one of the reasons why, was that you didn't want your fingerprints anywhere there.
MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Because as I understand your evidence, when you were wrapping up the parcel the two of you both wore rubber gloves.
MR BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI: Mr Bosch, the choice of the pig's head, was it not motivated by the anger you people had with regard to Mr Dirk Coetzee?
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson, the pig's head had absolutely nothing to do with that. They asked me to buy a sheep's head and I had to purchase this with money from the Secret Fund, so one had to be frugal, and when I saw what a sheep's head cost, I thought that it was too expensive, I wasn't going to buy this just to destroy it ultimately and that's why I opted for the pig's head, which was a third of the price.
MR SIBANYONI: The fact that Dirk Coetzee had already spoken to the Vryeweekblad and had given evidence before the Harms Commission, the damage had already been done, was it not only to get to him just to revenge for what he has done, when the bomb was sent?
MR BOSCH: Chairperson, I cannot say that it was solely for revenge, there was an order from my commander,
we were told what to do and I did it.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know of any other reason why he should be killed at that time?
MR BOSCH: No, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Mr Bosch, if we could re-examine the last question. I know that you yourself were not directly involved in all the motivations and you were simply carrying out orders, but the further ripple effect and further possible evidence which could emanate as a result of disclosures made by Coetzee, would you say that at that stage this was also a very clear and present danger, not only with regard to his evidence in court cases but also with regard to other persons who may or may not come forward, should he give further evidence?
MR BOSCH: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: So did you regard this as a damage-control action, so to speak?
MR BOSCH: Yes, that is possible.
MR LAMEY: Chairperson, there's just one other thing.
Your primary task was to liaise with Technical in order to prepare the package.
MR BOSCH: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Once the package was made up, is it correct to say that it was wrapped in brown paper?
MR BOSCH: Yes.
MR LAMEY: And in what was the walkman placed?
MR BOSCH: In a cardboard box.
MR LAMEY: And then you say that as far as you know, Mr Bellingan would have been involved in sending the package.
MR BOSCH: Yes.
MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson, those are my only questions in re-examination, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, we can move on to the next amnesty applicant, which is Simon Radebe, after this applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: I think we'll take the adjournment at this stage and we'll then continue.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MS LOCKHAT: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Right.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman. May I call Mr Radebe? He will testify in Sotho.
