Amnesty Hearings

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman just before my learned friend starts, I've been contacted by several of my clients about a news report that apparently, I didn't see it myself, that apparently appeared on the national TV news last night and what has been reported to me, it's certainly an incorrect reporting whereby it was in fact stated that in the application of a certain number of policemen, the presiding judge reprimanded them for not disclosing the full truth. Now I've certainly got no recollection of you reprimanding anybody for not telling the full truth in this hearing and so that is a report that I think reflects on the proceedings as a whole.

CHAIRPERSON: I may have said something yesterday about feeling that there hadn't been a full disclosure about who would have done the writing on the packets.

MR BOOYENS: Yes. No, that you certainly said.

JAKOBUS KOK: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAUTENBACH: (cont.)

Mr Kok, I would just like to put to you, the people who were at the scene concerning the package, this was now after it exploded, let us just discuss that point. In front of me I have got the statement of the investigative officers, at that stage W/O Brockway, he was, with Kritzinger, involved in the investigation and he was also at the scene. He mentions the following.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can you help me with this, you know about it, I don't, we don't. I gathered that the package was opened in his office. The packaging was left there and that the explosion took place elsewhere.

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes. May I just put that forward and then I'll ask the question. Mr Kok, apparently what happened is that the paper in which this package was wrapped, or the wrapping as we refer to it, he took it off in his office and that was left in his office. With him he took the cardboard box containing the device. After the explosion took place, the following exhibits were handed over to the investigative officer Brockway at the scene. He said it was one tape recorder with earphones and the extension cord. Secondly a cardboard box or container with polystyrene packaging as well as the manufactured container. The third, two tapes, one was marked Hit Squads and the other one Neil Diamond. The one tape was Neil Diamond and the other one was unmarked. A postal label addressed to D Coetzee, the address was in Lusaka, Zambia. It was yellow and then there's mentioned, or something about the Swiss was mentioned.

I do not want to go further with this, but I would just like to put this to you and the following and this is the statement of Kritzinger where he says the following in his statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before we go on, do I understand you as saying there were two tapes, one Neil Diamond and the other one's unmarked?

MR RAUTENBACH: That is according to the statement, that is what it says.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was not marked, nothing was written on it?

MR RAUTENBACH: No, "Evidence - Hit Squad", according to this one was on the cassette holder, that's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the box in which the cassette was?

MR RAUTENBACH: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I just put that in.

MR RAUTENBACH: Concerning what Kritzinger said, Kritzinger said, concerning the wrapping and carton container, because this was retrieved from the office at a later stage, he said that Mr Benade of the SAP, the expert on the paper analysis said that the texture, weight and the origin of the wrapping and carton box were to be ascertained, it was ascertained that the box was formed, that can be folded by itself in the shape of a box, it's not something that was stuck together with, for example, cellotape. It was something that can be shaped into a box or container. The reason why I'm putting this to you is because it seems and am I right, Mr Kok that concerning your evidence that when you delivered the package, it was solely the plastic covering, I think it was a see-through, that was the manufacturing covering of the device, where he talks about the manufacturers and I put to you the manufacturer's container, but concerning the carton container, concerning the polystyrene packaging, you do not know anything about that?

MR J KOK: No, I do not, I only put it back in the manufacturer's packaging or wrapping.

MR RAUTENBACH: What is also interesting is and that was ascertained concerning the carton container, is that it was compared with a carton that was manufactured in South Africa and once again it was something that was not manufactured in South Africa, or distributed in South Africa.

MR J KOK: I do not know anything about this.

MR RAUTENBACH: What your evidence is actually saying, Mr Kok, if we accept your version, that that material in which it was packaged, as well as the computer print-out, whether it was laser printing, it had to be done at Vlakplaas.

MR J KOK: I cannot say that, Mr Chairperson, but what I am saying is the container, as it left me, had nothing on it, it was only wrapped in paper and where the address came from, I do not know.

MR RAUTENBACH: But we can assume that it was done at Vlakplaas and that it came from Vlakplaas?

MR J KOK: I am personally of the opinion, there are many role players in this process who are not necessarily known to some of the operators and I cannot say that it was done at Vlakplaas, it is likely though.

MR RAUTENBACH: I do accept that, that you do not know anything beyond when you handed over this parcel, but to put it in a different way, what your evidence is actually saying to us, concerning the packaging and the laser print-out and the packaging, concerning that aspect it was not done by the technical department.

MR J KOK: That specific package, the one that you described, I do not know anything about that.

MR RAUTENBACH: But at the technical department there was nothing like that?

MR J KOK: No.

MR RAUTENBACH: Mr Kok, can I just ask you, I'm not talking about the sealing of it, but when you covered your device, what did you use?

MR J KOK: I'm talking about - I'm not talking about cellotape, no, you have to take water, moisten it, for example if you cover a book you take brown paper...

MR RAUTENBACH: In other words you covered it in that way, it was nothing special.

MR J KOK: No.

MR RAUTENBACH: Then it seems also that concerning the package there was string tied around it, you do not know anything about the string that was used?

MR J KOK: No, I do not know anything about the sealing or the string that was used, from the evidence that was led I heard that that is what the package looked like at the post office.

MR RAUTENBACH: Now, I would just like to ask you, when you wrapped the parcel, did you put a tape in the cassette player?

MR J KOK: No, not at all. It was empty in the way that I prepared it.

MR RAUTENBACH: And the two tapes?

MR J KOK: If I remember correctly, they were sealed in their original containers and that was also added into the packaging of the original device.

MR RAUTENBACH: It seems to me, if I listen to your evidence that what you are saying is that you built this device, here are the tapes that they bought. "I put the device in the packaging, I put the tapes in it, there's nothing special, I give it to them and it's up to them now, they have to now take it further, what tape they're going to use, how they're going to use it."

MR J KOK: It was all outside of my duties, yes it was outside of the functions that I had to, or of my duties.

MR RAUTENBACH: When you talked to Bosch, when he came to see you, I understand that it became urgent and he just told you to continue.

MR J KOK: At the stage when Bosch came to me, he asked me how far the package was. I realised that something had to be prepared, but I did not know any of the finer details. We went to du Toit and we discussed this with him and the fact that my brother was gone for a few weeks, I asked if I had to continue with the package and he said yes, then Bosch and myself discussed some of the details and we exchanged ideas about the package because we wanted to put the explosive in the tape recorder itself, but then we came up with the idea of the ear phones.

MR RAUTENBACH: Was it you and your brother?

MR J KOK: Yes.

MR RAUTENBACH: But apart from the fact that you and your brother came up with that idea, the discussion between you and Bosch, can you tell us what that contained?

MR J KOK: It was basically, as I said, it was an operation that came from de Kock. It had authorisation from the top. Dirk Coetzee was the target. The package must be prepared, there's already surveillance going on. I heard about this in the hallways, it was not official and that this package must be manufactured as soon as possible.

MR RAUTENBACH: And that it will be sent?

MR J KOK: Yes, we may have discussed that.

MR RAUTENBACH: Did you at any time discuss it with him, how this would be done?

MR J KOK: No, it did not work that way. I was informed about what was necessary, but if I had to manufacture a letter bomb, and if the target himself had to open it, then it would be very clear, then I would have put the address on this envelope, otherwise not.

MR RAUTENBACH: But it seems to me, Mr Kok, if we look at what really happened, there was a tape marked with the words: "Evidence - Hit Squad", that would be the actual bait for the target and at that stage of the planning, you were not involved?

MR J KOK: No, not at all, I assume that it was part of the planning, but I was not part of it myself.

MR RAUTENBACH: I would put it to you, something that one of the other witnesses mentioned, at one stage there was reference made to the list of people and I would just like to place this on record, that on the morning after the death of Mr Mlangeni, a list of 33 people was made available to the Investigative Unit of people that had to be investigated. This list contains the following names: Eugene de Kock, Wal du Toit, Simon Radebe, Serg Nortje, Steve Bosch, Lieut Chappie Klopper and apart from the fact that that list was handed over the morning to the police and said, "You have to investigate this", the first visit to Vlakplaas occurred only three months after this list was handed in.

MR J KOK: Mr Chairperson, I do not know anything about this.

MR RAUTENBACH: I said I will put it to you, but I should have put it to somebody else. Just for clarity sake, did you at any stage deal with Kritzinger.

MR J KOK: Well, I met him once at a service that I did in the Brooklyn area, but I never really met him.

MR RAUTENBACH: Just another aspect. If Kritzinger, for example, we understand that he came to the offices at the Technical Department.

MR J KOK: Yes, I saw him with the post-mortem inquest.

MR RAUTENBACH: Did he try and seize any of the materials?

MR J KOK: I did not accompany him at any stage, but I do know that he went through there, he went through our safe, through the explosives equipment that we had, we had specific equipment, but if Kritzinger went through and he did see certain items, you are talking about the wiring etc., if it was investigated, it would come out that most of these items were not available in South Africa. We did have imported items, but that specific wiring you wouldn't have found, it was an obsolete part of the equipment, something that was old, that was not used anymore, that we took apart, so he wouldn't have found it. It was something that was thrown away and I took some of the wiring out of it.

MR RAUTENBACH: I've no further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAUTENBACH

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, for the record could we mark this Exhibit E, the document that was handed in?

MR RAUTENBACH: May I just put on record, as far as that document is concerned, there are some notes on it. This is not the original document, it's a typed document of the first document that was written out. You will notice next to the name of 24, Mr Simon Radebe, there's a note to the effect - dead. That note was made by my instructing attorney sitting next to me Mr Raditapole, but I may just point out at the inquest, the formal inquest, it was actually common cause that Simon Radebe was dead and there's in fact a press report that we have in our possession, where the State Prosecutor, Mr Broderyk is quoted as saying that five people on the list are dead. Now one of those five it was common cause, is Mr Simon Radebe that was dead, so let me just put that, make that clear for the record.

Yes, and that was also according to, not only the State Advocate, but according to Mr Kritzinger, who was the person who made the information available that these people were dead, five were dead and one of them was Simon Radebe. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, can we have it?

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit E.

MR LAMEY: Chairperson, just as a matter of clarity I see that three people are mentioned to be dead on the list.

MR RAUTENBACH: The other two are no mentioned on the list itself, this list, but it was common cause that, I think there are on the list ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it's written on the list in handwriting, "All traced except five who have died".

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That seems to be very much the same handwriting as the one who wrote the word dead against three of them.

MR RAUTENBACH: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Who are the other two? If my learned friend could just assist.

MR RAUTENBACH: I can just make that clear. On the list there are four, the four are the ones marked Madiba, Mpofu and Radebe, where you see the words dead in the same handwriting and then of course number 21, Brian Ngqulunga deceased, and then let me just point out the fifth one was number 18, although it wasn't marked at that stage on the list, number 18 on the list.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Mr Kok, how long did this operation last?

MR J KOK: From when I started, approximately, it was a long time ago, I presume it was a week or a week and a half, concerning my part in this.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you request Bosch to bring the cassettes to you?

MR J KOK: No, Mr Chairperson, as I said, when I took over it was already available. This is as far as I can remember.

MS LOCKHAT: And do you know whether your brother requested it or Wal du Toit?

MR J KOK: I do not know at all, Mr Chairperson, I was not involved in it.

MR LOCKHAT: And the Hit Squad tape was not included there.

MR J KOK: As I said, no.

MS LOCKHAT: And you said you gave the whole package to Bellingan and Bosch?

MR J KOK: Yes, as far as I can remember it was Bellingan and Bosch.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR LAX: Thank you Chair. When you did the test of this thing, the actual cassette player wasn't damaged in any way whatsoever?

MR J KOK: That is correct, Chair.

MR LAX: So why was it necessary to have two cassette players?

MR J KOK: Mr Chairperson, it was practice that you do all your investigations and changes on a prototype until you get to the final product and you make something that is similar to the one that will be used. After manufacturing, you try and test the product. It was a testing board.

MR LAX: And then you knew who the target in this matter was.

MR J KOK: Yes, it was told.

MR LAX: Had you ever had contact with Coetzee before?

MR J KOK: No, I do not know him at all.

MR LAX: Did you know about him?

MR J KOK: Yes, everybody knew about him, he was front-page news.

MR LAX: Did you take any special care in this matter because of the fact that you were sending this to Coetzee rather than to some average human being?

MR J KOK: In my opinion, he was an average person. We executed our work in a professional way and it did not matter who the target was. We took it very seriously and I did not take any extra care.

MR LAX: Maybe you're missing the thrust of my question and the implication of my question. Coetzee was a man who could probably smell a bomb quite easily. He could see it and in fact he did see it, he did notice that this was a suspicious package, he suspected it was a bomb and he sent it away. If you knew anything about Coetzee, you would have taken special care in the way you manufactured this thing, to make it less suspicious and I'm wondering whether you did that.

MR J KOK: Mr Chairperson, I do not know Coetzee, but if I want to summarise...

CHAIRPERSON: It was a parcel in a cardboard box, he never saw the device.

MR J KOK: I summarise Coetzee as someone who is arrogant, he had the reputation that he was best in the officers' course and such a person is very vulnerable, because he thinks he knows about certain facts.

MR LAX: That's it, Chairperson, I've no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I want certain technical information from you, if you can help me with this. I'm trying to understand. To start with, what has been called the tape recorder, how big was it?

MR J KOK: Mr Chairperson, it was as big as the palm of my hand. It was a walkman size.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I don't know walkmans.

MR J KOK: A little bit bigger than the tape.

CHAIRPERSON: And could you see when the tape was in?

MR J KOK: Yes, certainly you can see if there's a tape in it.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you see what the tape is, or would you just see the edge of the tape.

MR J KOK: There's glass panel on the cover. I'm not quite sure but I'm sure you can see a section of this label on the cassette itself.

CHAIRPERSON: Now as I understand it, this device was never brought back to you after the explosion.

MR J KOK: I never saw it again Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know what tape was in it at the time?

MR J KOK: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the evidence and I speak subject to correction here, that there were two cassettes finally with the device, one was the Neil Diamond one, which would have had ...(indistinct) information on the cassette, so looking in it you would have seen: "This is Neil Diamond."

MR J KOK: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The other one was the cassette which had been in a case labelled "Evidence - Hit Squad".

MR J KOK: Mr Chairperson I did not know anything about that cassette. At that stage when we packaged it, it was BZN and Neil Diamond.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if that was the case, that would have been an ordinary plain cassette, so there would have been nothing indicative of what was in it, from looking through the glass top of the machine, it would have just been a cassette, the type one buys.

MR J KOK: As I understood from the evidence, it was not on the cassette itself, but it was on the container of the cassette, but I think you are right, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you wanted to interest someone in it, you would have to include the container, so when he received the package he saw there was a cassette in the machine and he saw he had an empty container saying "Evidence - Hit Squad" and would immediately conclude that that was the cassette that was in the machine, is that logical?

MR J KOK: Yes, that is logical.

CHAIRPERSON: Because if it had not been put in the machine, this is, I assume and I would like comment and perhaps argument or evidence on this, if there had merely been two tapes sent with the machine, one being Neil Diamond, one being Hit Squad, the recipient may have put the Hit Squad tape in his pocket and then given the machine and the other tape to a friend or a child to play with.

MR J KOK: I speculate, that is possibly so.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it seems, nobody has suggested to us, that there was any hit squad evidence on the tape of any importance. That this was just a device to distract attention which was would ensure that the machine wasn't handed over to someone else.

MR J KOK: It's possibly so.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I gather the whole purpose of the exercise of making a machine, a device as you did with the explosives in the earphones, was to aim at one person and one person only and not injure people in the vicinity.

MR J KOK: That is correct, Chair, that is how we manufactured it.

CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand, I'll come back after my next question, as I understand it, when the explosion went off, it would go from the earphones, kill the person, or severely injure the person, but there was no damage to what has been called the tape recorder.

MR J KOK: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That would have been available for inspection, I gather from what we have been told it was tested for fingerprints, presumably the cassettes were tested and things of that nature.

MR J KOK: Yes, I do accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Right, comments?

MR RAUTENBACH: Mr Chairman, may I just point out that there was evidence to the effect and that evidence is still available, that it seems that in the tape itself, in the machine itself, the walkman itself was a Neil Diamond tape at the time of the explosion, that's the evidence. The "Evidence - Hit Squad" tape had been removed from the cassette holder for some or other reason at that stage, so almost the only assumption one could have made was that a person was basically taking out the "Evidence - Hit Squad" tape and also testing the walkman to see if the walkman works, that's the only assumption.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was the other tape found?

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes, yes, it was found.

CHAIRPERSON: But it wasn't in the container.

MR RAUTENBACH: No, it wasn't in the container.

CHAIRPERSON: And it wasn't in the machine, it was lying loose.

MR RAUTENBACH: It wasn't in the machine. That's right. ...(indistinct) record.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh. So it clearly had not been listened to because if it had been, the explosion would have gone off.

One of my colleagues has just made the utterly confusing suggestion to me that the tape, the Hit Squad tape may have been in the machine when he tried it but that the batteries were no longer working, that he obtained new batteries and changed the tape to test it on the other tape. Well, it's pure speculation, isn't it?

MR RAUTENBACH: Well in fact we can take that a little bit further and that is that the batteries found inside the walkman were Phillips batteries and it was, from the wife of the deceased, he only used and he only bought Duracell batteries and that's why they thought that the batteries in the walkman came with the walkman.

CHAIRPERSON: Presumably if the supplier had been found and inquiries had been made, this could have been verified.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Yes, just one aspect Mr Chairman. Mr Kok, my learned colleague on the other side has asked you that if it wasn't your packaging, then the packaging must have been done at Vlakplaas, do you recall that?

MR J KOK: Yes, I recall that.

MR BOOYENS: And you said that you couldn't comment on this? You and those who understood postal interceptions were situated in the same building?

MR J KOK: No, we were not.

MR BOOYENS: Were they not also at Rebecca Street?

MR J KOK: No, they were not.

MR BOOYENS: Do you have any knowledge regarding postal interceptions which took place at that stage?

MR J KOK: Yes, but I wasn't involved in it, so I don't know much about it, but I was aware of postal interceptions.

MR BOOYENS: This doesn't go any further than a theory, but if post was sent from South Africa to abroad and addressed to a person such as Dirk Coetzee at that stage when Dirk Coetzee was in the news, do you think such an item would have been intercepted?

MR J KOK: I think it is the logical inference to accept that his post would be intercepted and that due to a WA10 operation that was approved, it was therefore approved that his post would be intercepted,

MR BOOYENS: Therefore this package or parcel would possibly have been posted by Bellingan in Johannesburg, been intercepted on the way by another section of the police, searched and then allowed to continue its journey, or repackaged, we don't really know.

MR J KOK: It's purely speculative, but it is a very viable theory that another unit may be involved that we don't know of and I think that that can be ascribed to the compartmentalisation which took place within the Security Forces.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it as logical to think that it may have been intercepted on the way back?

MR J KOK: Just as logical Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Somebody may have looked at the address of the sender and determined that it should get back there after they had found out what it was.

MR J KOK: Chairperson, my inference is also speculative, but I believe that the target may have been changed, however, I'm not certain that that is what really took place.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it if any further technical matters arise, we can recall the brothers?

MR BOOYENS: Yes, certainly, Mr Chairman, they both live in Pretoria and so that would be no problem.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, may I just, before the next applicant is called, place on record that as I undertook to do, I went through my papers and I discovered, which I think, ...(mike turned off)

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we try again Mr Hattingh, they may have completed the wiring.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman. As I undertook to do, I went through documents at home and I discovered some documents which I think, some of them at least, originally emanated from the offices of Cheadle, Thompson and Haysom, we were given these documents by the Prosecution at the time of Mr de Kock's trial. Amongst those documents, there was a photostat copy of a photograph of the complete brown packaging in which the walkman was sent.

Mr Chairman, to my embarrassment I discovered when I arrived here this morning, that I put this file in my briefcase instead of the correct file, so that one is unfortunately still at home. I will bring it next week. I also went through some of the evidence which was led at the inquest Mr Chairman, and I discovered the evidence of a Mrs Smith which appears in the bundle, I think it was, it appears in volume 12 of the record of the inquest proceedings. She was an employee at the post office at which the parcel was handed in and she identified her handwriting on one of the documents. Now I've been unable to identify the document to which she was referring, because she was referring to it as Exhibit A. I don't unfortunately have a copy of Exhibit Q, but I've discussed this matter with Mr Rautenbach, Mr Chairman, and she says on page 434 of the record, she's asked the following:

"Did you have a copy of this before you, with reference to Exhibit A?"

She answers: "Yes."

"Can you indicate to the court which section on that form was completed in your handwriting?"

And she replies:

"The middle section."

"Could you perhaps speak up please?"

And she says:

"Middle section of D J Coetzee."

"With the address?"

"That is correct."

The only document containing the name and address of Coetzee in manuscript, to my knowledge Mr Chairman, would be found in Exhibit...

MS LOCKHAT: D1.

MR HATTINGH: D1, what appears to be an insurance slip. The only name of Coetzee and address in manuscript appears on that document, so I assume that that is what she is referring to and I think that Mr Rautenbach agrees with me that that must be correct, but I can't be certain of that. I couldn't find any other documents which were handed in as exhibits, which contained the name and address of Mr Coetzee in manuscript.

CHAIRPERSON: And I understand these, the Attorney-General's Department and nobody has these exhibits anymore?

MR RAUTENBACH: Mr Chairman, I'm not sure. I remember at some stage we had some documents and whilst they were investigating, we gave all our photo's and whatever we had over to them and they obviously had all the exhibits, but it is impossible for me to say what the position is right now.

CHAIRPERSON: Well is the record still available?

MR RAUTENBACH: The inquest record?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RAUTENBACH: There must be a inquest record still available.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that would surely have a part of the record and list of exhibits, the inquest record, and they could tell us with some certainty what Exhibit Q was and confirm what Mr Hattingh has said. It seems probable but if that record is available, that could be perhaps confirmed and, speaking for myself, if it is possible to get, if they still have them, a copy of this from the post office, so one could see what would have been filled in in the middle. As I understand it, all we have in the photograph is the very top of the form and then the envelope is covering the rest of it, it might be of interest to see if there is a middle section that would logically have been filled in by her and what it would have been and whether it was something that she had to have been told by the person depositing the parcel and matters of that nature. So if you could ask the post office if they still use - they are probably less likely to throw anything away than the Attorney-General is and they may still have filed away somewhere these old insurance forms.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything else you'd like to add?

MR HATTINGH: No, Mr Chairman, I did find another stamp on the document which I will bring with me next week, which was a post office stamp, the Joubert Park Post Office stamp and it had writing on the stamp, something about insurance, "Versekering", so that seems to be another stamp that was placed on it at the time when the package or the parcel was handed in. I also found, Mr Chairman, an affidavit by my learned friend, Mr Rautenbach's attorney and attached to it a hand-written list of the names of persons from whom attempts were made to obtain handwriting specimens and fingerprints and from what I recall from the affidavit, that list was written down by either Mr Raditapole himself, of somebody from his office, during a discussion with Mr Kritzinger when they asked him which people's handwriting specimens and fingerprints they managed to obtain. I thought that that was the list on which it was indicated that Mr Radebe was deceased but I found no such indication on that list, but I will bring that list with me as well next week, Mr Chairman.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR LAMEY: Chairperson, the next applicant is Mr Kobus Klopper.