ON RESUMPTION
MR SIBANYONI: Your full names please, Mr Klopper.
KOBUS KLOPPER: (sworn states)
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, you may be seated. He is sworn in, Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson.
Chairperson, with your leave, the evidence regarding Mr Klopper's initial application was placed before you yesterday. I'm just going to be very brief in this regard.
Mr Klopper, we have already presented evidence regarding the first application and the mention of so-called informer fees which is embodied in that application, the preamble to your supplementary amnesty application before this Panel.
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: The particulars that you provide pertaining to the matter of Sweet Sambo, appear on page 62 up to and including page 66 of your amnesty application, is that correct? That would be your supplementary amnesty application.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Do you confirm the particulars embodied within this document?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: And is it also correct that the extract of your evidence during the de Kock trial, has been placed in a separate bundle before the Committee, and reference can be made to this evidence in as far as the Committee may require to do so?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Now just to come very briefly to one particular aspect, you were called to Col de Kock's residence, is that correct?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And when you arrived there, did you hear what it was about?
MR KLOPPER: I was contacted telephonically by de Kock and instructed to go to his residence. I cannot recall precisely what was said to me on the phone, but after I received the telephone call I went to his home and this was on a Thursday evening.
CHAIRPERSON: Thursday?
MR KLOPPER: It was a Thursday evening, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: Did you remain there or did you go with him anywhere?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, as far as I can recall, Mr de Kock and I went together to Gen Engelbrecht, and this was the first occasion upon which I visited Gen Engelbrecht's home, that is why I recall this specifically.
MR LAMEY: And can you recall where it was, where it was situated in Pretoria?
MR KLOPPER: If one drives past the Fairy Glen Pick 'n Pay, it would be in that area. Fairy Glen, towards the right of the Pick 'n Pay in Fairy Glen.
MR LAMEY: Once you arrived there, what did you do?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I remained in the vehicle, Mr de Kock and Engelbrecht stood at the gate discussing the incident. And on the way to Engelbrecht's home I was informed of the circumstances, that Flip de Beer and the others had made a mistake as it was explained to me that somebody had died during interrogation.
MR LAMEY: You state in your statement that Capt Flip de Beer was at that stage the Commander of the Security Branch at the Lebombo border post.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, at the Lebombo border post near Komatiepoort, he was the Commander of the Security Branch there.
MR LAMEY: You did not hear the content of the discussion between Col de Kock and Gen Engelbrecht, is that correct?
MR KLOPPER: As far as I know I was not present during the discussion.
MR LAMEY: Can you recall at which stage you received the instruction to destroy the body, was it before you went to Gen Engelbrecht's home or subsequent to this visit to Gen Engelbrecht's home?
MR KLOPPER: I'm not precisely certain whether it was before we got home that I was informed that we would be destroying the body, but I think it was on the way back to de Kock's residence that I was informed that we would use the buddha method to destroy the body.
MR LAMEY: Were you under the impression when you departed from Gen Engelbrecht's home and when you received the order that you had to destroy the body of a person who had died during detention, that this order came from Gen Engelbrecht?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, my impression after we departed from Gen Engelbrecht's home was that it enjoyed his full approval.
MR LAMEY: Was anything to the contrary communicated to you?
MR KLOPPER: As I've stated, this is the impression that I was under, it was the first time that I heard that Mr de Kock had decided upon his own initiative to do something like this. I believed to this day that it had been exercised with Mr Engelbrecht's approval and knowledge.
MR LAMEY: Could you tell the Committee briefly, from that point onwards did you return to de Kock's home and what happened subsequently.
MR KLOPPER: Once at his home the other members were contacted, that would be Snor Vermeulen, Blackie Swart and Chait, they were also instructed to come to his home and all of us were then there.
MR LAMEY: And then what happened subsequently?
MR KLOPPER: From that point onwards we were sent to meet Flip de Beer, and I recall that during the court trial there was some dispute about this. I cannot recall particularly where the rendezvous point would be. I know that we drove in two vehicles, in my vehicle there was Snor Vermeulen and I and then Blackie Swart and Chait drove in Swart's vehicle.
MR LAMEY: Let us just take this briefly. Ultimately you travelled in two vehicles and Vermeulen was with you in the vehicle?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, he was with me in the vehicle.
MR LAMEY: And Swart and Chait in another vehicle.
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: And at a certain point you encountered Flip de Beer on the other side of Middelburg.
MR KLOPPER: Yes. As I recall, Swart and Chait were not with me and Snor when we met the persons. If one drove past Middelburg, there was a garage on the right-hand side and we drove there and Flip de Beer and another person arrived there in a regular police bakkie. On the way back to Middelburg, on the left-hand side of the road, we stopped and the body was loaded from the police vehicle into my vehicle. I recall that the body was in rigor mortis and was wrapped in a blanket.
MR LAMEY: You say the body was naked and wrapped in a blanket?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: And you loaded the body into the vehicle?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, I had to put the left passenger seat back so that I could fit the body into the vehicle, and Snor Vermeulen sat behind me at the back. Because the body was already in rigor mortis we could not fold the body as such.
MR LAMEY: And on the way back you once again were joined by Chait and Swart?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: Where did you go then?
MR KLOPPER: From there we went back in the direction of the farm. It was very late. I recall that Snor's vehicle was at de Kock's home. We arranged to fetch the vehicle. If I recall correctly, Snor drove with Chait and Swart to fetch the vehicle and we once again met one another on the gravel road leading to Vlakplaas. We went there to fetch the explosives on the farm.
MR LAMEY: Who fetched the explosives?
MR KLOPPER: It was Snor. I cannot recall who was with Snor. And we then loaded the body back into his bakkie. It was kept there with the explosives.
MR LAMEY: Where did you go then?
MR KLOPPER: From there, I cannot recall the particular point in time, but we departed for Verdrag. I specifically drove along with, Swart and Chait were with the body in the bakkie.
MR LAMEY: Can you tell us where Verdrag is?
MR KLOPPER: It is on the way to Thabazimbi, past Warmbaths. It is actually closer to Thabazimbi than Warmbaths, it is in that environment in the Northern Province.
MR LAMEY: Is it a police training camp?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, it is a police training area.
MR LAMEY: And once you arrived there, did you need to make arrangements to obtain access?
MR KLOPPER: Yes. I recall that we arranged that Chait and Blackie would drive up and down in the road with the body in the bakkie and Snor and I would enter the training area. There was a Captain there, I cannot recall his name, we had to obtain permission from him to use the explosives range. I know that he told us that our explosions should not be too big because there were students who were being trained there and in the past they had explosions that were just too big and they caused considerable damage in the area, that is why we had to promise that the explosion would not be too big. I recall that Snor was familiar to these persons, they knew each other.
MR LAMEY: And ultimately you obtained access?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And did you then destroy the body there by means of explosives?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct. There was a handgrenade range and the range which they used for explosive scenes. We placed the body there. As I've said it was already in rigor mortis. We placed the explosives on the body and detonated the explosion.
MR LAMEY: And these explosions were repeated a number of times?
MR KLOPPER: Yes.
MR LAMEY: That was to completely destroy the body so that no traces of the body could be detected in the area.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, we had to do so on various occasions. I know this is quite shocking. With the initial or first explosion one would find quite large pieces of the body remaining in the area and as one collected these remains, one would re-explode them.
MR LAMEY: Very well. I don't think it's really necessary to go into all the finer detail of the matter, but this was then conducted and after you were finished there, what did you do then?
MR KLOPPER: Once we were finished and there was no evidence remaining ...(intervention)
MR LAMEY: This was on the Friday?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, it was on the Friday because we drove through on the Thursday evening. Yesterday I consulted the computer and ...(intervention)
MR LAMEY: Was this with the 1991 calendar?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, it was a Thursday evening that we drove to fetch the body and the destruction then took place on the Friday.
MR LAMEY: And once you had completed destroying the body, did you go to any place to have drinks?
MR KLOPPER: From that point onwards, Snor and I went back to the Verdrag training area, to the administrative base and we had a few drinks with the people there and thanked them for the use of the farm and handed the keys back, and from that point onwards we went back to Pretoria. I think it was dark when we returned to Pretoria.
MR LAMEY: This was the Friday?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And did you then report any further on the course of the operation?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, on that very same evening I reported to Col de Kock that everything had been achieved successfully.
MR LAMEY: Very well. Could you tell us furthermore, whether there was any discussion regarding this matter between you and Col Herman du Plessis?
MR KLOPPER: What I recall is that on the Monday after the incident, Gen Engelbrecht and Col de Kock were not in Pretoria, they were at some or other conference or something like that. We went to head office every morning because we would have to meet with senior officials there every morning ...(intervention)
MR LAMEY: What was your rank at that stage?
MR KLOPPER: I think I was a Lieutenant. Willie came to me and said that Col du Plessis asked him whether he knew anything about this body and Willie said that he didn't know, he was told to ask me because I was a more senior member. Col du Plessis called me in and I told him yes, this is what happened and that it wasn't necessary for him to worry about anything. He still told me that we would have to inform the Generals because there would be a press conference and he had to give them the assurance that nothing would be traced back to the police's side, and that is when I gave him the assurance.
MNR LAMEY: "En hy het vir u gesê hy moet verder rapport maak aan die Generaals?"
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: You also state in your statement that there was quite a lot of publicity in the media due to the disappearance of the person.
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR LAMEY: And that the Detective Branch as well as the army were looking for this person and you heard that the person that they were searching for went by the name of Sweet Sambo.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, the first time that I heard his name was in the press, but I recall that there was an extensive search under the leadership of the then Col Alberts.
MR LAMEY: Very well. And then with regard to the political objective as you have set it out on page 65 and 66, do you confirm this, do you confirm that you regarded it in that light?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct. If a member of the Security Branch would be arrested and convicted, such as in the case of Nofomela and Coetzee, it would have a domino effect or a snowball effect on the Security Branch, and I think that the risk would have been tremendous for us.
MR LAMEY: And this was seen in the light of the repercussions or the political repercussions which it would create if the circumstances surrounding the death of the person were ever to come to light and more specifically, the role that the Security Branch under the leadership of Flip de Beer, had played in the whole matter?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAMEY: You request amnesty for the offence of accessory to murder, defeating the ends of justice, desecration of a body or any other offence or unlawful act which may emanate from the evidence presented here. We could add to that Mr Klopper, under the circumstances, the illegal possession and/or application of explosives, which would be a transgression in terms of the Explosives Act.
MR KLOPPER: I've not discussed this with my legal representative, but I was a trained demolition’s expert, Snor Vermeulen and I, perhaps Chait as well, but Swart wasn't, but under that legislation we were in legal possession of explosives as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps the application was unlawful.
MR LAMEY: Yes, but the application for this purpose.
MR KLOPPER: That would then be so.
MR LAMEY: Yes, the possession of the explosives per se, would then not be unlawful if it was kept by the Security Police or Vlakplaas under those circumstances.
Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Klopper, can you recall what time it was on the Thursday evening that you received this call from Mr de Kock?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I cannot recall exactly. I recall that Swart was at my residence with a friend of mine and from there I was called. It's difficult to give you the time, but it was during the evening.
MR HATTINGH: Your evidence during the trial was that you received a radio-paging message.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And you also testified during the trial that you did not immediately react to it because it was after hours and you continued with your social event there at your flat.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And at a stage you were asked about time - now I am not certain according to your statement, if the time you refer to here is the time that you received the call or the time that you reacted on the call.
MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall what time it was, Chairperson. What I said in court is closer to what I have can say now, not so much time had elapsed.
MR HATTINGH: I will find the passage now, but one of these events took place at 8 o'clock that evening.
MR KLOPPER: That's possible, that's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Is it possible that only 8 o'clock that evening you went to Mr de Kock's house?
MR KLOPPER: That is possible, Chairperson. If I recall correctly, I saw in Gen Engelbrecht's statement that I made an entry in my diary at that stage and the entry indicated 8 o'clock, so it is quite possible.
MR HATTINGH: So would that be the time that you arrived at Gen Engelbrecht's house?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, the time that I went to Col de Kock's house and from there we went to Gen Engelbrecht's house.
MR HATTINGH: Does that mean that the radio page message was received before 8 o'clock?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: And probably quite a while before 8 o'clock that evening.
MR KLOPPER: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: So it was early evening that you received this call from Mr de Kock, or the message on the radio pager?
MR KLOPPER: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And you have already said that this was the Thursday evening.
MR KLOPPER: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: You don't know whether Mr de Kock was in contact with Col Herman du Plessis on the Friday?
MR KLOPPER: I don't know, Chairperson, we spent the whole day at Verdrag that Friday and we only returned that evening, so it is possible.
MR HATTINGH: Yes, because I get the impression from your evidence, Mr Klopper, that the enquiries that Col du Plessis directed at you indicates that he either knew or had a suspicion that the police could have been involved.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that was my impression, that he had a suspicion that we were involved, but the impression that I had was that he was not sure.
MR HATTINGH: And the feedback that he had to give was for purposes of the press conference and he had to assure the police that this incident would not return to the police.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: So he suspected police involvement or he knew of it.
MR KLOPPER: My impression was that he suspected it and he wanted to set it up as such so that he could deny the whole incident.
MR HATTINGH: As a member of Vlakplaas you were also involved in the investigation into smuggling of weapons, specifically in the Skwamaans area.
MR KLOPPER: That's correct, at several occasions. That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And you applied for amnesty with regard to an incident that took place at this base?
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And is it correct that - I'm not entirely certain if you testified to this effect, but during the hearing of that incident there was evidence that the weapons that entered the country at that point eventually ended up in the hands of the political factions on the East Rand.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that's correct. As Mr de Kock had said, it also landed up in the hands of criminals.
MR HATTINGH: But it also had a political connotation? ...(transcriber's interpretation)
MR KLOPPER: That is correct, yes.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR CORNELIUS: I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson.
You said when you went to Engelbrecht's house you were in the car, that's right?
MR KLOPPER: That's correct.
MS LOCKHAT: Did you actually get to see Mr de Kock and Mr Engelbrecht talking?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, although it was evening they were standing next to the gate and talking, and what I can recall is that de Kock was on the outside of the gate and Engelbrecht on the inside of the gate, but I did see both of them standing there and talking although I could not hear what they were saying.
MS LOCKHAT: Because just in the criminal trial you weren't too certain whether you saw Mr Engelbrecht, can you comment on that?
MR KLOPPER: I cannot comment on that, but what I recall today is specifically that that was as it was, Chairperson.
MS LOCKHAT: Just for page reference, number 30 of bundle 2, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MS LOCKHAT: That's correct. Where he states that - it's line 31, where he states that he didn't see whether it was Gen Engelbrecht or not. Just line 31. Shall I read it out, Chairperson or is it necessary?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, may I say that it's as if I saw him standing there and he was waiting standing there. That is the impression that I have of it.
MR LAX: I've just read through that portion myself and basically it says
"When did you see him? Later you saw him at the gate."
"What I mean is I did not see that Gen Engelbrecht was standing there waiting."
So it's not that clear.
MS LOCKHAT: Ja, and he also goes further and says he didn't actually see the General's face. So he wasn't sure whether it was the General anyway. That's just ...
MR KLOPPER: That's correct.
MS LOCKHAT: So we can conclude that you're not certain whether you saw the General or not.
MR KLOPPER: No, but it was said to me that it was Gen Engelbrecht's house and at a later stage when I was at his house I did see that it was his house. But at that stage it was so, yes, as I understood it.
CHAIRPERSON: I think if one looks at that evidence it's fair to say it is clear he saw somebody talking and he wasn't sure if it was the General or the General's wife, but assumed it was the General.
MS LOCKHAT: That's correct, Chairperson.
When Mr de Kock was finished talking to the General, Engelbrecht, did he tell you what the conversation was about, did he say yes, he had authorised it?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I cannot recall what he said verbatim, but the impression that I had and what I believed up to a moment earlier, was that the circumstances were explained to the General and that it had his approval that we would dispose of the corpse.
MS LOCKHAT: I just want to get just the one issue regarding just the corpse. Was the body very bruised and injured? Because I'm not too sure. Can you just give us just the evidence on that?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, what I do recall is that there were lots of marks on the body, specifically the day - because it was during the day when we eventually embarked on the destruction, there were lots of marks on the body. The head was quite swollen, but I recall lots of marks and the swelling of the head of the body. It was clear to me that this man was tortured quite a lot.
MS LOCKHAT: Just regarding Mr du Plessis's meeting and your meeting, at page 64 of your application, that's bundle 1, you said du Plessis had come to Vlakplaas and he'd asked you
"... also asked me if everything went well, which I then confirmed to him."
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct.
MS LOCKHAT: Did he ask you as a general thing if everything went well and then you had informed him of what happened, or can you explain that to us?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, as I have explained to you, he spoke to Willie Nortje first and when Willie Nortje did not have any knowledge of this and he referred him to me, he spoke to me. But as I have tried to explain to you yesterday, it was not necessary to explain or ask pertinently in Afrikaans. By means of language use and in our own type of language which we understood among each other, it wasn't always necessary to ask directly, but that was what was asked of me and I told him everything was clean there and they would not find the body.
MS LOCKHAT: You also said that you suspected that he had an idea that Vlakplaas was involved in this.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, my impression was that he suspected that we were involved, but that he did not know, he did not pertinently know but he did suspect and I could confirm this suspicion of his.
MS LOCKHAT: So would you think that Mr de Kock had spoken to him previously regarding his attitude?
MR KLOPPER: My personal impression was no, nobody spoke to him beforehand. And as I have said to you, my recollection was that Engelbrecht and de Kock were not there during that time and that he was in overall command of C Group at that stage.
MR LAX: Except to say this much, that the words you've used here are that he said to you "Did everything go well?" So I mean, if he asked you "Did everything go well?", he's referring to a specific instance that he clearly knows about.
MR KLOPPER: No, Chairperson, if that is how I expressed myself, it was incorrect. My impression was that he did not know pertinently whether we were involved, that's why he asked Willie and that Willie referred him to me. But my impression was that he suspected that we were involved and that I then said to him everything went well and everything was destroyed, the body was disposed of. ...(transcriber's interpretation)
MR LAX: So it was you who said to him everything went okay.
MR KLOPPER: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: He didn't ask you whether everything went okay?
MR KLOPPER: No, that is why I say my impression was that he did not know whether we were involved there or not.
MS LOCKHAT: And then just the last issue. You said that he was - was he going to report this to the Generals afterwards?
MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, what my recollection is - and I think it was Gen le Roux that he mentioned to me, who was lying on his neck to find out whether they knew anything about this so that could have a press conference and that the police would deny all of this and that the man did not die in police detention and so forth, Chairperson.
MS LOCKHAT: And which branch was Gen le Roux at?
MR KLOPPER: He was part of the Security Branch, Chairperson.
MS LOCKHAT: Was that at head office?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that was at Security Head Office. This is the Maponya le Roux that Mr de Kock always refers to.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
MR LAX: Mr Klopper, isn't it correct that you're relying on the fact that you got an instruction to do this?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson, but you must understand the culture of the police in general, not necessarily the Security Police, but the culture of the police was as such that we would protect each other. For example, when I used the "ranks" as such I was an outcast and there was a whole system that worked against me, from all levels. You don't work like this, you protect each other. That is the whole culture of the police since those days and I think that today it is still like that, that you protect each other. So it is not necessarily about an instruction itself, the instruction did lend a hand, but that's how it went.
MR LAX: I'm just looking at your political objective, which is quite detailed and wondering whether at the time it even entered your mind or whether it's something you've ex post facto sat down and thought about. You know if you got an instruction to do something, you wouldn't have said no to Col de Kock.
MR KLOPPER: Definitely not, never. Yes, that is correct, but you must understand it was difficult circumstances at that time. This was after Mr de Klerk's address, the police were in the spotlight, the CCB had been exposed, and we learnt to protect each other and we did succeed in this.
MR LAX: I understand the culture, I'm talking more about this fairly elaborate set of reasoning you've developed here for political objective and I mean at the time when you were told to go and do this, you probably didn't sit down and say to yourself hell, ja, no, this is going to do this and that and develop a whole argument.
MR KLOPPER: Entirely correct, you are correct.
CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, you were all summonsed there that evening, you were told by your commanding officer to go and do something, you believed he had instructions from higher up, so you all went and did it.
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct, absolutely, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Just one aspect.
It is indeed so that one - all the information at that stage would not have gone through your mind, Mr Klopper, but isn't it indeed so that when one prepares the application, then one thinks back to the circumstances which reigned at that stage?
MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is correct, and at that stage you were not allowed to think too much, you were just told what to do, you could not think about it, then it would be a problem.
MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR KLOPPER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to call any ...?
MR LAMEY: No witness, thank you, Chairperson.
MR CORNELIUS: I call Mr Vermeulen.
