CHAIRPERSON: I feel I should once again make certain explanations. Those of you who were here yesterday, will recollect that we adjourned to obtain certain other documents. In this regard I would like to express my thanks, and I think the thanks of all of us, to Lynne Lockhat and to Huet(?) Kok who spent yesterday rushing from place to place, from the Attorney-General's office to Middelburg, to Alberton, to obtain further documents which are relevant to the present proceedings.
We will now start dealing with the evidence of certain of the applicants, but the representative of the victims has not had an opportunity to consult them about the new information that has emerged from the papers we now have, and after we have heard two of the applicants, the matter will probably be adjourned again.
I think we can now start as arranged, dealing with the applicants, leading Mr Tait on the basis that it should be possible to dispose of him and then dealing with Mr de Kock in-chief, his cross-examination to stand over.
MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, the parties haven't placed themselves on record yet.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR BOOYENS: The various legal representatives haven't placed themselves on record yet, I presume ...
CHAIRPERSON: The Committee remains the same. Will the legal representatives please put themselves on record and say a few words for the sake of those transcribing the record.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is P A Hattingh, I'm instructed by Mr Schalk Hugo, and we appear for Mr de Kock.
MR BOOYENS: May it please the Committee, Mr Chairman, and gentlemen. Kobus Booyens, I appear for the applicant, Mr J H Tait.
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Wim Cornelius, I appear on behalf of the fourth applicant, Leon William John Flores.
MR LAMEY: As it pleases you, Chairman. Lamey, I act on behalf of applicants Bosch and Nortje.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson. My name is Brian Koopedi, I appear for the victim in this matter, Ms Tandi Shongo(?)
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson. Lynne Lockhat on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
CHAIRPERSON: Is your client here?
MR KOOPEDI: My client is here, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: If I could say to her that we have asked our Leader of Evidence to cause further enquiries to be made to ascertain if we possibly can, the whereabouts of your husband's body and that you will be informed as soon as we obtain any such information.
MR BOOYENS: May it please the Committee, Mr Chairman. I call the first applicant to give evidence, Mr Johan Hendrik Tait. He will be giving his evidence in Afrikaans.
MR LAX: Mr Tait, your full names for the record.
MR TAIT: Johan Hendrik Tait.
MR LAX: Do you have any objection to taking the oath?
JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: (sworn states)
MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, sworn in. You may be seated.
EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Tait, your amnesty application appears on page 50 of the bundle, is that correct?
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: You have on previous occasions given evidence about your background and some of your more senior colleagues will be able to give more thorough evidence about this, but do you confirm the evidence regarding your background, as it appears on page 50, 51, 52 up to and including the top of 53?
MR TAIT: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Now with regard to this particular incident, there are just a number of aspects. At the stage when the incident took place you were not familiar, and even when you compiled your application you did not really know who the deceased person was with regard to the incident.
MR TAIT: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: But you accept that the person who is named is indeed the person who was killed during this incident?
MR TAIT: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Now is it correct that during 1988 you were stationed at Vlakplaas?
MR TAIT: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: And your amnesty application makes the statement on page 53
"On an unknown date during 1988, while I was a member of the Special Task Force ..."
... that isn't exactly correct, you were a member of Vlakplaas and you were with members of the Special Task Force, is that correct?
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: And were busy following up certain information regarding an MK cadre who found himself in a particular residential area?
MR TAIT: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: You arrived at a house, is that correct?
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: And there were quite a few people there among others, Mr de Kock and some of your colleagues as well as Task Force people, people that you didn't know?
MR TAIT: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Now the Task Force people, as you've stated on the top of page 54, encircled the house and were busy penetrating the house, is that correct?
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: And where were you at that stage?
MR TAIT: I was in a plot at the back of the house.
MR BOOYENS: Who was with you?
MR TAIT: As far as I can recall, Mr Flores was also there at that stage.
MR BOOYENS: And tell us briefly what took place.
MR TAIT: The person apparently escaped from the house, he jumped over the wall and saw us where we were in the adjacent plot. He tried to jump back over the wall, upon which Mr Flores fired at him with his uzzi and struck him.
MR BOOYENS: And I assume that the person fell down.
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Did you yourself fire any shots?
MR TAIT: No.
MR BOOYENS: Can you recall how many shots were fired by Mr Flores?
MR TAIT: No.
MR BOOYENS: Could it have been one or more than one, or are you not sure?
MR TAIT: I cannot say.
MR BOOYENS: This person then fell down, is that correct?
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: And after that he was arrested so to speak and placed in the back of a police van, is that correct?
MR TAIT: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Did you have anything further to do with him?
MR TAIT: No.
MR BOOYENS: Did you and some of the other Task Force members depart from there to follow up other information?
MR TAIT: Yes, there were other houses that we searched in order to obtain further information.
MR BOOYENS: Just for the sake of clarity, the other houses that you searched, this had nothing to do with any information that was obtained with this particular incident, these were separate operations?
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct, these were predetermined operations.
MR BOOYENS: Thus you say that you were aware that an ambulance was called in but you never saw any ambulance arriving.
MR TAIT: That is correct. After the incident I departed, we went to the other houses.
MR BOOYENS: And you never again had anything further to do with the deceased.
MR TAIT: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Later you heard that he died during interrogation.
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: And have you heard now that it is possible that he was assaulted and so forth during interrogation, however you do not know anything about this particularly?
MR TAIT: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: So Mr Tait, the basis upon which you have requested amnesty is your involvement in an incident during which one of your colleagues shot someone under circumstances which could be regarded by prosecuting authorities as unnecessary violence and you know that the man died during interrogation and you did not report anything about this.
MR TAIT: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: You confirm the rest of your application?
MR TAIT: Correct.
MR BOOYENS: That is the evidence, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions for this witness.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair. Wim Cornelius for the fourth applicant, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson. Lamey on behalf of Nortje and Bosch.
Mr Tait, I just want to be certain regarding the question of the ambulance which was called. Are you not certain whether this was done or were you no longer there or what is the situation that you recall?
MR TAIT: As far as I can recall an ambulance was called.
MR LAMEY: I just want to put it to you that Mr Nortje's recollection is that an ambulance was not called at any stage.
MR TAIT: Yes, Chairperson, I would not be able to make any statements about Mr Nortje's recollection, but as far as I can recall it was said that an ambulance should be called.
MR LAMEY: Was this before the commencement of the interrogation, or could it have been after his death?
MR TAIT: I cannot recall at which stage this request was put in.
MR LAMEY: You cannot recall at which stage, very well. I've got no further questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CHAIRPERSON: You only came back after his death, as I understand it.
MR TAIT: Yes, Chairperson, after he was shot I departed and I cannot recall whether I did indeed return or whether the person was already gone, but I have no further recollection of that.
MR SIBANYONI: Who said the ambulance should be called?
MR TAIT: I cannot say with certainty who it was, I can no longer recall.
MR LAMEY: No further questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson. One question for Mr Tait.
This wall, where was this wall, was the wall surrounding the house from which the deceased came from? The wall you say he jumped.
MR TAIT: Yes, it was an adjacent wall. As I can imagine the wall was directly behind the house.
MR KOOPEDI: So one could - if I understand you well, one could say that wall served as the boundary between that house and perhaps other houses all to the street.
MR TAIT: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson.
How far from the house did the deceased fall when he was shot, was it a distance away from the house, was it nearby? Can you give us some information regarding that.
MR TAIT: As far as I can recall he had jumped over the wall and he fell on the other side of the wall.
CHAIRPERSON: The same side as you or back on the house side?
MR TAIT: On the side of the house, on the other side of the wall.
MS LOCKHAT: And then just from the time that you all surrounded the house and the time he was shot, how long did that take place?
MR TAIT: Unfortunately I would not be able to say.
MS LOCKHAT: You can't guess, five minutes or twenty minutes or ...?
MR TAIT: Unfortunately I cannot say.
MS LOCKHAT: And then just your initial instruction, was it just to effect arrest, as you mention in your amnesty application form?
MR TAIT: That is as far as I can recall.
MS LOCKHAT: And on page 54 in your amnesty application form, at the second paragraph you stated that Mr de Kock started questioning the deceased, did you see that yourself or is that just what you heard?
MR TAIT: I did not see this myself because the person was taken and Mr de Kock was in charge, so it would have been logical that he would be the one to commence the interrogation.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have not further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
MR SIBANYONI: But Mr Tait, why did you put it in your statement that as far as you can remember, de Kock started the questioning, if you didn't see it?
MR TAIT: As I've stated, Mr de Kock was in charge of the operation, so it would have been automatic that he would be the one to begin the interrogation of the man. I assumed that he would be interrogated by Mr de Kock.
CHAIRPERSON: Why do you think he was interrogated, this man who had been shot and collapsed?
MR TAIT: There would certainly have been more information which could have been obtained from him regarding whether or not he was alone or whether there were other persons with him.
MR SIBANYONI: I've got no further questions, Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX: Just one thing. As I understood your evidence-in-chief, and it was really the way it was put to you by your counsel, you left the scene of the shooting ...(intervention)
MR TAIT: That is correct.
MR LAX: ... to fulfil other enquiries.
MR TAIT: That's correct, Chairperson, there were still more places which had to be investigated and I departed immediately after the shooting incident with some of the other members of the Special Task Force.
MR LAX: Where were these places in relation to this house?
MR TAIT: Chairperson, I cannot make any statements about this, but as far as I can imagine it was in the same vicinity because I don't believe that we actually drove to these other places.
MR LAX: So it would have been adjacent houses, surely?
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAX: Was this not as a result of information obtained from the questioning of this person?
MR TAIT: No, Chairperson, according to my recollection these places had already been identified as places that had to be investigated.
MR LAX: You see, Mr de Kock in his application, makes it clear that people were sent off to other places as a result of information obtained from the deceased.
MR TAIT: Chairperson, I cannot recall it as such because I did not remain at the scene. I would have had to remain at the scene for quite some time before my departure and as far as I can recall I left the scene of the incident virtually immediately.
MR LAX: You see if one looks at the general tenor of this operation, it was to attempt to arrest this man. The whole operation was to go to a particular place, to penetrate that house and to find this man Thabang that's mentioned in all the papers. There's no mention made of other houses that needed to be searched as well as part of the operation or anything else, as part of the original planning of the operation. Do you understand what I'm saying?
MR TAIT: Yes, I understand you.
MR LAX: And yet on your version that was part of the plan.
MR TAIT: Chairperson, when I made this statement it may be that I was mistaken with regard to previous actions and I may have confused various incidents.
MR LAX: Now just one small little thing. Just bear with me one second, Chair.
You said that there were Task Force people present and Vlakplaas people present, who else was present as far as you can recall?
MR TAIT: I can recall the Task Force and then also the Vlakplaas members. Unfortunately I cannot give you any names, I just know that the Task Force was applied, but I don't know who these persons were by name.
MR LAX: My question if I can be more specific is, were there members from any other areas there, in addition to, or units, in addition to Task Force and Vlakplaas, as far as you can recall?
MR TAIT: It may be so that I have not mentioned this because it would be logical that the Security Branch members who produced the original information, would also have been present.
MR LAX: And where was that from as far as you know?
MR TAIT: Chairperson, yesterday morning I read my statement and I read about Germiston Security Branch members. I did not mention this in my statement but it would have been so that they would have been there if this was their operation.
MR LAX: Yes. Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: There are various matters which I'm afraid I'm going to introduce. Firstly, who was in command of the unit that left the scene and went off to other houses?
MR TAIT: Chairperson, unfortunately I cannot tell you, I can no longer recall who was in command.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it Mr de Kock?
MR TAIT: No, Chairperson, I would have remembered if it was him who accompanied us to the other houses, but I cannot say with one hundred percent certainty that it is or isn't him. There is a possibility, but I cannot recall anything like that.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Mr de Kock fire any shots that day?
MR TAIT: No, Chairperson, because the only shots that I saw at the back of the fence where I was, were those which were fired by Mr Flores.
CHAIRPERSON: And I'm going to ask you about that because we have got statements from Mr Flores and Mr van Dyk, in which they say that they pursued this man for a long distance down the road, round other houses and it took about 20 minutes before they caught up with him and shot him. What do you say to that?
MR TAIT: I cannot recall this. As I have said, what I can recall is that Mr Flores and I found ourselves at the back of the house at a certain stage. It may be that he ran around there, but as far as my memory allows, he and I at that stage were at the back of the fence. This is what I've stated in my affidavit.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and you say he climbed over the fence at the back of the house, he saw you two, he tried to get back again and Flores shot him and he fell into the yard at the back of the house.
MR TAIT: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And there he was arrested and taken away to the house.
MR TAIT: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see van Dyk there at all?
MR TAIT: Not as far as I can recall, Chairperson. It may be that he was there, but as far as I can recall when I made my statement, I could identify Mr Flores due to the fact that I saw him firing shots at the person.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any warning shots being fired?
MR TAIT: I cannot recall that any warning shots were fired, but I cannot exclude the possibility that they were indeed fired. I would not be able to elaborate on this.
CHAIRPERSON: Was any warning shouted?
MR TAIT: Chairperson, I cannot say with certainty.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR LAX: Just one thing, Chair.
With regard to van Dyk, you say you didn't see him and you can't remember him being there, but surely if he had fired shots or a shot, you would recall that, it would have been right next to you or nearby you.
MR TAIT: It would have had to have been near to me, but I cannot recall that I saw Mr van Dyk there or that he fired any shots there.
MR LAX: Mr van Dyk says he was with Flores and you say you were with Flores.
MR TAIT: That is correct.
MR LAX: And van Dyk says he saw Flores shoot the man and you say you saw Flores shoot the man.
MR TAIT: That is correct, Chairperson. I just cannot recall seeing Mr van Dyk shooting the man or that I saw him there. It may be possible, but at the time of making my statement it was about 12 to 13 years of the fact and I couldn't recall everything in precise detail.
MR LAX: Yes, no, no, I understand it's a long time ago, I don't expect you to remember everything. Were other members present there with you or were you just, just the three of you? Or just the two of you. I mean let's assume you're mistaken and it's only the two of you. Were there any other members present there at the time of the shooting?
MR TAIT: According to me Chairperson, and my recollection, at the back of the wall where the man jumped over I can only recall me and Mr Flores and the fact that Mr Flores fired at the man. It may be possible that other people were present there, but I cannot recall this.
MR LAX: And then just one final aspect. Did you and Flores take this man back to the place where he was loaded into the vehicle?
MR TAIT: No, Chairperson, I had nothing further to do with the man.
MR LAX: So did you just leave him lying there?
MR TAIT: Chairperson, I don't know about the other persons who were also present there, but I did not carry him to the vehicle, it must have been some of the other persons whom I cannot recall.
MR LAX: After the man was shot, what exactly did you do? Did you just stand and watch, did you radio for help, did you call for help?
MR TAIT: No, Chairperson, as I have stated, we withdrew and we went to the other houses. There were other members there, quite a few other persons who were present there who would then have assisted the man, but I did not assist in providing any further help to the man and we departed immediately.
MR LAX: Who told you to leave the scene? Somebody must have given you an instruction.
MR TAIT: Yes, that would have been so, but I cannot recall who the person was who told us to deal with the other houses.
MR LAX: And you're quite sure this person was just over the wall at the back of the property?
MR TAIT: That is how I recall it, that he was on the other side of the wall. That is where he collapsed.
MR LAX: Did you actually look over the wall to see him there, or are you just assuming this?
MR TAIT: I cannot say, I may have looked over. I believe that I must have looked over, but I cannot say with certainty.
MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it a solid wall?
MR TAIT: As far as I can recall it was a solid wall.
CHAIRPERSON: And how high, approximately?
MR TAIT: It was the regular style of concrete wall. If I had to give an estimate I would say just over six to seven feet high. If I had to give an estimate.
CHAIRPERSON: Higher than the average man, a little bit higher than the average man.
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct, one couldn't simply peer over the wall. If one was standing in front of it, one would have to climb up the wall in order to see over to the other side.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Yes, I would just like to clarify a few things, Mr Chairman.
You were referred to Mr van Dyk. You had a colleague at Vlakplaas, Mr Paul van Dyk, is that correct?
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: And I think that the Mr van Dyk to which you were referred was a Mr Karel van Dyk from the Germiston Security Branch. Do you know this man? His name was Karel, he's also known as Kallie.
MR TAIT: Yes, I'm aware of a Kallie van Dyk from Germiston.
MR BOOYENS: But you cannot recall that he was there.
MR TAIT: No.
MR BOOYENS: And then just something else. Upon various occasions you stated that you could not recall and so forth, for which reason did you leave the Police Force?
MR TAIT: Post-traumatic stress disorder.
MR BOOYENS: And indeed you are instituting a claim for injury in service in this regard.
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Does this affect your memory?
MR TAIT: That is correct, my memory is affected by the disorder.
MR BOOYENS: Are you receiving medical treatment for your condition?
MR TAIT: Yes.
MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
CHAIRPERSON: Have we seen anything in this regard, on an earlier occasion? I think we have, haven't we?
MR BOOYENS: I think you did. In fact I think it was in the Chand matter, Mr Chairman, that's my attorney's recollection. We've got the medical certificate in any case, I'll ask my attorney to bring a copy and ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well my recollection is we have all seen it in one of the ... Thank you.
MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Does that conclude the evidence which you wish to lead?
MR BOOYENS: That concludes the evidence on behalf of this witness, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Well as we have agreed, and I think everyone present agreed to this, we are at this stage prepared to release the applicant from further attendance, subject to the fact that if it should become necessary that he be recalled, you will make
arrangements. It's subject to that he is otherwise released from further attendance.
MR BOOYENS: I'm indebted to the Committee, Mr Chairman, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, may I call Mr de Kock as the next applicant.
