Amnesty Hearings

MR SIBANYONI: Mr de Kock, your full names please.

MR DE KOCK: Eugene Alexander de Kock.

MR SIBANYONI: Do you have any objection to taking the prescribed oath?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, be seated. He is sworn in, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr de Kock, you are an applicant with regard to this incident and your application appears from page 1 to 7 of the bundle, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And in as far as it was possible for you to study your application, I see here on page 3 it is very difficult to decipher everything, do you confirm the correctness of the allegations contained therein?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, my attorney undertook - and it's just as well that he's not here at the moment, undertook to get more legible copies of this particular page, unfortunately he'd forgotten to do so, we will let you have them in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: I have had great difficulty trying to read the bottom half, the top half is alright.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, Mr Chairman, we'll let you have better copies. Mr Chairman, might I at the same time refer to these documents, I assume that they are going to be handed in as exhibits, the documents that we were handed this morning. If we could just number them so that I could refer to them during the evidence of Mr de Kock.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before we do that, there's one other matter which I would like to clear up with you, and that is on the document page 4. The last sentence in paragraph 8A, is that that he accepts full responsibility for the death of this MK member's death and the operation - and then I can't read ... "... wat deur ..."

MR LAX: "... wat deur ons uitgevoer is." I think it is.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, I think that is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right. I've got two bundles, have you got two bundles?

MR HATTINGH: I've actually got two bundles and then the post-mortem ...

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, three. The post-mortem, shall we call that A. That is the post-mortem report and an affidavit by the doctor who performed the post-mortem, well I take it it was going to be an affidavit. My copy is unsigned. Oh, the original hand-written one is signed and attested to.

The next one is a bundle starting with -

"Kasper Johannes Schoeman"

We'll call that B, it already has a B on the first page, and that is paginated.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, I see, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And finally, the bundle starting off

"To the District Commandant SA Polisie dated the 24th of February 1989".

That will be C. That is also paginated.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Very well, Mr de Kock ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We had yesterday the affidavit of Mr Bosch, but I think that is to form part of his application, which would then be 49A. Right.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr de Kock, in your application you could not recall the date and we have obtained documentation indicating that the incident took place on the 7th of November 1988, are you prepared to accept this as the correct date?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Now on that particular date, were you involved in the incident which took place in the Vosloorus area?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Just for the purposes of the record, Vosloorus is a residential area near Alberton, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Who was involved in the operation and how did it come to be that Vlakplaas became involved in the operation?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, the Germiston Security Branch directed a request to Vlakplaas and they requested assistance, among others also askaris. The information which was conveyed to me was that between the Germiston Security Branch and the Witbank Security Branch, between those two branches they were occupied in monitoring the telephones of suspected ANC/MK members who were operating in the Germiston area as well as the Witbank area. They requested that we, Vlakplaas, assist them with the detection of these members and askaris and I also co-opted the Special Task Force of the SAP, to assist us in the event of us requiring more fire power or a larger group.

MR HATTINGH: So ultimately a group of persons went to a particular house in Vosloorus, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, all of us, the Witbank Security Branch as well as the Germiston Branch, me and my unit as well as the Task Force, converged at the Germiston Security Branch offices, with the Task Force for the purposes of services, under my command.

MR HATTINGH: Was any information conveyed to you with regard to the identity of the persons who you would be looking for?

MR DE KOCK: A variety of information was conveyed to us, that this was an operational group of the ANC which was operating there. Among others, the information indicated that there was a plan - and this was specifically stated, there was a plan to bomb a Wimpy Milk Bar, among others. And reference was made to this group as a hard-core MK group. In other words, a hardened core of operatives.

MR HATTINGH: Was any mention made of any possible involvement of this group in previous incidents before this date?

MR DE KOCK: It may have happened. I've noted in the other applications something to this effect, but with the composition of my application I did not have an independent recollection of this and that is the reason why I did not mention this. It may have been mentioned to us.

MR HATTINGH: Do you recall whether any photos were shown to you of possible suspects before you departed for the area?

MR DE KOCK: I don't have an independent recollection of that either. However, I would foresee that this would have happened because the briefing which was given to us was conducted by the Witbank Security Branch.

MR HATTINGH: And there in the offices of the Security Branch of Germiston, did they have any photo albums of persons who were suspected of having been involved in terrorist activities?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, they had such capacity.

MR HATTINGH: Now you had a specific address to which you would have departed, can you recall the number today, or would somebody have pointed out the place to you?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I cannot recall the number, but I would accept that this was the number which was given here in the other reports. What did happen was that the address was provided by the Witbank Security Branch. They undertook tapping at an address in Witbank in the black residential area, from which calls came from the Germiston area and Vosloorus and by means of the number which they picked up, the address was determined.

MR HATTINGH: And who showed you where to go?

MR DE KOCK: The Germiston Security Branch members that accompanied us and who were quite familiar with the area and knew the streets, they accompanied us to this address. In other words, they showed the address to us in that vicinity.

MR HATTINGH: And it was daytime when you went to the house, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Later we will deal more thoroughly with the time, but could you estimate for us whether or not it was in the morning or in the afternoon when you went there?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I believe if my recollection serves me correctly, that it was in the middle of the morning, of the afternoon.

MR HATTINGH: And was there any unrest in the Vosloorus area at the time of this incident?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, it was quite serious, to the extent that the Vosloorus area as well as surrounding areas were regarded as liberated areas.

MR HATTINGH: And was this one of the reasons why you regarded it as necessary to enlist the assistance of the Task Force?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, we went with quite a large Force, because aside from the MK members we could also have expected other attacks.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. And what was your experience with regard to such house penetrations? Was it sufficient to take precautionary measures against attacks from within the particular house that you wanted to search?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, the ANC had a certain standard procedure, they would usually give the number of the house which was actually next-door to the house that they were using and I know that there were cases, particularly in Vryburg, where the address which they had provided was not in actual fact the address where they were residing, they were actually residing in the house on the opposite side of the street. So when the police penetrated the house of which they had the number, shots were fired at them from the back and there were policemen who were killed and injured. That was a standard precautionary measure against being trapped.

MR HATTINGH: And which counter-measures did you take in this regard?

MR DE KOCK: I took enough members along with us, so that with the deployment of the penetration of the house which is done by the Task Force, we would surround the house and then the additional members, among others the askaris, would then give us coverage from the outside parameters. So you had two groups, one looking in and one looking out.

MR HATTINGH: Is that how you planned the operation with this house?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Tell the Committee what took place when you arrived at the house.

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, the minibus in which I was travelling contained me and perhaps another member, I think one of my members drove the vehicle, and there were also Task Force members from the Special Task Force, who would undertake the house penetration. My group would then strike the house, so to speak.

Upon the arrival at this house and the address which was pointed out to us, a vehicle drove away from the front gate of this house and I gave the driver the instruction to follow this vehicle and the vehicle which followed me was instructed to strike the house.

MR HATTINGH: Did you have radio communication?

MR DE KOCK: Yes. I then opened the sliding door of the kombi and leaned out and shot out the left back tyre with the R5.

MR HATTINGH: Did the vehicle come to a standstill?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: How far away was this from the house that you were supposed to penetrate?

MR DE KOCK: I would say approximately 30 to 40 meters.

MR HATTINGH: So it wasn't very far away?

MR DE KOCK: No, it wasn't.

MR HATTINGH: And you say that the driver of the vehicle was detained.

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know what happened to him later?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, he along with a number of other persons who were in the vicinity of this house in this street but did not reside there or have any business there or any people to visit there, all these persons were collected and detained. And as far as I can recall 11 to 12 of them were detained under emergency regulations for further interrogation and possible identification or clearance, in order to determine whether or not they were not there as collaborators.

MR HATTINGH: And do you know whether the driver of the vehicle was one of these persons who was further detained?

MR DE KOCK: No, but I assume that he would have been.

MR HATTINGH: After this vehicle was stopped and the person was detained, what did you do then, Mr de Kock?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, we then moved back. Myself and the group that were with me went back to the house that was pointed out to us.

MR HATTINGH: May I just interpose here before we continue. Can you recall which members from Vlakplaas were all involved in this operation?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, that would be impossible.

MR HATTINGH: Could you recall some of their names?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, amongst others the persons who applied here and of the Task Force members I can recall two persons, one was a Capt Louw and the other was W/O Floors de Jongh.

MR HATTINGH: And the other Security Police members?

MR DE KOCK: I recall a Lt Lotz and a W/O van Dyk, I recall him specifically.

MR HATTINGH: This was not Paul van Dyk from Vlakplaas?

MR DE KOCK: No, he was from Germiston Security Branch, this van Dyk. And then from the Witbank Security Branch I have a recollection that Capt Rorich who was the Commanding Officer of the Security Branch at Witbank, had briefed us at the Germiston Security Branch, but I cannot place him at the scene during the shooting and the rest. There were two other members from the Witbank Security Branch who were at the scene, I cannot recall their names however.

MR HATTINGH: And the askaris who came along with you?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I cannot recall any names, but it was quite a group.

MR HATTINGH: You then returned to the house with this group who was in your vehicle, and what happened then?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, when we entered the premises one of the members, I cannot recall who, informed me that they had shot a person who had tried to run away from the house, when we drove past the house and were pursuing this other vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: Can you recall whether you heard that shot or shots?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, I was firing my own shots and it was, in that limited space of the vehicle it would have been impossible to hear any other shots.

MR HATTINGH: The report was made to you, and did then find a person who was injured there?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, when I met the person he was already on the front side of the house, from where he ran away in other words. I did not visit the scene where he lay.

MR HATTINGH: Can you recall who brought him to the front, around the front of the house to the front garden?

MR DE KOCK: No, I cannot. I do know that I spoke to Mr Flores and he told me that he fired at the person and that he had struck the person. W/O van Dyk however later came to tell me that he shot the person.

MR HATTINGH: If you say "thereafter", how long thereafter?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I would say it was just a few minutes afterwards, because Mr van Dyk disputed this and said that he shot the person.

MR HATTINGH: Could you see that the person was injured?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, he had a wound to his leg, I cannot recall which leg, but he had an injury to his leg and the bullet entered from the back of his leg. I did not see an exit wound if I can recall correctly. And the Task Force members, there were some of them who were trained paramedics and I asked some of them to apply a tourniquet and to strap the leg in and that they had to give him intravenous blood, which they then did.

MR HATTINGH: Where was this person when this was done, Mr de Kock?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, as far as I can recall he was in the front garden of this house which we had penetrated.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, and was an intravenous drip put on him and what happened to the man then?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, he remained lying down there in the garden. There were guards put with him. By nature of the situation the members had to watch him.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, but what happened afterwards?

MR DE KOCK: And after he was there, Chairperson, we then penetrated the house and searched the house and I gave instructions that this house be searched thoroughly and if it was necessary and they could not do otherwise than to damage it during this search, then they just had to report all this damage because I wanted all equipment, explosives or possible addresses or weapons cache stockpile points, I wanted all that information ...(intervention)

MR HATTINGH: Is that what you suspected you would find there? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson. And they then continued to search the house, so much so that there was much damage done to some of the things in the house and we carried some of the things out of the house and put it on the lawn and I went so far as to tell the Task Force members to remove the laminating from the doors of the house because it is made out of compressed wood, even to remove those laminated slabs to see if there were any plans hidden in there. I wanted to go as far as having the floors and the garden dug up if it was necessary.

MR HATTINGH: Did you find anything?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, W/O de Jongh called me and in the bathroom of this house we found a Makarov pistol of Russian origin with a magazine and there was also a handgrenade.

MR HATTINGH: Very well, Mr de Kock. With your years of experience you have a thorough knowledge of Eastern Block firearms.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, you could probably mislead me with items such as diamonds or painting, I am not an expert there, but with weapons not you or not anybody else will try and beat about the bush with me.

MR HATTINGH: Was it a Makarov that you found there?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, it was a brand new, brand spanking new firearm and it was Makarov 9mm short barrel.

MR HATTINGH: And was ammunition found for this particular weapon?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, I have a recollection of one magazine that was loaded with ammunition because I was present when this weapon was secured.

MR HATTINGH: Mr de Kock, this morning before the Commission and the proceedings commenced, a document was handed to us and I gave it to you to read and comment on it and a further statement from one, Karel van Dyk, which appears in Exhibit B on page 3, where he says that a paper bag with arms - he received a paper bag with arms and that the pistol was covered in a cloth but later when he checked the pistol he found that it was an FEG pistol and not a Makarov pistol as he thought and that the two were quite similar in appearance. What do you say about that?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, it is perjury in its purest form, that is not so. I was personally present when W/O de Jongh handled the weapon in order to secure the weapon, and I have a clear recollection that we found the weapon in a particular place in the bathroom and it was a Makarov and nothing else.

MR HATTINGH: Very well, while we are dealing with this, maybe we should deal with other relevant factors. Later you were asked to make a statement with regard to this incident, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And the statement, did you write it yourself or was it written down for you?

MR DE KOCK: Was this in regard to the inquest?

MR HATTINGH: The post-mortem inquest.

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, I never wrote out a statement. I have now signed a statement here, I could not even recall that I made any statement there.

MR HATTINGH: Very well, we shall arrive at that, but let's just deal with the Makarov part of this incident. Was it ever asked of you to sign a statement or to make a statement to the extent that an FEG pistol was found in this house?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, Lt Lotz who also worked or was in control of the ANC Desk at Germiston, at that Security Branch, came to see me and wanted an independent statement from me with regard to this particular Makarov and he wanted me to sign a statement that a pistol of foreign origin, which was not even in working order, that I had to say that this was the firearm that was found there.

MR HATTINGH: And the pistol that you had to identify, did he show this pistol to you as the one that was found there?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Did you handle it?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, one could not even cock this firearm and the working parts would not work on this firearm.

MR HATTINGH: Did you try to determine whether this pistol's firing chamber was suitable for firing Makarov ammunition?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, I later told Lotz. And what irritated me was the fact that he thought that I must believe that it is this weapon, and I went and I took a Makarov round and I told him "You try and fit this into this firearm" and the Makarov round did not fit, it did not even want to go in.

MR HATTINGH: And you were not prepared to make such a statement?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, I refused.

MR HATTINGH: And the Makarov that was found was in a very good condition?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, it was in exceptional condition.

MR HATTINGH: Was it practice for members of the Security Police to collect mementoes, specifically with regard to Eastern Block firearms?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, this did happen. There are many of them who legally went and registered these firearms in their names and obtained licences.

MR HATTINGH: Was this a wanted item amongst police officers?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, personally the Makarov had no value for me because it was of ordinary velocity and it was not really practical.

MR HATTINGH: Very well then. Mr de Kock, you have earlier said that you cannot recall that you did make any statement eventually. This morning a statement was shown to you that was signed by you and this appears in Exhibit C, from page 11, the statement starts on page 11 and the attesting and signature of it appears on page 13. Is that your handwriting?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, it is.

MR HATTINGH: Did you before today have an independent recollection that you had made this statement?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, I cannot even recall this statement. Well up to the point that this statement was shown to me, I believed that I did not make any statement at all.

MR HATTINGH: We will deal with the contents thereof later. Can I refer you to paragraph 4, there you've described the firearm which was found in this house as a Makarov pistol.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: And not this other type of pistol.

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: We shall return to this statement later. You say that in the house the Makarov pistol, magazine and rounds and a handgrenade was found, can you recall what else was found in the house?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, when I saw the statement it did jog my memory. As far as I know there was a smallish boltcutter found, or something similar. I don't have an independent recollection of what else was found there but there were this thick plastic gloves that one would use while working with chemicals or working in the garden. Somewhere I have a recollection of that.

MR HATTINGH: After these items were found in the house, what did you do then?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, we did not find any other items, I did not also have any other information which could give me tangible evidence, like a chart for any weapons cache point.

MR HATTINGH: Did you find any other persons in the house?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, the house was empty.

MR HATTINGH: What did you do then?

MR DE KOCK: I then decided, Chairperson, that in order to obtain information and to prevent further bomb explosions, that I will interrogate this injured person and if my memory serves correctly, and I do believe that I am correct, I asked the Task Force to apply a second intravenous feeding to this injured person, but not to open it.

There was a drive-up truck there, this is a type of a 5-ton truck that one uses for the transportation of troops and members of the Force, as it was practice during that time. Then I loaded this person into the truck and I tied his hands to the two sides.

One has a seating system on either side where the troops can sit and I cuffed his hands to the welded bars which served as the legs for these seats and I found a cloth in the house and I wet this cloth ...(intervention)

MR HATTINGH: What type of fabric was it, can you recall?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I am not certain, I cannot recall the colour, but it was a thickish cloth.

MR HATTINGH: What was the texture like, fine or coarse?

MR DE KOCK: It was course, and if one wets it less air would come through. And I then was assisted by a member of the Witbank Security Branch, I can however not recall his name, I can give you a description of what he looks like, and also by W/O van Dyk, and then we closed the door to this truck ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Which van Dyk is this?

MR DE KOCK: It's the one from the Germiston Security Branch, Karel van Dyk, Chairperson.

And I then sat on the chest of this MK member and I closed his mouth with this wet cloth ...(intervention)

MR HATTINGH: Only his mouth or his nose as well?

MR DE KOCK: No, it was only over his mouth. And as far as I can recall the person from the Germiston Security Branch squeezed his nose shut ...(intervention)

MR HATTINGH: With his bare hand?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson. ... and we started smothering him.

MR HATTINGH: Did he offer any resistance?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, he was injured in his leg, he couldn't use his leg and his hands were cuffed on both sides of him to the legs of the seats in the truck and I sat on his chest.

MR HATTINGH: May I refer you to Exhibit A, the statement from Doctor Holloway, which is attached to this, paragraph 3 he says

"The lineal chafe marks on his wrists could have been made by rope or cuffs ..."

MR DE KOCK: It was cuffs.

MR HATTINGH: He was cuffed with handcuffs.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson. This is the first time I see this statement.

MR HATTINGH: It was only handed to us when the Committee walked in. And then he says

"Lineal chafe marks on the right thigh could have been caused by a rope or a tourniquet fastened around the leg to stop the bleeding."

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson. And then W/O Karel van Dyk took notes of what this person said to us.

MR HATTINGH: And for how long did you continue with this questioning and the torturing which accompanied it?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, it was between 15 and 20 minutes, and I depend on a vague recollection, but this is my idea of it. It was not easy for him by nature of the situation, I believe that he endured pain.

MR HATTINGH: Did he give any information?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, he gave us between four and five addresses with numbers of houses. In the one instance he mentioned that this is where the weapons and explosives would be found. And I had these addresses followed up. I and W/O van Dyk from Germiston, and members of the Special Task Force, then went and we departed. I know I took some of my members along with me, and I'm not mistaken there was a group of askaris with as well for the possible identification of persons as we moved through.

And a member of the public who we rounded up there at the scene, I asked him if he knew where this address was, he said "Yes", I told him "Climb into the minibus", he didn't have a choice. The reason why I took him along was to show these addresses to us in order to save time, but in the black residential areas many of the names of the streets, the name boards were removed and I did not want to work according to a chart.

MR HATTINGH: Before you continue, may I just hear from you, you say you had these addresses checked and now you are saying that you and your group went to one address, did you delegate anybody else to go to any other addresses?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, the persons doing this penetration was myself and my group, the other group had to remain with this person because of the condition in the black residential areas and we wanted to have enough of our people around if a crown would congregate there.

MR HATTINGH: So you left from the scene where the deceased was.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Was the person still alive when you left there?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, definitely.

MR HATTINGH: Did you give any instructions to the persons remaining behind, to continue the interrogation?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did you tell them not to?

MR DE KOCK: No, I did not tell them not to, but I just did not give any instructions for them to do any interrogation.

MR HATTINGH: When you arrived at the other address, what did you find there?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, the first address where we arrived at, the Task Force penetrated the house, not in the main bedroom but in one of the smaller bedrooms according to my memory and as I described it here, I found these items here. There were indeed handgrenades if I recall correctly, and up to today I have a recollection that we found this amount of explosives, demolition charges and an AK47. I may be incorrect. Because of the total of other scenes that we had visited, I might be confusing this, but I do have a recollection that we did find these demolition charges there. And I then ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when he says "We found these articles", is he looking at paragraph 6 at page 12 of Exhibit C?

MR HATTINGH: No, Mr Chairman.

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, I'm on page 4 of my application.

MR LAX: So that's the last sentence of the first paragraph you're referring to on that page?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, it is the last four lines, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Now there you mention 2 SPM limpet mines.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: How clear is your recollection about this?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, my recollection is quite clear because I say this because the two cardboard tubes which were sealed with a type of water resistant substance, it was a cherry coloured substance, I found this with the two limpet mines.

MR HATTINGH: The problem that we have, Mr de Kock, in the later statement which you made, and I will show this to you on page 12, paragraph 6 thereof, no mention is made of limpet mines.

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I won't dispute this whole thing but because of the volume of other incidents I may be confused, but I would go into my grave and know that these things were there. I will not dispute it here.

MR HATTINGH: Mr de Kock, was your unit involved in other similar house penetrations in so-called black residential areas?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, many.

MR HATTINGH: Where houses were searched and weapons were found?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: So do you say that it is possible that you may be mistaken in this regard?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: But what you do recall is that arms and explosives and equipment was found in the house that this person supplied the address of?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson. We however did not find any persons in this house, Chairperson, and we then continued checking the other addresses which were given to us and we penetrated these premises and we did not find anything there and no persons were found there either.

MR HATTINGH: Did you then return to the initial scene where the deceased had been shot?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And when you arrived there was he still at the scene?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, yes, he was still in the truck.

MR HATTINGH: Was he still alive or was he dead?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, it was reported to me, and I cannot recall whom it was, that this person had died.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see if this was the case?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, I went and had a look and it was indeed so and among others, I then removed the intravenous feeding.

MR HATTINGH: Speaking of this, do you have any training and experience in the application of intravenous feeding?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, during my service period in Ovamboland, I would not say hundreds but I applied many of these devices as well as the application of sosegrim(?) which is a substance similar to morphine I think, I think it's a derivative of morphine. I also had training with 5 Recce Commando, as well as a month's training with them, and I know how to set up and apply these devices.

MR HATTINGH: You say you removed it, what happened to the deceased then?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, he remained in the truck.

MR HATTINGH: Was he taken away, and to do you recall by whom?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, what had indeed happened was that the Germiston Security Branch contacted the Detective Branch and a Lieutenant or a Captain arrived there along with two other members of the Detective Branch and I made a short report to them that we had shot this person, that he had been an ANC terrorist and that we could not get him to hospital in time - the language was ambiguous, and that he died of his shot wound.

MR HATTINGH: Very well.

MR DE KOCK: I did not inform them that we had tortured this person in any manner.

MR HATTINGH: Did you have any other dealings with the further course of the investigation into his death, or anything in connection with that?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, the Germiston Security Branch continued with their investigation and kept their files up to date. And as I have said to you now, I only heard here this morning that I made this statement and it was not with the same Detective, because I don't even know who took the statement from me.

MR HATTINGH: It is apparently Lotz, it would appear it was Lt Lotz. - the attestation of it in any event.

MR DE KOCK: Lotz never sat next to me and took a statement from me, it could be a statement that was harmonised like the others and put before us to sign, but Lotz never sat next to me and wrote out a statement, I did not even write out a statement.

MR HATTINGH: Very well, let us deal with the statement, you don't have a copy of it so we shall use mine. In paragraph 3 thereof, on page 11 of Exhibit C you say

"During the cordoning off of the particular house, a black man appeared in the front door of the house and ran away around the house in a southerly direction."

Did you see something like that?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, I was busy with the car at which I shot and it would probably have been a report that was made to me, but I did not see something like this. And as I said, I never drew up such a statement. ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR HATTINGH: And then it reads further

"And I heard that someone shouted at this person in Afrikaans and English, to stand still and briefly afterwards I heard four shots."

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, we are a counter-terrorist unit, you don't warn a terrorist before you shoot him.

MR HATTINGH: And you also did not hear this warning shouted in Afrikaans and English?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And you were approximately 30 to 40 meters away from there at that stage?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson. I would just like to mention, this might diverge a bit, but I read the victim's statement or the next-of-kin of the victim, and reference is made to a Lt Loots. That Loots is not Loots, that's Lotz. I just wanted to point that out, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And then in paragraph 5 you say you received a report about a black man that was injured and you say

"I informed the members to keep the black man under observation because I regard the place where the shooting incident had taken place, as unsafe."

Did you do this or did you say this?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, we already had an outer circle which - in other words, it was a situation where the outer circle were with their backs to the inner circle and this would have been in an adjacent street.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. Then you say

"Because of information which we had, it was necessary to search the houses in the surrounding area for terrorists and arms."

Did this happen?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, we did not search any of the houses next-door or opposite. The askaris did move around there to see if they could see any familiar faces or do identifications.

MR HATTINGH: And you say in paragraph 6

"During this search ... (in other words, the searching of the houses in the immediate vicinity) ... the equipment was found."

The equipment which you just mentioned in your evidence, namely the AK47 firearm, the AK magazines, the rounds, the handgrenades and the detonators and so forth. Were these found in one of the directly surrounding houses? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, because we had to left in minibuses and I would not have had my members walk in groups of two or three, where they could be surrounded by very large crowds.

MR HATTINGH: And in paragraph 7 you say

"At approximately 13H30 ...'

...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you go on, in paragraph 6 you did give an address of where the weapons were found, which was not in the same street.

MR HATTINGH: That is correct, yes, Mr Chairman.

In paragraph 7 you say -

"At approximately 13H30, after the search was done, I declared the area safe and gave instructions that the wounded man receive emergency treatment there."

Did you say this?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, two trained medical orderlies attached to the Task Force Pretoria, gave this man emergency treatment.

MR HATTINGH: This was done, but this was not done at this stage.

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, no, it was just after he was shot.

MR HATTINGH: Then in paragraph 8

"After emergency treatment was given to this man, they reported to me that this man had lost lots of blood because of this wound and I gave instructions that this man be placed on a stretcher and be taken to Bembu Street, approximately 60 metres away. I gave instructions that the wounded black man be made as comfortable as possible in a police minibus, upon which he was taken to Natalspruit Hospital by Lt C J Lotz, attached to the Security Branch Germiston."

Is any of that true?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, this was not true for several reasons. We did not drive around with stretchers to carry around terrorists because we did not know whether we would find anybody and the Task Force also did not drive around with stretchers. And furthermore, we would not have taken him to Natalspruit Hospital, but probably to one of the hospitals in Pretoria or Johannesburg. If we took him to Natalspruit he would once again be amongst his people and one could not guard him there.

MR HATTINGH: And then you say later you heard that the black man upon his arrival, was certified as dead.

MR DE KOCK: He may have bee certified dead, Chairperson, but I can assure you that he died at the scene.

MR HATTINGH: And in paragraph 9 you say

"Up to this stage the black man could not be identified, the only particulars which were known about him was his MK name and this was Valdez, and that he had received military training under the banner of the African National Congress in Angola."

Did you have this information?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I did not have his names, but one our askaris, and I'm trying, I will give his surname to you, it was Lucky - I will get to his surname, but he said that this was MK Valdez, but we didn't have a name, I didn't have a name or surname for him.

MR HATTINGH: And then furthermore

"From the investigation, it appeared that the black man was part of a group of terrorists who were responsible for the Witbank motor vehicle explosion on the 24.10.1998, at 08H14, where two black men were killed and 42 persons were injured."

And the Witbank number is given.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, we were completely and thoroughly informed by Witbank's Security men, and I have this recollection that Capt Rorich gave us this information because it was his area, and this is most probably true.

MR HATTINGH: And then the penultimate paragraph

"I found that W/O van Dyk, attached to the Security Branch Germiston, and Sgt L W J Flores, attached to the Security Head Office Pretoria, fired one shot and three shots on the person running away."

Is this true?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, the person who reported to me that he had fired shots was Sgt Flores, but shortly following on the report which Flores gave to me, van Dyk came to me and told me that he shot the person.

MR HATTINGH: Did any of them mention any number of shots which were fired at this person?

MR DE KOCK: Flores mentioned that he had fired one shot at this person, that he had struck him in the leg, van Dyk mentioned more shots, but I cannot recall how many he mentioned. But van Dyk's situation at that stage was - and I will tell you what happened here, it's that he wanted the credit that a terrorist was shot and apprehended here because the moment when it appeared that MK Valdez was dead, van Dyk came to me and said but he did not shoot him. So it's one of those cases.

MR HATTINGH: I see that in this paragraph reference is made to Sgt L W J Flores, attached to Security Head Office, Pretoria, is this a correct description of his position at that stage?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Was Vlakplaas part of head office?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Vlakplaas was the base where we worked from but we were attached directly to Security Head Office.

MR HATTINGH: But would it have been a problem to refer to Vlakplaas, should people want to know at that stage what is Vlakplaas? Was Vlakplaas known at that stage?

MR DE KOCK: No, it was known to certain members of the Security Branch, but if some of the members gave evidence, they stated that they were based at head office, not at Vlakplaas.

MR HATTINGH: Mr de Kock, this morning I showed the statement to you which Mr Flores made and the one of van Dyk, it would appear as if the same person was responsible for the use of language in this statement.

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, my use of Afrikaans might be old-fashioned as it was when I grew up and then it is not what was used during that time that was normal usage.

MR HATTINGH: After we've dealt with contents of your statement, would you describe it as a cover-up operation?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, these statements were harmonised in such a manner that the court came to another finding in our favour and in the favour of the State, and this is a different finding to what would have been made if we told what exactly had happened here.

MR HATTINGH: And such a favourable finding was made in the court in the post-mortem inquest which was held, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is what I saw this morning. I never even made any enquiries about the investigation, I never heard about this aspect whatsoever.

MR HATTINGH: You cannot recall this statement, but if such a cover-up statement, if I may put it as such, was put before you in March 1989, would you have signed it?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Was this a foreign phenomenon amongst you, that such cover-up operations be executed?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, this was standard procedure.

MR HATTINGH: And the Committee has many-a-time heard of this course of action?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the signature disputed?

MR HATTINGH: No, Chairperson.

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: The political objective which you put forward for your application is what, Mr de Kock, with regard to this incident?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, it was the prevention and combating of terrorism. In this regard persons were sought who had already been trained abroad militarily, with the objective to kill and also in this regard, to prevent that other premises, amongst others as it was mentioned, milk bars where only children go, where they would once again be blown up. I took these steps knowing that it was not right, but that I would strangle this information and these explosives and these weapons out of this man at whatever cost.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. You did not know MK Valdez before this?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: No personal ill-feelings or feelings of malice towards this person?

MR DE KOCK: No, none whatsoever, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You also did not gain personally from this operation?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know, Mr de Kock - you say you did not have anything further to do with this matter, do you know what happened to the body of the deceased in the end?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, I don't know who handled the person or where this person was buried.

MR HATTINGH: Were you ever informed about any inquest that was held?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You were also not asked to be present to identify your statement or anything in that regard?

MR DE KOCK: No, not at all, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the arrangement, we will now adjourn the matter, there will be no further questioning, no cross-examination until the various investigations have been completed and until everyone else is ready to continue. We have no fixed date as yet. I understand from the attitude of all of you, when we were discussing this matter, that you were all as anxious as we are to complete it and to finalise it, and I will ask the Evidence Leader to make every effort if any date should become available, to communicate with you, gentlemen, so that we can make arrangements.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, should any further or new information emerge as a result of the further investigations, then obviously I may have to ask you for leave to deal with that in the evidence-in-chief before cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, quite clearly you have only led the evidence you have, on the basis of what is before us at the present time.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything further anyone else wishes to say?

We now adjourn till tomorrow morning - or Thursday? Thursday.

MS LOCKHAT: Thursday, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What time? Nine thirty, gentlemen? I've warned you that I may be a little late on Friday, if we're still going on, but we'll now adjourn till nine thirty on Thursday morning.

MS LOCKHAT: All rise.

MK VALDEZ MATTER ADJOURNED TO A DATE TO BE ARRANGED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS